Advice regarding Deposit

[Direct_to]

Hey guys,

A couple of months ago I booked in my MECIR with a well known FTO. They asked for $1000 deposit which would secure my spot, which was reasonable, and sent me out some text books. I asked the secretary if anything changed and I had to pull out could I get the money back. She said that is fine, as long as I gave them a few months in advance notice they would minus the cost of books etc and transfer the remaining balance. But if I did it the day before or something I would loose the deposit which sounded fair too.

Well the other pilot at my work just got a new job, so I cannot leave for the 4 weeks I was intending on taking off - therefore had to pull out of doing my MECIR in July and now don't know when I can do it. I rang back a couple of months in advance and told them my change in circumstances and have they said I was told the wrong information and this deposit is "non-refundable".

Just wondering if anyone can give me advice if they are in the wrong here or do they have the right to do this.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help :ok:

[Lasiorhinus]

Aside from the oft-quoted "never never never pay upfront for anything in aviation", I'd recommend changing your booking to a later date, even six months later, and asking them to roll over your $1000 to be the deposit for that booking.

If they refuse, and want you to pay another $1000, ask to see the piece of paper that has both the statement that the deposit is non-refundable in any circumstances, and your signature. That's the only bit of paper that would prevent you from legally recovering your money.

And don't ever pay upfront for anything in aviation ever again :=:E There are plenty of exceptionally high quality instrument schools in Australia that do not require deposits.

[lk978]

Revenge is sweet... dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

Post the school name or send me a message with the name of the school, i am sick of these types of operators in this industry

[Direct_to]

Thanks Lasiorhinus,
Yeah I should of learnt by now not to pay anything up front :ugh: I guess I was just eager since I had heard you have to book in early for this place!

They did say I can transfer to another date, but since I don't know when this would be, or things might even change in the next 6-12 months and I might not do it there, it'd be better having the money back in the bank since it is a lot of money to me.

My problem is there was nothing signed, just a telephone conversation saying I could get the deposit back, but now I want it back they are saying it is non-refundable! I can understand if I did it the day before and cost them a spot, but it is 3 months in advance (and they have already replaced me lol)
I guess I am just wondering is this legal for them not to return it even though they told me they would. (Two different secretarys told me 2 different things)

I don't want to post the name of the school as I am hoping they will do the right thing, but I guess we'll see what happens

[Jabawocky]

Post their name............

We can all start phoning up asking them what their poloicy is:}

They will soon get the message, or just talk to your boss and say when can we book me out for 4 weeks of training and DO IT.

J

[Lasiorhinus]

Perhaps try some positive, friendly ways of either getting your money back, or moving your booking first, before getting vindictive.:hmm:

If and only if you are unsuccessful, your credit card company can often help.
If that is also unsuccessful, a bit of paperwork lodged with the magistrate's court in the state in which the flying school is located is the simplest method of legal action.
Procedures vary from state to state - I see you are in Melbourne, so I guess the school in question is also in Victoria.
PM me if you want some specific info.

[tail wheel]

Office of Fair Trading in your State!

[apache]

AND... keep written records of when you first asked for it back etc, as you may be able to claim interest on it when it gets settled!

[Direct_to]

Thanks for all the help guys it's very much appreciated! :ok:

Since the FTO is in another state it is hard for me to visit them, so I will give the department of fair trading a call and see what they have to say about the matter. But i'd prefer it not to turn into a legal matter, hopefully common sense will prevail! (i'm dreaming right?) :}

[Capt Wally]

Some good advice here 'Direct_to' But do look into it more before you post a name. If it does come to that (name telling) 'cause you have no other option for some sort of satisfaction the adverse publicity will go a long way to hurting them & in this dirty business of aviation SHTI sticks big time ! The few dollars theyn think they have from you could work very much against them!
Do yr research first tho, am sure a lot in here would be busting to know who the Co is.
Good luck, you will be wiser after the event that's for sure, charactor building stuff.

CW

[urkidnme]

Direct To.

I looked into your deposit question this morning on your behalf.
I learnt that the secretary did tell you prior to your posting here that she would ask the owner of the company today on his return if he could consider reimbursing your non refundable deposit,which she had done before I brought this to their attention.

The non-refundable deposit came into effect last year when it was realised that an average of $75,000 was lost each year on empty course placements due to late notice cancellations.
In aviation, and with pilots on above award salaries $75,000 is quite a lot to lose in a 12 month period,the $1000 deposit only goes a very short way into helping pay wages.
The other answer is to increase the course costs to cover the $75,000 of lost income,that means that every customer on the course would have their courses increased by $800 each which given the changes in fee structure due to fuel increases that isnt fair either.
The deposit is simply that,your commitment that you will do your very best to make that date,if you cant it is happily transferrable to another date,without question,as was mentioned.
On the other hand the school makes a commitment to each customer also when a deposit is accepted,they commit to having an instructor available to you on that date and for the next 4 weeks,a simulator free for you to start on that date,accommodation provided for 4 weeks starting that date,an aircraft ready and available and all the other things that come into planning that your course runs smoothly,it can be challenging for Ops but the company holds their reputation in high regards along with their standards.

