BA hero wants to quit

[BAMANAGER]

The Cpt John Coward who sucessfully landed the stricken 777 on the 17th of January 2008 has hit the front page of the todays Sunday Mirror (27th April)John has stated he's had his pay cut and wants to leave.Two pilots in two days on the front pages of different nationals, something is seriously wrong.

[M.Mouse]

He is not a captain.

He has not had 'his pay cut'.

You are with out doubt one of that unpleasant breed of BA employee who takes every opportunity to denigrate our already badly damaged reputation.

[BAMANAGER]

Mr Mouse, what is left of BA's reputation is being rapidly destroyed all on it's own. I am merely commenting that pilots at BA are so unsupported in their workplace that they feel they must speak out in public. THat takes courage and should be commended.

[Hand Solo]

Making up fanciful claims of a culture of racism in order to promote yourself at the expense of your colleagues doesn't take courage. Just cynicism.

[Mister Geezer]

has hit the front page of the todays Sunday Mirror

Always been a credible source of news and current affairs... :}

[BAMANAGER]

Oh the BA PR department are up late this saturday evening. It's amazing how you can be out on the town, and still work via your PDA. I don't know about the SUnday Mirror being highly regarded but I do think the Independent has a very affluent, professional and respected base of readers. The shock for BA is that 2 nationals on two days running have had pilots speaking out.

[newjourno]

The picture on the front page of the Sunday Mirror seems to show Captain Peter Burkill. I may be mistaken.

[BAMANAGER]

Journo, well spotted indeed I stand corrected, Peter Burkhill Cpt speaks out. Hey you never know, SFO John Coward might be tomorrow. This must be the biggest PR disaster ever, BA can't even keep the man they paraded to the worlds media on side. They must of seriously pissed him off, but then he might of felt more confidence knowing that his colleague Doug Maughan had already done so. Interesting pattern developing here, both of them being 777 captains........ Conspirators out there, theories please...

[Glamgirl]

Anyone got a link to the story please? I can't find the article (yes, blond, female and tired...)

[newjourno]

BA Manager, we don't know whether he's "spoken out" so far, based on the limited information available ATOW. All I've seen is the Mirror's front page picture and headline; I don't know the paper's full story or source, and can't begin to make any judgements on its credibility. Perhaps we should wait for a little more information before rushing to judge?

Now there's a rare thing for a journalist to say......

[parabellum]

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/ - but nothing at all about any BA crew that I can find. BAMANAGER hallucinating again?:confused:

[A T Lascart]

If it's in a Sunday red top it must be true, could be underlying currents? was the T7 incident pilot in command error? is he wanting a pay off for his story?

There are so many areas of the media trying to bring scorn and ridicule on BA, we are great in knocking ourselves. BA is one of the top airlines of the world always has been and will be even when all the LCC's go belly up.

I don't work for BA but would not chosse any other airline for a scheduled trip, there are not many airlines in the world who have the number of staff with over 20 years of service as BA........so they cannot be that bad!

[BAladdy]

The question is BA manager for someone who bad mouths the company so much and doesn't even know John Coward is not a captain. I have one question what exactly do you do in the BA?? or are u wannabe or a one of those paper filers they let go??.

Seriously If you are still working in BA with such a negative attitude maybe you should find employment with another company.

If it is true he has been suspended maybe the AIB have found out something or maybe he thinks he deserves a pay rise and the best way of going about it is to go to the papers!!!. Some sad individuals do!!!. After all yes what happend was a miracle and amazing but thats what he is trained and payed to do.

Also the remainder of pilots are getting vocal because the court case result will be due soon. They want as much publicity behind them as possible so that they will have the public support when they strike. Anyone can see that!!!

I know personally or have flown recently with 8 of the cabin crew from BA038 and they have said they where and still still are supported back to work with the company one of the crew has decided to leave. Since the flight crew are more highly thought of I doubt they haven't been offered the same amount of support

[Hand Solo]

What a load of sh1t. Grounded? He's been flying again for months and has a full roster next month? Pay cut? Nothing of the sort. Apart from the ridiculous claims that his pay has halved (it hasn't and there is no mechanism to do that), he appears to be upset that he isn't getting flying allowances. Errr hello? Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. Looks like financially he has been handled in exactly the same way as every other BA pilot. Or perhaps the Mirror believes that Peter should be made an exception and remunerated differently to any other BA pilot.

[Flap 5]

It's in the Sunday Mirror because they have been slighted by this. They built him up as a hero to sell newspapers and now it transpires he was not quite as much of a hero.

None of us can judge whether he 'froze' or not but generally in an emergency situation it is better for the F/O to fly the aircraft so the Captain can manage the emergency. That appears to be what happened. Of course the newspapers will all think that the Captain should be flying the aircraft but most reporters haven't got a clue about operating an airliner.

There is a point about why he hadn't descended to a lower level earlier in the flight when it was so cold but situations are rarely simple when things go wrong and that has been thrashed out already with many showing that the fuel temperature never readuced to a point where they had to descend. But then there is only one fuel temperature measurement location, etc. etc. ...

[beerdrinker]

I,too, am intrigued about BAMANAGER. Are you a BA Manager? Are you a BA Pilot? Are you a BA Office worker? Are you BA airport ground staff? Are you BA Cabin Crew. In fact do you work for BA at all?

If you want to protect your anonymity there is no need to be too specific but I am sure there are a lot of Ppruners who would love to know your provenance.

Beerdrinker
Retired BA pilot

[Me Myself]

You can't help having the occasional twit putting his 2 pence in during a in house training course after a crash like this. As hurtfull as it may be ( and it must be ) , it's unavoidable. Nothing different happens on Prune I have to say.
.
I'm not sure I'd like to have my face and life spread on Sunday newspapers and I can't imagine EK and Branson being too moved by an application of that kind, specially one that attracts so much media attention.
Difficult to imagine Cpt Burkill would do something that stupid. But then again, maybe he did ?
The sooner the final report comes out, the better it will be for everyone, Ppruners included.

BA guys, tell me; the way I understand it is, : He'd like to be on full pay while on stress leave ??? Is this it ?? Isn't there some kind of salary top up system provided by your loss of licence insurance when temporarely grounded ??

[d71146]

This is at the moment making the headlines on Sky News.
The article is described in depth at The Sunday Mirror Online.
Is this the same newspaper that was ferreting around after the crash of BA 038 digging up photos etc of the chap at a party a few years previous ?
As a previous poster has said even if just a little part of it is correct its a major slip up again from this airline.
As I posted just after the accident I always thought it was bad PR to parade the crew for the media because this sort of thing could come back and bite the airline on the bum even though the whole crew did an excellent job no doubt about that.

[sarah737]

Hero???
They didn't do anything wrong and I would certainly not do better, but leaving the autopilot in untill the plane stalls is not really heroic. Everybody can do that, they were just lucky to survive.
For once a journo who likes pilots!

[M.Mouse]

A grounded pilot will be on basic pay. The proportion of variable pay, only earned when flying, as a percentage of overall pay is nowhere near the ridiculous figures in the Sunday Mirror.

More generally BA are very clear about employees and the press. The information about Captain Burkill is coming from somebody close to him. That does nothing for his case whatsoever.

[beamer]

Always dangerous treating anyone as a hero until the full facts are known, not just in aviation but in life generally !

[obie2]

So, has he been flying for "months", as Solo has stated, or not? :sad:

[London legend]

The article claims he's flown once since the incident. Why he's off work now isn't made clear - the article gives two possible contradictory reasons - stress related sick leave, and BA "not letting him fly until the investigation is completed". Can anyone throw any light on this?

[captjns]

"Can anyone throw any light on this?"

Yeah… the pilot himself. However, I would believe that on the advice of his counsel, and pending the outcome of the investigation, he is keeping a low profile.

[obie2]

So the post by Hand Solo on the previous page is incorrect!...is that so?

What say you Hand? :ok:

[barry lloyd]

Whoever BAMANAGER is, he/she is not a journo in disguise, for whatever you may say about them, they wouldn't write such poor English. With these qualifications, I trust he/she is not a BAMANAGER!

might of felt They must of :confused:

[Sallyann1234]

BAmanager used to post as BAengineering until he/she/it was banned. Also as a journo under another ID.

[Joetom]

The final AAIB report will be a long long way off.

May be the PR team should come back from holiday and get a little press release/AAIB update ready with some of the facts, they could put it out during the long hall flight switch to T5 and/or during the show in the summer.

I would hope the facts will include at least the following 3 item.

1. Fuel temp info.
2. Cross feed valves info.
3. Flaps info.

If the PR team get it right, it will work out ok for everybody.

We all need to remember the happy outcome of the 038.

If all the lessons are learned and acted upon, the poor old 038 will save lives in future.

My hat remains off to all the crew and passengers that day.

[Faire d'income]

Question:

If a pilot was grounded on medical grounds due to a major incident at work then would the company involved be liable for any loss of earnings, i.e. all normal earnings not merely basic pay?

(For example if a guys who loads catering does his back in doing his job while he is on sick leave he will receive full pay. However if he breaks a leg on his own time he would receive sick pay.)

[mr Q]

".....He's been flying again for months and has a full roster next month? "

"....he appears to be upset that he isn't getting flying allowances. Errr hello? Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. ....."
Cannot have it both ways !

[yamaha]

There is a bigger issue behind all this and should those employed by BA just remove those rose tinted spectacles for just a few minutes things would look very different.

I am not out to knock BA just out to place some real home truths into the discussion.

BA has had a serious culture issue for some time. They have unfortunately lost their way a bit in the 21st century and are moving from being a really top employer to something more akin to that expected at that Irish outfit.

It isn't just flight crews or cabin crews that are affected, it is the whole company, from top to bottom. More is slowly moving to less, safety is slowly moving towards unsafe, caring is moving to uncaring. BA alludes exclusively now to profit and nothing else matters.

The results are for all to see, if you would just look.

It is a real shame and I gain no pleasure from approaching this subject. It is however fact.

[Me Myself]

Why would you get flying allowances and if you are not flying? Nobody else does. ....."


..........hence my question above about any top up salary coming fom your personal insurance.
That's what happens in France. Up to you to choose when it kicks in, immediatly, 15 days, 30 days ..........etc after the accident happened. Your personal choice of course since it has consequences on your premiums.

To those who think Mr Coward could / should have done better :
Do be reasonable please !!! At 700 ft, I challenge anyone who thinks he could have done better !! As for me, well, I would have taken over the controls ( total gut reaction ) and most probably disconnected the A/P ( gut reaction again ) after that ?? Your guess is as good as mine.
You may say what you want, but we are not trained / prepared for these kind of things. One hopes we would be " creative " when push comes to shove and I think they were.
All the best to mr Burkhill, I'm not sure he chose the best of paths...................if he ever had a choice that is. Doesn't look that way.

[Kurtz]

It doesn't do to speculate, so I won't, however I do support sarah 737 when she said:
leaving the autopilot in untill the plane stalls is not really heroic. Everybody can do that, they were just lucky to survive.

Let's face it, NITS / DODAR etc etc is good stuff when time/fuel permit. If you need to act then you need to act. We'll have to wait till we see the report, but as beamer said:
it's dangerous treating anyone as a hero until the full facts are known, not just in aviation but in life generally !

In this case, thank goodness, (whatever the result) that Mr Boeing builds such good aeroplanes and installs such good autopilots and robust shock absorbing undercarriages!!!
Personally, I can't imagine a worse time for something to happen than at the end of a LH sector, ...... BUT.....I am in absolutely no doubt that had I been the Captain, right or wrong, I would have taken control on the grounds that I was going to be responsible anyway, and that it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.

I note our colleague Hand Solo has once again had to retire wrong, he'll doubtless return with an abstruse explanation for his contradictory and illogical comments - at least he's consistent!

I'm sure that if the paper has it wrong, then BACC acting on behalf of one of the sisterhood will stump up the loot to sue the Mirror. Maybe BA will threaten strike action?? These situations should not be rushed, there may be a case for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder litigation for flight crew as well as - or instead of - the pax.Will we see more photos of chocolate covered pilots?

In the meantime, it continues to amuse to watch the self inflicted wounds that the Nation's Laughing Stock continues to inflict upon itself - you really couldn't make this stuff up (maybe the Captain in question is also planning a political career - who knows these days)! More and more BA resembles the BL of the seventies - we all know where that went!

If we were REALLY lucky, maybe Solo will see the merits of a public career - there's always the Monster Raving Loony Party!

[Shaka Zulu]

Kurtz would you please take your words back about low time second officers in the context of this topic.

1st of all, BA do not employ second officers.

2nd of all, SFO John Coward (senior first officer as you well know) is close to a command on the Boeing 777 by way of his seniority within BA and could have had his command on a shorthaul aircraft ages ago.

3rdly speculating about who should be in control of an aircraft that close to the ground and it's relative merits of taking over are just stupid.
If you know anything about CRM then a risk assessment done behind your computer is not exactly the same thing as what happened on the day.

So you do nicely speculate away whilst knowing none of the facts, it makes you look like the fool you are.

Why stop and snipe on every single street corner, does it give you pleasure?

[Flap 5]

Kurtz,

As stated in my previous post the Captain does not take control in such an emergency. If you were do so you would be wrong. :=

The SFO is often a better handling pilot than the Captain as that is all he does. The Captain has to have overall responsibility for the aircraft and it would be his job to manage the emergency. You don't do that by taking control with the resultant tunnel vision you would have of the situation.

Look at the BMI accident at Kegworth where the Captain had control and disconnected the autpilot. He lost the ability to manage the emergency properly. It's a standard example at all CRM courses.

[Mike Mercury]

The point seems to be that it's BA making itself look like a fool!

What next - it's immensely funny to watch! It's also difficult to follow - T5 (I'm with BEagle and the quote from Michael Winner!), then we have chocolate PTSD heros attacking their employer for cutting their bonuses when they are grounded/flying/bit-of-both, we have other pilots alleging institutional racism whilst standing for election as Labour MPs - I mean really.....
We have Hand Solo contradicting himself (OK, nowt new there);:oh: it gives a whole new meaning to checking PPrune, will BA shoot itself in the foot, the @rse, the brains - (oops, repetition) - please DO keep it up, it's better than watching "The Apprentice".:sad:

[Kurtz]

it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.

I stand by that.

My whole point was that it's not possible to make an ongoing risk assessment so close to the ground. The CRM implications are well described, inasmuch that the FO handles while the Captain manages. Remind me how much management is possible at that altitude - they seem to have managed their way into keeping the A/P engaged, and changing the flap setting. Can't wait to see the risk assessment done regarding the flap/speed correlation, the diagnosis and option discussion etc etc. Point of fact is that leaving the A/P in may well have been the best option, however at that juncture I would have opted for personal intervention rather than the status quo - you'll note please I did not suggest anyone 'froze'!!!
To compare Kegworth is to compare apples and bananas. A more relevant comparison would be the HS748 who rejected well past V1. Had he followed conventional thinking all on board would have died. I suggest that we wait for the CVR, I suggest we wait for AAIB final report. In the meantime, as I'm sure we are all aware, there is a huge body of opinion and intensive discussion on flight decks around the world regarding this incident - clearly, everyone does not think that from what we know thus far, this incident was necessarily optimally handled - any more than various other contemporary BA problems.

[Kurtz]

Yep, and I had a BA critical post deleted as well. It seems that BACC have taken over moderation of this forum. I suppose that means we'll all lose our baggage next?

Bit rich coming from a multiple-identity single-issue attention-whore. Banned, Sine Die, and don't come back.

[Me Myself]

wild guess..........because it sounded pretty insulting to the crew and pictured them as powerless morons. I've seen much worse abuse and inuendos on this site that didn't get deleted though. . Unless you have a death wish I would leave it at that. This topic seems pretty emotionally charged, even in the land of tight upper lip.

[Shaka Zulu]

Kurtz that was not the part that I wanted you to take back. You were talking about taking control of a low hours second officer. Evidently not the case here. So I either suggest you modify your postings and make them relevant.

So you contradict yourself neatly. The FO handles, the Captain Manages.
He saw fit to let the FO do the flying as per SOPs and evidently managed the situation by selecting F20 instead of F25, clearly thinking outside the box. Would he have done the same if he'd taken control of the aircraft?
I don't want to start a guessing game.

But your part of taking control over an aircraft from a low houred second officer has NO bearing on this at all, so thats what I want you to take back since it's not relevant here!

[Shaka Zulu]

Oh dear, you people can't read, can you?

His earlier post says this:

Personally, I can't imagine a worse time for something to happen than at the end of a LH sector, ...... BUT.....I am in absolutely no doubt that had I been the Captain, right or wrong, I would have taken control on the grounds that I was going to be responsible anyway, and that it's probable I'd make a better fist of things than a low time Second Officer - and that's not to denigrate the S/O.


His wording is wrong and is not applicable to the BA incident. How clear can I be?

[Basil]

rubik101,
I think you will find that from the moment that the engines failed to respond to their inputs, they were pretty much passengers along with everyone else.

Please tell me you are not a pilot.

I'd guess BAmanager is a troll.

[beamer]

Why is it that BA, who used to term itself 'the world's favourite airline', apparently determined to make itself look bloody stupid on such a regular basis ? I, for one, used to enjoy flying with BA both long and shorthaul as it appeared to be a thoroughly professional airline that looked after its most precious asset namely its customers in a degree of style.

After various re-branding exercises which did not work and the use of franchise operations hiving out routes to low-cost operators we now have the debacle of T5, reports of racist flightdeck crews, front line headlines in the Sunday Mirror about hero pilots. Is it not time that someone within British Airways took a grip ?

[Shaka Zulu]

Thanks for the wind up...

[Joetom]

Reading between the lines of the AAIB and the internet comments on this case.

Leaving the FO as the PIC and reducing the HLDs may prove to be the best decisions made that day.

Have the PR team come back from holiday yet ?

[Flintstone]

Leaving the FO as the PIC......


*pedant hat on*

The FO never was PIC. Perhaps you mean PH/PF?

[Mike Mercury]

Perhaps in a situation like that, defining the handling non-landing flying pilot monitoring in command tends to confuse the issue.:bored:

Anyone got any chocolate?:oh:

[overstress]

I suggest that we wait for the CVR, I suggest we wait for AAIB final report.

Then, Kurtz, please do exactly that and this forum will be a better place again.

[rubik101]

Kurtz and Basil refer to my second post on the subject, both of which have been deleted by the Mods, just in case you were wondering what they were referring to.
I wish the Mods would write and explain to me just what they found so disagreeable.
Criticism is obviously out of order here now.
Time to fight back, or leave this sham of a forum.

[Flintstone]

Well rubik if my memory serves me correctly at least one of your deleted posts was insulting toward the 777 crew so perhaps that's why it was deleted.

Fight back at the mods? How would you do that exactly?

Leave? That'd be easier. On all of us. Be a good fellow and take BAMANAGER, Tondem Rator and their many but obvious other personae with you please.

[exeng]

Apologies for the thread creep (although I'm not the first)

Firstly I would like to say well done to both the Captain and F/O on that flight, fantastic stuff.

Back to the thread creep - it does seem as if the worlds favorite isn't anymore.

Seems to me that BA had all the slots and a very professional operation, and now it just seems to have - well slots I suppose.

The staff generally seem to do their best under quite difficult circumstances, but the Management seem to be pursueing an entirely different agenda than that of efficient airline operations.

The media are carrying a great deal of negative stuff on BA for obvious reasons. If the Management don't get a grip that share price is going to fall even lower.

Best of luck to all the staff.


Kind Regards
Exeng

[fade to grey]

Flap5 :I'm afraid my natural reaction as captain WOULD be to take control, based on the fact that we are crash landing and my signature is in the tech log.
Your assertion that the FO is normally a better handling pilot is a wild generalisation - we do the same OPCs/LPCs !

I don't fear mechanical failure on the plane, what i fear is all the :mad: spotters on here slagging me off for the next three months......

[FlyingTom]

By definition whatever Capt Burkill, SFO Coward and the heavy did was correct as no one died on an a/c that tried to kill them. The criticisms are about finer points, which are several magnitudes of reality removed from the great job that was done.

I really wish Capt Burkill the best, it isn't hard to see how re-living the events in his mind every waking day can cause a lot of stress. He is a hero because he walked away from his striken a/c after all his crew and passengers were accounted for, alive, thanks to his decisions.

Not many airlines fly the BA monitored approach method. But to clarify once control is handed over it would be unlikely to improve things if the Capt took control back. SFO Coward is as capable at crash landing as Capt Burkill.

[obie2]

Oh Dear!...you lot really do need to read your SOPs!! :=...

and use a little bit of common sense!

[Krakatoa]

Another example of the captain must take over control at the wrong time was the " hole in one" at the Bangkok golf course by QF1

[pilotbear]

Why is BA being run down? well lets just see who benefits when WW leaves for the competition.......:E

[lomapaseo]

Flap5 :I'm afraid my natural reaction as captain WOULD be to take control, based on the fact that we are crash landing and my signature is in the tech log.
Your assertion that the FO is normally a better handling pilot is a wild generalisation - we do the same OPCs/LPCs !


I doubt that is a natural reaction, more like a political reaction made over time.

A natural reaction would be skill and knowlege based taking into account only present tense events with little thought to the future beyond minutes away.

[Shaka Zulu]

You guys make me laugh, a natural reaction would be to take control just because my signature is in the tech log??
I doubt that would be in my mind 35seconds from impact.

No rights or wrongs I think. Just the thought police saying this is how it should be done need to think twice before posting.

If it's true that Capt. Burkill selected a lesser flap setting and therefore cleared the fence and the road then in my opinion he's done the right thing to let the SFO get on with it and think of things to improve the outcome of an unbelievable accident.

Let's wait for the AAIB report.

[LTNman]

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-270408a.htm

The BA pilot at the controls in the Heathrow Airport crash landing is planning to quit the airline in disgust at the way bosses have treated him, the Mirror reports. Captain Peter Burkill, 43, says he is a ‘broken man’ and feels betrayed after being effectively grounded and having his pay docked. He also says he has been refused the support he needs to start flying again, and that BA have not done enough to halt rumours that he ‘froze’ when co-pilot John Coward landed the packed Boeing 777 on the runway on January.

The newspaper says that he has told friends: ‘I've had enough. They told me I was a hero - but they've treated me like a fool. They said they would be there for me after the crash but I feel badly let down.’

On the afternoon of January 17, Captain Burkill had already handed control of BA flight 038 to Second Officer John Coward when it lost power. But he aided the crash-landing and hours later the pair were paraded as heroes in front of the world's media by triumphant BA Chief Executive Willie Walsh, who said: ‘The captain is one of our most experienced. We are very proud of him.’
Second Officer John Coward and the plane's third pilot soon returned to normal, fully-paid flying duties.

However, Captain Burkill took time off with post-traumatic stress - and within days learned that his salary had been halved from £120,000 to £60,000 through lost bonuses. Weeks of acrimony followed before his salary was increased to £90,000 through the reinstation of a flying bonus, but his away-from-home bonus, worth £30,000 a year, is still being withheld the newspaper reports.

And now he claims BA don't want him to fly again until the inquiry into the cause of the crash is completed. The Mirror quotes a 'BA source' adding: ‘Pete is disgusted at the way he has been treated. He was the hero of the hour and responsible for saving the plane. He even had a letter of personal thanks from the chief executive Willie Walsh.'

‘It beggars belief. They still won't pay him what he was earning when he was flying but it's their fault he can't fly because their report is still not finished. He hasn't been officially grounded because he hasn't had his licence revoked. But he's effectively grounded because he can't fly.

‘They even told him off when they found out he'd sent a couple of the flight's passengers thank-you cards for gifts they'd sent him for saving their lives. Their handling of the whole thing has been woeful.’

Captain Burkill has flown only once since the crash - from Heathrow to Houston on February 19 - but was devastated when two members of the cabin crew told him his actions during the incident had been criticised by a trainer on a course they had recently attended, the Mirror reports. They said they had been told Captain Burkill had ‘frozen’ the moment the Boeing lost power.

But air investigators say he in fact made a crucial wing-flap adjustment in the flight's last 25 seconds which saved the lives of everyone on board. Tests show his action gave the powerless plane a vital 27ft of extra lift - and that the plane cleared the airport's perimeter fence by just 7ft.

Mr Burkill has been ‘crushed’ by the rumours that he froze, according to the newspapers 'BA source'. He said: ‘Pete called his manager and demanded that everyone be told exactly what happened in the cockpit that day. He was told it would all be in the internal report and that he should stay at home until it was published. He's asked every week when it will be completed and keeps being told that it's imminent. Meanwhile he's at home getting more and more depressed. Communication is virtually non-existent. He hasn't spoken to anyone at BA for a month and it seems they consider that to be an acceptable situation.’

It is understood that BA's report into the crash will include high praise for Captain Burkill and that the Air Accident Investigation Board inquiry into the crash will exonerate him or any of the other pilots of any blame. However, the married dad-of-five is now considering emigrating to Dubai and has written to Richard Branson asking for a job at Virgin Atlantic.

A BA spokesman told the newspaper: ‘Captain Burkill is a highly valued member of staff and will continue to receive the full support of British Airways. He has not been grounded by the company or encouraged to stay at home. On the contrary the company has publicly supported the crew of BA38. Senior flight crew management and representatives from other areas of the airline have been in regular contact with Captain Burkill. This will continue to be the case.’

[25check]

>Captain Burkill has flown only once since the crash - from Heathrow to Houston on February 19 - but was devastated when two members of the


I Didn't think BA started LHR-IAH until the end of March......maybe the Mirror could explain that one!!

[jetset lady]

They didn't. It was LGW to IAH but then again, when have the media ever been interested in something as trivial as the facts!

You know what? I'm sick to death of the British media and the way they can't wait to knock anything and anyone and screw whether the facts fit or not. When was the last time any of them reported a story about anything good without adding a negative spin on it? I can't think of anything off hand.

When I worked at a previous charter airline, (also another very well known British Airline - is there a trend here?) we had a massive expose from a bitter temp that hadn't been kept on at the end of the season, telling everyone all about the things that supposedly went on between crew during nightstops. It didn't seem to bother the paper involved that she'd never done a :mad: nightstop in her life and that her claims could cause a lot of tension in families. Nor did it stop certain passengers thinking that they then had to right to feel us up, to check out whether some of her claims were true either!

And what about the cross fiasco and the stupid woman going on about her rights. Again it didn't seem to bother the press or this publicity hungry idiot that pretty much all airlines have the same uniform codes saying jewellery of any kind should be worn under uniforms and that she quite happily signed up to this when she was offered the job. It did however, make me laugh when all the high profile sheep jumped on the band wagon by vowing never to fly with an airline with this sort of policy. Dover's that way guys! Plenty of boats there.

Now, here we are again with this story from yet another so called "source within BA" and of course, the racism row from the Independent thanks to another person that, it seems, hasn't got his own way and has decided to throw teddy out of the pram in a bid for some free publicity. Strange that he's left it so late in his career to speak out. (I'm talking about his political aspirations by the way.)

Sorry, I know this is a major thread drift and feel free to ignore it/delete it etc. but I'm losing the will here. I'm not saying all is well within BA or in fact, a lot of airlines if the other threads are anything to go by, but why do the media seem to be able to report what the hell they want regardless of the truth? I can only hope that most "normal" people will see it all for what it is. Sensationalism with very little, if any depth!

Sorry, rant over. I'll go back to my own threads now! :(

JSL

[Willie Wash]

Sorry about the touch up at the charter liner, it wasn't me! But for you to state on record that not all is well with BA, a sentiment I personally agree, then state that the press is sensationalist do not compute. Certainly I think the point of the Independent article rests squarely with the offloading of the Nigerian passengers. Mr Maughan's comments of the racism within BA and particularily the distinct failure to deal with it merely reenforced the argument. The Nigerian incident, if you didn't notice is a international incident, it will cause BA 'bottomline problems', I also feel your dimissive attitude that persons not agreeing with BA treatment head for Dover and a fleet of boats is out of order. INdeed a typical my way or highway attitude that exists within BA. Keep up the good work. (Rant over)

[apaddyinuk]

The sad fact of the matter is that all these reports in the press are doing more damage to Cpt Burkhill and his reputation and personal life then it is to BA. Slagging off BA is nothing more then a victimless attack (and something everyone is all used to...and perhaps fed up of hearing, no one really listens to it anymore IMHO) but what it is claimed that Cpt Burkhill said and the fact that they have mentioned over and over that he is depressed can do nothing for his credibility as a pilot after all this is said and done. This will life with him for the rest of his life.


Lets not forget the legacy left behind after the BA plane that almost crashed into the hotel on the Bath Road!

[yamaha]

The sad fact of the matter once all the packaging and excess baggage has been removed is that the general attitude or "culture" within BA is/has been heading in the wrong direction for sometime.

If it takes a few headline grabbing articles, irrespective of the precentage of factual content to indicate to "management" that a change in direction and attitude is urgently required, then so be it.

BA needs to get back to where it once was, a worldleading, worldbeating organisation that set the benchmark. What we are witnessing now is nothing more than the symptoms borne from a management team that wants to compete down in the gutter.

[Shark Slayer]

Why does this always happen. Aircraft accident occurs and within 30 seconds everyone and his dog knows or thinks they know what went wrong. The UK has the AAIB and other countries their equivilent. In my time in the UK I only ever heard praise for the AAIB. Heres a suggestion, why dont we let the professionals do the thorough, scientific and independant investigation that they are world renowned for !!!

Capt Burkhill, you have my sincere sympathy, if the accident does'nt kill you, the enquiry will.

Chin up mate.

[Dream Land]

Agree with most that it would be instinct to take over control and shove everything forward, will be interesting to see what actually happened, the crew deserves all the benefit of doubt here, selecting less flap was brilliant thinking, hardly the sign of freezing up. :mad: Best wishes to the crew!

[woodpecker]

the incident had been criticised by a trainer on a course they had recently attended, the Mirror reports. They said they had been told Captain Burkill had ‘frozen’ the moment the Boeing lost power.

I wonder if it's the same SEPT trainers that regularity teach new entrant cabin crew, with regard to the fire extinguishers in the 757 flight deck, that "The BCF's behind the bast**d and the Water Glycol behind the wan**r".

[d71146]

I agree with your sentiments.
I personally think that the management at the top of the tree should be booted out sharpish and new blood parachuted in Rod Edlington springs to mind.
I believe that its still not too late to save the reputation of this once proud airline that almost everyone was proud indeed to come to work for with a spring in their step.
Still that's my two bobs worth.

[Basil]

Shark Slayer (hope it stays that way)

Agreed.

Capt Burkhill was good enough to pass a BA command course.
No-one (and that includes flight engineers and navigators) who has not flown in command knows what it entails. Although, I did consider that it was usually easier than being the FO ;)

Capt Burkhill must remember this and use whatever positive self re-assurance techniques he can to support his confidence. After any kind of incident, self searching begins but one must remember that, whilst one has months in which to come up with alternative courses of action there were only seconds at the time of the incident.

He will need support from friends and family. When on a particularly irritating Far East course, my wife offered to send us a crate of 'Illegitimii Non Carborundum' cathay mugs.

[Dunhovrin]

After any kind of incident, self searching begins but one must remember that, whilst one has months in which to come up with alternative courses of action there were only seconds at the time of the incident.

Having been in exactly that situation myself I quite agree. However, I did not go off on long-term sick after it because people were second guessing me. Like the two F/Os in this incident I got back to work and on with the job. I'm afraid, whilst I have nothing but praise for his actions on the day, this, along with the fleeing to the media, has made him look a chump.

[Mornington Crescent]

Woodpecker's piece about the new entry trainees and the SEP instructor is very worrying.

If he is being funny then it's a good joke for the pub.

If there is indeed someone trotting out this anti-flight deck vitiol to new entrants - then it should stop.

No witch hunt just remove him/her!

MC

[amos2]

That attitude has been around since Pontius!

It's called the tall poppy syndrome! :sad:

[FlyingTom]

Capt Burkill hasn't contacted the media.

The first time it was cabin crew colleagues with some saucy pictures to sell. :ok:

This time it was someone who knew him.

If the Mirror had spoken directly to him they might have got their facts and figures right rather than having to make them up.

It's the same with the recent Independent article about BA pilots.
Old news, dug up (or rather sent to them by another party after BA sent them confidential info in error or whatever reason) and made front page. Not initiated by the subject.

Obviously a no news day and the press trying to keep the bad BA theme going. Shouldn't have to wait long for the next real story though.

If he went to Virgin he would have to start as an FO. Emirates take Captains though.

[411A]

,,,,but was devastated when two members of the cabin crew told him his actions during the incident had been criticised by a trainer on a course they had recently attended, the Mirror reports. They said they had been told Captain Burkill had ‘frozen’ the moment the Boeing lost power.



Hmmm, perhaps this sums up BA to a 'T'....CC run the airline, instead of Flt Ops.

Said 'trainer' should be dismissed without delay, IMO.

Looking on the bright side for the Captain, it ain't bad duty to be paid while sitting at home...golf anyone? Tennis perhaps?:}

[jetset lady]

It just shows how little you know about BA! CC, especially LGW CC, run the airline? You must be joking! We're just pawns to the management, along with the rest of the frontline/ground staff.

I'm sorry but, knowing the crew involved, I'm very sceptical about these comments anyway and I have to say, I've never heard any anti flight crew sentiments from trainers in my time at BA. In fact it's usually the complete opposite. Then again, maybe I've been lucky enought to have good trainers all the way through!

JSL

[Bealzebub]

Why does this always happen. Aircraft accident occurs and within 30 seconds everyone and his dog knows or thinks they know what went wrong. The UK has the AAIB and other countries their equivilent. In my time in the UK I only ever heard praise for the AAIB. Heres a suggestion, why dont we let the professionals do the thorough, scientific and independant investigation that they are world renowned for !!!

It is the "sound bite TV" culture that we live in nowadays. It shouldn't come as any sort of surprise any more. The majority of families now have 200 channels of non stop "entertainment" being pumped via satellite or cable into their 42 inch plasma screen TV's anytime they want to watch, 24 hours a day. If there is an incident at Heathrow, channel 501 and the next 29 channels will cover it non stop as "breaking news" until it becomes stale, or better breaking news breaks ! Then it will be repeated as a segment every 30 minutes in an ever declining sequence order, until the next day it drops off the list. Everybody wants to know "What happened" ? "Experts" (an aviation journalist, a retired pilot and somebody who was once in the headlines themselves for something quite unrelated) will be wheeled into the studios to state quite categorically that, "it is far too early to tell what actually happened and it is the job of the investigators to eventually determine the cause, however blah blah blah..... for the next 5 minutes ! Eyewitnesses are then paraded in front of the cameras to give their take on what happened. Breathless quasi-eyewitnesses are then passed through from the switchboard to the studio to be told to turn their television down (and the recorder on presumably) as the feedback is distorting the transmission, in order to say what thay didn't quite see after they had heard the bang or other loud noise. Then to give their take on what might have been the cause.

News is entertainment. We are its consumers. When something like this happens we all tut tut at the shallow superficiality of it all, but we still tune in to watch. The real investigation might take months or years to determine the cause. When it eventually does it might even be worthy of a brief 30 second mention on those news channels if time and other breaking news commitments permit. The truth is from a news point of view, it is yesterdays news and most people have either forgotten or don't want to know anymore.

These days it is often the case that, whether we have a vested interest, morbid curiosity or no idea at all, we expect to watch our wars as transmitted "flashes" from a suite balcony at the nearby Hilton hotel. Authenticity is a celebrity reporter in a flak jacket and helmet, reading to a mobile phone camera. This, alternating with their other commitments in the studio, or taking part in some "reality TV competition or talent show". We want to know by the end of the day why an aircraft crashed. If we don't actually know, we expect the eyewitnesses and on-call experts to have provided enough pulp and roughage to have digested the likely (spoon fed) cause in our own mind.

News is no longer simply reporting an event. It is about providing opinion and delivering it as entertainment. The newspapers then have their turn the following morning, their lateness compensated by the fact they can pick the best of the previous days photos to use on their front page. This news media entertainment has been evolving for decades and cannot possibly surprise anybody anymore !

For the participants in these events the realities are normally much less superficial. There are months and years of the real problems that often associate with any serious trauma. Stress, Stress disorders, changes to routine, changes in the behaviour of family and friends, changes in lifestyle, threat of uncertainty, threat to security, boredom, feelings of guilt, feelings of despair, feelings of anger. These are just a few of the many serious and often debillitating aspects of a trauma that can affect an individual for months or years after the adrenalin has worn off. Perhaps it is understandable why some victims turn to the media when the media is popularly perceived as coming up with answers within a single day ? What isn't so understandable is why those who should have a duty of responsibility and care (including the CEO of a company) would choose or allow the obviously shocked participants to be publically paraded in front of the media within hours of a such a serious incident occuring ? Maybe that particular "buck" didn't stop here !

[Southernboy]

Of course the media will jump on anything resembling a story & without any consideration for the impact on the people involved but Pilots?

How the hell can any of us know what it was like or what we would have done.....we weren't there!

If this kind of crucifiction is what you get when everyone walks away from it heaven help any pilot who survives a crash where people die.

[yamaha]

you're all still missing the point.

If BA management would just get around to managing in a professional manner you would very rarely have something for the press to latch onto.

The old adage "there's no smoke without fire" comes to mind. If you seriously believe that the mirror just invented this to sell newspapers dream on. They have latched onto an element of truth and are making the most out of it. Burkill isn't actually the news, he's a pawn. BA are the news and they draw in the crowds. Thats the reality of the 21st century.

But even that said, the old adage holds true. There really is no smoke without fire. Makes no difference whether he is a nice guy, a hero or the bad guy.

[EBMissfit]

The most important bits of the article are in the last few paragraphs and are needed by the mirror to insure them against slander.

Last night, at his home in Worcester, Captain Burkill refused to be interviewed by the Sunday Mirror. When we put our sources' claims to his wife Maria, she said: "Pete's been treated appallingly. "I'm biased, but I think he's a hero and I think every one of those 151 other people on board his plane that day would say the same."

So he refused to talk to them or offer any legitimacy to their story. Also note that his wife did not say he was treated appallingly by BA, she may have been referring to his treatment by the Mirror group!


Last night BA said: "Captain Burkill is a highly valued member of staff and will continue to receive the full support of British Airways. He has not been grounded by the company or encouraged to stay at home. On the contrary the company has publically supported the crew of BA38.

"Senior flight crew management and representatives from other areas of the airline have been in regular contact with Captain Burkill. This will continue to be the case."

So basically at the end of the article the journo happens to throw in that all of the validation he did to corroborate his sources story is actually more indicative of the story being made up or over exaggerated - But then again why let that get in the way of a nice juicy headline!

[SteveDD]

The source of this story seems pretty obvious to me. The name of Virgin Atlantic features in the Sunday Mirror story twice. Capt Burkill allegedly applied to VS for a new position. Who, other than the captain himself and family, would have known this?

A case of "dirty tricks" in reverse, I think you'll find....

[chintanmanis]

Don't know much about other professions but in this airline business, NEVER, NEVER set up yourself or in any way get others to imply that you are a hero despite whatever great thing you think you may have accomplished. There a many out there EVER READY to knock you down, especially fellow pilots and airline employees who are failed pilot wannabes.

Capt Burkill and his copilots had very little time to cope with this highly unusual occurance and leaving the automatics on reduced workload leaving them free to deal with it. I believed they retracted the flaps to 20degrees which proved to be instrumental in them getting over the fence...these were certainly not pilots who " froze ". As to whether if a better outcome had occurred had he hand flown the " crippled 7 ", it's hard to say except that had he done so after clearing the fence, it would have been a more controlled touch down. However this is 20/20 hindsight with lots of time on the armchair!

[hetfield]

Don't know much about other professions but in this airline business, NEVER, NEVER set up yourself or in any way get others to imply that you are a hero despite whatever great time you think you may have accomplished. There a many out there EVER READY to knock you down, especially fellow pilots and airline employees who are failed pilot wannabes.


Very true and remarkable words.....

[Beerbelly]

It sometimes seems that the easiest way to achieve a fat payout is to claim some sort of discrimination or bad treatment.
PTSD is a real problem, but very difficult to disprove. High profile actions against a large corporate employer often achieve profitable personal outcomes because PR seeking lawyers and PR managers are in a win/win situation. These days, the employment laws offer such protection to the individual that taking on the Company can be a stairway to riches provided one has a thick skin.
BA does not have a good history of winning grievance claims - and let's face it, remembering the payout given to Bob, why should more of us not follow his example?

This is meant as a factual comment, not a reflection on, or criticism of, the heroic Captain Burkhill.

(but I would have taken control and dived the aircraft - then called for a flap retraction....)

[soem dood]

Wow. You guys are a tough crowd. I also am one of those who hates malingerers or those who don't just suck it up and get on with things, BUT, I also believe that until you've been in his shoes... and things sometimes are not as they seem...

I would say that if you haven't read "Am I alive?" by Sandy Purl, you should. The prose surely didn't win any awards for writing expertise, it's a bit treacly and has other flaws, but through all that comes an honest account of what an air crash can do to a life of a crewmember survivor, even one who was lauded a hero (and clearly deserved the appellation.)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE4D71F3CF937A25757C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,948793,00.html

[pilotbear]

My god this place just gets worse.... you really are pathetic. You sit there at your keyboards without a life and know it all 'I would have done this or that....they shouldn't have done x or y'. All of you flying aces would probably have crashed on Hatton Cross tube station.
NO-ONE knows how they will react to any situation until it happens, and something like this is a life changing event for any normal person. The realisation that you could have died, wondering whether you could have done things differently, did you make a mistake etc.
I firmly believe they did the best they could in the few seconds they had, using automatics was the right thing, to take over and fly when you are out of the loop is a bad thing to do.
Hero is a dubious word to use at the best of times, they prevented a bad situation from getting worse which is a good job well done.
BA used him as a publicity stunt which is wrong.
As for the media, they are mostly uninformed W*****s with little or no information of any value to anyone as has been proven time and time again on here.
beer belly..diving the aircraft of that weight from that altitude would just dive you into the ground:ugh: it is not a C172

[Flap 5]

Well said pilotbear. But there again so many out there know better. :rolleyes:

[Bronx]

BA used him as a publicity stunt which is wrong.


Whoa fella.
Capt Burkill went straight to that Max Clifford guy to sell his story to the British tabloids.
OK the story was in his wife's name but don't tell me she did that all on her own without his agreement.

B.

[M.Mouse]

Capt Burkill went straight to that Max Clifford guy to sell his story to the British tabloids.
OK the story was in his wife's name but don't tell me she did that all on her own without his agreement.

It is my understanding that he was advised by BA not to allow that to happen.

That advice appeared to have been ignored.

[Flap 5]

BA put him straight in front of the tv cameras - which was a publicity stunt. Max Clifford's subsequent involvement may or may not have been wrong but BA are also very good at getting the PR wrong. Terminal 5 anyone?

[Ray D'Avecta]

Pilotbear,

using automatics was the right thing, to take over and fly when you are out of the loop is a bad thing to do.

I have to say that the last phase of flight when you should be 'out of the loop' is during the final approach. In fact, my company's SOP require the PF to actively stay in the loop with the AP at all times below 2500'

So, using the automatics may have been the right thing to do, but not for the reasons you state, IMHO.

[PPRNkof]

Pilotbear,

There's plenty of muppets about alright, but it's easy to skip over posts that annoy you ;)! Giving your opinion is what this site's about and there's plenty of occassions you'll come across gems! There's few things in life that don't have negatives.

[Marooned]

One thing that could put this all to rest is the AAIB report. For the crew of BA 38s peace of mind and those of us that fly the bl**dy things let's get some official information as soon as possible not just leaks, gossip & wild speculation.

[Me Myself]

NO-ONE knows how they will react to any situation until it happens, and something like this is a life changing event for any normal person. The realisation that you could have died, wondering whether you could have done things differently, did you make a mistake etc.



:D:ok:

Spot on !!

[Monty77]

You are so right.

I have heard it called a 'Cor, :mad:, look at that!' moment.

When reality is suspended and unbelievably, the peace and calm of seconds earlier disappears in a welter of :mad:hells!'. The bloke sitting next to you is looking right, fixated on something you can't see saying, 'No! No! No!'. The tone of his voice suggests you are in deep dwango.

In your headset there's a load of shouting. (We're talking a 3 man heli crew here).

And sadly, it's not the sim on a Friday afternoon where it's the dealer's call.

Do not judge those guys.

Luckily, I saved my crew that day because I am great.

MMnice:ok:

And for added emphasis:

Woo hoo, oh yeah!:D

[Monty77]

Just to add.

The co had spotted the sandwich van setting off to the other terminal. We were actually on the ground at the time with no engines running, but it was VERY scary.

Can I have some money from somebody now?

Or a job poncing about on long-haul with er, Virgin?

[Monty77]

Nobody bite.

I am being flippant.

[mercurydancer]

I'm not a pilot at all, but I do find the discussions here fascinating. I am a rather nervous passenger so the fact that I could die in an aircraft is prominent in my mind beleive me.

From a non techinical perspective I'm reassured that nothing obvious had been found yet from the BA flight, and the fact that there were no major injuries let alone a fatality means that the crew, all of them, not just the ones on the flight deck, did thier job well. Like many others I will wait for the official report for any firm conclusions.

As for dealing with the press... it is well known that they can turn on almost anyone. If they can turn on the McCanns in thier own tragedy then a pilot and his crew cant expect any mercy. I believe that there is a proverb about devils and long tableware that fits the bill.

[Smilin_Ed]

Mercurydancer is reassured that the board has NOT reported a cause. I'm just the opposite. It would be far better to know just what happened so that preventive measures can be taken. I'd really like to know that they found out WHY it happened before the next time I get in a B777.:sad:

[Sallyann1234]

I'd really like to know that they found out WHY it happened before the next time I get in a B777

How many times has this happened to a 777 landing? - Once.

How many times has this not happened to a 777 landing? - No, I don't know either, but it's a very, very large number.

There are much more likely events to worry about.
Just keep smilin', Ed

[Hiflyer1757]

"I'd really like to know that they found out WHY it happened before the next time I get in a B777."

I think that is a sentiment somewhat shared by a few who operate and travel on the 777/RR combo....they would like to know the problem....and are concerned why it is seemingly taking what appears to be a lengthy time considering the data collection ability of the aircraft.

[Basil]

Sallyann1234,
One of the most sensible comments I've seen.

. . but, of course, we'd all like to know wot did it. My tuppensworth is that we never will.

[Arthur Dent1]

Was the aircraft operated inside the environmental envelope for the whole sector? or will that be in the final report.

[Smilin_Ed]

Sallyann1234 wrote: "There are much more likely events to worry about."

I'm still smilin' because my last trip was in a 767, but I would be a bit puckered had it been a 777. Those of us who fly/flew airplanes take risks every time we walk out to the flight line. If we knew what the problem was, we could compensate and the risk would be lower. Checklists and mandatory flight procedures come about because of lessons learned from previous problems. But, in this case we don't know what caused it and don't know what to do to prevent a repeat. A checklist wouldn't have helped this crew because of the short time available to do anything but avoiding certain flight regimes might have helped minimize risk. I'm still smilin' but as each day goes by without a definitive report, that smile becomes more forced. We can deal with the known. It's the unknown that is most likely to cause us problems.

[Sallyann1234]

I know what you're saying Ed, but there are aircraft in regular airline use with much worse safety records than the 777.

What you are saying is that you would prefer to take a bigger known risk than a smaller unknown risk. That might be human nature but it sure ain't logical.

[stator vane]

he can come to ryanair---

[d71146]

Stator Vane #107

Beardy would snap the guy up think of the free publicity.

[3Greens]

i doubt that Peter would want to return to the RHS though on Virgin PP1. :ugh:
Virgin don't take DEC's

[Basil]

Seen a few people resign from a good job in a fit of pique - silly.

[mercurydancer]

Smilin ed

The operative word is "obvious". I would be more concerned if a major and definitive cause was apparent such as gross negligence in an SOP for instance. I do find it reassuring that so much has been ruled out!

I do take your point, however, that until a specific cause is found then there is always going to be a doubt. It may be a computer fault, maybe not (I would be somewhat anxious on a 777 flight fearing that the flight crew had just seen the blue screen of death on their displays just as the undercarriage was lowered.) Maybe a fuel contamination or freezing, maybe not. I beleive that the Accident investigation people know thier job and will track down the probable if not definitive cause.

[Smilin_Ed]

Sallyann1234 wrote: " What you are saying is that you would prefer to take a bigger known risk than a smaller unknown risk. That might be human nature but it sure ain't logical.


But, we don't know what the unknown risk is. Test pilots get paid more than most because they take on unknown risks. Once those risks are defined, they become less to be feared. Until analysis of the BA038 accident is complete, we won't know what to fear

[misd-agin]

Dream Land (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=80182)
PPRuNe supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,040


Froze up?
Agree with most that it would be instinct to take over control and shove everything forward, will be interesting to see what actually happened, the crew deserves all the benefit of doubt here, selecting less flap was brilliant thinking, hardly the sign of freezing up. :mad: Best wishes to the crew!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4080842) http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4080842&noquote=1)
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At what altitude and airspeed was the decision made to select FLAPS 20?

If you can't answer that question you can't evaluate if it was an appropriate, or inappropriate, decision.

[PoodleVelour]

Quite.
But unless you could quote the speeds relevant to the flap selection and stall speeds, and the acceleration/heightloss relationship, there is no point suggesting it was anything other than an inspired guess.
In fact, it worked, so it all worked out OK, but let's not pretend there was an evaluation of the aerodynamic factors involved in any detail. What if the sink associated with the flap retraction had caused an earlier contact with terra firma? You would all be criticisizing such a subjective and wrong decision.

He guessed.
He guessed right.
He'll make a fortune from the Clifford Industry.

[exeng]

there is no point suggesting it was anything other than an inspired guess.


The reason I am responding to your post is not so much to answer you as to ensure the media are clear that your post is based on a lack of understanding. Please accept my apologies for that term because it is not meant to be insulting.

On the subject of inspired guesses versus the evaluation of the aerodynamic factors involved as mentioned by the above poster.

All Pilots with any experience are well aware of the drag factors evident in the use of Flap 30 or 25 (40 to 30 on 737, or whatever for a given Boeing model). They do not need to get a calculator out to work out the advantage the reduced drag will provide - they know it will will work to their advantage.

To suggest that "he guessed" is incorrect - he didn't guess, he applied his significant expertise and experience as a Pilot and Commander to ensure the best outcome under difficult circumstances.

It has been said before but I think it is worth repeating here. Such scenarios are not trained for, double engine failures yes, but at altitude. Double engine failure when fully configured on short final is the stuff of nightmares - it may seem as if this crew pulled a rabbit out of the hat, but no this crew acted correctly as a result of their training and experience.


Regards
Exeng

[Aviator74]

I thinks it quite obviouse he didn't freeze, and i think the media and public in general were surprised that F/O was flying at all, it should be the Pilot flying not the Co Pilot!!

I myself am a FO on the A320/21 and am surprised when i pop back to use the facilities and get asked things like, "so, when do u finish your training? or how far away are u to becoming a Pilot? or hearing a little kid ask his dad, "is that a pilot?" to which dad replys "No, thats a Co Pilot"

It doesn't really matter all that much, but i dont think the public and media realise that Capt flies one sector and FO the other is the industry standard practice.

[Dream Land]

At what altitude and airspeed was the decision made to select FLAPS 20?

If you can't answer that question you can't evaluate if it was an appropriate, or inappropriate, decision. by misd-agin I agree with you, I thought it was a configuration change that was made after the engine response problem.

[Sean Dell]

Just out of curiosity and in no way a slight on the crew but,

could the Flap setting that helped them clear the fence have been arrived at by simply trying to initiate a Go Around?

ie 'Go Around Flap (up 1 notch) '

Then when the a/c did nothing, they still had the GA flap set?

Cheers

S.D.

[woodpecker]

At what altitude and airspeed was the decision made to select FLAPS 20?

Flaps 20 was NEVER selected.

[NO LAND 3]

A key point that seems to have been missed in this discussion:
The outcome of the pilot's actions or inactions were successful. No lives were lost and injuries were minimal.
Any other combination of actions may have led to a more catastrophic crash. It is not possible to know.
Further more it is reasonable to say they were in all likelihood at least an averagely competent crew. Therefore their actions may well represent the most likely response from an average pilot given the same circumstances. ie most of us would react the same way, in spite of what we may like to think.

[Huck]

On three-engine aircraft it is common to raise the flaps a little bit after loss of a second engine. If on final this is a memory item, on the MD-11 at least.

Perhaps the captain had some three-holer time......

[Moffman]

Listen to yourselves...bunch of aviation geeks commenting on details which are yet to be confirmed!?!

Get a life and wait for the final report to be published.....

[PoodleVelour]

All Pilots with any experience are well aware of the drag factors evident in the use of Flap 30 or 25 (40 to 30 on 737, or whatever for a given Boeing model). They do not need to get a calculator out to work out the advantage the reduced drag will provide - they know it will will work to their advantage.

To suggest that "he guessed" is incorrect - he didn't guess, he applied his significant expertise and experience as a Pilot and Commander to ensure the best outcome under difficult circumstances.

May I respectfully suggest that had he been at the correct Ref speed with landing flap set, and then retracted one stage, the first thing the aircraft would have done is sink. As far as we are all aware, he left the A/P engaged, so presumably without thrust he did not increase speed - we just don't know that part yet, which is another reason that suggesting Diagnosis, Option consideration, Decision, Allocation and Review was unlikely to have been carried out. Further, unless you have heard the CVR, it is not known who suggested / requested a flap retraction, or what speed/height/range formula was used. After the sink, preferably if the speed had been increased to optimum, (perhaps by a shallow dive), then the glide would have been extended. My point is that neither he nor anyone else could have accurately known the interface between the extent of the sink and the subsequent glide with a slightly higher IAS. Hence he guessed. Made an inspired estimate perhaps?
In smaller aircraft, in the days when I worked for HMG, the practising for forced landings covered many many parameters, on approach and on departure. One thing I recall over a number of different aircraft types was the stomach clenching nature of that sink when one retracted a stage of flap at a critical speed and with the engine simulated failed.

.......and yes, I fly Boeings too!

[Dunhovrin]

Beardy would snap the guy up think of the free publicity.

You are joking. A whinging quitter? We'll take the other two men though.

[Starbear]

would someone be kind enough to direct me to the post or even the source where it states the captain (or anyone) changed the flap setting on v short finals. I don't recall seeing any of this in the AAIB updates so wondering how I missed this, everyone seems to have picked this up except me.....nothing new there then.

genuine request.

thanks

[Willie Wash]

To suggest the CPt of the BA 777 is a whinging quitter is downright slanderous. I suggest you certainly don't work for Virgin and more probable some lowlife BA PR snake. I and other PPruners expect you to issue an appology, forthwith.

[Southernboy]

Me neither. Methinks it's just rumour & speculation. Just for a change.

[M.Mouse]

It is a fact that the flaps were moved from their landing position to a lower setting.

If you choose not to believe it then wait for the AAIB report.

[BOAC]

Flaps 20 was NEVER selected
It is a fact that the flaps were moved from their landing position to a lower setting.
- come on guys, you are whetting our appetites with your inside knowledge!

Well at least Starbear and I am intrigued:)

NB Starbear it is in post #127:ok:

[Hand Solo]

Quite why he'd want to waste his time reading the unmitigated twaddle posted on here is anyone's guess. In fact I suspect he has been warned off this site in order to keep his blood pressure down.

[airfoilmod]

The first thing about Captain Burkill, let alone stopping to consider the impact of the incident on his confidence (if any), what are ignorant people doing venturing into the ether?

I wouldn't know. Were it me, I would be shaken. The loss of an aircraft regardless of blame would impact any professional. The state of public discourse has been impacted hugely by the Net, with outcomes positive and negative. In a venue that encourages instantaneous comment, it is not remarkable that many speak and/or post without engaging brain, narrow or otherwise.

Airfoil

[point8six]

I don't find it remarkable at all AIRFOILMOD. It is an unfortunate part of our life that uninformed commentators now have this habit. See it everyday on TV, as that particular station strives to "find the answer" before any others do. As the saying goes "why let the truth get in the way of a good story"!

[fiftytwo]

I have just re read the AAIB Special bulletin 2008/1. There is no mention of flaps being moved. The only reference to flaps is thet the aircraft was fully configured at 1000ft with gear down and flap 30.

I don't believe there has been a further statement since this - or have I missed something?

[woodpecker]

Just believe the flaps were moved from 30, together with various other actions all accomplished in the last 40 seconds.

Given the situation (and a couple of hours to think it over) the only other thing that could have possibly increased the thrust would have been to knock the bleeds off, but they didn't have time on their side to come up with that one.

Of the things they did the flaps had the most effect, others could have helped but didn't!

[BOAC]

"stone, blood, of, out, a, getting".

So, Flap 25, then WP???? Strange AAIB appear to have missed it.............

[BusyB]

and why not turn the eec's off?

Don't get me wrong but the two guys did well, this thread is a total disgrace. With 40 secs to play with nobody could have done more. Every time I log on this thread stands out as a total insult to any professional pilot. As a 777 driver I don't feel that most of the contributions have any credibility at all. Give us all a break and shutup until we get the AIB final report.:ok:

[J.L. Seagull]

You make an exceedingly good point - but we need to remember that it was not any of the PPrune community who decided to put his story on the front page of a Sunday Redtop.
Dead interesting about this Flap issue, and all the people who purport to know definitely and contradictorily.
AAIB may take months, and probably will.

[pilotbear]

good possible point WP, just ignore the tossers who complain that the thread is too contentious for them, they cant handle anything hotter than Hello magazine. They also cant seem to find the OFF button on their computers.
Who knows, if it happens again a hindsight comment might stick in somebody's mind and save their life. That is THE POINT OF DISCUSSION:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Bronx]

BA hero wants to quit

Has he quit yet?

I can't find any more tabloid 'exclusives' online, so I guess not.

[Pontiuspilot]

I guess the offers from the Woolly Pully or the Sandpit haven't materialised yet.:O
On the other hand, I wonder what size cheque he got for the story thus far -anyone any experience of such things?:\

[M.Mouse]

The AAIB have not missed anything. I know for a fact that the flaps were moved from their landing position after the problem occurred.

[overstress]

The pilot did not speak to the paper. It was a 'puff' job. :hmm:

[Arrowhead]

So he's been grounded pending the crash investigation - this is standard procedure for many airlines

So he's lost his flying pay while he's not flying - this is standard for any pilot (and many instructors)

His desire to leave BA may be BS. But it sounds he is not being defended by the airline, and that he feels he should not be on lower pay while grounded.

My sypathies go out to the crew who are stuck in a world where the lawyers are keeping them (and BA) gagged pending the end of the investigation/legal debates, meanwhile the press have freedom to speculate (in some cases totally recklessly). Your turn will come later boys - if BA doesnt want to spend money keeping its pilots' reputation brightly polished, then lets hope BALPA can. Otherwise, the pilots should keep a record of every piece of BS that makes the press and get some damn good lawyers once this is finished.

Glad to hear that the crew appear to be getting more than their basic "on ground" pay.

[G--SPOT]

They have not been on the ground since the accident. In fact I am flying to the same place as the SFO involved tonight, and i know for a fact that he has been flying again for the last couple of months.

The Capt has been back flying but not sure what he's doing now.

[amos2]

After 144 posts nobody seems to know whether the skipper is back flying or not!? Surely someone knows! Is he or isn't he? :ugh:

[Sallyann1234]

After 144 posts nobody seems to know whether the skipper is back flying or not!? Surely someone knows! Is he or isn't he?
That's a private matter between him and his employer.
Why should YOU be told?

[brakedwell]

Well said Sallyann. The Anoraks should stick to Plane Spotting.:ugh:

[Pontiuspilot]

Very well put Sally. It also begs the question as to how Mr M. Mouse knows for a fact that the flaps were moved from their landing position after the problem occurred. I suppose this includes the period after landing, when things may have been moved due to impact or investigation, however how he can know for a fact is, I suggest, a mystery.

