Brand new Bombers flown into the sea??? Myth or reality?

[denis555]

A friend of my fathers was a Sergeant Pilot on Lancasters during the latter part of WW2.

He told my father ( and me ) that after VJ day he was given an assignment to fly Lancs from southern England and over the sea, where he would bail out and be picked up by rescue craft. The lancs then flew on until they eventually fell into the sea and disappeared forever,

He maintained that these were brand new aircraft fresh from the factory and that the Air Minisitry did this because it was cheaper to keep on producing them ( and dumping them ) than break the contract..

He insisted that dozens of them were disposed of this way.

Surely it would have been easier to break them up on land and use the components ( or maybe this would lead to too many embarrassing questions ).

Is this a myth?

Did it ever happen?

Please let me know your views

[RETDPI]

Brand new Sunderlands were allegedly taxied out to sea and their sea cocks opened as one example of contracts being finished off and the products scrapped.
Coastal Command post war had to make do with war weary ex bomber Lancasters ( some with distinguished log books) whilst new ones were apparently destroyed after initial manufacturers' test flights.
Although this particular story seems a bit "stretched", in essence this type of wasteful "paperwork straightening" was common practice after the end of hostilities.

[denis555]

Wow - Sunderlamds as well - what a waste. You'd have thought they were worth re-selling as passenger transport for the post war years, Nice to have my fathers freinds story confirmed.

Please keep the info coming if you have any.

D:)

[Old Hairy]

Sunderlands do not have sea cocks:confused::confused:

At least the ones I flew for three years

[RETDPI]

Old Hairy,
I bow to your direct knowledge!
This was the term I recall being used by my late father ( Ex Halton Brat - RAF 1939-1954) but admittedly not a Sunderland man.
I wouldn't know.
The only Sunderland men I knew very well were Trevor Smith ( alas deceased) and Dennis Moreau - who had the unusual distinction of being a flying boat captain whose aircraft was once claimed as being "sunk" by an RN submarine on exercise -photo confirmed at Mountbatten in the wash-up (the Sunderland crew were fishing off of the wing at the time).

[S'land]

Having this happen to Lancasters is bad enough, but to Sunderlands! Heads should roll for this. If the organisers of such sacrilege are dead, their bodies should be dug up and made to suffer unspeakable damage.

Not that I'm biased or anything.

[henry crun]

I doubt all these stories of aircraft been disposed of in this manner.

At the end of WW2 UK was just about broke, and had a desperate shortage of raw materials of all descriptions, particularly metals.
Every thing that could be salvaged would have been sent to the scrap yards for recovery.

[Kitbag]

This is a bit of 'story from a bloke in a pub my uncle met once' and perhaps should be treated with a degree of caution. However during my time at Halton one of the Apprentice Wing instructors was ex FAA and he recounted the story that the carrier he was on in the Far East after VJ day had disposed of its aircraft simply by pushing them over the side. Remember that a lot of guys just wanted to get home by that stage of the conflict so I suspect that 'its a big company' syndrome may have had a bearing on the apparent vandalism.

[ZeBedie]

My Dad was on a carrier in the Pacific at the end of the war. Soon after VJ day, the ships stock of brand new, boxed engines was pushed over the side, along with most of the Seafires and Corsairs. He was told it was to keep the factories busy at home.

[canard68]

Slightly more recently when I was a young spotter I remember a Shackleton 3 Phase 3
departing Woodford on delivery and a couple of months later seeing it abandoned at Kemble? looking like it was about to be dismantled.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

:{:{:{

That's like watching then crush the brand new E-Type at the begining of The Italian Job.


And I can believe it too. I've seen pics of the boneyards in Arizona and all you can see is B17 tails - there must've been hundreds of them :(


And I think we've all seen footage of the Americans pushing Hueys off the side of carriers post Vietnam.

...did you notice the guy in the background patting his pockets and the thought bubble saying "Oh sh1t. My wallet")

[Dick Whittingham]

Late WW2 American carrier ops worked like this:

End of the day, aircraft were classified as OK, flying duds and non-flying duds.

