SIA Mishap

[boeinglover]

Hi Guys, lately there have been discussion of SIA policies, the way they cover up aircrafts/midair incidents etc etc?

Can anyone throw some light as to which incidents happen & when? This is to be fair to the general public who flys SQ everday. People have the right to know & to question when safety is compromised. Take eg what went wrong during the Learjet training flight that went down in Thailand?

Everybody knew & have read the local papers but no explanation was given why???????

Guess it's time someone talk....



[This message has been edited by boeinglover (edited 24 October 2000).]

[joblessflyer]

hi BL,
yeah!really like to know what actually happened to the Learjet accident maybe we can learn one thing or two from making mistake.anyone care to share?
cheers!

[boeinglover]

JF,

Bet not that no one knows but the fact is people out there know something is wrong somewhere but by some unforeseen reasons no one dares to voice out!!!! Come on man this is a democractic society & we as paying commercial pax deserved to be well informed.

Take for instance the MI incident, till now after so many years still there is no legal & proper statements saying what went wrong!!!! One should believe that the poor family members of the ill-fated pax & crew and the whole country are all waiting for the final verdict of the investigation.

Comments?

[This message has been edited by boeinglover (edited 24 October 2000).]

[Sunny]

Fair enough that people should know what happened, but just remember when you bring such topics up that people lost their lives in those accidents. I don't like the tone that you guys have, as if you are trying to get some gossip for a trash newspaper like the New Paper.

[This message has been edited by Sunny (edited 28 October 2000).]

[joblessflyer]

who the h*ll cares whether you like it or not is none of your business!

we have no intention of what you have in mind=gossip! just wanna learn from mistake from making one.

and we are very sorry to the deceased but not you!

[hounddog high]

why only SIA?

we can also learn from the rest like MAS, THAI, CATHAY etc., would they like to share some beans too.

sensed some malice intended here? :rolleyes:

[Sunny]

BL, why this interest in incidents and accidents? Shouldn't you be more interested in learning how to fly for now? And JF, if you were actually an airline pilot based in Singapore, would'nt you already know about why the Lear went down? Or does nobody talk to you? If you were really interested in learning from incidents and accidents you wouldn't be looking for gossip. What you want are facts, not speculation.Nobody learns anything fron that.
And why the hell should you be sorry for me?
You guys are the ones digging up trash.

[joblessflyer]

sunny,

get a life!

[Gladiator]

Yeh get a life dude.

[ironbutt57]

"Sunny" just a casual observation, doesn't appear you have to dig very deep to find the trash down 'round your part of the world...anyway, lies are not a good cover against a good sharp shovel....

[boeinglover]

Sunny, for your info I did learn to fly and have flown when I having my tertiary education. I brought up the topic because I knew & have heard alot of flying community here spoke and discussed about it but no one could give a true account of what happened & why with a very big ?

As you can see with more people in the this forum contributing to the theory or facts that they believe or had known what went wrong, perhaps we future pilots can be spared with the same senario & getting ourselves killed. Agree joblessflyer, gladiater etc etc.....

Cheers.

[boeinglover]

Hounddog high, Why only SIA? Reason is very simple, these incidents happened to Singapore Registered Aircraft. So why should we be discussing about other countries' incident or their aircrafts.

We should therefore question ourselves here locally first & compare with the results/outcome obtained learn from bitter mistakes before we speak of another country's carrier................

Further more we locals have no right to comment or critise other carrier unless our SQ or MI have shown to be the best but sadly not so in this case of topic.....

Good Day.

[Goldwing2000]

Boeinglover very aptly put. Remind me to nominate you for a political posts. With someone like you we can all go places(politically speaking,ofcourse!)and corruption will be wiped out. :)

---------------
If you do what you always do, you get what you always got!

[boeinglover]

GW2000,

Thanks for your input. You see I put up this topic inorder to find out the real truth behind the close scene.

As an aviator, we must always know & be sure of what's happening or had happened & not to repeat the same mistake. Take flying for instance, I could still remembered many fellow student pilots getting verbal slashing by the instructors so as not to commit the same mistakes again in future.

In this case it's the same, hoping that correct & accurate information is being passed round so that we realise & take correct action in future. And also to prevent a repeat of another National disaster.

Good Day.

[Sunny]

Boeinglover, I did not question your qualifications, and did not mean any offence.If you have been offended, I do apoligise. It is just that too many seem to be using this forum for other reasons than to share information. And to tell you the truth, I'm sick of that.

Anyway, you asked about the Learjet, well what I was told was that the DME at Ranong was inaccurate, and perhaps they were not calculating their descent profile as they decended through cloud. Anyway there was a change to the VOR DME approach into Ranong which would keep aircraft above high terrain (4170ft).

[boeinglover]

Hi Sunny, pls don take the matter to heart. It's just a mere discussion here & anyone including you & me can voice out our views...

It just happen to be that this topic is a very subjective & sensitive issue such that not many local people(Aviators) who knew what happened find pleasure to discuss.

Well thanks for your info Sunny, that some light has finally been thrown out to those fellow like me who really want to know what went wrong on that training flight.

I guess in this case the verdict of the crash would be more appropriate to be classified as faulty equipment on the ground.

But don't you guys agree/feel that the crash was partly attributed to pilot error as the crew should have known(through their training) and if they were alert enough that something was definitely wrong somewhere at that time.

Once again thanks Sunny for providing us some info on that...

Cheers.

[Sunny]

Well faulty equipment on the ground may have added to the situation, but the safe operation of the aircraft still is the responsibility of the crew. No matter what the published approaches may say, our own lives and those of our passengers rest in our hands. We can't just blindly follow what ATC and those on the ground say.

[boeinglover]

Sunny, I am just wondering why this matter/incident was not made known to the aviation community or public on local papers in general.

Everybody at that time were shocked to read from the papers that SQ training flight had crash in Thailand.

The news came to me as a shock too as an Aviator.

[boeinglover]

Guys,

Bad & sad news!!!!

SIA Jumbo crashed today in Taiwan.

[Sunny]

Bad day for SIA today. Especially after the 747 (bound for London) that had the engine failure right here in Singapore. One runway was closed for about 50 mins while they put out a grass fire.

[mgdimarco]

Is it any suprise to those of us who flew for SQ that a local captain could not handle operating in a stiff crosswind?

Dodging debris my arss. The only thing dodgy is the Captain's excuse and SIA immediately handing out money to victims. Again, those of us who have lived under their tyranny know better. This is as much an admission of guilt as you'll ever get from a Singaporean.

Barrel roles over the Indian Ocean, improper control inputs whilst on autopilot resulting in pitch-ups that injure passengers, attempting to land on the wrong runway, taxiing into deadends are all symptoms of the Asian lack of CRM in their culture and training.

Can I back this stuff up? Hardly, no records lah. All gone lah. Too bad lah. This bury your head in the sand approach to running an airline has Alaska Air in dire straights. Why should SQ or any airline be any different?

Standing nail gets the hammer? Same goes for those hiding from the truth. They eventually get pegged.

My prayers to the victims and their families.

[boeinglover]

This topic was posted on 24Oct 2000 a week before the crash of SQ006 and the real thing happened!!!!! God knows why!!! And what a real coincidence.

Many Aviators out there say this time really have to buy lottery....

Marco, for your info the Captain on SQ006 is a Malaysian with 11,235 flying hours not a Singaporean whereas the two F/Os are.

[Whiskery]

boeinglover - grow up boy!

Mike - let's just wait and see what transpires in the next couple of days. I know exactly what you're saying, but there is a lot of heart break here at the moment and even more speculation.

Keep the faith:]

[boeinglover]

Guys, SIA CEO has accepted prelim findings that SQ6 took off from the wrong rwy on tuesday night in Taiwan.

Good Day

[MASystem]

relax , we're only human

singporean or malaysian, we dont want it to happen...

All the best

[addinfurnightem]

Boeinglover - What happened to the Learjet has been widely disseminated within the areas that are affected, Learjet know, SIA and their training department know, Thailand, (whose job it is to publish the findings knows) and pretty well all of us who were here at the time know. In addition, the findings have been passed on throughout the air safety environment, worldwide, but have been "de-identified", is this what is bothering you?
If you keep going on like this many of us will be inclined to think that far from writing a serious paper you actually failed to get into SIA?

[This message has been edited by addinfurnightem (edited 05 November 2000).]

[titan]

addinfurnightem:
Be a good lad and please publish here what the whole "world knows" so that the whole world can at last find out.

"If it effects the share price - then cover it up"

[addinfurnightem]

TITAN - you were here when it happened weren't you?
It involved a highly respected Australian training captain, it was classified under CFIT.

[cyclops]

As part of the training establishment of SIA at the time I can say that we were not informed officially as to why the accident occurred. There were lots of rumours and that's all. I am certain that if the ground equipment was at fault SIA would have trumpeted this as the cause. At least Taipei happened in a public situation and therefore can not be covered up.

------------------
To define the norm you must sample the excesses

[NCC-1701e]

I had the pleasure of flying behind that Lear once. It was shooting down a LOC when suddenly it declared that it lost the LOC and DME. Smart enough he went around. The tower though, without checking, declared its NDB approach for everyone else. Yeah NDB approach in a Thunderstorm, sure http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif The problem was, I was getting the LOC all the time. Ident and all. So did everyone else behind me. Good thing the tower decided to allow us a LOC approach. Wouldn't have gotten visual otherwise. I have always wondered, is it the ground eq or is there a problem with the Lear's intruments.

[boeinglover]

Addinfurnightem,

For your info, I have not tried & currently also underage to have a go at SQ cadet scheme.

But would definitely wanna to have a shot at it when I turn 26. Also I have nothing against SQ, they always have my support even after the recent crash. When I travel, it's always on SQ planes only.

Good day.


[This message has been edited by boeinglover (edited 07 November 2000).]

[PPRuNe Towers]

PPRuNe will be using 2001 to mount a major safety dissemination project. To be blunt we are going to use the site as a conduit to the major safety and confidential reporting systems established in a few countries.

If we have to shame other parts of the world into stepping into open sharing of information we will. Don't care how long or how much time it takes - the PPRuNe community will make a difference.

------------------
Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

[Sir Jerker]

Why is everyone telling the world that the guy who screwed up in Taipei was Malaysian. It was in the papers, it is on this site, it was said over and over on the electronic media. Does this order come straight from Lee Kuan Yu's office. "Tell them he's a Malaysian. Everyone knows Singaporean pilots are better than Malaysian pilots." The name was Chinese (Foong CK). He worked for Singapore Airlines and that says it all.

[Grapes]

sir jerker,

yeah, poor m'sian in SIA, worked there for 21 years, lost his m'sian mentality, picked up the sick singaporean mentality + the SIA mentality...that's why things like that can happen. They can say whatever they want about the malaysians, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHA who's major reputation is it that's gone? SIA 'lah' of course. However, SIA still loves malaysians and would rather recruit them to be their flight crew. Again, poor m'sian.....just remember that having a sing mentality wouldn't get you too far. Maybe the singaporeanIZED captain was so 'kiasu' that when other planes took off from TPE before him, such as MAS, he 'also cannot tahanlah'. The singaporean mentality tells him - no, cannot delay take off, MUST take off, until the point the RWY played tricks on him..... poor guy.

[joblessflyer]

this posting is not refering to the TPE crash and I dont think malaysian pilots who work for SQ are 'poor thing'. Their salary as capt with SQ say is about $20,000 and when converted to malaysian currency is about RM44,000! with that amount you can buy a terrace house in malaysia.if they were to fly for mas think they will get about RM18000.these people started without any aviation(cadets)experience and were given everything by SQ! so,what is there to complain?

[Gladiator]

I think it was in 1996 when a SIA male cabin crew raped and killed a female cabin crew in a Los Angeles hotel room.

In Singapore before his name and nationality was published, the Singaporeans were quick to say, "the Malaysian cabin crew that..."

Sir Jerker, the master prefect's name is, Lee Kuan Yew (Dirty Harry).

[Grapes]

Yeah, Singaporean mentality is just sick.
Someone told me all the Malaysians have to do is to add some oil. ? Huh?
Anyway, I mean POOR THING as in he's lost his Malaysian mentality for the Sing's....

[titan]

addinfurnightem:
Wrong again. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

The "respected pilot" was flying a sophisticated multi-crew aircraft as Single Pilot IFR PLUS covering for the mistakes of his student pilot. Where was the Safety Pilot?

Why does SIA cover it up? - LOSS OF FACE!!!

I wittnessed some pretty amazing stupid stuff performed in that Lear program by some pretty amazing and stupid expats AND locals.

"Lenny's Amazing Flying Circus"

[addinfurnightem]

DANNY/CAPT. PPRUNE - The idea of a confidential reporting forum is great in theory, unfortunately countries who are sensitive about having their dirty washing put in the public eye will simply make the PPRuNe BB inaccessible!

[This message has been edited by addinfurnightem (edited 16 November 2000).]

[PILLOW]

Addinfurnightem

If what I read from various
postings by some ex-SIA first officers is true , then pprune BB is inaccessable from singapore

[This message has been edited by PILLOW (edited 16 November 2000).]

[Boeing666]

Hmm? We get PPrune perfectly well here in the RedDot. Why, if they block that, what would we have when we need a good laugh? Boeinglover, u wanna talk about it? Sure thing. How can I get in touch with u?

[boeinglover]

Boeing666,

Sure no problem, will pass you my ICQ number once I get the program setup on my PC.

Guys, pprune postings are very much available to us just by a click on the web page. So there isn't any problem about surfing pprune but there is a big risk for those who understand the system & law here. Agree guys.....

Regards,

[boeinglover]

Grapes, you have make it sounded like a nationality war issue here.

This posting is for discussion about the learjet & other mishap of SQ only not to cause an uproar about nationality what so ever. Irregardless of what nationality pilots of SQ come from, they are still highly regarded as trained & qualified pilots.

[addinfurnightem]

Boeinglover - we are talking about a whole new forum here, one dedicated to confidential reporting of incidents etc. If any Government decides it is not in their best interest then they will, for sure, block it. Yes, we who live here are well aware that there is a complete branch of the CID whose sole job is computers but at the moment I think they are more concerned with fraud and hackers.

[Boeing666]

no worries. ICQ is good cos i have it. u from YFC i presume? cheers...

Boh-eng 666

[boeinglover]

Boeing666,

My number is 93556017

Only used to but now no longer.

Cheers.

[FlyingCrew]

boeing and 666
i am from lion city, what is ICQ?
thanks!

[FlyingCrew]

BL and 666,
i am from lion city, what is ICQ nos?
thanks!

[Boeing666]

Hello FlyingCrew. ICQ is a kind of messaging system program available on the internet. If u want to know more about it, e-mail me at [email protected]. Where do u fly and for whom? cheers mate....

[boeinglover]

Hi guys, many have foresee that after the memorial services in Taiwan yesterday. SIA has gained lots of respect from the aviation industries & general public worldwide....
in turn hopefully will boost the SIA's Goodwill & corporate image to a higher level.

Good job SQ !!!

Cheers.

[titan]

BoeingLover:
what a load of dribble! You exhibit the same ostrich qualities that beleagure SIA. I suppose that as long as your SIA shares don't suffer too badly then you will remain content and happy.

"it is not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance , that is the foe of all knowledge"

[boeinglover]

Titan,

I am not speaking for myself. First of all I don't play shares, but many of my friends have huge amount of shares wif SIA & as shareholders they would not like to see the company shares falling like bird ****s after this unexpected incident. Even the general public locally & overseas have expressed confidence in SIA ( On TV ) despite the crash which perhaps could release some prospects & tight tension here for many of SIA's shareholders.

What's the problem wif you????

[PILLOW]

Boeinglover
Titan and a few others are angry
because of midlife career change and a hefty
fiscal penalty . I would be very angry too
if this happen to me .
I would probably throw all the
sh*ts I can and hope some will stick ; irregardless of secondary consequence .

[boeinglover]

Pillow,

I get what you mean ! but that is their problem... this is a free forum where people speak their mind or views. They can't just go around & "F" anybody just because of midlife career change or something bad has happened to their high-flying career. Come on wake up, be sensible & mature enough to do the right choice. There are also better paid jobs like lecturers etc etc to compare with pilots. I know a few who had made the career change & living happily after with higher wages to spend on.

Cheers.

[Crockett]

If I may quote a letter which appeared in one of the Singapore Media recently since it relates to the last few posstings in this thread..

I quote " In the aftermath of the SQ 006 crash, it is heartening to see so many Singaporeans rallying around in support of both the families and survivors of the accident. There have also been widespread support for SIA and praises sung of its handling of the incident.

Many have also started defending the actions of both SIA and its pilots even though the investigation is far from complete. As Singaporeans, we are naturally proud of SIA's past successes and enviable reputation. However, this is hardly the time to indulge in our nationalism and pride. The truth is that 82 people have so far died in this terrible tragedy. At this moment, the concern of the public as well as SIA should be placed on the welfare and support of the families. The impact to SIA's reputation and profitability should not be dwelled upon too much, especially in statements coming from its officials as well as our government. Doing so would only be trivialising the deaths and sufferings of those on board the flight and add greater misery to their families. These officials should also refrain from repeating the fact that this is SIA's first crash in 28 years. What comfort surely can the families draw knowing that their loved ones were "pioneers" in Sia's history ?" end quote...

The second half of the letter discusses possible management weaknesses in the airlines management and procedures and draws attention to the Silk Air crash and requests that the airline are indeed transparent this time around with regards the investigation. Unlike the SilkAir investigation..

Enough said at this time...

[PILLOW]

Boeinglover ,
they are still very angry . Who wouldnt be after paying out 6 figures penalty . What better place than cyberspace to hit back by throwing lots of SH*TS and hope some will stick .

Read the posting last 2 years and you will see what I mean . Most are quite entertaining actually . Though some are rather distasteful and disgusting .

So might as well enjoy their postings while they are still angry

Cheers

[boeinglover]

Pillow,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree that at times this forum would be a good way for those extraordinary pilots to release their stress...........after enduring so much of rubbish stuff from their respective Airlines. Sometimes we have to look at things at a different prospectives. This is life. And they do sucks at times.....

Cheers.

[boeinglover]

Guys, I believe it is only a matter of personal opinion of every individual towards SIA or even other Airlines. Some may find the SQ really sucks while some just love to get in. So now tell me what is love & hate!!!!

The best solution is for those who hate it, find a greener pasture to live on....and get on with life.

Those who enjoys flying for it, do well & excel in the career. For there would be wonderful moments to recall after retirement.

Good luck everbody.

BL.

[Rotary20B]

Hi, I am one of the sons of Capt Rod Blow, the training captain killed in Ranong in 1997.

All I have to say is that there was some suspect information in relation to the crash, and a majority of the Australian training pilots who contacted us the same opinion.

We know what really happened and that is what is important.

[TinyBrain]

Dear Rotary20B,

9 yrs had passed since then... hope everything is going well for you and your family.

Regards.

[Rotary20B]

Thank you SB.

I would also like to point out that I was told it was pilot error when I arrived in Singapore before flying to Phuket to join in the search for my father.

This was 3 or 4 days before the aircraft was even found.

The whole situation was a farce and we never heard from SIA again once we returned to Australia.

My father had over 16,000 hours experience and was a thorough professional.

[contrails747]

Hi Rotary 20B,

I had the privilege to fly with your Dad back in early 96 on the 31s. Yes he was very thorough and professional. What happened was truely sad. I hope that things are well with you and your family. Take care.

[hamil]

I know this is a sensitive subject but in fact what happened beside that report on aviation safety web page?
rgds

[greybeard]

I was fortunate to be one of Rod's fellow Instructors in 1990s on the 31, a finer fellow would be hard to find.
There are many variations to the possible explanation including fatigue, navigation, possible EFIS probs, brand new cadet etc.
I hope the Family have a closure on the matter, we as fellow Instructors were in the main excluded from access to any concrete information.
Aviation has no forgivness to error, complacency and sometimes genuine bad luck. The hairs on the back of my neck are raised again just reading this old posting now reopened.
Take care out there, gravity is one of the 100% efficient things in life.

Regards and respects to the family

Greybeard (those who need to know will know me)

[Al Fakhem]

[quote=boeinglover;302657]
Come on man this is a democractic society & we as paying commercial pax deserved to be well informed.
[quote]

Hmm, I think the various opposition politicians in Singapore who have been sued into bankruptcy by Lee Kuan Yew and his family would disagree :ugh:

[Rotary20B]

I was fortunate to be one of Rod's fellow Instructors in 1990s on the 31, a finer fellow would be hard to find.
There are many variations to the possible explanation including fatigue, navigation, possible EFIS probs, brand new cadet etc.
I hope the Family have a closure on the matter, we as fellow Instructors were in the main excluded from access to any concrete information.
Aviation has no forgivness to error, complacency and sometimes genuine bad luck. The hairs on the back of my neck are raised again just reading this old posting now reopened.
Take care out there, gravity is one of the 100% efficient things in life.

Regards and respects to the family

Greybeard (those who need to know will know me)

Hi RD,

Mum is reading this now and is pretty upset that you choose to bring up fatigue, error & complacency in regards to Dads "accident".

Let me ask you this.. why was the NTSB left out of the investigation when we were told they would be involved?

Why was I told that it was most likely pilot error before the aircraft was found?

Out of interest, were you given a copy of the final report?

It is totally out of character for my father to take short cuts as anyone who had flown with him has commented.

We would like closure but it is very hard to read comments on the internet discussing the accident when (as pointed out to the family) there are so many more inconsistancies.

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

Thank you SB.
I would also like to point out that I was told it was pilot error when I arrived in Singapore before flying to Phuket to join in the search for my father.
This was 3 or 4 days before the aircraft was even found.
The whole situation was a farce and we never heard from SIA again once we returned to Australia.

Rotary20B,

I am truly sorry for your loss.

I am not at all surprised by the treatment you received from Singapore Airlines. They are well known as shameful employers with not an ounce of compassion.

[greybeard]

Sorry I am not RD

We were ALL tired,
Rod was considered to be all that you have said and had personally briefed many of us as to the possible misleading display that could be presented into the particular port.
There had on previous days, and I believe that morning on the north bound sectors an EFIS glitch on the A/C.
I was never given the courtesy of being able to read the Official Report.
Regrettably that leads to misunderstanding, confusion and difficulty in closure for more than the immediate family.

It was not my intention, then or now to cause discomfort to anyone involved, only to ensure that the possibility of a similar situation was reduced.
Regrettably in even recent times, similar CFIT accidents still occur with the grief and difficulties for all concerned.

Other people there at the time will be aware of my efforts, personally costly, to that end.

Greybeard

[autoflight]

Hi, I am one of the sons of Capt Rod Blow, the training captain killed in Ranong in 1997.

All I have to say is that there was some suspect information in relation to the crash, and a majority of the Australian training pilots who contacted us the same opinion.

We know what really happened and that is what is important.

Are you the elder son? If so you and my son played together as 2 year olds. I lived near your parents in PNG. Lost contact with Pam and hope she is OK. You can send me a PM if you like.