Ref the article, some might wonder why, if the said article was a "puff job" (whatever that is) why the Captain has not demanded an apology from the paper, or sued them, or at least written a letter of disclaimer.
More and more interesting.:8

[amos2]

I think you need some help with the English language, brakedwell!

[M.Mouse]

Pontiuspilot, leaving aside your obvious sarcasm it is really irrelevant whether anybody chooses to believe anything I say.

If anybody is really interested then trawl through my posts relating to BAW38 once the AAIB publish and see if anything I have said is factually incorrect.

[Knumb Knuts]

:bored: Irrespective of the reason for this accident, and irrespective of his flying status, this guy should be on full pay. I'll bet my Knumb Knuts that the hi-flyers running that show whose backsides are bolted to the ground don't lose a penny in their over-inflated pakages IF they are held out of their useless duty for any reason.
What was it I heard? That joker Willy ******, who runs that outfit said he takes responsibility for the T5 fiasco, then fired the two managers who had over twenty years in the company. I'll bet they got a handy little package - now living in Surrey mansions.

[brakedwell]

I think you need some help with the English language, brakedwell!

OK amos2 - then correct me. :oh:

[Starbear]

M. Mouse:

It is a fact that the flaps were moved from their landing position to a lower setting. If you choose not to believe it then wait for the AAIB report.I assume and hope this was not directed at me as my query was absolutely genuine and I certainly had no inclination to disbelieve the statement. This topic/thread is so large that like many I dip into and out of it and it simply struck me that whilst this flap movement was being openly discussed I could not recall actually reading anything to say it had actually happened. I am perfectly prepared to accept your word and can quite easily believe that you are in a position to know. But you have also set my mind at rest in confirming that I hadn't read any official reference to it.

Separately, I notice with much dismay the daily Telegraph (UK used to be repected daily newspaper) makes the statement that "fuel freezing caused the crash". Nowhere in the latest Special bulletin from the AAIB to which they refer, do the investigators make this assumption or claim. They simply say that their continued focus is along these lines (pardon pun) mainly in the abscence of any other hard faults.

It is very disappointing that papers like the torygraph and many others get away with outrageous statements as fact by the little get out of placing the fact in quotation marks. Are their journalists really incapable of reading and digesting even such a short bulletin and then reporting accurately. Suppose it's more dramatic than "Investigators still have no answer to crash"

[Storminnorm]

Pontiouspilot. A " puff job " means Huffing and Puffing surely?
Not that it is particularly important.

[Willie Wash]

Looks like Cpt Burkhill is still a Hero, nothing in the report point his way. BA don't deserve such a fine Pilot. I hope VS does step in and snap him up.And if you lot think for one second the frontpage was a 'puff' job then you are in cloud cuckoo or so far up the BA PR machines back[assage that you can't see the sun!It is widely known that Cpt Burkhill feels betrayed by an airline he nearly lost his life working for, the 'third' person viewpoint of the article simply avoids BA's internal policy of allowing staff to speak to the media. The BA GAGGING clause...... probably illegal anyway and it has never been enforced.Despite all the speculations, whether he did whether he didn't, one thing is certain, most staff currently feel betrayed by BA. When the profit share doesn't arrive this week and the redundancies begin in the near future, all those BA PR lot will be the first out the door. A deafening silence will befall PPRUNE as their contracts are severed!

[bugg smasher]

Although it has been expressed on this thread several times, I think some things bear repeating here.

Given the very last-minute nature of the emergency, I think Capt Burkhill and his first officer acted as all of us would have done in a similar situation, there but for the Grace of God go I and all of my miserable ilk.

Recent aviation history is replete with examples of pilots suddenly faced with situations that they not only did not train for, but could never have; scenarios of unforeseen, technically-induced, digitally generated chaos that somehow slipped through the minutiae of the engineering and design processes employed by the aircraft and engine manufacturers. (Perhaps a few less pub visits lads, a little more concentration if you please.)

That every passenger and crew member walked away from this accident with body and soul still conjoined should be sufficient judgment of this crew, to suggest otherwise is an expression of the meanest churlishness. In my mind they are, in fact, heroes. All of them, the entire cabin and cockpit crew that day. I suspect anyone who has more than a passing knowledge of this business would agree.

On a more personal note, Capt Burkhill, you rock brother, you can fly my wife and kids anytime, anywhere. If the BA Office of General and Very Annoying Minions is giving you problems, we could use a guy like you here in New York City!

bugg

[Willie Wash]

What a great post, best i've seen on the subject. Nice one Bugg Smasher, shame to all those critical know alls!

[CityofFlight]

Way to go Bugg! :D:D

[Spaz Modic]

:hmm: Well, pilot contributors to these forums seem to forget - maybe they never knew, most of them being young, that after management became glued to seats instead of strapping them on, they have exhibited an intense contempt for pilots.
Management appears to think airlines hinge on its financial expertise, when that is but a part of the big picture.
The focal points of the big picture are the two seat immediately behind the windscreen of any passenger carrying (these days) jet.
Unfortunately, pilots being what they are often forget they are vital to the financial wellbeing of the big picture.
In the case of the Captain and First Officer of the BA B777 in the grass, until the investigation is complete these guys should be on full pay - you can bet your goolies any manager and union guys would be.:D

[interpreter]

If the captain is currently "invisible" and keeping "mumm" then that is the best thing he can do. He can simply build up a record of all the scurrilous comments etc and in this litigious day and age wait for a chance in the future to sue. I feel for him not just because it is taking so long but also because it was not as if a problem arose at 30,000 but when you are just 600 feet above the ground you hardly have time to think and simply react as best you can. How many of us have said " C****t that was close - why the hell did I do that" or "why the hell did I not do that"

Leave the guy in peace. I just hope he is receiving full pay because if he is not and at the end of the day he is completely exonerated of any major or minor misdemeanour it is going to cost Willy a packet.

[sanjosebaz]

Starbear...it simply struck me that whilst this flap movement was being openly discussed I could not recall actually reading anything to say it had actually happened.I'm pretty sure that the initial AAIB report (January) did mention Flaps20. Subsequent bulletins seem to have 'forgotten' this evidence.

[BOAC]

I have looked at that report, sjb, and there is only a mention of Flap30, and Danny decided on this in one of the early posts.............


Quote:
The AAIB is explicit in saying that flap 30 was selected. No mention is made of decreasing the flap selection.
Which is why each time someone claims or states (mistakenly or presumptuously) that flap 20 was selected, I move the post to the WAG's thread. :rolleyes:

[Bellerophon]

BOAC

I hadn't seen the earlier post from Danny, but note that you quote him as saying:

...Which is why each time someone claims or states (mistakenly or presumptuously) that flap 20 was selected, I move the post to the WAG's thread...

I'm not quite sure why he has decided to do this - other than he's got fed up with the amount of rubbish being spouted about this accident - but it's his website, so he can do what he likes!

However, not all claims on this topic are mistaken or presumptuous, some are accurate, as, for instance, are the comments by M.Mouse.

The flaps were moved, from 30, by the Captain, prior to impact.

So that's another candidate for the move to WAG's.


Best regards

Bellerophon

[BOAC]

Up to him as you say! I understand that the internal reports state a move from 30 to 25. It is just surprising that the AAIB have not mentioned it.

See you in JB:)

[Hand Solo]

Official company comms are saying the flap was moved from 30 to 25.

[amos2]

Without a doubt it is time to bring this thread to a close!

[Notso Fantastic]

Couldn't agree more. With the morons taking over and the idiocy introduced at the end, in the absence of any further news or confirmation, perhaps it is time to give the crew of this flight the privacy I think they have earned? And stop giving people a forum to apparently iron out their frustrations and take a general pop at pilots?

Please, can we shut this nonsense down and close this thread? It cannot do the captain, God forbid, any good to come here and see the rubbish being spouted.

[Willie Wash]

He's a HERO again in BA's eyes. I'm sure that will be little comfort to the man after the 'betrayal' he has experianced at the hands of a national disgrace.

Good luck to Mr Burkhill, may his skill, professional judgement and luck help him secure employment with an employer that actually gives a damn about its employees.

[Willie Wash]

Exciting news for animal lovers. Primates have been filmed using a sophisticated “tool kit” to dig termites out of their nest. The videos show the British Airwars PR managers using a big stick, stripped of its leaves, to tunnel a hole deep into the nest. The administrators then dig away at the mound with theirhands and feet, before pushing a much thinner twig, with a frayed end, into the hole, and pulling out the insects that havecrawled on to it. The film, secretly recorded in the Grand Duchy by a team from the Thick Planck Institute in Mevagissey, is believed to be the first toshow Corporate PR bureaucrats systematically using more than one tool to accomplish a particular task. “They’ll betelling us how to do our jobs next” mused BA Hero Pilot Burkhill. Isn’t nature wonderful?