EK pilots top 5 or 6 highest paid in the world

[Greensky]

Read this today...almost chocked on my coffee. Quite a long read but the punchline is at the end.

Green...out.

ps: I dídn't know our Engineers were the highest paid in the world!! :confused:
NOT...:ugh:


The Dubai connection

By Alistair Osborne, The Times Newspapers Limited 2008
Published: May 07, 2008, 00:36

The rise of Emirates airline and of Dubai are, in many ways, the same story. "Emirates' future = Dubai's future" was the first entry on Shaikh Ahmad Bin Saeed Al Maktoum's full-year results slideshow last week.
The airline's chairman and chief executive has a point. The Emirates group had just reported a Dh5 billion net profit - despite the rocketing oil price.
Just as telling is its contribution to the Dubai economy - $12.8 billion or almost a quarter of GDP. Some $6.8 billion of that came indirectly - from the tourists the carrier brings to Dubai's glitzy hotels or the immigrant construction workers flown in to man the world's biggest crane collection.
Such symbiosis partly explains why Emirates has 20 years of unbroken profits, while rivals' results have bounced around like a plane in turbulence.

Emirates and Dubai have built each other. Never blessed with the oil riches of its neighbours, Dubai set out to build a diversified economy for when the black stuff runs out, founded on commerce, tourism and trade.
Launched in October 1985 with two ageing aircraft and $10 million of government backing, Emirates is the cornerstone of that strategy. Such interdependence has its drawbacks too, however. What happens to Emirates if the music stops. Then, having 182 planes on order with a list price of $58 billion, might look a touch hubristic.
Tim Clark is having none of it. President of Emirates, he is one of the two Brits - alongside vice-chairman Maurice Flanagan - who started the airline from scratch.
"People have been asking me that for years," he says. "I don't see the future as being any different to what happened in the past."

No bubble
For starters, he does not buy the Dubai bubble theory, even if GDP growth must eventually slow from the current 16 per cent.
"The building blocks of what Dubai is today are solid," he says. "Foreign investment is coming in in a big way. People are looking for a safe haven, having lost out on sub-prime and the credit crunch. Everybody's here - Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan. They go where the market is, where they sense blood.
"The government has set up a bourse, they have done everything to make sure Dubai is ready for business. Apart from problems finding accommodation and the traffic, everybody here enjoys being here. I've never seen a government facilitate business more than this government."
As the man who built the Emirates' network, Clark has other grounds for confidence. "How are we managing to grow our business when everybody else is reporting profit levels that have gone down or whose rate of growth has come off?" says Clark.
"It's because, strategically, we grew our network into areas that other carriers would not go or did not treat seriously - Africa, large parts of Asia. You go into these areas and you find yields are higher and demand is strong."
There are other factors too. "The aeroplanes we get we work extremely hard. Our unit costs - if you strip out fuel - do not grow at the same pace. We have also spent a lot of money on our brand." As, indirectly, has Dubai tourism.
Around this, Emirates has built its Dubai hub, that melting pot where east-west traffic meets north-south and few destinations are more than eight hours flying time away. Crucially it operates 24 hours a day. Emirates has capitalised, launching some curious routes - a direct service to Newcastle, for example, via which backpacking Geordies can transit to Australia.
One current obstacle is Dubai airport, which handled 36.5 million passengers last year and is as chocka as Heathrow. Not for long. A third terminal opens later this year and a fourth is already under construction. They will push capacity north of 75 million passengers.
That's not the half of it though. Handily, Shaikh Ahmad doubles up as the man responsible for the modestly titled Dubai World Central. This is a $33 billion project to build a new airport at Jebel Ali, with six runways and capacity for at least 120 million passengers a year.

Focus
Says Gary Chapman, president of group services at Emirates: "The only crime in Dubai is not thinking big. We have the benefit of a government that is focused on developing the infrastructure required. We don't have five years of planning permission. The government identifies the need for it and it's going to happen."
Unlike other airlines, Emirates is forced to import its labour, with its 35,000-plus staff drawn from 145 nationalities.
"Our costs are growing all the time unfortunately," says Clark. "Our engineers are the highest paid in the world. Our pilots are in the top five or six. We provide houses, we furnish the houses, we pay the bills. We take our pilots to work in chauffeur-driven cars. These are costs the legacy carriers in Europe don't face."

[kingpost]

Wow, TC believes what he's told - it was true in the early days of starting.

We're suppose to be in the top 20, that means we're number 19.

[wastafarian]

The only crime in Dubai is not thinking big

oh god what crap. how about biger pay? they are so full of themseves. :rolleyes:

[Orangewing]

Hmmm. Top 5 or 6 best paid,eh? Doesn't bode well for the pay review, especially after that lot down the back only got 4%...:ouch:

[Raas767]

I just heard that your captains got a 25000 dollar profit sharing check last month.
If that's true you certainly are among the highest paid in the world even though you live in a blast furnace.
Anybody want to know what my profit sharing check was? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?
320 dollars. Yep. Came in handy at the boozer.
You guys at EK complain too much.

[Bredrin]

In other parts of the world where you get a similar net salary the employer has to pay almost double to cover the taxes.....hmmm....I guess there are some expenses they do not have to worry about.

[donpizmeov]

Well don't be shy Raas767, come on over and enjoy the lifestyle. If its such a good deal why would you be wasting your time in Florida?:ugh:
Dont you love it when someone from the other side of the world, after hearing stories from some friend of a friend, tells ya how things are!!!!

Don

[PITA]

I'm with ya Don

And I'm a Florida boy as well.

[powerstall]

so where did get his statistics again??? :ugh:

[7x7]

If you want some idea of the dream world top management live in, look here http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=iU2BF5IJeQU and disregard the funny English subtitles. Apparently, one recently assured a colleague that they are utterly swamped with suitable pilot applicants, there is no pilot wastage nor training problem, and everything is just hunky dorey.

[max AB]

Now that was funny, seriously funny..

The profit share has for a long time now been used in place of a pay rise. TCK in one of his motivating speeches said it "makes good business sense to keep the sallaries low and award a good profit share during the good years than to pay higher sallaries that effect the bottom line during the bad years" In other words let the employees carry the pain during the bad years... Given that this was a good year, you can guess the rest.

[Cyberbird]

.... :confused: can't belive our smart & cosmopolitian Sheikhy-Boy believes in this (his own) bla-di-bla propaganda-blur - that s WAY OFF reality !!!:bored:

[Ghostflyer]

From another thread:

A friend and I were discussing the numbers last week and they make interesting reading, the exchange rate is the big killer and the 'cost neutral' scam; otherwise we would be doing pretty well. The totals are as follows, there are no allowances/per diem so to speak of.

In 2000 a starting Captain made (including pension 12%):
315840 AED Salary and pension
21692 Profit Share (4 weeks)
337532 Total = $92,000 or 59,000GBP (1.55 rate)

In 2008 the same guy got:
399840 AED Salary and pension
96115 Profit Share (14 weeks)
36000 Flying Pay (800hrs/year)
531955 Total

The 'cost neutral' cost 20% credit so this factored for the same work in 2000 (In 2000 at the current workrate we would have had serious O/T):
425564 AED = $116,000 = 58,000GBP (2.0 rate)

If you worked on conservative average inflation of 8% since 2000, the dollar amount to match 2000's salary would be:
$170,000, in comparison the starting guy actually got $145,000 for 20% more work. So even with the bumper profit share, if you came from a dollar based currency, the decline over that period was 17% salary for 20% more work, or from GBP neraly 30%.

So whilst I am delighted to take the profit share, I still would have preferred our base terms and conditions to have returned to 2000 levels rather than the one off bonus which will probably not be repeated. Other sectors have had raises of 70% this year or more (including ATC) to try and make the package truly competitive at todays prices. That is why the old timers are cynical; they know that the 14 weeks has been generated by increasing their productivity and pay lagging inflation over the last few years.

Actual EK 777 Base Salary, without pension added in is 357,000AED.

In comparison starting Captain Salaries USD/HR based on the links below:


Cathay $198
Virgin $190
United $176
Delta $175
Dragon $163
.
.
(EK with Profit Share $157)
BA Short Haul $142
.
.
Emirates (Calculated like all the others) $122

http://askcaptainlim.com/content/category/8/33/78/

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy.html

That didn't include the EK Profit share but then again, it doesn't include 13 month salaries, profit shares or flying pay, per diem etc etc etc for the other carriers.

