FR Cadet Scheme vs Instructing for first job

[EK4457]

Just a quick 'back of fag pack' calculation comparing a Ryanair SSTR with FI Rating.

Disclaimer: This is purely a financial comparison, NOT a debate about how FR are driving down the industry etc...

FI Rating:

Cost: £6000. Plus other stuff (test fee, CAA fee, A/C hire for test etc) comes to around £7000.

Salary: £15,000 seems slightly above average. £11,000 after tax.

Hours (full time): Varies but usually no more than 500 per annum.

Overall position after 18 months: £16,500-£7,000 = £9500. 750 Hours (PA28)

Ryanair SSTR:

Overall cost: £25,000 all in (I believe).

Salary: 55e per block hour, going up to 75e above 500 hours on type. Approx 800 per year. Assume nothing earnt for 2 months, thus 1067 hours flown in 16 months: 70,000e, which is £55,000. £37,000 after tax.

Overall position after 18 months: 37000-25000 = £12,000. 1000+ hours (738).

In other words, within 12 - 18 months, the TR pays for itself when compared with instructing. The difference for the following 18 months after that is too ridiculous work out. Many tens of thousands I would guess.

I find this interesting as I've been advised to instruct for a year, then get an airline job without paying for my TR. This, however, will loose me money according to the above.

Are my figures realistic? I hope not!

Any thoughts?

EK

[IrishJetdriver]

As someone who "missed the boat" back in the late 90's I would say to watch out...there's a downturn about. maybe not a big one, but a downturn nonetheless. Admittedly I was in my early 30's and looking for my first commercial job although I did have 1800hrs instruction behind me.

If you can get in to a MAJOR carrier such as Ryanair as your first job then I think that is the way you should go. Let's say in 2 years time you are looking to get in to an airline, during a downturn with 1000hrs instruction? What might be the response? Lack of appropriate experience ? What if you want to change jobs with maybe 1800hrs 738? Don't think lack of experience will be an issue !

For me, I did get my first job in early 01 (thank God) and now work for Ryanair. The experience is incredible.....and I had 4000hrs jet when I came to Ryan.

I also believe that the type rating can be deducted from your tax which makes recovery of the investment relatively quick.

As a cadet with Ryanair you are not actually employed by them, but you are a self employed pilot working for Ryanair through a company in Ireland called Brookfield (Brookfield contract). If Ryanair ever wanted to let people go it would be very easy to reduce their pilot numbers by reducing the number of contracted pilots. I do believe however that it is not a particularly long process to be offered a full Ryanair contract, if you wanted it. You can choose to be on a Brookfield contract.

Finally, if Ryanair state that they can fly their entire schedule for 1 year without any passengers and still be in the black then they have to be a very safe place to be if the going gets tough. For me, for now, that's the best reason to be in Ryanair.

Good luck.

[leeds 65]

Very interesting alright and great post:D

I would go for FR.This is what iv heard

Negatives for FR:

1.Dodgy first 8 months to 1 year regarding pay and conditions
2.Paying for the type rating,license conversion to irish issue 330 euro,id passes,food,accom,test fees,extra training if needed,flights to training,uniform etc etc = 35000 EURO at least
3.Having to sort out your own tax affairs for a few months.annoying

Positives for FR:

1.After the initial months are over pay rises dramatically
2.Quick command.I have been told by reliable sources that after 2 years you can begin sim instruction,3-4 years get command,few years after line training captain.Basically major opportunities FAST
3.737-800 beats a crap smelly pa28 or cessna with a broken heater and a dodgy radio regardless of pay and conditions.Job Satisfaction YES!
4.You fly a lot of hours,maybe not 900 due to lots of new cadets(captains fly about the 900 alright),but yeah maybe 700-800.
5.Ryanatlantic=787 + airbus 350.nuff said

I would say your better off in 20 months time with FR as opposed to some flight school.However this is just my opinion,im not knocking instruction as a job(iv great respect for people who deal with crap students and flight school rubbish every day,and get the dream job in the end),its just me personally never wanted to do it.

[EK4457]

Thanks guys - just wondered what others thought. No matter which way you look at it, you are undoubtedly quids in with the FR scheme after 12 - 18 months. And, realistically, you have to assume that you will be instucting for that amount of time.

Even stranger, if you compare flyBE with FR, you are financially equal after 2 years and 15k - 20k better off with FR after three years (I'll show you my workings if you like). Again, you have to assume that you will be in your first job for roughly that amount of time.

As much as I dislike it, the FR scheme does pay well. Once you have been relived of 25k.

It really is a case of the penny or the principle......

[IrishJetdriver]

I was LHS 146 with JY and went to FR because of the pay. JY is a great company and they pay your type rating but the money is not great after a while. LHS 738 I am gbp1800 per month TAKE HOME better off. DHC8 is a good ship to start on and great experience, but take the 738 if you can, it is a meal ticket for the rest of your career !

[BerksFlyer]

5.Ryanatlantic=787 + airbus 350.nuff said

While there are plenty of positives, I'm not sure this is one to wish for.

[EK4457]

Why not? Seems a logical step if you ask me....

[Visual Calls]

Ryanatlantic=787 + airbus 350.nuff said

Minimum rest in airport hotels, constant fatigue, no recovery time between trips, fraction of the pay of everyone else of long-haul, yeah, sounds like a blast :rolleyes:
Be careful what you wish for. FR has f**ked conditions on short haul, if they get long-haul too there really will be nothing in aviation left to make it worthwhile.
Take a look at big picture before mouthing off.

[leeds 65]

hey hey hey hey,hold on a minute.What do you mean.Ryanatlantic will launch in 2012-2015 and they will be flying 787 or 350x (both or one of them) aircraft almost definately.wikapedia ryanatlantic and read.

if fr can do long haul like they did short,other airlines begin praying.People are going to fly to new york on there shopping trips by the cheapest means possible.

Why am i saying all this,well its very relevant to the post.IN MY VIEW,its a great time to join FR as by 2012-2015 you will have command and thousands of hours,and i wonder where ryanatlantic are going to look for experience.

I know its initially very harsh and a kick up the a** but I THINK now is a great time to pay for your 738 type and get an early foot in the door and hence get command in 3.5 years.do not instruct in my opinion.

[Visual Calls]

Wikipedia is self editing and is thus open to any rubbish. That article is pure supposition and innuendo. There is not a single fact in it. Do you really think that scaumair will have a trans-atl op set up by next year?
The low-cost model is predicated on oil below $100 a barrell. At the current prices FR will loose money this year. The money in the bank is irrelevant if the model doesn't work. Which it doesn't at oil above $100, as admitted by the head of EZY France 2 weeks ago.
How do you think FR will be able to provide €10 trans-atl fares when the cost of the Jet A1 alone to cross the pond is about $40,000 one way?
By offering business class you say? This from the no-customer-service airline, yeah right. Anyway, business people want to land in New York, not somewhere that is only New York in the imagination of MOL.
The only people who believe in "ryanatlantic" are naive wannabes, and MOL certainly doesn't.

[leeds 65]

Very well we will see what happens.Imagination you say.This came from MOL......!I did not say 2009 i said 2012-2015.Negotiations are ongoing with airfields in USA at the mo who want the business.Its all in the pipeline ,i never once said 2009.

[jiffajaffa]

back to the original thread!

Ryanair are one of the biggest carriers in Europe and its a fact, there not going anywhere and they are constantly expanding, if you get a chance and have the money then take it, aviation is a risky enough business and after spending so much to get you this far you might as well get yourself a job that will put you on the ladder and start paying the bills, alot of my mates are instructing and it is good experience but realistically the money is sh*t and anyone telling you otherwise is wrong! where im from 350 euro a week basic for a year??? you have to make 1500 euro per month extra to make a bonus and thats working your socks off flying 172's all day and night...

You start out with Ryanair on fairly crap pay but it gets better and your putting time in a JAR25 aircraft, if everyone was to believe the amount of sh*t people produce on these Ryanair threads then they would have noone working for them, gather opinions from people and work out the pros and cons that suit YOU the best, listen to the people who work with ryanair and the people who are instructing with flying schools.

Rant over and good luck with your decision!

[EK4457]

jiffajaffa: Thanks for the advice. And for getting back on thread.

Visual Calls: Please read the disclaimer in post #1 of this thread. I put it there for the likes of you.

EK

[leeds 65]

Yeah sorry for going off the point ,i got a bit annoyed earlier.

I second Jiffajaffas comment and EK4457 good luck

im outa this thread now!:ok: