89 First Officers at SIA w/out ATPL, violation of ICAO safety standards

[Gladiator]

It has been confirmed that 89 First Officers are without ATPL operating aircraft certified for operation with a crew of two.

This is in violation of ICAO minimum safety standars as well as Singapore Air navigation Order.

Safety of passengers and cabin crew on SIA aircraft are questionable.

[Crockett]

Interesting...very interesting..

I question what the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) in Singapore are doing about this..

[Gladiator]

Nothing, they will do nothing. As previously discussed, the Ministery of Transport is part of the same organization that puts profits ahead of safety.

Ken Toft of CAAS in response to this issue said,

"what are we suppose to do with the First Officers (co-pilots) that cannot pass the ATPL exams, leave them without a job?"

CAAS is abusing the fact that ICAO does not get involved with any enforcement action. Compliance with ICAO minimum safety standards as established by the Chicago Convention is suppose to be an agreement by the governments.

SIA, CAAS, and Ministry of Transport of Singapore are busted.

In not so kind words SIA/SilkAir are boot leg operations.

In what other areas are they cheating and compromising passenger safety to increase profits?


[This message has been edited by Gladiator (edited 09 July 2000).]

[askcv]

I've missed something here: wot's wrong with the FO only having a CPL/IR?

[Gladiator]

ICAO Annex 1 (Personnel Licensing) requires the following:

2.1 General rules concerning pilot licenses and ratings.

2.1.1.1 A person shall not act either as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of an aircraft in any category unless that person is the holder of a pilot license issued in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter.

2.1.3.2 Type ratings shall be established for:

a) each type of aircraft certificated for operation with a minimum crew of at least two pilots; (B747-400, B-777, A-310, A340, L-31)

Type ratings as required by 2.1.3.2a)

The applicant shall have:

c) demonstrated, at the airline transport pilot license level, an extent of knowledge determined by the Licensing Authority.

[Kaptin M]

Therefore, according to our Gladys, EVERY Airline in the world, that operates a 2 pilot crew of which only one - the captain - holds an ATPL, is in violation.

Read the fine print, Glad: 2.1.1.1 "...holder of a pilot licence..." yes, they [the F/O's]comply with that, by holding a Commercial licence.

2.1.3.2 Type rated - yes, they are endorsed ie. type rated.

c) demonstrated.......an extent of knowledge determined by the Licensing authority. It's a fine line, BUT, the wording is NOT "have passed a written examination..". And so it can be argued that as almost all Airline Companies employ authorised [by the relevant Licensing Authority] examiners of airmen, these examiners are, at each check, able to confirm that the F/O's demonstrate the required extent of knowledge.

It's not only Singapore Airlines that you're up against with this one, however, you have singled them out for your personal vendetta.

You're really pi55ing into wind on this one, Glad. As you grow up, and become familiar with the law, contracts, work agreements, etc., you'll find there are all sorts of little "interpretations" that can be made in certain clauses, and which are obviously written, left as such, as being too specific can often be too restrictive on one party.

[titan]

Where I come from you won't even get an interview with an airline until you have an ATPL, 1000 hours command and 500 hours multi-engine.
Why would an airline that supposedly employs with the intention of making First Officers into future Captains, not ensure that the prospective employees have the ability to pass the ATPL subjects in the first place.

[Kaptin M]

Titan, that's the way it is now, because there are so many applicants - it's one way of weeding out some of the prospective failures [when they are forced to take the subjects, to get a command].

It hasn't always been that way, and chances are, with another pilot shortage, airlines will again be forced to take people with bare CPL's. They don't like to do this, because it means having a guy in the system for so many years, having trained him, re-newed him, and possibly endorsed him on several different aircraft, only to have him unable to pass his theory. The choice - dump him and cut your losses, or leave him in the system as a permanent f/o.

The requirements for airlines these days, usually include, ATPL, Instrument Rating, twin time, turbine experience if possible, 1500-2000 hours minimum. BUT these are ALL "nice to haves", and NOT a requirement for a first officer.

[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 09 July 2000).]

[Gladiator]

Kaptin M I was not aware that you are a lawyer as well.

Read again.

"pilot license issued in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter".

Easier yet pick up the phone and call ICAO.

Recently Maurice DeVz warned the 89 SIA First Officers without ATPL that they may lose their job.

And yes according to ICAO's safety standards any airline that operates 2-man crew aircraft is required to comply with the ATPL issue.

Maybe you would like to shed light on the following:

From the DFO's Dsek (Maurice DeVz. Newsletter)
December 1, 1995

3. Licensing requirements

3.1 There is a general industry-wide movement towards the requirement for co-pilots on mutlti-pilot aircraft to have an ATPL (oe equivalent) license or, at least, to have passed the ATPL exams. We have been informed by the CAAS that they are also considering this for Singapore license holders.

3.2 This impending requirements has prompted us to train all our cadets at the Singapore Flting College to the ATPL standard. If we need to employ direct-entry first or seconf officers, only those with an ATPL qualification acceptable to the CAAS will be considered. For co-pilots in the Company without the ATPL, there may be some "grandfather" provisions which will enable them to carry on as co-pilots. However, they may be restricted to their existing fleet and could therefore not be "licensed" to convert to a new aircraft type until they pass the ATPL exams.

3.3 the Company is discussing this matter with CAAS and providing inputs on how any new regulations in this area may be appropriately introduced. In the meanwhile, co-pilots who do not have an ATPL qualification will be well advised to obtain it as quickly as possible. End

In reference to a "grandfather clause", bull **** because there is no such thing.

ICAO implemented this in 1988 dear agent M. You can argue with me until the chili sauce turns into sugar and the facts will not change.

Next,

ALPA(S) Associate News
December 1993

F/O ATPL Status

Associate Members are continuing to raise the issue of an F/O's eligibility to convert a foreign ATPL to a Singaporean ATPL, without having to resit the examinations.

Be advised that we are continuing to work on this issue, especially with the up and coming proposed licensing changes associated with E.C members.

All F/O's who do not hold a Singaporean ATPL are requested to register with the Fleet Associate Rep., providing licensing and experience details, by January 31, 1994.

F/Os should note that it may soon become a requirement for all Pilots engaged in two crew operations to hold ATPL qualifications.

The next document was quickly put together when SIA/CAAS realized that we were establishing a paperwork trail.

Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore
ADVISORY CIRCULAR 9 March 1999

Type Rating: Requirements for pilots on aeroplanes certificated for operation by two pilots.

1. The International Civil Aviation Organization has required pilots operating aircraft certificated for two-pilot operation to have demonstrated an ATPL level theoretical knowledge (Please see erarlier circular AC-FO 3/96 dated 13 Sep 96 attached).

2. From 1 January 2000, CAAS will require all applicants for a type rating on an aircraft certificated for two-pilot operation to have passed the Singapore ATPL examinations.

3. Since 1 January 1997, CAAS has required all new Singapore CPL holders to have passed the Singapore ATPL examinations.

4. The ATPL level theoretical requirements will now be applicable to all existing CPL holders effective 1 January 2000. In this regard, no new aircraft rating certificated for two pilot operation will be endorsed for all existing CPL holders who have not passed the Singapore ATPL examinations. Nevertheless, they may continue to exercise the privileges of the ratings already endorsed in their licenses.

5. Further enquiries may be mde to the CAAS Flight Operations Section at Tel: 5412482

TAN WEE LEE
HEAD (FLIGHT OPERATIONS)
for DIRECTOR-GENERAL OF CIVIL AVAITION
CIVIL AVIATION AUTHORITY OF SINGAPORE

Next,

Chicago Convention (ICAO)

Article 38 - Departure from International standards and procedures.

Any State which finds it impracticable to comply in all respects with any such international standards or procedures, or to bring its own regulations or practices into full accord with any international standards or procedures after amendment of the latter, or which deems it necessary to adopt regulations or practices differing in any particular respect from those established by an international standard, shall give IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION TO THE INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION ORGANIZATION of the DIFFERENCES between its own practice and that established by the international standard. In the case of amendments to international standards, any state which does not make the appropriate amendments to its own regulations or practices SHALL GIVE NOTICE TO THE COUNCIL WITHIN SIXTY DAYS of the adoption of the amendment to the international standards, or indicate the action which it proposes to take. In any such case, the Council shall make immediate notification to all other states of the difference which exists between one or more features of an international standard and corresponding national practice of that State. End

ICAO has never received any information from CAAS, representing Singapore, an ICAO member State.

Next,

Singapore Air Navigation Order,
Members of flight crew licenses

19-(1) Subject to this paragraph, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of a Singapore aircraft unless he is the holder of an appropriate license granted or rendered valid under this Order:

(8) Notwithstanding anything in this paragraph -
(a) the holder of a license granted or rendered valid under this Order being a license endorsed to the effect that the holder does not satisfy in full the RELEVANT INTERNATIONAL STANDARD, shall not act as a member of the flight crew of a Singapore aircraft in the territory of a Contracting State other than Singapore, except in accordance with permission granted by the competent authorities of that State.

In short Agent M, SIA/CAAS are only in compliance with international safety standards if the aircraft taxis around Changi airport.

No other Contracting State has given SIA permission to operate in it's territory without being in compliance with the international safety standards.

Sorry to have p1ssed on your parade Agent M. Looks like we are the WATCHDOG and you and your gang the UNDERDOG.

p.s. Do you like Unimogs?

[This message has been edited by Gladiator (edited 09 July 2000).]

[Kangar]

Folks,
Normally I'm a lowly viewer in this forum, but, really, Gladiator, you really have too much time on your hands. I doubt very much that SIA sit up all night and worry about you nearly as much as you do about them. Still, it's nice to see an ex employee trying to keep his old company on the straight and narrow, and looking out for their general good.

[cyclops]

Some of the Fos did go thru Singapore Flying College last year. Academmically they did not impress, lacking even the basic knowledge. I'm still trying to figure out why a 28 year FO coming up to retirement was even considering the exams.
FOs had to find the time for the course from their leave allocation. Being on a course at the College would also screw up their currency. As a result only 5 appeared. More courses may have been run in the past year.

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