If you want to get into that game, you realise where the profit share came from. Just one example, an EK pilot gets $12/hr, VS $52/hr. At 800hrs/yr: EK=$9600, VS=$41600, guess what, the difference is bigger than the EK profit share.

The next thing to be raised will be the tax argument. All I'd say is that it is valid, but so is the argument that you can live where ever you want if you work for say BA/VS. You don't have to live in London or NYC and pay those prices, working for EK there is no choice and living in Dubai is now pretty much eroding many of the tax free gains. If you are lucky with 'free' accommodation, it is a definite plus, if you end up in 'temporary' accommodation in some of the places being offered now a big minus. If you can't stand it and move out, deduct $3k/month from your salary for the cost of your housing over and above your allowance.

So what does all the statistical bunk mean. With the bumper profit share EK came to the table this year but I'll take a bet we don't get the same profit share next year. I'll take a bet we don't match inflation in the medium term. EK is not the worst job in the world but whilst I am still delighted to have got the cash I do not understand why the senior managers feel they can't tell the truth. If it really was such a good deal, the facts would stand alone.

If you join EK based on our profit share, as the financiers say "past performance is not a......." Prepare to be disappointed!

Ghost

[fractional]

The quote was: EK pilots top 5 or 6 highest paid in the world Now the question is how about them (Top Management)?

[kingoftheslipstream]

Ghostflyer

Thanks for your post - it's probably the best summary of the situation I've read so far. Well done.

I presume your handle refers to how y'all feel after our sweet new rosters with all the frickin' turnarounds in 'em... :\

[Dropp the Pilot]

I just tallied my last 12 month pay summaries form HR Direct and if I add to that total my profit share and the company contrubitions to the A fund I find I was paid 312,000 USD last year. That figure is cash in hand, not factored for tax environment, not "allowing for x". Cash. In hand.

I happen to think that's OK. I believe any thinking pilot on the planet would agree. Even with a shrunken dollar that still enabled me to live quite comfortably.

Hate to derail the spleen train but I could have made it worse by ending every other dang word with a flippin' apostrophe - and you now that's jes' tiresome, aint it?

[Not from here]

Not sure you where you work in EK just had a look at mine as you say 12 months +++ and including the Utilities allowance, Been here just over 10 years Captain did just over 800 hrs last 12 months and mine was $US204,000.
So either you are on some special pay rate or you are talking BS!

[pitoss]

Don't take me bad, but $312000.00 a year in EK only if you are in a management position. Having talked to TRE's recently, the highest I heard about was 60,000.00 Dhs a month. If we put 10% on the top of it we'll get to 66,000 X 12 = 792,000 + 105,000 bonus = 897,000 + A account (3,600 X12) = 940,200 = U$256,185.

Don't forget this is for a High end TRE, compared to a Line Captain in many other airlines as mentioned in a previous post. Also don't forget that we've got 14 weeks this year, but what about 2005, 2006, 2007... I wouldn't count on the 14 weeks every year, although I would welcome it:D

Maybe I'm missing something...

Pitoss

[theidler]

How can company contributions to the A fund be classified as Cash. In hand.?

You are also counting the accommodation allowance towards your Cash. In hand. Fair enough to include this for someone who bought into the Dubai property market 3-5 years ago but for someone joining EK now this allowance might just cover a one bedroom apartment with utilities in a good area.

Are you counting the education allowance towards your cash in hand? If so comparable education (state) in Europe/Oz/US etc is free of charge.

Over to you dropp.

By the way,

now = at this time
know = to have knowledge of something

[145qrh]

Think his $312000 was actually Dhs312000 :)

Makes more sense..

And no way can you count A fund as cash in hand .

[BusyB]

Ghostflyer,

They are not really fair comparisons without pointing out the tax rates.

For CX 17% plus tax on housing allowance which makes it higher.

BA 40% plus 5% NI.:bored:

Still think you should get a much greater payrise than seems to be the prophesied one.:(

[TangoUniform]

Theidler,
I agreed with everything you said, right up until you said education was free in the US/UK/OZ. When you are paying up to 50% in taxes, which in part goes to education, I would not consider it FREE by any means.

When one lives in one of the most expensive cities in the world, when the stated goal of management that EK will be the premier airline in the world, when everything here is supposed to be the biggest and or best......I would say that the pay should match the stated goals of those in charge. Fifth or sixth highest paid is pitiful in every respect. But I would say his estimate is way off. Maybe tenth highest. Even that's a stretch.

[kingpost]

Lets look at this realistically to see if EK make the top 5.

1. Between Gulf Air, Etihad and Qatar, EK is the lower paid of the 4 - That puts them at number 4 if the other 3 were the best paid in the world. Air Arabia is even catching up at a rapid rate!

2. An Air France FO earns more than an EK Capt and I'm sure they knock the socks off the other 4 - So they now stand at number 5.

3. Cathay, NCA, Easyjet, KLM, Ryanair, BA, Korean, Jade, Jet Airways, JAL, Dragon Air, Lufthansa....... earn more than EK

Where does that put them (there are others - USA carriers included), moving towards position 19 to make themselves attractive in the top 20.

What's that saying,"....keep......"

[fatbus]

Air Arabia more than EK if you do not include housing and education( which should not be used in this comparision)

[powerstall]

hmm.. maybe it's just a typo, or somebody not hearing him right.... or it's some mumbo jumbo he's mumbling that's why they heard him wrong.... :E

[Cyberbird]

3. Cathay, NCA, Easyjet, KLM, Ryanair, BA, Korean, Jade, Jet Airways, JAL, Dragon Air, Lufthansa....... earn more than EK
.... and the German Carriers LTU, CONDOR, even SWISS and SAS after re-structuring earnings is definitively better than that at EK ... we're in the middle to last third of the "First Class Airlines" - whcih have not "to hang in there in the gruelsome summer months" ...:{

[joe two]

2. An Air France FO earns more than an EK Capt and I'm sure they knock the socks off the other 4 - So they now stand at number 5.

Well ?
Really ?

I would be very surprised if an Air France F/O earns more than an EK capt

Just a rough guess : I think an EK capt gets about 8000 Euro monthly
and an Air France F/O about half of that, a junior a bit below the 4000 and a senior somewhat above the 4000 Euro monthly

[ReallyAnnoyed]

I have no idea whether the figures are accurate, but the net pay according to PPJN leaves the EK captains trailing the senior FOs at AF.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=0cuy6fnsvbnhxfmuqb5hm9z8vgpmat6ytpkmsx3awehe hnwvps2

[7x7]

Wasn't it Dr Goebbles who said something along the lines of: "The bigger the lie, if you say it often enough, becomes accepted as the truth." They've been in cloud cooko land - and denial - for years now. It will be interesting to see how many of the people who had lunch at Rydges over the last few days 'walk the walk', even if the rumoured HUGE pay rise comes in as everyone hopes it will.

Basings, basings, basings. Eventually, they're going to happen. Blind Freddie can tell you that. So why in the world not now, when it might mean EK will keep some of its best and brightest, rather than after many of them have gone because someone with a wide body ego can't face facts?

[Ghostflyer]

Joetwo,

Expectation is the root of most evil, the rest comes from envy.

8000 Euros would be a Captain flying 800hrs/year at the 14 year point in EK. I would love to have the Air France pension, that is a serious wad.

I must admit when I joined EK I came for the cash and so did most people. Many even had 7/10 year plans that are disappearing off into the distance as the package degrades and that is why there are so many unhappy campers. The Nationals are fortunate enough to be in receipt of a large additional 'local allowance' that boosts their pay to correct for inflation. They also get a 2%/year pension deal from the government. If the expats were on that package, most would sign on for life with EK because their entire salary would be disposable and they would live like kings........uh sorry I just woke up.

[pitoss]

The funniest thing is to see the guys that said, not longer ago that it's a bonus!!! even if it is 100 Dhs I'll take it!!! - now considering it part of their salaries just to calm down their egos.

Pitoss

[ekslave]

EK Pilots are only in the top 5 or 6 of the THIRD WORLD AIRLINES.........

[gastounet]

Joetwo,

Correct for a long-haul F/O ...
But not for year 1 F/O flying the A320 ...
And this only if you take into account the monthly paid salary and not the full EK package ...
And also only true because of the weak US dollar.

G.

[disconnected]

Whether its true or not, that will not be the case over the next year.

From CNN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaDWBs14_Pg

With oil prices going up and absolutely everything you will buy being flown, shipped and trucked into the UAE the inflation is only just beginning. Oil has gone up at least 25% in the last few months. The goods in the shop today were negotiated when the transport costs reflected under $100 a barrel and most commodities were at least 20% cheaper.
Expect a 25% increase over the next 6 months alone.

The pay review at Emirates will give great insight into the viability of a move here. It will show how much the salary might decline over the next year in terms of purchasing power.

[Buford]

When is the salary review announced? I thought we'd have known by now. Why the big wait? :ugh:

[woodja51]

Not sure where we sit in the global pecking order but I have said this before and will say it again ref salary issues.

As a 5 year- line only- captain in the company for almost 9 years my last 12 months payslips came to about 820 000 dhs including every thing I get from company (accommodation/ERP ) etc. I could include the 12 % prov fund which after 9 years stands at about 160 000 USD (not enough to retire on but hey pays off the mortgage I have in Dubai (and yes I have bought here so am in front due to that opportunity by several 000's of dhs so very lucky)

So the point I make is that overall the financial returns from coming to EK - have been significant in my case. But you will all be different depending on your circumstances.

I would expect that with the 12 % basic rise announced today and the increase in other allowances next month, and 14 weeks PS I will push over a million dhs for the next 12 month period.

And I got a free 777 endorsement from them last year - and have flown just on 400 hours since July last year on the Boeing. (So not much overtime for me to add in at all) And I am a LINE captain...

So am I happy or not? - well I also went to Rydges plaza to see what Voz had to say and I can most certainly comfirm that 175KAUD plus a bit of super and a few other intangibles ( oh and less tax @ up to 42 cents in the dollar or so) is not going to be enough to make me give it up in a hurry to commute or live in Sydney for the privilege- and 1000 hours per annum too!
But think they will be great for the right guys to join up.

I Agree with all the inflation etc arguments but that is the reason the rental returns are over 10% net in DXB - if you can't beat them - join them!

Not trying to stick up for the claims about where we fit into the global pay scheme but personally I don't think the company are doing a bad job - at least in my case... oh ...and I am bouncing off 35 day recency the last three months due to extra leave they keep giving etc etc..

Just trying to balance the spleen venting arguments a little - hope they don't try to make me go to the office!!:O Woodj

[schismatic]

The pay review is now out.

All said about another 12%. Prices still rising here at alarming levels. Every trip to the supermarket reveals another product up by 10-30%. And thats only since the last rises at the beginning of the year.

Oil problem does not seem to be going away - $133 per barrel. Over 40% this year alone. And its not simply speculation - China and India are using more. $200 per barrel this year is firmly in the sights.

The knock on from this is that prices in the UAE will climb at a rate never witnessed before.

12% is going backwards. It could have been worse, I agree but that doesn't make it good.

Another year of salary attrition to look forward to. Only this time much worse than ever before.

[disconnected]

Fuel prices account for 36% of inflation in UAE economy

Economic and property analysts have been proposing measures to combat the rise in inflation, the most recent of these proposals was the call for the UAE Ministry of Economy to put out an index that would calculate the inflation rate in a move to arrest spiraling inflation.

This proposal is under study, and some sources have revealed that, in a move unprecedented in the world, a survey system will be established to measure the inflation rate in the country every four months.

This revelation says a lot about what is to come. Having to calculate inflation every 4 months indicates that its out of control and they will have to seriously watch it to avoid civil unrest from the lower paid.

This is not a good place to take up employment at the moment. Negotiated salaries will be outdated before the employee begins work.

Its going to be bad, real bad.....

[Wiley]

For those now predicting oil at $200 a barrel by the end of the year, see post #13, dated 5th April here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321237&highlight=barrel For those too lazy to click on the link: (I peredict) Oil at USD 150 a barrel by September 30th 2008.

The way things are going, it looks distressingly like I'm in there with a very good chance of being right.

Sadly, I think I'd almost be as safe in predicting the USD and the AUD will be at parity by Jan 1st 09. I heard today that a group of Australian pilots in Dubai are in the latter stages of planning for a "parity party" when it happens.

[disconnected]

The fallout from these figures will be massive. The price of oil doesn't double without serious pain.

Parity on the AUD - Sure. And then beyond. 1.20 is the revised prediction.

Pity we don't have a meaningful ERP system.