English Please!

[Mike_76]

Hi all,

I work for a "EUROPEAN" airline, and recently heard whispers that at work the only language I am supposed to use is ENGLISH. Not obeying this rule, will see the employee in question being called up and punished.

I understand in our business that, in the cabin, the company may prefer their employees speak english in front of passengers. That is their right

HOWEVER ------->

WHAT gives a company the right to insist on ENGLISH being spoken elsewhere at work (i.e briefing room / canteen before going out to the aircraft).

This is nothing short of racial intolerance, but I suspect it is more to do with paranoia, whereby management are suspicious of what is being talked about, or maybe so uneducated that they are just not capable of understanding a language other than english.


Your Comments please,

Thanks,
A Frustrated EUROPEAN :)

[fox niner]

Don't worry mate.

You can disregard that statement by your employer. (Which airline is it?) In Europe you may speak any language you would like. For all normal day-to-day communications between people there are no restrictions. The only language restrictions that an employer can dictate are all technical communications, these must be in English.
- checklist reading
- flying the airplane (set speed two five zero/ gear down/start right engine/ etc)
- AML entries must be in english
- the like.....

but small talk at FL350 about the color of the underwear you are wearing may be done in Cherokee if you like.;)

[beamer]

You are obviously not German, French or British for no pilots I know from those nations would ever categorise themselves as European !

[Mike_76]

FoxNiner - I agree,
but employees have been dragged into the office,
raised voices stating that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE are they to speak any language BUT English. or otherwise face the consequence.

European, yes I am, BEAMER Spanish too....but for a European Airline to enforce such a rule is nothing short of criminal

[4PW's]

You're right; I am uneducated.

I write, speak and understand one language, sadly, though whilst on duty in Shanghai recently, I did attempt to learn Mandarin through a professional organization.

One thing I do know, mostly through experience, is that I can make a fool of myself in only one language, whereas you, given you speak many languages, are in a position to make a fool of yourself in many.

English is the international language of aviation.

Now that ICAO has mandated all professionals in critical areas of aviation be measured in and maintain a standard of English Proficiency in order to operate in their capacity as pilot, ATCO etc, you may find this to be the reason your company has mandated you speak English in all areas of the workplace.

I was recently with a company whose Ops Manual stated that 'English is to be used on the flight deck'. They were ahead of their time.

As to why ICAO mandated English Proficiency as a requirement to hold a license to operate in critical areas of aviation, it would appear to be due to the measurable fact that of all incidents and accidents we've endured as an industry, a high percentage continues to be a consequence of a breakdown in communication.

Result: English Proficiency tests for all.

Be glad it wasn't Mandarin Proficiency.:E

[Mike_76]

I take your point 4PW
however I am not talking about communication related to work!!
English Language Prof. is a totally different subject.


instead I am talking about in the canteen for example, chatting with friends, catching up with any "scandal" at work etc etc. crazy night outs the list goes on,


and if we do want to communicate with friends, ENGLISH only, so they KNOW what we did on our crazy nites out no doubt :)

believe it or not, the company will NOT allow us speaking in our native language...

[fox niner]

they can not do that in the EU.

Sue them. (probably wise via your Pilot's Union)

[kbrockman]

Agree 100%.

Sadly ,also many native English (or Aussie or American,...) could use such a test.

[Mike_76]

well i would love to see what they could do since it goes against one of the most basic civil rights of an individual...

trying to suspend the person for example.....
hmmm union ,i might give them a call


is what they are implementing illegal,
the local aviation authority i am sure wouldnt be happy with this situation...

[chrisbl]

But just think about it. If you use English in the workplace other than on the aircraft, your English proficiency would be enhanced and take you well beyond the minimum for flight ops.

Rather than see it as a problem, see it as an opportunity for all in the airline to improve their English and perhaps improve their employability.

[Mike_76]

Guys and Girls

to be clear this is NOT a thread about the english prof test required to fly
it is about the following
off the aircraft
at work
in the crew room / canteen
talking to colleagues in a language other than english!!!!!

I dont think anyone needs to improve their language if they are able to go through training and communicate at work. You wouldnt speak spanish at home if you are russian.

[Skydrol Leak]

When you are on a company ground; canteen, apron, changing room etc...it is still a company who owns or rents that place therefore you are to obey their regulations. "English only" is mostly to show the respect to other people not talking your native language as If you would put yourself in the middle of Rwanda and listen to Swahili, kinnda weird right?
So don't get to emotional with this,the English is the most spoken language amidst the international crews anywhere...so this doesn't come as a surprise.

[CEJM]

Mike_76,

The company that you are talking about are they based in your home country?

I (Dutch) work for a British company and the company employs several of my countrymen. Whenever I am on the staff bus from the car park to the office or in the office, I will always speak English even to my countrymen. Nothing has been said by the company but I have chosen to come and work in the UK and therefore I have to adapt to them, not the other way around.

What the human rights activist etc. say I don't care. For me it is common sense and it shows some respect for my colleagues.

[Mike_76]

I take your point SKYDROL however,
If i shop in LIDL do you expect me to speak GERMAN
ich bin auslander und spreche nicht...."" Im showing off, but seriously

ask any solicitor and he or she will explain that when you are talking about civil rights, management who restrict freedom of speaking their native language in a informal setting as the work canteen is down right in breach of a person basic civil rights
YES infront of pax, where you are within earshot of your farepaying passengers etc. where company income may be affected, I do agree with an Engish only rule,
BUT
threatening staff with this gagging order I would think places the company on dodgy ground.

:mad:


CEJM
i know where you are coming from,
you are showing respect as do I

i speak english when english speaking people are within my company...
but when speaking to native spanish speakers, i expect my company would ALLOW and give me permission to talk to them in the language that I grew up with,

[WorkingHard]

Mike_76 can you explain what a language has to do with racial intolerance? Are ICAO now guilty of some obscure racial "thingy" because of the requirement to speak a specified language? Why is everyone so obsessed with "race" when in reality it has nothing to do with "race"?

[4PW's]

...I'm getting lost here.

What about taking this up with your employer?

Ask why; surely they'll know the reason.

We can't help.

[#1AHRS]

I have a dugree un Unglish and yet I still have to sit the proficiency test...

[Me Myself]

This is total bollock !!
You may speak whatever language you want ouside the aircraft. Your employer wouldn't last 2 seconds in a court of law.
If the whole world ends up speaking " english only " it is going to become a jolly boring place.

[hunterboy]

My company also states that English is the designated language on board for communication between crew members. ( I believe it is a licencing authority requirement) This even means "chats" between crew members who may both speak a different first language. I should imagine it is more to do with maintaining good CRM among the rest of the crew rather than some crew members talking in a different language that nobody else on the crew can understand. It is a bit like whispering. It can be seen as rude and antisocial, even if it isn't meant to be.

[matt_hooks]

Yes hunterboy, no-one would disagree with it in the cockpit setting, where effective communication is vital, though I guess in an emergency if two Spaniards revert to Spanish (or whatever language you choose) the management wouldn't have much to complain about.

However, in personal conversations that have no safety impact, and are not work related, any attempt to enforce any particular language is on very dodgy ground legally, ethically and morally.

This could well be a case of a manager overstepping the mark somewhat. Maybe he felt that a joke was being made at his expense? It's easy to misread situations such as that. The fact remains that any attempt to discipline someone on those grounds would count as grossly unfair under English law I feel.

There ARE grounds where a certain language to be used can be dictated, but any dyktat cannot apply to personal, private conversations!

[mini]

Official communications in the recognised language is fine.

Imposing English as the "official" language of the organisation, ie to be spoken by all employees while on organisation property...

Sounds like some desk driver who needs to be dislodged tbh.

Talk to his superior... you may find a sympathetic ear. :ok:

Chances are this is not the only mad cap scheme he's come up with...

[stator vane]

soon you must speak english at home to your family as well!!

security reasons--big brother only understands english.

[parabellum]

Sounds as though someone in management has been tasked with raising the level of spoken English throughout the company and has come up with the idea that it should be spoken everywhere when on company time. Probably didn't get his point over very well as a). the memo was in English and b). was not, therefore, properly understood by staff. The Spanish in aviation are not exactly famous for a high level of spoken and comprehended English, are they?;)

As for racism, management wanting to eavesdrop, any possible disciplinary action for not speaking English, breaching of civil rights etc. total tosh I would say, very much in the mind of Mike76, no one else!

[pasoundman]

Mike_76
This is nothing short of racial intolerance

Please explain where you think the issue of RACE comes into it.

[arc-en-ciel]

The last time I heard about someone not beeing permited to speak it's native language, was about the Nazi's requesting so during WW2.
Even in the aeroplane I speak my native language if the person who I am speaking to understands this language better than english. And I am flying for a british airline:ok:

[Flintstone]

The last time I heard about someone not beeing permited to speak it's native language, was about the Nazi's.............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


I should have put money on the Nazis being brought into this. Just can't help themselves some people.



Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[411A]

Rather than see it as a problem, see it as an opportunity for all in the airline to improve their English and perhaps improve their employability.



yep, about sums it up.
Some younger folks (and a few older ones as well) get in a snit when the company 'mandates' a certain standard....however, at my airline English is widely spoken, even amongst the various cabin crew, even though it is not the language of their country.
Why?

These folks seem to strive for a higher standard and have their sights set for bigger/better things.

The company that mandates English is most times doing you a favor.
To think otherwise is...well, I have to say so...backward thinking.

The ones too dumb to realise same need not apply....:rolleyes::eek::yuk:

[radicalrabit]

Have you ever spoken English in a crowded pub in wales and noticed how they all start talking welsh suddenly ?
most jobs in wales insist on being able to speak welsh when you see them advertised..

[White Knight]

An Englishman drinking in a Welsh pub?? You got to be kidding me:}:}

[goeasy]

Well I agree with the policy. Having worked in a multi-national company for many years, I dont see it as against your human rights or anything. I believe this rule is part of your contract of employment, and therefore breaking it, is breaking your contract.

It is also immensely rude, and devisive, to your fellow employees who do not understand your language. Do what you want out of earshot, but show some respect for your colleagues when in there presence, please.

[Manuel de Vol]

Your company's 'requirement' that all its personnel speak English everywhere has nothing to do with 'race' (People of many races speak English as their mother - and often only - tongue.)

IMO, the edict itself isn't worth getting worked up about, either. There are times when - for flight safety or operational efficiency reasons - it might be reasonable to require you to speak English. You may feel that there are times when that would be unreasonable.

Life's short and there are only so many beats in a heart. It's really not worth getting worked up about it. If there's no flight safety or operational reason (and you can prove it in a court of law) that would proscribe you from speaking Catalan on a particular occasion, then go ahead and do so.

Do you really think anybody will do anything about it?

If they fire you, take them to court (In Spain; it's not an EU matter - yet) and you will win.

Aren't you glad they didn't require you to speak Gaelic? ;)

[richatom]

I'm a little surprised to read of airlines forcing English as a cockpit language on aircrew. Presumably the aircrew are given a great deal of training in cockpit English before this requirement is forced upon them?

The ability to use a non-mother tongue second-language in the cockpit in a very high workload situation (eg an emergency) requires a very high degree of fluency and way beyond what is required to make small-talk in the canteen.

[BEagle]

The chances of anyone using Welsh on an airliner flight deck are pretty slim. It is an ancient language and doesn't have any words for anything modern, like 'wheel' or 'fire'......

Listening to 'Jones-the-motor' in Valley village conversing with his staff about the ailments of your car was hilarious - a few Druidic grunts interspersed with English for anything technical. Good chap though - he managed to find me a replacement MG Midget throttle cable at 1700 on a wet Friday evening!

[Donkey497]

Being of a somewhat "twisted" nature, if they are insisting that the only spoken communication is in english, I'd carry a small notebook & pencil in my hip or top pocket & suggest, in english of course, to my colleagues to do the same. It's amazing how quickly a sort of text message-like shorthand develops in any language, and to anyone not involved in it's development, or the conversation, it's almost like a code.

Yes, there are benefits in terms of langauge proficiency etc to constant use, but there are ways to promote this, and it sounds like there's been little or no thought gone into this one. If the mess room's silent for a couple of weeks apart from the scribbling of pencils, they should get the message.

[richatom]

throttle cable is "sbardunau gwifr" in welsh.

sbardunau is derived from the word for spurs.

[Doug the Head]

So which airline is it? EZY? Ryan?

Some things sound familiar... :suspect:

[point8six]

Interestingly enough, there is currently an advert running for Instructors and Pilots for Air France - fluency in French is required.
I think Mike 76's post is a reflection on his airline trying to improve the standard of spoken English - maybe he has misconstrued the 'encouragement' for 'mandatory'?

