Oxford integrated

[leeds 65]

hi how are ya.Listen im just wondering what the standards are like regarding the integrated course:

how many people fail on average and then have to do modular or find a new job path?
And how do they fail you,for example:if you arent solo by lets say 15-20 hrs do you get the chop?or if you dont have the ppl by 55 hrs do you get cut?Or you fail a good few exams do they throw you to modular?

By the way im finished via the modular route( and no im not starting one of those effin debates!) and startin with an airline pretty soon.its just i was always curious as to how high the standards are in oxford,and are they ruthless towards poor performance or would they keep you on ,even though the student struggles,in order to earn more cash,like many modular schools would?if people on the inside share anything that would be interesting.

[Nathan.Hunter]

cutting you loose when your the one paying a lot of money is harsh in my book!

i cant answer your question though as i dont know? (uni engineering student thinking of going modular when he gets a job)

How did you find your route (through modular? did you try for intergrated?)

Also why is there all this tension between people going intergrated and people going modular? its stupid!

[Rugbyears]

Leeds 65 - Well done, you have a promise of an Airline Job at the age of 20, not that many manage that these days. However, I wouldn't worry about others on the intergrated course, each situation is assessed on their own merits.

[clanger32]

Nathan,
in fairness, Oxford do cut loose very very few students...I think it's in the region of about 6-10 per year, from all phases.

However, Oxford have a scheme whereby if you "can't/don't" make the grade all the way up to the CPL exam (I think it is - it fairly recently changed from PT1 - effectively the PPL skills test) they will refund your costs of training (I think minus the ATPL theory costs), so actually the worst you lose is about £4.5k for the theory and the time out you've taken to progress to whatever point. Hence why they try and ensure that everyone has the aptitude before embarking on the course - I'm sure they don't want to be writing refund cheques too often!

[mini-jumbo]

Clanger, are you sure about the refund? I know it has changed since I was there, however my understanding was that the refund was for the training that you were yet to receive at the point that training terminated?

[Rugbyears]

Mini-jumbo - That's correct, a refund is only offered for remaining training only...

[clanger32]

Ok, I need to check this as I can't immediately find the answer, but legally I suspect OAA would not have a leg to stand on if they took the decision to terminate someones training and then did not refund any money that had been on account for services not yet received - i.e. for training they haven't [yet] provided.

Therefore, if the skills security program covered that alone, then it's not really anything additional. Given that this forms a fairly large chunk of the loan application procedure, I don't think OAA would publicise it so heavily if it only met their minimum legal requirements. Therefore, I'm pretty certain that it DOES cover all flying expenses up to PT3 (as shown here) http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?t=4332&highlight=skills+security

I will however check and post back.

[Adios]

Mini-Jumbo and Rugbyears are both incorrect.

"...we offer our SKILLS SECURITY guarantee (terms and conditions apply) for Integrated APPFO student pilots. Under this scheme, we undertake to repay the entire training costs (including remedial training) for any student who fails during the course at any stage up until the CPL Skills Test (PT3) - which concludes the Foundation Flight Training phase at Goodyear."

The fine print seems to be:
"SKILLS Security does not cover: APPFO Deposit, Accommodation and food, CAA Test/Exam fees, Airfares , items of uniform and personal equipment (e.g. flight bag etc). Full terms and conditions for SKILLS SECURITY guarantee are available in our terms and conditions booklet."

It's kind of buried on their website. I don't think the mods would like it if I post a link, so go to Training courses, click the link for skills protection plan, then the link for skills security. It has several examples for what amount you'd get back at various points.

[clanger32]

Or maybe I won't post back, because I've been beaten to it....
thanks Adios - saves me a job!

[Rugbyears]

In that case I stand corrected, I am rather surprised – However, hats off to Oxford..!

[Impress to inflate]

I was at OAT 12 years ago and did a deal with them. I told them I was paying for the course out of my hard earned and that the moment they thought I would not pass, I was to be booted off the course ASAP so I would not be wasting my time and money. 12 years later and all going well in the world. I found OAT to be very fair and up front, even when they made a cock up, they put it right at there cost.

[Adios]

The money back guarantee is probably a double edged sword. In an effort to avoid having to write refund checks, they probably reject a certain percentage who are capable of getting through. It does make me wonder about the veracity of the occasional post I see here that if you waive a £60,000 cheque in front of them they'll take you though.

[mini-jumbo]

I too stand corrected.

[justaaron]

how did yourself and OAT resolve the issue?

[bajadj]

I think the wave 62k at them and they'll take you does stand to a certain extent. All this talk of selection and testing is for the skills protection.

If a candidate passes selection and it all goes tits up for them then as discussed above, the student is refunded the cost of the training not yet taken.

If a candidate fails selection this does NOT mean that they are rejected from joining the integrated course, it means if it goes tits up for them then they are not entitled a refund.

I'm pretty certain that OAA will make this very clear to a student who has failed selection but as far as i'm aware WILL take them on an APP course if they "wave 62k under their noses".

All this stuff about failing selection and not being allowed into the integrated course is guff. They will take you, but if you mess it up you're screwed.

[clanger32]

Bajadj,
wrong. Or at least to some extent. You do HAVE to pass the selection process to be offered a place on the course. You cannot fail the selection and continue on to the integrated course. For some people who pass the selection, but achieve marginal marks in doing so, the offer of a place may be made without the benefit of the security package, but if you fail the selection totally, then no amount of zeros waved under Oxfords nose will get you on the integrated course. Well, I say that, but I'm sure Anthony Pettefords business brain would kick in and he'd find a way if you waved quite a lot of zeros at him....but the cheque would certainly require a lot more than 5 figures.

Likewise, the skills security refund does not apply "only" to any training costs that you have paid "on account" which you have not been provided(which, as discussed earlier would pose a very sticky legal situation for OAA should they not refund that part anyway), it applies to all costs of training undertaken up to PT3. If you follow the instructions Adios posted earlier in the thread, the examples show exactly how much this could be worth....and it is basically all fees you've incurred up to PT3, minus about £8k. Which is still better than any other FTO offers in terms of guarantees..