Questions from a future freight dog!

[jb2_86_uk]

Hi Chaps & Chapettes.

I am about to start an integrated course with Cabair and all being well (yeah, as if!), should be the holder of a shiny new fATPL by August 2009!

I attended an open day at CTC as well as Cranfield, and while I was at CTC (in 2006! a while ago!) the guy giving the presentation spoke about employment prospects for someone such as myself. He said that exceptional pilots will be put forward to operators such as BA, he also said that in times of unexpected industry growth, airlines will come looking for pilots. And then almost under his breath (!!!) he mentioned places with cargo airlines can be offered also. Now,please, correct me if I am wrong - but I would have thought the freight industry would be a great arena in which to gain experience. Here is my reasoning:
No PAX to complain about bumpy landings! :ok:
No PAX to complain about anything :ok::ok:
Generally flying at night when the skies are a little quieter??? a bit more relaxed actual flying time (im sure made worthwhile by very frantic ground operations?)

I would appreciate anything you could add to my little 'pro' list. Indeed if you care to burst my little niaeve bubble, please feel free! As for the 'con's - I am all ears. (I dont consider night work a "con" I have been doing night work on-and-off since I was 18, and permanently for the last year - call me crazy but I actually like working through the night:}

A few more questions (for anyone who is still reading!...)

1. I obviously know some carriers take on direct entry first officers, but is this a common trait or are these positions like rocking horse poo and again, only offered to the "exceptional" pilots. It my absolute intention to be an "exceptional pilot" but at this stage I need to be realistic!!!!

2. Like (I assume: ) all the people in my position, 'the dream' is to finish the course and find myself in the right hand seat of a jet immediatly. I cant stress enough just how much I understand that the chances of that happening are very slim, however upon getting a job, if it was to be with a cargo carrier, how likely is it that it could be a jet? Do jet operators employ low-hour FOs? Or would I have to start with a TP company to get my hours up and defrost my ATPL?

3. Type Ratings: Is the type rating for, example, a 757-200F the same as for a 757 PAX varient? or is a conversion/whole new TR required when shifting to the self-loading freight? I ask because....

4. What are the chances of switching from freight to PAX (or vice-versa)? Do many people do it or do you start down the single path when you get your first job from training and stick with it untill retirement.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read my post and I look forward to any informative replys!

JB

[BRS_flyer]

Hi JB

Ever fancied Belgium?? TNT will consider those with fATPL, MCC and as little as 250hrs TT for FO positions flying the 146. You do have to live within 1 hour of EBLG though. See Link for details:

http://www.tntairways.com/96_Pilots.html

I belive the TR may be bonded, but AFAIK it would be the same TR as flying a 146 for a PAX operator.

[FougaMagister]

jb2_86_uk - for a wanabee, you have a fairly accurate grasp of the freight dog business!

Pros of the job:

- no PAX to complain about landings, turbulence, catering, delays, slots, missed connections or anything else for that matter :ok:
- delays limited to late loading or slot (or more rarely, tech issues)
- quiet skies therefore no step climbs (usually cleared straight to FL190, 210 etc), lots of short cuts en route, direct routings, very few holds
- lots more hands-on, "seat of the pants" flying :) i.e. flying the SID in manual, or switching the AP off in the descent and doing the ILS "raw data" for the heck of it, doing practice CAT II approaches when we feel like it, and visual approaches whenever possible
- doing 2-3 sector nights as opposed to 4-sector days
- having more than minimum rest (so get to actually visit the places we fly to)
- staying in 4/5* hotels downroute
- more than the minimum days off every month
- getting duty pay - not sector pay
- getting paid more than in comparable PAX airlines for less work
- great ambiance
- contributing to the economy rather than ferrying rowdy dressed-up p***-heads on stag do's/hen nights etc.


Cons:

- working at night is OK; working through the night can be very tiring (but can be managed). No one should do it for their whole career
- the flying can be repetitive
- you may fly older aircraft (who have usually had a first career as PAX aircraft)
- no hosties :sad:
- usually no galley (on the smaller aircraft)

Overall, the pros largely overweight the cons. The attitude of the CTC guy proves he doesn't have a clue about cargo airlines - like a lot of other people in the industry. Of course, if people still believe the bulls**t fed to them by large FTO's marketing departments re. glamour and showing off through the terminal a la De Caprio with hosties in tow (remember "Catch me if you can"?), then they will always look down on freight dogs. I couldn't care less. We don't do glamour. We just work hard, fly well, and have the time of our lives.

Cheers :cool:

[Boxshifter]

It's the same TR! Why should there be any difference? No, there is nothing placed on your license like "Cargo Only" ;)

[hotelmodemetar]

No PAX to complain about bumpy landings!
No PAX to complain about anything
Generally flying at night when the skies are a little quieter??? a bit more relaxed actual flying time (im sure made worthwhile by very frantic ground operations?)

I would appreciate anything you could add to my little 'pro' list. Indeed if you care to burst my little niaeve bubble, please feel free! As for the 'con's - I am all ears. (I dont consider night work a "con" I have been doing night work on-and-off since I was 18, and permanently for the last year - call me crazy but I actually like working through the night

You are right. I have experience on both PAX and Cargo operations, and frankly, on the overall aspect I really prefer Cargo operations.
Once seated on the flight deck there is absolutely no diference at all beacuse the door must be closed during the whole flight (as it is mandatory since 11S), hence the flight deck is the same and you don't care of what you have in the back (human freight or freight). We basically fly the plane exactly the same way regardless of PAX/ freight.
What you won't have in cargo operations is:
- No delayed passengers doing their late duty free shopping while you are about to lose your departure slot !
- No wheelchairs that take ages to board and disembark !
- No bloody Passenger announcement to make !
- No seatbelts to switch ON and OFF and ON and OFF again each time it's getting bumpy !
- No brainless cabin crew calling you while you are busy, eg: on final apprach with busy traffic !
- No "cabin secure" that you have to wait before each Take off and Landing ! ( It's quite common to refuse an immediate departure because you have not received the "cabin secure" yet )

-No passenger complaning, better say, no passenger at all :ok:

Also flying at night is nice and a bit quiter than during early afternoon. You see the moon, the stars, shouting stars, and the beautifful sunrise.

Personnaly I prefer flying at night rather than having to wake up every mornings at 4 o'clock to go to work for a typical long duty PAX flight.

Also, in my opinion, Pilots flying for passengers seem to be very proud of their uniform, golden stripes, doing PAs with there best voice, etc... whereas Cargo pilots don't care at all about those stupid things :hmm:

Cheers :cool:

[jb2_86_uk]

Thanks for your opinions guys, I must say Cargo is looking more and more attractive the more I think about it!

4/5* hotels and more time downroute sounds great, they are the perks of the job I am most looking forward to! Shame about no hosties though, I overlooked that part :8

The reason I asked about the TR was mainly due to possible alterations in checklists - ie seatbelt signs & cabin secure notification.

As for relocation, I am young with no family of my own, so would be quite happy to relocate (And to escape the Tax-hell of this country [UK]). A language barrier could be tricky though. I have a small grasp on the French language, but I am not sure it would be enough to get by in day to day life with fluent french co-workers. Of course with an offer on a 146 I could always get the books out again during my free time after my ATPL exams are out of the way and am spending the remaining 6 months of the course just flying :ok:

Thanks again guys

JB

[underread east]

I completed the Cabair integrated course 6 years ago and went (almost) straight in to RHS B757 cargo ops with 250hTT. BA did the TR (ex BA a/c) and there was absolutely NO modification to it (the TR not the a/c!)

PROS as mentioned above.
Plus as a low hours pilot you will generally fly more shorter sectors so your actually level of exposure to flying tends to be built much more repidly than pax colleagues without any of the stress of 20 minutes turnarounds.

CONS
The biggest from a low hours pov, HOURS....Most cargo (read integrators ala UPS, DHL, TNT) operate a hub/spoke system that requires a sort of all cargo in middle of night and leaves you sitting in a crew room for several hours....You will achieve same DUTY time as your pax colleagues in a year, but only a fraction of the flying- half to a third...My average is around 300h pa - all of which means if you stay it will take you a LOOOOONG time to achieve sufficient hours to be considered for a command.

Enjoy Cabair, I spent an excellent year there and loved every minute of it. Regardless of your chosen route at the end, it is worth every ounce of the blood sweat and tears required to achieve what you want. Above all, Good Luck as that is still what you need most of. Regardless of what the recruiters tell you at their Fairs, competition is still very very fierce for those coveted RHSs if you've got no experience.

[jb2_86_uk]

Thats great news U.E.!

I would love to spend my career on the 744, but know that will have to come several years down the line. However jumping stright onto a 757 would be amazing! I would assume that 757 RHS - 747 RHS would be a logical progression?? I have read before that at times of promotion, a FO would be offered RHS on a larger aircraft or captain on the same aircraft. Is this generally the case?