[Doug the Head]

But does AF also claim to be a pan-European airline with bases throughout Europe?

[Me Myself]

411A

Away from the cockpit a lot of those people aiming at better and grander things ( yuk !!) so just happen to also want to speak their native language. They often speak a better english than the folks around your neck of the wood.
It is just a matter of principle. You MAY speak as many languages there are within the european community.
Any manager who thinks he can dictate what belongs to the most basic of rights should be sent to Mars never to be seen again.
Lord Allmighty !!!!!:mad: This kind of talks scare the living s..t out of me.
Why don't you learn another language ??? It'll broaden your mind and in these times of Alzeimer , it is a proven fact that learning one or more , foreign languages is good for your brain. Ya know things like " new neuronal connections ( no punt intended ) .It also makes you a lot more open to others and changes the perspective you have on the world. You know things like " another point of view " ??? ...........in short, human.
Tempted 411A ?

[Mike_76]

Welcome all your comments,

After reflection, it probably doesnt have anything to do with RACE BUT
it does imfringe on ones personal right to speak what language they want,(when not on the aircraft)

I could start naming the AIRLINE, but hey I will just leave it to yourselves to figure it out.

I would agree, it seems to be a case where a manager has over stepped the mark, either to try and make a name for themselves, or just paranoid of what people are talking about. In order to cure their own self insecurity, a BLANKET BAN on ALL LANGUAGES except for ENGLISH seems to be managers way of fixing the situation, (if a situation exists in the first place)

Yes, taking this to court, the company wouldnt have a leg to stand on

So a word of congratulations to the manager,
you really know the staff that work under you
such a sympathetic ear,
imagine if an employee really did have a personal problem,
how difficult if would be to bring this to the attention of the manager,
especially if the manager thinks the world is out there going to get him

I wonder if this decision is was made at a higher level or not....

[FrequentSLF]

"The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas."

[Me Myself]

Frequent

Thanks so much for this post. I don't remember laughing so much by myself for years !!! What a riot :ok:

I wonder if this decision is was made at a higher level or not....

If that's the airline I am thinking about, I remember reading an article a couple of years back where they were forbidding their employees to charge their mobile phone within the compagny premises beacuse it was costing the compagny too much !!!!
If you're thinking about a fast growing low cost airline that doesn't use orange as a colour......................then yes, it has to come from high up. The bloke is certified fruit cake.

[PA-28-180]

Frequent.....ABZOLUTELY BRILLANT!!!!!
:ok:

[OutOfRunWay]

I would really like to see your employer trying to defend their decision in ANY European country.

"We fired him for speaking Spanish/Swaheli/Latin" is really going to go down well with the Judges.

And adding "Look: it sez in his Contract: got to speak proper English, like wot we does" isn't going to stop the Judges from tearing their heads off.

OORW

[petermcleland]

Frequent...

Your post is a masterpiece and my sides are aching from laughter...Thanks :)

[chrisbl]

Frequent...

Your post is a masterpiece and my sides are aching from laughter...Thanks

And first seen about 20 years ago.

[Me Myself]

I don't really care what is spoken outside as long as everyone within earshot can understand what is being said.



Errrrrrrrrr !! Isn't there a sprinkle of contradiction there ??? You mean you don't care as long it's english don't you ?

Different languages being spoken while there are others in the room that do not understand is the height of rudeness and gives a real sense of insecurity to those who do not know what is being said.


One calls that cutural diversity, a concept some have trouble warming to.
Sense of insecurity ?? .........a good therapist can take care of that in.........roughly 9 sessions covered by NHS if you're refered by your GP.


Frequent

I just read your post once more and I have to stop for now. My belly aches too much.

[Check Airman]

This is nothing short of racial intolerance...

I wasn't aware that the English language was a race.

[SXB]

Contrary to what some have posted there is no legal problem with imposing English, or any other language, as the working language in any private company in any country in the EU.

As Farrel rightly points out, when you are working with a group of internationals the correct language has to be established from the outset, everyone must understand what is being said and I think everybody agrees on the need for a common language policy.

However, banning the use of another language for social chats by the coffee machine or in the company restaurant is asking for trouble, to start with it's poor management to even try and impose such a policy and , secondly, it can be argued that it infringes all sorts of european conventions.

I work in a organisation where our working language is different from our host country. To be honest it's a non-issue, we are many nationalities and most of us are polite enough to speak the common language in social situations but there are always occasions when the French will speak French, the Germans speak German and the Italians Italian.

[juststartin]

I think its about time some people on here dragged themselves out of the dark ages, and realised that people talking a different language from ourselves arnt plotting to blow us up, kill us, or just steal our lunch when we arnt looking, nor are they commenting on our new hairstyle etc etc etc.....

Whilst in any industry, not just aviation, one would expect the language in the workplace to be that of the location, unless otherwise stated, which is fine.

What I am intrigued by however is why is it such a big problem??? Why have we had over 50 posts on this matter when quite frankly.....who cares.

What it boils down to is respect for people whom you work with or work for.

I speak 4 different languages thanks to my job - when I am in Italy talking to an Itallian I will speak Italian out of respect it makes no odds to me and it shouldnt to you either. If that person was Engligh, I would speak English.

Im sure if you address your concerns to your employer you might actually find it was more of a request rather than an order, Rather than voicing your concerns on here where your obviously s**t scared to say who your employers are, and no-one really knows the ins and outs of the request/order etc.

[punkalouver]

With all these regional accents in Britain, I find some very difficult to understand. Perhaps a restriction to the Queen's english or North American English please. Anything else would be....uncivilized.:ok::ok::ok:

[parabellum]

The reason there are over fifty posts on this thread is because someone threw in the 'RACE' word and other derivatives, that automatically will open about twenty boxes of posters who have little other interest!;)

Just take a look at the thread about BA pilots being accused of casual racism.

[Arthur Dent1]

It's brilliant if your flight deck mate can perform PA's in multiple languages, can be bloody useful sorting pax issues out and can add hugely to the operation as a consequence.

If your non-UK mate chats to his/her mates at any time and you don't understand it then so what. We Brits can be so cryptically insulting in our own tongue anyway.

What is relevant and important here is that your colleague who is working for a UK AOC MAINTAINS and COMPLETELY COMPREHENDS to a high standard the English Spoken Language. This is so we can work out what the problem is, generate options and deal with it effectively. SOP 'grunting' is the easy part and a robot can do it.

[Admiral346]

Interesstingly all the ones in favor of the regulation at the threadstarters company happen to be native english speakers. With comments like "take it as an opportunity" a severe breach of your rights get brushed off. This is not racist, it is discriminating.

I can't even begin to imagine if any of the native english speakers were forced by their company to speak only german. Man, this thread would be full of Nazi analogies, accusations of dictatorship and the like. But as it is English that is to be spoken, it feels quite all right to have it forced onto a group of people who have decided to speak spanish on their lunchbreak.

Try putting yourselves into someone elses shoes from time to time, it really widens the horizon...

I swore to myself to never use those stupid smilies, but today I have to put one in:

:ugh:

Nic

[GearDown&Locked]

Professionally I have to communicate in English all the time; Socially the same, either as a necessity or as a matter of politeness towards others.

In both cases the only time I indulge myself in using my native Portuguese is when I curse :E It doesn't sound as bad and others seem to enjoy it ...just like the last time I’ve touched a server rack and got a nice static electrical shock
:mad:

[seekayess]

Skydrol_Leak


Rwanda and listen to Swahili, kinnda weird right?




Yup!! That would be most weird considering Kiswahili does not get spoken very much further afield than the East African nations!!


:}

[SXB]

I can't even begin to imagine if any of the native english speakers were forced by their company to speak only german. Man, this thread would be full of Nazi analogies, accusations of dictatorship and the like. But as it is English that is to be spoken, it feels quite all right to have it forced onto a group of people who have decided to speak spanish on their lunchbreakAdmiral, you may be right. The fact of the matter is native English speakers were born lucky, their mother toungue just happens to be the the language which is often used as a common cummunicator. Hence only a small minority have learned an a additional language

If you want a career on the FD or as a customer facing staff member in the aviation industry then it's made clear from day one that you need a certain level of aptitude in the English language and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Trying to change and impose language policy in coffee machine chats is clearly poor management and a perfect example of how to rile and alienate your workforce. I'm not sure where the airline/airport industry find a lot of their managers, especially middle level, but it's clear they aren't hanging around the gates at Harvard and Oxford looking for recruits....

[Wingswinger]

I'm not sure where the airline/airport industry find a lot of their managers, especially middle level, but it's clear they aren't hanging around the gates at Harvard and Oxford looking for recruits....

That's got to be the understatement of the year. It's been nearly 20 years since I came into commercial aviation from the military, thinking I would make my way into management myself. Being an ex-officer, it seemed to me to be the obvious way to go. I was soon enlightened. Whilst there are some sharp cookies around in aviation/airline management, a depressing number I have come across would not even make competent NCOs so lacking are they in any concept of real leadership and in any ability rapidly to analyse a problem and find a solution. And don't get me started on the way they mangle the English language. :*

[parabellum]

Sadly there is a great myth in commercial aviation that trainers will make good managers, forgone conclusion.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Managers need to be professionally trained as such. Trainers are one level of authority above a line captain and that one level does not constitute or substitute for proper management training. I can count on the fingers of one hand the trainers I know who have gone into management and succeeded, most others were on a personal advancement exercise or ego trip.

There is no alternative to professional management training and successful management requires inbred aptitude just as much as flying does. Simply being an ex commissioned officer doesn't even start to cover it.

[farmer jo]

Okay Mike76 We have worked out your Ailrine !! Its got to be AIR FRANCE

It was obvious the French would eventualy realise English was the way to go !!:ok::ok:

[chuks]

English is my mother tongue, which was a big help when I went into aviation. I only noticed the disadvantages to being mono-lingual once I started working outside the U.S.A.

To fly GA aircraft in Germany I had to learn some basic aviation German and pass a language test. This was the first time that very basic point that English is not, in fact, always and everywhere the official language of aviation was brought home to me. Well, yes, there had been the odd occasion when a trip to Gabon, say, saw most of the traffic speaking French but I took that for an aberration.

If you want to fly at an airstrip in Germany AND use the radio for getting advisories and giving position reports then you shall need a specific radio licence that states you can speak German. (You get into a situation where the others aren't allowed to speak English, having German-only licences, while you aren't allowed to speak German, even assuming that you are capable of that, if you lack a licence for that.)

Now I am working in North Africa, where the two main languages are Arabic and French, with French sharing about 50% of the radio traffic with English at a rough estimate.

For your own sake you had better know the French for the basic clearances so that you have good SA. To get fuel you shall need very basic French to give the quantity required unless you want to be reduced to writing little notes on scraps of paper, when you may look like an ignoramus, or else get the other crew member to do this for you.

Most of my colleagues have English as their second or third language. Socialising is done mostly in French and Arabic with English in third place closely followed by German. You wouldn't get very far here by putting in some sort of "English only" rule anywhere but in the cockpit, and even there English is restricted in its use if both crewmembers share another common language. I think this is just common sense, really.

Such a heavy-handed approach as ordering people to only use English just because they are working in aviation would be totally unacceptable, I think. It would be interesting to see someone try to do that of course. "Cultural imperialism" might be the first bit of English learned aside from the usual stuff such as "Say again?"

Having the courtesy to learn some basic phrases in the local language can pay big dividends in having a good working relationship plus helping to make friends if you have any interest in that. (411A, you can just look away now!)

[GlueBall]

And if you insist in speaking Spanish, then you will be paid in Pesos! :{

[Say Again, Over!]

Chuks,

Beautiful post.

It seems that mono-lingual english speakers on this board figure that proper communication in all aspects of life can only be achieved in english.

Sometimes, YOU have to go the extra mile. I congratulate you on learning a bunch of languages (some of them harder than others) to stay ahead of miscommunication, instead of expecting everybody else to talk like you.

I would love to see the reactions of those people if one of theirs was reporting from Italy that their employer were forbidding them from speaking english with a countryman.... oh the nerve!! ;)

Felix

[Taildragger67]

Mike,

Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights (http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/englishAnglais.pdf) gives the right to freedom of expression and this is the most-used starting point when arguing for the right to use a certain language; should you/your union bring an action, it would most likely be under this head.

However it has not been fully tested by the European Court of Human Rights so it's still a grey area.

Article 10 does allow some derogation from the freedom:
The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety... - hence an employer such as an airline may be within their rights to stipulate a certain language on those grounds. CRM has been mentioned previously and if you have multi-national crew, it may be that the airline considers it best if they are used to dealing with each other in one language as a matter of course.

Likewise, they may actually be operating under a view of non-discrimination. That is, if you have multi-national crew and some start speaking to each other in a language which effectively excludes others, then that could be discriminatory (:ugh:). Hence they have to be seen to be doing something to control that. Whilst you're on a trip, you're on duty, even at the pub, so they get to say what goes. Proof of that can be seen in two simple examples: 1. if you fell over and broke your arm at the pub whilst on a slip, you could claim on the company's insurance; 2. if someone behaved inappropriately towards a female F/A, the company could go after the culprit. Hence whilst on a trip, you're on duty, even when you're not at the wheel.

Now you claim that your employers are making this rule so that they get to hear everything that is going on. But if you work for a Spanish (or any non-UK) airline, then how will it help them if everything is in English? Surely they would be better to stipulate everything outside actual operational conversation (eg. with ATC or checklists), be in Spanish?

Moreover, if you're complaining about them wanting to hear your conversations off the aircraft but whilst still on duty, then you are saying that they have ears EVERYWHERE - in which case I suggest you need to be careful of who you're talking to, irrespective of the language used.

I would say that this sort of stuff is gold to any 'popular' newspapers... I wonder what management would say if they found out that it was going to hit the press.

This article (http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issues/v10n1/higgins101.html) may be of interest.

[SXB]

Taildragger

Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights (http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/englishAnglais.pdf) gives the right to freedom of expression and this is the most-used starting point when arguing for the right to use a certain language; should you/your union bring an action, it would most likely be under this headThe European Convention on Human Rights isn't really relevant in this case. The conventions written at the Council of Europe are a set of legal obligations which member governments agree to adhere to, most of these obligations are enshrined in law in each member country. Ultimately, a case can go all the way here to Strasbourg (in fact we have 80,000 of them waiting to be heard) but it's important to understand that only a member government can be prosecuted in the European Court of Human Rights, it is not a place where an individual can attempt to prosecute a private corporation.

With regard to freedom of expression the point of the convention is more to do with your ability to say what you think without being harrassed by a government instrument, like the police for example. It has very little to do with language, there are various other conventions which cover protection of language though none of them cover what a private corporation may or may not impose on its workforce, that's an entirely different legal playing field.

[Taildragger67]

SXB,

Agreed, the ECHR is a public law instrument (indeed the UK Human Rights Act can only be used as a cause of action against public bodies) but it imparts rights, which are enforceable against anyone seekingto infringe them. That is, a right to privacy of correspondence must be observed by both government (can't open my mail) and, say, an employer (can't open mail addressed to me without a legal, justifiable reason - which may include 'business purposes').

So my point is that right to expression - which in the first paragraph of Art.10 carries no qualification, unlike para.2 - is a general right.

Whether the right to freedom of expression extends to freedom to always use a language one chooses (rather than the content of what one says) has not, I think, been tested.

[chicocelta]

ok... so for all you pro-english speakers out there :
hola mike76, como va la cosa? te enteraste que el madrid gano la liga?
so... one of two things will have happened to you
1. you either switched off completely, because you don't understand, and won't read the rest of this post, or...
2. you are suddenly offended because i'm speaking to a countryman in our language, about something nothing to do with safety, aviation, or our work environment, (for the record, i don't know mike76 at all) but because you've heard/read some familiar words (e.g. madrid) have come over all suspicious about what we might be saying...
respect for my colleagues is one thing, and i will avoid speaking spanish german or italian if everyone INVOLVED in the conversation didn't speak it, but if in a public area, in a conversation intended for only spanish speakers, and again, not related to work, i will speak whatever language i damn well please!!! or am i not allowed to use sign language or esperanto now??? bureaucratic busybodies.... :mad::ugh:

[captplaystation]

I believe the person who tried to impose this rule is no longer in his previous position of authority, although regretably for those who have to share the crew room / cockpit with him , neither is he in the Caribean as planned. . . . shame that.
If I had found myself in receipt of his "advice" I would have spoken French to whoever was around, whether they understood or not, even if English ( or at least my dialect of it) is my mother tongue.
I suggest you use the time spent in his presence to insult him among yourselves in a language he doesn't understand, it can be most rewarding.