It has been confirmed again this morning that it is the "aussie thing to do" to refund your deposit minus the course text books IF they can fill your position on the course.
At present there are 2 people with their names down as interested on that date however they havent confirmed their placement with a deposit.
They will be contacted and asked if they are commiting to that date and hopefully your part deposit can be refunded.

Looking at all the facts I dont feel the company has at any time done the wrong thing by you or why they would have given the wrong information in the first place.....

They will do their best for you as they always do by their customers.:ok:

[Direct_to]

Thanks heaps urkidnme! I didn't expect anyone to go out of your way to look into it for me but your help is appreciated!

I understand that a company can lose money from people pulling out, hence I let them know 3 months in advance so they could fill my spot. As I said before I was told there would be no problem if I gave warning in advance if anything changed, which unfortunately it has. I was told my spot had already been filled (maybe it was only guys had shown interested) - therefore there would be no loss to the company.

I just came here to get any advice if I could get the deposit back from people more in the know, and everyone has been very helpful :ok:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

It has been confirmed again this morning that it is the "aussie thing to do" to refund your deposit minus the course text books IF they can fill your position on the course.


NOT GOOD ENOUGH - you can't, even if you wanted to, now introduce the "IF we can fill your position" clause.

Don't be tempted to think they're nice guys because of this condition - if they didn't refund your deposit after filling your place that would confirm that they're crooks!

They took a deposit, they didn't attach any conditions to it other than 'securing your place', they owe you the money. Don't settle for anything less.......

UTR

[Capt Wally]

Further to my previous post you could when it's all finished & you have got yr money back simply have nothing further to do with them. That alone will hurt them if only in a small way. I know yr just one person but if they are 'crook's as some have said here their reputation is fast heading south!
You have also done yr fellow pilots a service here by opening up & genuinely asking for advice. The service you have done is perhaps made aware to others that might be thinking of doing the same thing be more informed. At the end of the day it's more their loss than yrs.
TY


CW

[flyhardmo]

Direct to.

Nice guys or not. As has been said before if you haven't signed anything with specific conditions stated on it that YOU have agreed to, then they CANNOT LEGALLY hold your money without your consent. Call consumer affairs for advice, you might get some good ammo.
My suggestion is first to send a letter then to call up the company, DO NOT discuss anything with the secretary and talk directly to the owner/manager. State your case that based on the information you were given you have done the right thing by them however nothing was signed if they could kindly refund my money. If not then calmly state that you believe that you are not being treated fairly and that you will sought legal action. Don't get angry is the key but know your rights.

My advice No.2: You seem like a nice guy. Nice guys get stepped on in this industry. It happeded to me and sometimes the çun+ in you has to step out and take charge.. Good luck.

[urkidnme]

Just to clarify...
I am partner to someone who works there and I am quite familiar with the policies of the company as I use to work there myself.
The deposits have been non-refundable for some time,thats why they are deposits...just like a house deposit,if you dont go through with the sale then you lose the deposit.This is policy for many companies in varied industries and I dont see a problem with that at all....as I said they make a commitment to you and you to them.

If you knew the people involved in the day to day operations there is no possible way you or the thousands of people whom they have trained could consider them to be the letter "C" in the word crook.
I can see though that maybe they need to follow the american way and make you sign an agreement rather than discuss the deposit,that way both sides involved knows the policy and there are no grey areas.:hmm:

[Lasiorhinus]

urkidnme,

I'm sure the staff are all nice people - but they can act with all the best intentions in the world and still be breaching the Trade Practises Act.

Aviation seems to be the last haven of companies that operate on verbal agreements, and believe that the nature of aviation somehow exempts them from normal procedure.

I'm sure the staff are all nice people, but without a signed agreement, theres no legal way they can keep the money with this much notice!

[Clearedtoreenter]

One lesson I learned a long time ago... 'if it isn't written down, it didn't happen.' Give him his dough back and be clear and upfront if you must play it that way.... (and write it down)

[Direct_to]

"I can see though that maybe they need to follow the american way and make you sign an agreement rather than discuss the deposit,that way both sides involved knows the policy and there are no grey areas" :ok:

I totally agree with you urkidnme! If both sides involved knew the policy and there were no grey areas the would be no problem at all. I think there was just mis-communication on the deposit being non-refundable. When I asked, I was told it was refundable as long as I gave advance warning. Obviously this was the wrong information I was told, and not your company policy. But since I was told differently, I find it unfair for them to keep the deposit.

There has been a lot of great help from people on here, and I really appreciate it. I was told to do my MECIR there by many GA and airline pilots who spoke very highly of the FTO and it has a very good reputation, so in their defence I am sure they are not crooks but this is all just a misunderstanding.

I appreciate all the legal advice too, but I'd really rather not have to go there if I don't have to. To me it's something really simple to fix :ok:

[urkidnme]

Direct To.
Yes you are right also,this has been a misunderstanding and a pity it ended up in the pprune ring...still you felt you needed help and at the end of the day both sides have been given some great advice for the future.

I hope you all understand though that customer care is taken very seriously at this FTO.There are many examples but one worth a mention was when at short notice the instructors had to be pulled out from training for a 4 day course,this then had an effect on the students that were there as they were then 4 days behind schedule.
All students at the time were given another weeks accommodation free plus a 5% discount on the entire course cost as a thankyou for their patience,the company wasnt obliged to do so nor were they asked,they just felt it was the right thing to do.I actually think they organised to do a few flights over that following weekend to lesson the impact on the students.
Not such a bad bunch.;)

[Lasiorhinus]

Wow - thats the kind of behaviour from a business that should guarantee repeat customers, and through word of mouth, an increase in business.

Wish there were more businesses that prioritised people as much as this.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I don't know the people or the company involved here, but I'm glad that urkidnme has taken the trouble to detail the losses that are incurred by late cancellations and no shows. Few people realise the opportunity cost of potential bookings turned away,and an aircraft and instructor left sitting idle.

A small deposit has just about eliminated the problem for us. The only other option was to include the losses in the hourly rate for the reliable folk, not really a fair way to go. Some industries will charge you for the whole lot even if you don't turn up (some driving schools and riding schools for example, and hire car companies) though it is a bit hard to collect the fees from someone who is absent - hence deposit in advance.

Can see both sides of the argument here, but it does seem only reasonable to get the deposit back if they can fit in someone else in your place. Hope you can settle it amicably, this is a small industry after all; and all realise the importance of ensuring the tems are fully explained and understood at the time of payment.

Good luck!

[Capt Wally]

Direct_to, simply put, yr too damn nice, that's odd in aviation:E, harden up a little otherwise in aviation you will be stepped on!
Aviation & 'handshakes' (as in non signed documents) just don't mix!
Go about getting yr money back quietly as suggested here, at first, then be a man if they don't play fair & bring then down!



CW

[Pera]

they would minus the cost of books etc and transfer the remaining balance

Assuming that this means a refund, and you are not referring to transferring the balance to another course, then you should be entitled to a refund. You have entered a verbal contract with the FTO which states that you get a refund if you give them sufficient notice. You seem to have acted reasonable and your actions have given the FTO every opportunity to minimise any loss.

If you haven't signed anything contrary to this, write them a letter (you can email a copy but make sure you post it too) politely stating what you
were told when you made the deposit and making it clear what you are asking for. Make the letter simple and short. No need for an essay. You should give a reasonable time limit and state what your intentions are if they do not reply. Your intentions would usually be to lodge a complaint with your state 'office of fair trading.' This is not legal action.

Check your state 'office of fair trading' or 'consumer affairs' website for a sample letter.

It makes no difference what the company's policys are, only what you were told. Don't rely on any further verbal communication with the company (or any promises made on this site). If they ring you, ask them to verify any promises they make in writing, and don't call off any consumer affairs action until you have your money back. If their policy is as rock tight as mentioned in previous posts, then they should have got you to sign a contract stating the policy.

The deposits have been non-refundable for some time,thats why they are deposits...just like a house deposit,if you dont go through with the sale then you lose the deposit.This is policy for many companies in varied industries and I dont see a problem with that at all....as I said they make a commitment to you and you to them.

This is incorrect information. The conditions of a deposit depend on the agreement entered into. I'm sure you didn't sign anything that looked like real estate contract. A house deposit can be refunded for all sorts of reasons.

Most important, always act reasonably. Don't get angry and don't make threats. You have substantial rights under consumer affairs regulations and you don't need to damage their business to get your money back.

Of course if you have signed a contract or you were told that the deposit was not refundable, or there was conditions to it's refund, then you may have a much harder time getting your money back. Based on your first post, you should be fine.

[Capt Wally]

oh no..........the spelling/grammar Nazi's are out in force:bored:, see told ya 'Direct_to', harden up or you'll get stood on !:bored:
Once you have yr money back get back to the task at hand here, learning that aviation is full of traps for the 'nice':)


CW

[lk978]

Why should a junior pilot pay for a business's poor planning and course management.

simple economics:

cost of course / participants + 25% for drop outs = price for course

If the company cannot runn effectively under this policy then they have to take a good look at themselves.

Tell them to deal with it and, never pay up front for anything in aviation.