Oldest Continuous Airline?

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Right-o, it's about to become topical. Be watching the TV from today.

What do PPruners consider to be the oldest continuously operating airline in the world?! I won't lead with what I think is the answer....

[redsnail]

Oldest continuing airline that still uses it's original name is KLM but the contention is that now Air France owns them so that might knock them out.

That leaves (for me) Qantas.

Happy to be proved wrong.

[tail wheel]

1919 KLM and Avianca (Although KLM is now Air France-KLM)
1921 Qantas

Chalk's Airways are often credited as the world's oldest, however their early operations may have been charter. An interesting connection with Australia, at one stage Chalks operated the ex Ansett Sandringhams (or was it Sunderlands?) between Florida and the Bahamas.

I'm old enough to remember the Ansett Flying Boats at Rose Bay! :{ :{

Tail Wheel

[aussie027]

Tailwheel is absolutely correct-
1919 KLM and Avianca (Although KLM is now Air France-KLM)
1921 Qantas
are the worlds oldest airlines that are still the original companies (and names):ok:
A very long and proud heritage for all 3 companies thru all the turbulent times of the 20th and early 21st century.:ok:

[Capt Wally]

...................................A very long and proud heritage for all 3 companies thru all the turbulent times of the 20th and early 21st century.:ok:

The above statement now no longer applies in todays climate to one of the above, I wonder which one?:bored:



CW

[tail wheel]

My error. It appears Chalk's no longer operate - on September 30, 2007 the United States Department of Transportation revoked the license for the airline.

Wally, I suspect any resemblance between today's "heritage" air carriers and what they were even twenty years ago, is purely coincidental!

[Barkly1992]

Tail Wheel - me too (re Rose Bay) - wish they were still operating!!! :ok:

[Ron & Edna Johns]

My understanding of the Air France - KLM thing is that "Air France - KLM" is a holding company, based in France, and comprises of two separate subsidiary airlines: Air France and KLM, each currently operating independently. That may, however, change sometime this year by the "absorption" of KLM within the bigger company. But as of right now, KLM still exists, I would have thought?

Also, my understanding of KLM is that whilst it stopped flying in Europe during WWII, it continued flying in Asia. Is that correct - can the aviation history experts comment? In other words, has KLM maintained some form of "continuous" operation?

As I said, topical, given what is coming out of Coward St as of today!

And I haven't even considered Avianca yet....

[tail wheel]

Indonesian based KNILM was the Asian subsidiary of KLM and I doubt that airline operated continuously during the war.

When Japan occupied Indonesia what remained of KNILM's fleet of DC3s and DC5s were ferried to Australia, sequested by the Australian Government and given Commonwealth registrations ("VH-CX_").

Interestingly for some unknown reason, all the KNILM Douglas aircraft had right hand rear doors (as distinct from the normal DC3 left hand rear doors.) To my knowledge, the only remaining examples are DC3 VH-CXD ex PH-ALT, PK-ALT, located at Bamaga; and possibly VH-ANR ex VH-CXL/CXE, at Caloundra and PK-AFV ex PH-ALP at Broome.

Sadly, no DC5s remain in the world.

Another error by me .... the ex Ansett flying boats went to Antilles Air Boats, not Chalks. :ouch:

Where is Fris B Fairing when we need him? :}

[Heavy Cargo]

If Qantas is the oldest airline it shows with the oldest ( worst ) service and oldest Hostitutes ?:cool:

[roamingwolf]

and oldest Hostitutes ?
heavy cargo
get another knock back huh:{

[Animalclub]

I saw a flying boat in Ansett's livery in the Southampton (UK) Aviation Museum... and an ex Ansett Captain who flew it does volunteer work there showing people around it. After Ansett this particular ship went to a Caribean airline owned by film star Maureen O'Hara. A seat was built in the cockpit especially for Maureen... the guy I was with embarrassed me by immediately sniffing the seat!!! Can't help some guys!

[aussie027]

Capt Wally,
I stand corrected:E

[Fris B. Fairing]

Where is Fris B Fairing when we need him?

Thanks Tail Wheel. It's nice to feel wanted. There's no "possibly" about VH-ANR. She is indeed the former PH-ALW/PK-ALW. She was built for KLM in 1937 with a right hand door. Several US operators also went with this option. When ANA acquired the aeroplane post-war they moved the door to the LHS for fleet commonality. ANR celebrated her 70th birthday last year and she continues to be the jewel in the crown of the Qld Air Museum collection at Caloundra. Her full history can be found

here (http://www.adastron.com/dc-3/vh-anr.htm)

Regards

[Brian Abraham]

Caribean airline owned by film star Maureen O'Hara
Don't know the financial arrangements, but the driving force behind Antilles Air Boats was Brigadier General Charles F. Blair, Jr, to whom Maureen was married.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/cfblair.htm

[neville_nobody]

Qantas would be the oldest. Chalk did not operate continuously over their whole life. I think they stopped operations during WW2 and KLM is not really a separate entity any more.

[tail wheel]

Fris

Is there any reason for the right hand door option on the Dutch DC3s and all the DC5?

[Animalclub]

Tail Wheel
I recall from my days of handling the DC3s of the Dutch airline De Kruindof (sp) at Lae (they had a fortnightly service from Hollandia) the rear doors were in the usual place. I believe they were all cargo convertable so had two doors on the lhs.

[Taildragger67]

All this talk about KLM not counting because it's now part of AF-KLM, is bollox.

The corporate entity still exists, only its ownership has changed - no different from when QF's ownsreship changed from private hands to government and back again. KLM is still a company with its own legal 'seat' in Holland. The blue-top aircraft still fly with cloggies at the wheel and 6' blonde bikky chuckers.

That may change, but KL still exists in its own right as at today (as a subsidiary company of Air France KLM).

[John Hill]

I would have to say the Mount Cook Airlines would have to figure in some category. Formerly Mount Cook and Southern Lakes Tourist Company they began taking passengers to the Mt Cook Hermitage in a DH4 (IIRC) right early on in the piece.

[bushy]

Yes, but you never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Tail Wheel

I believe that the right hand door was chosen to simplify terminal parking arrangements. Earlier aircraft in the KLM fleet must have had RHDs. American Airlines also specified the RHD on the DC-3 for similar reasons.

Rgds

[Brian Abraham]

Cyrus Rowlett Smith, (C.R.) President of American Airlines (American Airlines were responsible for the genesis and design of the DC-3) came up with an innovation for passenger comfort. He insisted on a right side door to the airplane. There were two reasons for this. It would standardize American's operations where they had ramp facilities to accommodate their right side door Ford Tri-Motors, but more importantly, Smith's philosophy behind the right side door was that pilots started the left engine first preparatory to departure. Boarding passengers would not be buffeted by the prop wash as they boarded the aircraft if the left engine were running. In the past, most airlines had ramp facilities to accommodate left-sided door airplanes.
From http://www.dc3history.org/aa_master.htm
It would seem the other airlines won out in the end with the left hand door.
DC-5 had the door on the left, unless these guys took along can openers.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/5.jpg