It's a shame what you say about not logging the same hours as your PAX peers, but I am only 22 so have a good 40 flying years ahead of me (assuming good health!) - I am not in a mad rush to get 4 gold bars on my shoulders. However with a 70k loan hanging around my neck when I finish my training, a well paying jet job would still be my goal!!!

I am very excited about Cabair, I have never been so determined to well before - including my failed university degree! :{. I have done the whole student experience of getting drunk and falling over, and I have paid the price by looking and feeling like a failure in the eyes of my family and friends. This is where I turn it all around! Its also great to hear another positive testimonial from a cabair graduate. People in other forums seem very quick to mouth-off and generally b!tch about the organisation. Apparently these days although the groundschool is top notch, the flying school is a bit chaotic and it pays to do a bit of brown nosing - if that is the case... so be it! :ok:

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it!


JB

[FougaMagister]

I believe flying only 300hrs/year is specific to DHL crews - bit of a hotrod the 757! :ok: While not flying a jet, I managed to log about 600hrs over the past year - 75% at night! We fly slower... leaves me time to take pictures in flight - or like hotelmodemetar, shoot UTube videos! ;) There are also well-paid TP jobs if one looks for them hard enough.

More pros and cons of freight jobs:

Cons:

- we don't get staff travel or standby tickets (but are entitled to Touchdown)

Pros:

- we clock in Air Miles fast while positioning on PAX airlines all the time

Cheers :cool:

[CEJM]

As for relocation, I am young with no family of my own, so would be quite happy to relocate (And to escape the Tax-hell of this country [UK]).


Unfortunately JB, you might find that the TAX HELL is even bigger on the other side of the channel. :yuk: (Netherlands Max. 52%, Belgium 50%)

[portsharbourflyer]

I would say that if freight is your interest then the extra expense of an integrated course is not worth it.

You will find that DHL will occasionally take on low hour FOs but they have to limit the number of low houred pilots due to the need to keep an even demographic of experience in the company.

Go modular and then instruct full time to get a 1000 hours; this will see you with a reasonable chance of getting taken on by a night freight operator. With a 1000 hours the time to unfreezing your ATPL will be reduced.

The other option is to use the money saved by going modular to self fund an ATR rating at Skyblue. I know Air Contractors have taken serveral FOs from Skyblue in the last three years.

[jb2_86_uk]

FougaMagister: What is meant by "entitled to touchdown"? Thanks

CEJM: I had no idea tax could be worse overseas than over here! yikes. Whats the deal in Australia??? lol

Portharbourflyer: I am already committed to the integrated course. Though I will admit I could have done more research into the pros and cons of Integrated vs Modular... please lets not start that on here as well!!!!... But I do not regret my decision and am still happy to get the whole course done and dusted in one big session.

Thanks for the continuing input, its great to hear from you all and get a good perspective of the industry. I have another question! lol:

Do the pilots get involved with the loading of the aircraft? I have been reading through the strange cargo thread and stories there about the pilots covered in mgnuggets flour and cleaning up after osterichs!!!! I am not afraid to get my hands dirty, the job I have been doing since I was 16 is all very manual labour intensive! I just assumed pilots would be doing walk arounds and setting up the fmc and what-not while the "ramp rats", as I gather they are affectionaly know :O, do all the loading and securing!

Keep it coming fellas, it is much appreciated!

JB

[FougaMagister]

I meant Touchdown Holidays - discounted travel agent for airline/airport personnel.

The most involved I get in the actual loading is to pick up the odd parcel falling off the belt loader!

Cheers :cool:

[portsharbourflyer]

I am not starting a modular vs integrated debate here, but what I will tell you at the company where I work a low houred pilot will not get interviewed, a pilot holding 800-1000 hours will. The advantage of an integrated course is the chance of getting a recommendation to an airline at low hours; which in Cabairs case is most likely to be Flybe.

Again you could do a full time modular package with Cabair in less time than the integrated course. Cabair at the moment would probably sponsor you for your FI rating. You can still become an instructor after doing the integrated route but if you going to instruct it helps if you have spent 20,000 less on your training. It makes living on instructor earnings that much easier.

[hotelmodemetar]

- we don't get staff travel or standby tickets (but are entitled to Touchdown)

But you get free jumpseats for your friends and familly on all the network routes :cool:

[FougaMagister]

I'm not sure that friends or family members would thank us after using our jumpseats for several hours! :ouch:

[hotelmodemetar]

You're right, the ATR is not very confortable. Nevertheles, it might improve on the B737 :ok: :p :p :hmm: