Recruitment!

[Fireboy]

I wonder how many people are looking for airline jobs as I type this post?

I have been job hunting since August last year and the only job I have been offered is with Ryanair, but the 20k for a type rating was an issue for me. With the summer season on the doorstep I thought recruitment would be on a high and I'm now growing more concerned about my future in commercial aviation. I know from previous posts that jobs can take years to come by and I have only been waiting less than a year.

On a good note I recently passed the FIC and found work before I had even finshed the course and not just with one school but three! So there is large demand for instructors at the moment, its just a huge shame about the pay. I do realise that this shortage of instructors is mostly due to them leaving their training schools for the airlines so maybe I have done myself some good by doing the FIC and try working my way up the well oiled pole! On the other hand is this doing the training industry any good with instructors leaving for the airlines to be replaced by new FI's with low hours and not a great deal of experience like myself, but if that's the only way forward for low time guys I can't see the situation changing in the near future:ugh:.

[NOR116,20]

Fireboy,

Don’t give up!

Aviation has always been up and down and if you are really determined to get a job it’s just a matter of time it will be your turn. You are still in your 20s so time is not critical for you.
I was in my 30s and worked some 15 months as FI to wait for my first cockpit job. In these days it had already begun to become usual in some airlines to make new pilots pay their type rating when some smart managers turned training facilities into “profit centers”.
I never followed this questionable practice and made my way into the cockpit anyway.

There is already a global shortage of experienced pilots mainly induced by airline expansion in Asia. Consequently there will also be huge demand for inexperienced pilots. It’s just a matter of time.
Don’t pay the T/R yourself!

Good luck!

[Fireboy]

NOR116,20

There is no way on this earth I would pay for my own TR, I don't understand why someone would want to pay to work.

I know this would never happen but if anybody thinking of doing a SSTR said sod it, you(the airline) pay for my TR then I'm sure that would cause a stir.

[Callsign Kilo]

Fireboy, why did you waste your hard earned cash on the FR Assessment if you were never going to take up the offer? :confused:

However, well done on getting your FI rating. The FIC is one of the best decisions I ever made, both challenging and rewarding.

[CruiseControl_007]

Fireboy,

Just out of curiosity did you go Integrated or Modular?

Not trying to startup another boring debate between the two but I'm just curious.

Thanks.

[Flying Farmer]

Callsign Kilo not everyone pays for a FR assessment :ok:

[Fireboy]

Callsign Kilo (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=103203) I went to one of FR's open days to make my own decision about the company and from what I listened to on the day I was sucked in! I went for the assessment and passed, but it wasn't until my contract was emaied to me that I changed my mind. It's funny how someone can sell you a job!

I'm very pleased I done the FIC, I find it very rewarding.


CruiseControl_007 I done a modular course.


Fireboy

[Fireboy]

The low pay is not a problem, I already have a full-time job and I'm instructing part-time which suits me because I only work 14 shifts a month so that leaves the rest of the days to teach.

I really do like teaching so a job with Oxford and with a decent wage could be an alternative to the airlines.

Thanks for the great comments.:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The £20k outlay for the RYR SSTR would have netted you about £1700 a month in more pay (as a typical fill time FIC which I understand you are not). Therefore after 12 months you would have 900hrs on a B737-800 instead of an FIC and financially would be no worse off.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

I loathe the rise of the SSTR but its here, widespread and not going to disappear anytime soon.

WWW

[MIKECR]

Its 25k for TR, no pay for 3 months, half pay for next 6 months and finally full pay after 9 months. All travelling, accommodation costs etc are your responsibility during your training(including all line training etc). Its a very expensive commitment.

[Fireboy]

MIKECR That is all correct.

When I started my current job I was paid from the day I started training, my accommodation and meals were paid for, come on chaps no pay for three months!!! I still have a copy of my FR training contract with details of the training pay and believe me when I tell you I would have been sleeping in my car most nights! I know of some FR pilots that do this on a regular basis whilst line training because they can't afford to run their cars or pay for a B&B...etc. Just imagine you and your family sitting in the back of an FR 737 and the brand new FO has had a few hours sleep...think about it!! Personally I would be off loading myself.

I know the long term pay is good and it would have been the first steep on the ladder but I just wasn't willing to fork out all that cash, and I know it's a career that I want but you have to draw the line somewhere. The FIC was the best thing I've done so far and I don't regret it and it only cost me £5K. If a career opportunity was to present itself then fantastic but I have realised that I could be instructing for a few years or more before I get that first airline job.:\

Fireboy

[student88]

Fireboy, you've done what's best for your in your situation. Some people don't understand that some things don't suit other people as well as they suit themselves.

S88

[jamestkirk]

For anyone to say, 'its better to go and pay for a type rating'.

You may not or be able to get 20 odd grand.

[Fireboy]

student88 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=206499) Thats very true and I couldn't agree more. At the moment I believe I've made a good decision but only time will tell!

Fireboy

[Dreamshiner]

Forgive me Fireboy, but surely attaining your FI qualification is paying for work (as you put it) with the associated training costs and in the same vein as buying a TR? Granted the FI a considerable bit cheaper. However, with respect to paying to work, every pilot who hasn't been sponsored in the UK (that figure must now be getting close to getting counted on a small abacus) has effectively paid to gain employment.

Don't really understand your logic but I do agree with you that you go with whatever route suits your character, financial circumstances, family commitments, etc.

Glad you picked an option that suited you and you appear to be enjoying it.