Flying duds flown off to repair base.

Non-flying duds pushed over the side.

Dawn saw a new delivery for a full deckload as ops re-started.

Or so I was told, by a man I met in a pub.

Dick

[forget]

And I think we've all seen footage of the Americans pushing Hueys off the side of carriers post Vietnam.

I think that 'one-off' job was a case of needs must. It was a Significant Date and there was no space left for incoming helicopters - so space was made by - as you say.

[bjw824]

Hi ZB
This is true , but it was due to the terms of Lend-Lease, not to keep British factories busy, and was only applicable to U.S. manufacured a/c. All former U.S. equipment had to be returned, written-off or paid for. My Dad was also there and had many photos of brand new Corsairs, Avengers, Hellcats etc etc being hacked and rolled over the side. It was considered that they were not worth the cost of returning.
Re Lancasters and other British built WW2 bombers, I think that story is another legend.
I can clearly remember vast dumps of Stirlings and Halifaxs at York and High Ercall and I know for a fact that most of the Lancasters operated by the RCAF Squadrons were flown back to Canada. Whilst most Lancasters were scrapped post-war, many Lancasters were refurbished for export sales, i.e Argentina, France, Pakistan etc and many were converted to ASR and MR roles

[FAL]

My understanding too of the Lend-Lease aircraft - they were not ours to scrap and retain the proceeds, however small. Additionally, I think the British Pacific Fleet carriers needed the space to bring home POWs.

[Lower Hangar]

We had one of our Buccs literally roll ove the side of Ark Royal in the Caribbean ( circa mid 70's) - but it wasn't intentional - more a case of insufficient lashings. !!

[Old Hairy]

Sland,I agree with your remarks,but before apoplexy takes its toll:sad: Its definately not true. Ive just been thro the appendix to Chas Bowyers book on the Sunderland (Good read) which contains details on all the boats produced in a appendix,details of their demise and disposal all 710 and there are no details on any criminal sinking.
RETDP,thanks for that info,sadly there are very few of us left.anno domini.althought I am still in contact with my old F/Eng. 85 and still going strong.Happy Days.
I am currently writing a few stories about my time on boats,which I understand may be published in the "Growler"

All the Best.

[superchippie]

I have a cousin who worked at an aircraft scrapyard in Oxfordshire just after the war, and he used to tell me of brand new Wellington bombers, fresh from the factory, wheeled in on "Queen Mary" trailers. He would remove the oxygen bottles and anything else considered valuable and then set fire to the airframe!!
I have no reason to doubt his story.
The door knobs on the cupboards in his mother's house were from Mosquitos (throttle knobs I believe)!!!

[Avitor]

How many Lancs were turned into 'Lancastrians' like the passenger one which tragically crashed in S America?

[ScottishCop]

I heard that alot of Coastal Command Catalinas had their seacocks opened and were sunk at the end of the war. There is one such Catalina lying between the Isle of Cumbrae and Largs in Scotland. My dad dived on it and its intact as well.

I have seen pics of RAF Dumfries at the end of the war and there were hundreds of Wellingtons, Lancasters etc awaiting disposal. Alot were brand new. They had the wings removed at were buried in the Lochar Moss, which is a boggy area surrounding the airfield.

There would be some great finds there if it was to be dug up today!

[S'land]

Thanks for that Old Hairy. have stopped crying now. :ok:

[forget]

...... RAF Dumfries at the end of the war and there were hundreds of Wellingtons, Lancasters etc awaiting disposal. There would be some great finds there if it was to be dug up today!

Nice thought but, as it happens ex RAF Dumfries is the site of an interesting museum. I doubt if these guys would let possible salvage lie undisturbed.

http://www.dumfriesaviationmuseum.com/

[MarkerInbound]

Somewhat related, many of the B-32s (updated B-24) assembled in Ft. Worth by Consoldidated at the end of WWII were flown directly from the factory to smelters at Walnut Ridge, Arkansas so they were scrapped with just a couple of hours flight time on them.

From what I've read, the rational was the powers that be knew jets were just around the corner and wanted to clear the ramp, so to speak. I understand the penalty for not completing the contracts but you'd think someone could just say, "Here's your money, go have a beer."

[ZeBedie]

Additionally, I think the British Pacific Fleet carriers needed the space to bring home POWs.

Yes, my Dad's ship went home via Singapore.

[HZ123]

As a PC at STN in 72-73 I was told by a number of older staff that the USAF buried brand new dismantled WW2 a/c after hostilities ceased around the late 40's early 50's. They were placed under the existing runway and the old cross runway. Likewise i am told that there a a number of a/c underneath the old Foed plant at Langley, Slough. It seems many items were disposed of post war.

[FireLight]

B-32 notes from wikipedia. I also recall seeing a number of photographs with piles of P-38's and other U.S. fighters being bulldozed into holes on Pacific islands.


No examples remain of a B-32. Most production aircraft were delivered incomplete from the factory and flown directly to Davis-Monthan Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis-Monthan_Field), Arizona for storage. Many were offered for sale by the Reconstruction Finance Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Finance_Corporation) but no offers were received. A number of B-32 heavy bombers were flown to the Walnut Ridge Army Airfield, in Walnut Ridge, Arkansas, where they were scrapped by the Texas Railway Equipment Company, which bought 4,871 of the various aircraft stored at Walnut Ridge, including fighters and bombers of differing types. Most B-32s were scrapped by 1947.

From wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-32_Dominator

[Fareastdriver]

My father delivered brand new Halifaxs to Edzell, a Halifax and Stirling disposal unit, at the end of the war. Landings use to be quite interesting on a runway lined with aircraft with minor teething troubles like no flaps or brakes. The aircraft he was flying, that is.
Later on when he was on 202 Met Sqn at Aldergrove he used to fly a Halifax full of fitters to Dyce and they would road down to Edzell to cannibalise what spares they needed.
When High Ercall was a relief landing ground for Tern Hill in 1960 they were scrapping Spitfires and the airframes were being used as infill for a breakwater near Liverpool.

[Brian Abraham]

How many Lancs were turned into 'Lancastrians'
One is the answer as far as I can discern. The only Lancaster converted to a Lancastrian seems to be the prototype Lancastrian - granted C of A 7th Feb 1945. The last Lancastrian rolled off the production line in April 1946.

[mustpost]

Not strictly relevant to Lancasters but with reference to the scrap value and the need to rebuild after WW2 - close to here a satellite landing strip outside Haddington in East Lothian was used to store surplus a/c. These consisted of a variety of types, including Blenheims, Halifaxes, Whirlwinds and new Westland Welkins (over 60 I believe). Local lore has it that they lay there for a considerable time before eventually being scrapped some years later - thereby giving the lie to the urgency of using scrap materials.

[henry crun]

mustpost: "Whirlwinds and new Westland Welkins (over 60 I believe)" , plus some of the other types you mention would have been a drop in an ocean of huge numbers of aircraft of all types that were being scrapped.

I do not believe it was so much a matter of urgency, but of making use of what was available as and when it was needed.

Proximity to the necessary factories to melt the scrap down would have also played a part.
I can remember looking out of train windows several years after the war and seeing scrap yards at a number of locations still bursting at the seams.

[radicalrabit]

I was in Dhahran just after the first Gulf war and spent a fair bit of time Diver Training with the American forces in AlKhobar. Japans contribution to the Gulf war had mainly consisted of 4 wheel drive vehicles.
Hundreds upon hundreds of them. So after the war The Saudis didnt want these almost new vehicles flooding their market and no one else did either nor the bill for transporting them. The solution was to take these vehicles with less than 4000 miles on them in most cases, out into the desert for A10 s to use as target practice, and and then bury them. And this went on for months ! Funny because at the same time American divers were salvaging Marine Diesels off sunken Yachts and having them shipped back to the states .

[Avitor]

Brian Abraham

"One is the answer as far as I can discern. The only Lancaster converted to a Lancastrian seems to be the prototype Lancastrian - granted C of A 7th Feb 1945. The last Lancastrian rolled off the production line in April 1946".

Thankyou Brian.

[S'land]

One is the answer as far as I can discern. The only Lancaster converted to a Lancastrian seems to be the prototype Lancastrian - granted C of A 7th Feb 1945.

It seems that either nine or seven were converted according to British Aircraft Directory or Wikipedia. The latter is not always the most accurate source.

http://www.britishaircraft.co.uk/aircraftpage.php?ID=712

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lancastrian

[LowNSlow]

My Dad told me that when the war was finished they were still receiving brand new Halifaxes so they kept them for a week or so and then flew them to the scrapyard. I think he said it was Southend they went to.

[denis555]

Fascinating replies here.

Maybe the ‘flying into the sea’ was a pub-tale exaggeration but the maybe the pilot flew down to the south coast (Southend??) and heard a rumour about their fate .that has got extended over the years.

It does seem that new aircraft were 'put to the torch' however,

[ZeBedie]

Maybe the ‘flying into the sea’ was a pub-tale exaggeration

That's what I thought! How many pilots, having survived the war, would then want to risk their lives with an extremely dangerous and unnecessary stunt like this? And there was always the very slight risk of the abandoned bomber hitting an unfortunate ship. That could have taken some explaining.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Old Hairy

Its definately not true. Ive just been thro the appendix to Chas Bowyers book on the Sunderland (Good read) which contains details on all the boats produced in a appendix,details of their demise and disposal all 710 and there are no details on any criminal sinking.

IIRC (and it was a while ago) Kinloss sub aqua club dived on some wrecks in Nigg Bay and found 6 (again IIRC) Sunderlands on the bottom. Sadly they have been a bit chopped up by the anchors from the mobile oil rigs that are/were serviced there. Perhaps someone from ISK can verify?

Sorry S'land

[barit1]

My uncle was a medical corpsman in Germany around VE day. They were in need of ambulance transport vehicles, and managed to capture a forward German airfield with a number of Fieseler Fi 156 Storch STOL aircraft outfitted for ambulance use.

However, an Allied artillery unit showed up with orders to destroy all enemy aircraft, so they ran a tank down the flight line and ran over the tail section of each Storch. :{

[S'land]

Sorry S'land

I think I might start crying again. :{

It is understandable why such decisions were taken at the time. However, with hindsight (as always) it is a great shame that some examples of each type were not kept in store. There are so many types that we are not able to see today.

[mad_jock]

There is one such Catalina lying between the Isle of Cumbrae and Largs in Scotland

According to the clyde wreck book it was sunk in a storm. Pulled its moori ngs. Mind you that was a pretty well used excuse for sinking in the clyde. It actually just sitting off the beach in about 20m of water near the slip that the ferry uses. Near the underwater wire pole.

First time I dived it 18 years ago the wings were intact and sitting about 2 meters off the bottom and you could get in side and sit in the cockpit. There was the famous canopy which many a young diver used for an excuse to go down the hill looking for to get narked out of their heads at 40m on air.

8 years ago it was a crumbling heap you could still see box sections but no real detail. And there was no way you could get inside it as it had caved in on itself

[Brian Abraham]

Re Lancastrian.
The Canadians converted a number of Lancasters for the trans Atlantic transport role and were known as the Lancaster XPP (Mk. X Passenger Plane). Later when some of these were taken onto the British register they were registered as Lancastrians. Janes also refers to these aircraft as Lancastrians. The Lancastrian term however did not come into usage until well after when problems with the developement of the Tudor prompted BOAC to encourage Avro to undertake production of a transport version of the Lancaster. The resulting aircraft was the Lancastrian and was a more detailed development than the Canadian Lancaster XPP. At the end of the day I guess it may boil down to semantics as to what one may call a conversion, or aiframe that deserves the title Lancastrian.

[S'land]

Brian Abraham:

Thanks for clearing that up.

When one considers the developments made from the original Lancaster (Lancastrians, Lincoln, Shackleton, Tudor) it shows the brilliance and versatility of Roy Chadwick's design.

[Blacksheep]

the developments made from the original Lancaster T'were said that the Argosy's wings were produced on old Lancaster jigs; though personally, I reckon Halifax jigs would be more likely..

[Krakatoa]

I could be wrong but I always understood the Agosy wing was the same as the Shackleton Mk.3.
The Mk.3 wing was slighty different from the Shackleton Mk.2 wing and had a shorter fatigue life. The Shackleton Mk.3 was timex before the Mk2.

[Brian Abraham]

Following VJ Day the British Pacific Fleet used the four carriers then in Sydney to dump lend lease Corsairs and Avengers in the water off the heads. Barges were also used. The full range of aircraft dumped I don't have details of but believe included brand new Mustangs still in protective shipping covers.

[airborne_artist]

I heard of Spitfires being produced, delivered, test flown for acceptance, and then being towed to the other end of the airfield to be scrapped, soon after the end of WWII.

The person who told me was my flying scholarship FI, called (no relation) Jonny Johnson. Played/looked as if he'd been in the RAF, but not sure how true that was, either. He was at Luton Flying Club in the late 70s.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Krakatoa. The Argosy wing was, indeed, structurally and aerodynamically that of a Shackleton MK3. The top illustration is a MK3 and the lower a MK2 (and identical to a Lincoln)




http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n131/Golf_Bravo_Zulu/AVR696_3_2.jpg

AVRO (soon to become Hawker Siddeley, AVRO Whitworth Division) allocated their Type No 733 to the mainplane they designed for the AW Argosy. The Shack MK3 mainplane didn't, in fact, have a lower fatigue life than the MK2's; except when attached to a Shack MK3 Phase 3 where the extra AUW and thrust from 2 BS Vipers hammered hell out of it.

Back to Thread: scrap/destruction direct from build doesn't seem to have been a common event with Lancasters. My reference is the "Individual Histories" in Harry Holmes excellent book "AVRO Lancaster - the definitive record". Lots of cancelled contracts from "shadow factories" before construction commenced and a very few long storage at MUs (eg SW298, a MK1 FE from Armstrong Whitworth commencing May '45, on charge at 38, 32, 15 MUs, Near East, sold to scrap November '54).

[rpontin]

I worked on them asa electrical mechanic for their last 2 years at Pemboke Dock. Theydid not have a sea cock but what about the HF tube for the trailing aerial. If you unscrewed that you would sink one. Also many years later I met an old Sunderland Nav. who told me the story of Sunderlands on a world tour that when they got as far as Cape Town they were given permission to taxi them out to sea and sink them because of their poor condition. It was just not worth flying them back to the UK. hat is the only time that I have heard this tale. RP

[ScottishCop]

RAF Dumfries

The area where the aircraft were buried in (looking at the overhead photos) is now a forest owned by the Forestry Commission I believe. the musuem know about it but with their current finiancial crisis are unable to do anything.

[LowNSlow]

Given the size of hole needed for an aeroplane why would they bother especially given the intrinsic value of the scrap material and the fact that there was a disposal agency set up to process all the war surplus airframes.

Just in case anybody wonders about the Sunderland in Sullm Voe it was dumped after returning from a patrol so full of holes that the pilot taxiied it up the slipway. After salvaging all the useful bits it was towed out into the Voe to sink. It didn't half cause some fuss when they did a seabed survey in the early 80's just before they started bring oil tankers into the shiny new terminal.......... As did the piles of 40mm Bofors ammo dumped into the sea.....

[ZH875]

I could be wrong but I always understood the Agosy wing was the same as the Shackleton Mk.3.


Wasn't the twin tail booms on the Argosy, a pair of Meteor fuselages?.

[240 Gardner]

My father always told me that W6076 (95/D), which had been his for over a year at Bathurst, was scuttled after VE Day, and definitely before he left. I think that the Bowyer book describes it as SOC. It certainly disappears abruptly from his logbook!

I'm sure he told me that all the Mk III Sunderlands were abandoned there, and only the Mk. Vs brought home. Sadly, I can no longer ask him.

[henry crun]

ZH875: I feel sure that if you compare the relative dimensions of the two aircraft, the answer to your question would be no.

[Porrohman]

After VJ Day, my Father-in-Law was involved with dumping lots of surplus FAA aircraft near Brisbane. Many were towed to a swamp and sunk. Others were loaded onto aircraft carriers taken offshore and heaved over the side. He showed me photos of the convoys of aircraft being towed through Brisbane to the swamp and the docks. Aircraft included Corsairs and Barracudas.

I passed details of this operation and copies of the photos to the FAA Museum many years ago when they were trying to locate a Barracuda to add to their collection. I understand that the FAA Museum still doesn't have a Barracuda, just assorted bits from various crashed examples.

I have visions of fossilised Corsairs and Barracudas being discovered by geologists millions of years from now :ok:

[Gerry Mobbs]

One of my cousins,a pre-war Halton apprentice,told me that he was involved at the end of WW11 in dumping unpacked equipment including whole aircraft overboard from a carrier as it steamed up the channel.It was carried out at the request of the USA

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Given the size of hole needed for an aeroplane why would they bother What about hose Lancasters they found bvuried a few years ago with the wings removed and placed under the fuselages then? ...or is that what we've been talking about here?

[RETDPI]

I blundered in to this on another forum:
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/warbirds/SunderlandT9044/index.htm

It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.

[denis555]

< Scuttling Sunderlands
I blundered in to this on another forum:
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/w...9044/index.htm (http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/warbirds/SunderlandT9044/index.htm)

It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.>

Great site, I particularly like the d(r)owned B17 off the Norwegian coast that looks almost complete.

Shame that I can't find any images of soggy Sunderlands or Lancs on the web

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
I read an account in an old veteran's memoirs of delivering an Anson Mk 1 to a desert base, after a very tiring and weather-troubled haul from the UK, near the end of WW II.A senior NCO accepted the aircraft, after having complained bitterly that he had indented for a Mk 19(or similar).To the pilot's dismay,the NCO set fire to the old Anson within hours of it's arrival.
regards
TDD

[Launchpad McQuack]

With regards to underwater wrecks etc, does anybody know if there is a compehensive list available of underwater aircraft wrecks that can be dived on with standard scuba gear? I'm aware of the better known wrecks in the South West Pacific, but there must be others?

Cheers!

LP

[denis555]

Not that this helps much but I have checked with my father ( now 95 ) on this story. His friend ( now sadly long gone ) was stationed at Carlisle at the time ( possibly RAF Crosby-on-Eden ???) .

As I said before the whole story has a whiff of the bar room tale about it but now at least you know all the facts...

Also he wasn't in the RAF but in the Air Transport Auxillary ( which makes the parachuting out bit even less likeley )

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

With regards to underwater wrecks etc, does anybody know if there is a compehensive list available of underwater aircraft wrecks that can be dived on with standard scuba gear? I'm aware of the better known wrecks in the South West Pacific, but there must be others?
Not aircraft, but there was a site lined to in JetBlast once that contained a lot of info about diving on wrecked ships.

You might try there, the site was good laid out like a guide book, so maybe they have some aircraft.

[Warmtoast]

Shame that I can't find any images of soggy Sunderlands or Lancs on the web

Dry land equivalent of scuttling c. 1957.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image2-1.jpg

What a waste.

[Windy Militant]

Possibly this was a misremembering of the Aphrodite missions where war weary aircraft were packed with explosives and aimed by radio control at Submarine pens and V2 Bunkers. The take off was made by a volunteer crew who then baled out leaving the aircraft to be flown to its target by remote control from a chase plane....

[denis555]

Possibly this was a misremembering of the Aphrodite missions where war weary aircraft were packed with explosives and aimed by radio control at Submarine pens and V2 Bunkers. The take off was made by a volunteer crew who then baled out leaving the aircraft to be flown to its target by remote control from a chase plane....

This could well be true - Crew baling out in such a mission could be justified I suppose - but not just to scrap a plane!

Howver my aged father swears this was what was told him - the empasis being the waste of money and resources during a time of rationing and belt tightening...

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Like the XB17 / YB17 program - and the German Mistletoe. :8

[NickB]

A friend of my father who served in the FAA remembers pushing crated, zero timed Centaurus engines destined for Sea Furies/Firebrands 'over the side' for various budgetary reasons :eek:

And now we hear about the RNHF scratching around for engines/ engine parts to keep their Sea Fury (s) airworthy; its enough to make a grown man cry...

One of my favourite moans is I cannot believe that a single Sea Hornet (or Hornet for that matter) wasn't kept for a museum. If the aircraft looked like something designed by Homer Simpson, one could understand, but the aircraft was a beauty & a thoroughbred. I'll shut up now as I'm depressing myself & probably boring a lot (all?) of you...

[Brian Abraham]

Nick - Boring, no, depressing, yes.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/hornet2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/hornet1.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/hornet.jpg
Sorry for the off thread, but am too depressed.

[NickB]

Wow!

I hate to say it, but a Sea Hornet/Hornet makes the Mossie look like a brick!

[FireLight]

Au contraire.

While the Hornet carries the fine de Havilland bloodlines, the Mosquito is the real looker. The stubby nose of the Hornet relative to the Mossie is a distraction. Therefore, advantage Mossie. :ok:

Nevertheless, it is a terrible shame that there are no Hornet airframes remaining in existence, as it is a shame that there are (not yet) any Mosquitos flying around. (although some are being made flyable, and some could fly.)

But what did happen to all of the Hornets? All scrapped? No bits left anywhere? :confused:

[aviate1138]

A glimmer of hope?

http://www.dhhornet50.net/index.php?f=data_home&a=1

http://www.dhhornet50.net/index.php?f=data_home&a=2

[denis555]

While the Hornet carries the fine de Havilland bloodlines, the Mosquito is the real looker. The stubby nose of the Hornet relative to the Mossie is a distraction. Therefore, advantage Mossie. :ok:



although the Hornet was a real looker, I have to agree that to my mind the Mosquito scores higher... or maybe I am influenced by it's history???

[S'land]

I'm afraid that I cannot agree with NickB on this. I agree that the Hornet looks good, but the Mosquito looks much better. There was something "balanced" about the Mosquito that made it look just right. The Hornet seems just that little bit "unbalanced" to me.

I still agree that it is a shame that there are no preserved Hornet airframes around, or even better flying aircraft.

[NickB]

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect others when they say they prefer the Mossie.

But for me, if I can make an analogy, the Mossie is like a cart horse, strong & dependable, but the Hornet is a thoroughbred racehorse, slim, sleek & fast (but perhaps a bit less sturdy!)

Either way, I still cannot believe there is not a single whole one left :{

[denis555]

Talking of preserved Mosquitos / Hornets – am I correct in thinking that they are especially difficult to preserve as the glue used in the laminated wooden structure has a very limited life and after a two decades or so starts to loose it’s composition and the plywood layers start curling up like a stale sandwich?

I guess a few months in the sea would see them disappear into soggy silt…

[ICT_SLB]

Denis,
You might want to ask the Royal Netherlands Air Force. I remember a presentation by one of their colonels about the aircraft found in the Zuider Zee when it was drained. They found one Mossie with a Luftwaffe crew!

[henry crun]

dennis: I cannot quote you the source because it was too long ago I read and heard about it, but IIRC many Mossies and Hornets in the far east had to be scrapped because of the failure of the glue joints in critical areas.

The glues used in those days could not stand up to prolonged exposure in wet hot and humid climates.

A friend in an earlier life flew Hornets and reckoned they were one of the all time great aircraft.
Handed propellers so no swing, long range and endurance, lovely handling, and high speed when required.

[RETDPI]

Regarding the "Lufwaffe" Mossie. IIRC what was apparently found was german armament. I have the article somewhere by the Dutch officer in charge of recovery ( Flying Review C 1963-4?)
This incident was claimed to be the trigger point for a later very fictional and unlikely story about K.G. 200. I remember wasting money buying the paperback.
P.S Just checked; the Jan 64 article in FRI ("Museum in the Mud") doesn't mention the Mosquito oddity . It is mentioned ,I am pretty sure, in the preface to "K.G. 200" which was around the early 70's. I binned my copy many years ago. The authors were also interviewed on television when,as well as the interesting Mosquito story , the claim for an improbably large K.G. 200 was voiced . Unfortunately it did not set off sufficently loud alarm bells to deter me from buying the book!

[denis555]

The glues used in those days could not stand up to prolonged exposure in wet hot and humid climates.


That's probally where I heard about the glue problem - reading about tropical Mossies.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Actually I heard that ... on AH&N

[Pondskater]

Hi,

On the subject of Sunderlands, I've just been reading an Admiralty file at the National Archives about this very subject. They were consulted by the Air Ministry on plans to sink aircraft during 1944 - and rightly questioned why the material wasn't going back into the war effort.

Areas proposed were Moray Firth, Loch Ryan and Firth of Clyde which brought objections because they were too shallow and one interfered with a submarine telegraph cable

Their Lordships consulted with the fisheries people - who had strong objections to their nets being fouled - and came up with a suggestion that aircraft would be best sunk in areas either too deep for fishing (200+ fathoms, west of Hebrides) or close inshore in shallow water with a rocky seabed where fishing was impossible.

The Admiralty said "As a matter of principle, any fouling of the seabed is to be deprecated where the depth of water is less than 200 fathoms.", although a list of locations at 6 fathoms (presumably rocky seabed) were proposed at the same time.

The plan was to sink 24 obsolete aircraft but, because of the long debate, the advantage of the scheme was being lost and the file ends without it being clear whether any aircraft were ever sunk.

However, it does establish that the principle was accepted by the Air Ministry and the Admiralty.

Oh, and the method of scuttling was to be by small explosive charge.

It is an interesting file

Allan

[JW411]

Getting back to the Argosy booms being made out of Meteor fuselages; when I did the manufacturers course at Baginton with Whitworth Glosters (as they were at that time) in 1962, the instructors readily admitted that the wing structure was based on the Shackleton but denied the Meteor connection.

One day we went over to Bitteswell to look at the complete aircraft and we asked why it was that the booms were the only parts of the airframe that were flush-rivetted!

It was eventually admitted, with some reluctance, that modified Meteor jigs had indeed been used. After all, Armstrong Whitworths (as they were then) built most of the Meteor night fighters.

[diginagain]

Did anything emerge from the search for scuttled Catalina in lower Lough Erne?

[cliffnemo]

Don't know what happened to our Lancs. But on V.J night we ran out of wood for our bonfire and had to use the mess grand piano. After recovering. we dumped all the unused bombs in the North Sea. Used up the fuel by taking ground staff and W.A.A.Fs on Rhur tours. Later at Burtonwood, I witnessed the arrival of many Flying Fortresses, which were quickly hoisted by crane on to a large heap

[Taildragger67]

1946 - my (then teenage) Dad was about to cross the street in southern Sydney when a convoy of trucks rumbled past, carrying what were clearly pre-assembly fighters still in very fresh-looking crates (I can't recall what type, but Spitfires springs to mind).

He later found out they'd been on their way to the docks for loading onto a ship upon which they were taken a few miles out and dumped overboard :{.