[sparx007]

My opinion Fireboy is you should have taken the SSTR......ok the intial outlay is large but you won't care about that in a few years when you are earning some very good money!!!!! Discounting your other job the maths is clear.........Pay £25k earning say just £20k for 2 years......you are £15k up.....FIC £5k earning £6k for 2 years you are £7k up.....or infact £8k down!!!!! as has been said...peoples do what they do for their own situations and i can't knock that.....what happens though when you go for an interview in a few years with 800 hours and the airline says 'we will still need you to pay for your type rating'????

[glideslope active 2]

It's right different people have different reasons, at this moment in the airline cycle an FI rating is a safer bet.
I know of 2 few people who have just a type rating with no line hours and are still looking for work. They have their annual line checks coming up just to keep current, which isn't cheap. If you can risk the money that a type rating costs go for it, if not choose the one you can financially afford.

[Dakotablue]

Hi Fireboy,

Congrats on the FIC. I've been looking at doing an FIC course myself. Would you recommend the place where you did yours?

There are plenty of schools offering courses, but I just want to find some with a good reputation.

Good luck with the instructing!

[Fireboy]

I did the FI course at Andrewsfield Aviation, Essex. The CFI and FI instructor is Carol Cooper, you can find them on the net or give them a call, 01371856744.

Stapleford is another good school with experienced FI instructors, also on the net or 01708688380

Fireboy.

[Vortex Thing]

Sorry Fireboy but have to agree with numerous points above.

You paid for your own FI course (ergo self funded a rating).

You chose not to self fund another type of rating i.e 737 300-900 but the difference of pay over the next 5 years to you are incomparable.

Are you seriously saying that it took you until you physically saw the FR/Brookfields arrangements to work out how FR were going to treat you financially.

The reason I ask is because there is literally thousands of posts on FR and the Ts&Cs available on numerous websites. It should hardly have come as a surprise!

As for the OATS comment OATS is now OAA but that aside all the SEPs are in the US now so unless you happen to have a green card lying about you are going to have to get a little more than 500hrs. You will need to have your restriction lifted, okay by 500hrs instructing you probably will have that.

Then you need 30hrs P1 on MEP (9k@£300ph) to become a CRI then need , then the applied instruments cse to teach IR(£1.5k). Then realistically 700hrs TT min so the insurance company is happy but in reality if you have much less than 1500hrs TT (100hrs MEP) you will probably struggle with the work.

You should be able to get most of that done AT your own expense for about 12-15k. Then they may if you are lucky and someone with 2hrs more TT doesn't apply the day before you give you a job. Oh don't forget that whilst you are doing that you will need to pay your own, medical, uniform costs, upgrade/restriction removal costs, examiners fees, IR renewals, etc

Please come back to me when you work out how that was better than just paying for the TR and walking into what can only be described as the closest to a guaranteed job in the market?
VT

[wheelie my boeing]

To those of you saying he should have gone to Ryanair;:mad:
If he had paid out the 20k, he would then be relying on NOTHING dramatic happening in aviation over then next 9 months or so. He would be on a Brookfields contract and from what I understand that means they can terminate your employment without much notice (if any ??). So, and whilst it is an unlikely scenario, if Ryanar suddenly found that far less people were flying, our friend here would find himself ANOTHER 20k (although if you read the figures it's actually more than 20k) down and having paid for a uniform := that he now wouldn't be able to use!

Congrats on the FI rating... Sounds to me like you made the right choice.
Good luck!

[Vortex Thing]

Wheelie my Boeing that is absolutely correct he would be taking a gamble.

He/she seemed okay with taking the shall I invest 60k in a career that may have a job at the end of it gamble though. You are correct the Brookfield contract is not secure at all but he will gain 89 hours every month on 738 with FR so as long as the market holds out for another 6 months then chances are by Xmas he would have been 500hrs plus on type which would pretty much guarantee him a winter contract with the agencies worst case scenario.

If the whole industry goes down the shebang well we're all in it past our necks aren't we.
VT

[leeds 65]

look lets face the music ,most jobs require either money up front for a TR or being bonded for god knows how long.Bite the :mad: bullit and get a job asap ( as long as you can afford too of course).

I cant stand people comin on here and knocking people who pay for TRs

2 scenarios:
1. You pay for a TR and work hard,you get a nice position
2.You wait around a bit,do an FI course,work for a flight school for a bit and then BANG you send cvs out but no reponses.

People considering doing FI now are staring a long time instructing in the face if we are to believe WWW's predictions.If you are in a position to get a loan or pay for a TR,then in the current climate its a safer bet to a job in a reasonable time frame.

If WWW is right with the economic outlook,then in my eyes your losing a hell of alot more money by going down the FI route=pay for FI,earn buttons,fly crap ,deal with flight school crap,pay living expense,and then the big one= once your getting sick of the flight school mode you send cvs waiting for a job for ages whilst earning f all.That does not make economical sense to me. :ugh:

[Jetgate]

Fireboy, I completely support your decision..... Well done and wish there were more like you :ok:

All the very best for the future!

[Dakotablue]

Thanks for the info Fireboy!

[smith]

What's the best, integrated or modular?

















HA ha ha ha, just kidding

[Fireboy]

VORTEX. I done the FIC because of my personal situation, you have to realise that different people want different things, we're not all the same!

For the FR TR I needed around £25k and for the FIC I needed £5200. I don't know your personal situation but from the way you come across it seems very different to mine. The FR training pay wouldn't even cover my monthly out goings and don't forget FR are so tight they don't pay you during the TR.

I understand that I would be getting alot of experience with FR but I'm more than happy instructing part-time and keeping my full-time job to pay the bills. :oh:

[Fireboy]

Cheers Wingo:ok: