Just Another Wanabee...

[MrBrightside]

So here we go again, perhaps...

Hi, Im MrBrightside and I am a wanabee commercial airline pilot...

My story, probably like many others on this forum, is as follows. I am currently in my last year of A-level education with my final exam in June. I made the decision last year that Uni, despite it's obvious querks, wasn't for me. So where does that leave me after school... hmm good question and one that has captivated my mind for months now. I have looked/researched into many possible options available to me but none of them have really jumped out and said "pick me" (figuretively speaking).

My initial decision was to perhaps work for a year (I currently work in Tesco... woop woop) and save much needed cash for my voyage ahead, but my parents take a different view on this. They believe that partaking in training straight away would be much more beneficial for me. With the current economic climate looking, well, not too good I believe that doing training may be wiser over a longer period of time i.e modular route, maybe with ppl/hour building done in US. (personal opinion). I suppose what I am really getting at is if you guys were to put yorselves into my shoes, so to speak, what would you do? Of course this is ultimatly my decision but I believe seeing things from someone else's perspective may help.

Thank you in advance
MB

[AlphaMale]

Plenty of people in your shoes. I'm sure if you read threads where wannabes are asking for financial advice you'll see WWW giving some very good information.

How old are you?

If I was 21 and had saved £7k (from Tesco) I'd get a class 1 medical (to see if my dream can become a reality - No Class 1 = No CPL = No Job).

Then I'd take my cash to the USA and get a PPL and spend the rest on hour building. If I came back and was still hell bent on wanting to become a Airline Pilot I'd get a full time job (contracting pays well) in what I am qualified to do (IT for me). And get as much overtime in as possible, all the while researching on best schools and the debates on CPL in a ME/SE CPL before ME-IR or ME-IR before CPL, Spain v UK v US etc.

When you have your route all planned out lower your working hours and start the ATPL Ground School (12 months part time). I'm sure you'll have a fair amount of cash in your account by the time you finish your last ATPL exam and will have clear goals on what you want to achieve.

Get the rest of your HB / CPL / ME-IR / MCC and hey presto! ... You might want to consider doing an FI course if you think you'd be a good instructor and feel you have something to offer the industry.

Ofcourse if you are 35, have a wife and kids, mortgage and huge debts then it might not be as simple as the above :}

... Ohh another thing, if you have good A'level grades and think you can cut it, why not try the CTC scheme? As seen here (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/cadets/selection.asp).

Good luck

[MrBrightside]

Cheers for the reply AlphaMale.

I am 18 years old... still a young buck. I have looked into the CTC scheme.. definatly has not been ruled out. Im not 100% sure on the finances for this scheme however.. I am aware that it is a sponsored programme and that you do not have to pay for the training but you are required to raise a security bond?.. What does this consist of?

The route you have stated seems to be a good one. I like the fact that you are able to train at your own pace. Say if I were to get my PPL in the US and come back to the UK to work for another period of time, again, to save some money, what jobs do you think would be available for someone with only A-levels and no degree? Do I return to Tesco... after all "every little helps".

Thanks
MB

[preduk]

CTC ask you to get a £60-70k loan for their training, however the loan is unsecured (unlikes OAA, FTE etc) you are also covered for up to 30k worth of training.

Once you finish your training, CTC pass the loan over to the airline who then pay you money back each month plus the interest.

Personally (my opinion only) if your wanting to go commercial I wouldn't go over to the states to train, I would learn in the UK if you can. It means that you will:

- Get used to flying in the UK environment/weather
- Get used to UK RT (It differs in the US)

The US isn't all that much cheaper once you include travel, accommodation costs etc

I have a degree, do I think it's going to help me? Do I hell! lol They aren't really caring about your degree, they are wanting to see how you do in the Sim, Interviews, team excersies etc so I wouldn't worry about not having a degree however I would recommend having A-Levels

[planecrazy.eu]

Sounds sensible, doing it step by step, but if you do your PPL in the states i would then find one training centre and stick with it for the rest of the cpl.

I would do as said, get that C1, otherwise you doss around for years chasing the dream, and then find out there is something little about you that makes you unable to get a C1 Medical.

Returning to Tesco would be a choice, but wouldnt be the best one.

I bet you could find a job at an Airport or Airfield. Lots of small flying schools have, what i could describe as an admin boy. Maybe you get some discount of flying then?

Your still very young, and no real rush, enjoy your teenage years as they all start getting more serious each year after that.

[AlphaMale]

Tesco helped me pay for my driving lessons, buy my first/second/third car and helped me through Uni. All from working in the PFS on weekends while studying in the week.

With A levels and experience from working there why not become a team leader (they are on a tidy sum of money). Might give you some people management skills and show you're trustworthy?

But getting an admin job at a local flying center would be much better, all you'll hear on this forum is 'networking' and that is possibly the biggest asset you can have after gaining your fATPL. Getting to know the CFI and fellow FI's will put you in good stead should you wish to go down the FI route.

As said above, you might be better off in staying with 1 place to gain your CPL & ME-IR. I'll be going to US for my PPL due to the amount of time it takes to gain a PPL in the UK (weathers fault).

[MrBrightside]

Thanks lads for your replies.

I have emailed a few of my local airports for any open positions available over the coming months but have recieved no reply as of yet. Perhaps I'd be better off giving them a ring..

Just wondering AlphaMale when you hope to get over to the States to complete your PPL? What flight school do you plan to go to?

Anyone heading to the US this summer to get a bit of flying done?

Thanks
MB

[jb2_86_uk]

MrBrightside!

About 4 years ago:
Aged 18.
Finishing A-levels with moderatly good grades in Physics, Maths & Design Tech.
Working part-time at a Morrisons supermarket.
Dreamt of being an Airline pilot but never imagined it was a feasible plan, nor did I have a clue on how to do it.


I went to University on a doomed Mechanical Engineering Course. The course wasnt for me, it was all noses in text-books and had no hands-on work whatsoever. The closest we got were 'lab' sessions when we listened to a polish guy try to explain "choked flow" whilst stood 1ft away from a very noisey set of apparatus. I lost all motivation for the course and subsequently dropped out after my second year.

I moved back home and continued to work at Morrisons where I was promoted a couple of times and a career in retail was looking like a possibility. But I wasnt happy and didnt fancy spending the next 50 years in a supermarket kissing up to a**hole customers.

I contacted EasyJet and pretty much said I want to be an airline pilot. They ushered me toward CTC. A year and a half later plus a failed CTC interview, I am a couple of months away from starting an integrated course at Cabair.

Im not getting into the whole integrated vs modular 'royal rumble' - I just wanted to share with you my experience of the last 4 years.

My advice would be by all means get into the industry and start networking, if you can of course. But as AlphaMale pointed out, stayting on at tesco and trying to get a promotion certainly wont hinder you. It looks great on your CV to say you have had X many people working beneath you. Also sticking with tescos will show you to be a loyal employee!

One other thing, should you require a professional studies loan (or equivelent), they will ask to see a contingency plan - in my case this was a letter from my boss at Morrisons saying if anything happened that meant I couldnt complete the cabair course, I could start back at Morrisons immediatly. Its not as if another supermarket job would be hard to find, but it was a neccessery stage of the loan application - so keep your boss sweet :ok:

Good luck MB and keep us updated!

JB

[usedtofly]

Mr Brightside,

You are young and clearly quite intelligent, why are you so convinced that a degree is not for you?

Find a subject that you are INTERESTED in and study that. A degree won't guarantee you a job but it WILL place you higher up in the food chain. It does not really matter what the degree is in, just having one WILL make a difference.

Aviation is a VERY volatile industry and it would be wise to have an alternative option.

Besides which, you will miss out on what might possibly be three of the best years of your life!

Good luck anyway, just make sure you don't only listen to what you only want to hear.

Cheers

UTF

[portsharbourflyer]

Usedtofly,

If someone is to do a degree then these days with tuition fees and the price of flight training they really need to pick something that has good earning potential. Quite often the correlation between earning potential and interest rarely goes hand in hand. So doing a degree that interests you but with little employment or earning potential is a waste of time.

I am sure there are plenty of media studies graduates now working in supermarkets.

Mr Brightside

If I was 19 again, knowing what I know now. I would go to the US, do a FAA PPL, hour build, FAA CPL ME/IR, try and then get sponsored for a J1 visa, then do a FAA CFI and work in the US an instructor for a year. Now you are building hours, getting paid (not very much mind you) and while wokring in the US you can start studying for your JAA ATPL thoery by distance learning. At the end of the year you will could have a 1000 hours in the log book, all 14 ATPL exams passed. Then on return to the UK you are ready to do your JAA conversions. It is correct that doing the FAA route will not nessarily save you money, but it is useful to have both JAA and FAA rating due to the number of N registered biz jets in the UK. Also in the US it may be possible to do your FAA MEI, therefore it may be possible to start buiding multi time in the US during your year.

Your conversions will give you plenty of time to get used to UK RT; furthermore the comment about the weather is irrelevant, because in the UK most of the time you don't fly if the weather is bad. The only thing which gave training in the US a bad name was one or two shoddy schools holding JAA approvals.

In four weeks a ppl will not experience a range of weather conditions to prepare them for flying in the UK. But if you spend a year in the US you will still experience a range of conditions.

With a 1000 hours in the logbook your employment chances are going to be fairly good. Therefore in the space of the time it takes to do an integrated course you would have both FAA and JAA ratings a 1000 hours.

If you were really lucky you could even get work in the UK on an N or even M registered aircraft without doing the JAA conversions (unlikley but not impossible).

[AlphaMale]

Just wondering AlphaMale when you hope to get over to the States to complete your PPL? What flight school do you plan to go to?

I'm looking to do a JAA PPL with either OFT or OBA by taking 4 week off work this summer (sooner the better). I'm hoping to get my exams done before I leave for the USA. But I'm still very tempted to do what 'portsharbourflyer' has said above with doing all FAA licences and ratings and then coming home to the UK with 1,000+hrs under my belt and ready to tackle the JAA CPL/ME-IR.

BUT it would require me to delay the process (due to funds) a little while longer and letting out my apartment (I currently live alone).

[Nathan.Hunter]

i'd agree with usedtofly, on the uni front, make sure you really dont want to do it! (as the bonuses far out weigh the negatives) and if you have got a bit of money saved now doing say and aerospace degree (i take it you enjoy aerospace) you could do you ppl whislt at uni and they will both help each other out!

I dont like it when people say uni is a waste of time because thats rubbish! best years of your life i'd say!

i would stay away from an ....ology or a studies thou =-)


End of the day do what you want to do when your young as you may not get another chance to be able to do somethings! i'm 20 n wish i 18 starting uni again lol

[MrBrightside]

Im going to have to disagree with you lads.. (nothing wrong with a friendly debate eh..) What about the financial costs of going to University? I understand the obvious benefits of going ie. back up plan if all goes pear shaped, life experience, beer, women etc.. but on leaving Uni with a large debt... then to start flight training with ALL its costs could leave someone in quite a precarious position. I would love to go to Uni if I wanted to pursue an alternative career but I believe that cementing myself in a job will allow me to gain just as much life experience, if not more, than if I went to Uni plus the added bonus of earning some cash.

prtsharbourfly.. that looks very good. Just wondering though .. Would European airlines not look down on a student who has completed his cpl, me/ir in the States due to the differences between JAA and FAA.. just something I have read on these forums?

Thanks
MB

[portsharbourflyer]

Mr Brightside,

Once you convert your FAA ratings to JAA you have JAA ratings, the airlines will not particulary care that you have converted your ratings. They will not particulary care that much what career you did previous to your training ( I found it hilarious that someone thought working as a supermarket manager would be agood thing to have on a CV). Supermarker managers play an important role in society, I would be the first to moan if I couldn't get buy Corn Flakes due to lack of managment of supplies. You will meet a range of people during flight training who will have done some far more impressive stuff in their previous careers than been a supermarket manager. Please I mean no disrespect to Supermarket managers; just wanted to highlight the futility of the previous statement. However it is as good as career as any to fund the flight training for someone leaving school with just A levels.

They will not care if you have a degree or not. Some life experience is useful gives you some depth to your conversation if you are stuck down route with someone for a while.

There is alot of rumour and nonsense printed on this forum; remember there are people on this thread giving you advice that haven't even completed training yet much less even found employment.

I was lucky I did go to univeristy but I didn't have to pay tuition fees, as a result I had no debt from University so I was able to start funding my PPL and distance learning once I started working. Also ppl training was only a 100 pounds an hour when I did my PPL, schools are now charging between 130 to 150 an hour for the PPL.

If I had to pay tuition fees I would have opted for an Electrician apprenticeship or tried to become a Licensed Avionics Engineer.

The fact you have a 1000 hours in the logbook will put you ahead of the 250 hours fresh qualifiers.

I myself did all JAA training, but a colleage I had met during a ground school open day went via the FAA route. Upon return to the UK once he completed the JAA conversion he found employment with an air taxi firm. Although I did gain full time flying employment in the end, my colleague was in a full time flying position a good two years before me.

You will need to apply for a visa before training in the US, so ideally you want a school to sponsor you for a J1 visa, this will allow you to work for one year in the US. Also avoid JAA approved training in the US, not because the training is substandard but because US based schools with JAA approvals always charge a premium for the JAA courses. If you are going to train in the US only train for FAA ratings. If you can't get a j1 visa then you could still get bush flying work in Africa on FAA ratings. Remember instructor jobs and bush flying in Africa will not pay that well, but if you can do these on FAA ratings then your next major expense will not occur until you come to convert to the JAA ratings.

[usedtofly]

It's all a good idea until the medical goes belly up :E

[AlphaMale]

(I found it hilarious that someone thought working as a supermarket manager would be agood thing to have on a CV)

charliegolf might tell you the £39k pa and an Audi A4 that Aldi will give you should give you a big advantage when it comes to paying for your training / supporting your family through training and if worst comes to worst having the 'spare' £20k for a SSTR.

As seen here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4053113#post4053113).

[portsharbourflyer]

Alphamale, fair point,

However I did acknowledge that there was nothing wrong with the aforementioned trade as a means of financing the flying; but it is just that a way of earning money to finance the training. Stating such a thing is good for the CV is clutching at straws.

When you work out what you need to do to get employed in this industry you really realise how much of the information on here is useful and how much is wide eyed optimism. That said Alphamale you do seem to be one of the better informed wannabes with a realistic outlook on things.

Hope all goes well for you.

[AlphaMale]

Fair point, I think what I said was clutching at straws a little but when I worked at Tesco I had the choice to work my way up the ladder and become a line manager and beyond. Managing stressful situations may be a benefit to you when you're on the flight deck, I have friends from many walks of life and some earn more money than me working on building sites but have no managing skills and can't deal with customers/people in general.

The local Tesco GM is on £120k+ pa a Porsche and huge benefits (I know that's the sharp end of the hierarchy but there is a future in it).

I agree on your comments on how much of the information on here is useful and how much is wide eyed optimism. And although I'm happy to listen to anybody's comments and advise there is only a dozen or so I will take seriously like Scroggs, WWW and yourself to name but a few.

I've taken your advise on many occasions and I'm still pondering over the FAA CPL/IR/CFI and then converting to JAA.

Thanks

[MrBrightside]

Portsharbourflyer ... What would be your guess as to the cost of obtaining all FAA licences compared to JAA? Not taking into account living costs, travel etc.

It is not a route I had considered before and I thank you for reccommending it. You have made it seem quite appealing. I would assume that you would need to obtain an American medical to partake in training in the states, is this correct?

Just out of interest AlphaMale, how long had you worked in Tesco before working up the ladder?

Cheers
MB

[portsharbourflyer]

Yes you will need the FAA medical.

Most people find if you consider all costs, ie: travel and accomodation and the price of the conversions there is little diference between doing a complete JAA modular training in Europe and converting FAA ratings.


The main advantage is you are dual rated and you can reach a point of the FAA system where you can start paid hour building quicker than you could under a pure JAA training system.

But certainly alot cheaper than an integrated course.

I would recommend you do search on FAA prices and schools offering J1 visa schemes; my knowledge of this may be a little out of date (2004) to be accurate.

[AlphaMale]

Just out of interest AlphaMale, how long had you worked in Tesco before working up the ladder?

I never pursued a career with Tesco so I never took them up on the offer. I had an interview every 6 months where they asses you and ask what you want from the company and what they'd like from you or can offer you.

My Manager asked if I'd be interested in a Manager role due to abilities and education level (I was in Tesco to support my BSc fees). They also asked if I wanted to take up the offer of a 'team leader' where I'd have a pay rise due to more responsibility but without the stress that could effect Uni work.

I think a team leader was on £8.25ph while a normal shop worker (like myself) would be on something like £5.75 (back in 2004).

I worked there for 4 years in all.

... Enough of this supermarket talk. Like you I am interested in gaining a fATPL the cheapest way without compromising on quality.

There are many opinions on this forum and it can get pretty confusing when one experienced airline pilot will tell you 'train in the UK for a job in the UK' and then somebody else like portsharbourflyer tells you to train in the US?

I personally like the idea of spending 12/18/24 months in the US working my way through the FAA licences and gaining employment as a CFI and earning enough to keep my head above water.

I'd be quite happy to fly BizJets for the rest of my aviation days and having both FAA and JAA licences would give me an advantage when applying to Operators that use both G and N reg AC.

I'll be looking tonight at as Many FAA PPL schools as possible tonight, as I'd like to see how much of a saving can be had over a JAA PPL.

Looking at OFT both seem around the same price :confused: I'm sure an FAA only school can offer the FAA PPL at a cheaper rate. :ok:

[portsharbourflyer]

Slight disclaimer; I am not telling you to train in the US, I am merely recommending another training route you may like to consider.

Pedantic detail aside. The important thing Alpha is that you are made aware of all the options that are available to you.

[AlphaMale]

Thanks portsharbourflyer, I'm quite aware of all routes to gaining all licences and like you said having both FAA and JAA licences isn't going to do me any harm.

What puts me off if the fact a thread will appear now and again stating that airlines prefer one-stop-shop pilots as opposed to many schools or what has been given as advice to me is the FAA route.

I'm just trying to weight up the pros and cons and there are many :-(

If I was able to get the time off work I'd go and get the FAA PPL (3 weeks) followed by a FAA IR (3-4 weeks) in one trip. But in reality I'm only going to get 6 weeks max and that will only be enough to get a PPL.

It might be worth asking my current employer if I can take 6 weeks off as paid and another 2 as unpaid :confused:

Come back to sunny South Wales and start my ATPL exams with BGS while building some hours, when completed I could always apply for a Visa for FAA MEP / CPL / CFI and a 12 month job at the end of it?

Thanks.

[portsharbourflyer]

Thats a perfectly workable plan Alpha. As you said realistically a well conducted PPL course is going to take 6 weeks. Although I did my PPL in the UK along side a full time job (very expensive way and time consuming way of doing it and when I did mine PPL tuition was only 100 an hour) anyone I met in the States doing a PPL rarely completed in four weeks.

[portsharbourflyer]

Flybe is the only airline I know that employs modular low houred pilots and asks for training to be completed at one FTO for low houred pilots. Flybe stated this at the BALPA EOC a few years back and this seems to be where this fact has stemed from.

With an all modular Europeam CPL/IR 250 hours your chances of getting an interview with Flybe: very slim believe about 800 applicants filled in the on line application form in the last round of recruitment. Flybes recruitment policy is a mystery to be truthful.

Chances of employment at an air taxi firm with a 1000 hours and some multi time built in the States with converted JAA licenses; very good.

[AlphaMale]

Chances of employment at an air taxi firm with a 1000 hours and some multi time built in the States with converted JAA licenses; very good.

I appreciate your advise. That would be my aim, I don't expect a Jet Op to knock my door with a job but I'd like to think with 1,000hrs and both FAA and JAA licences an air taxi firm would be interested in my CV or a TP/BizJet operator with a stroke of luck :ok:

Do you really think the FAA PPL in Florida would take 6 weeks though? I was hoping to take 5 weeks off work to complete my FAA PPL and in the remaining 7 / 10 /14 days of the trip do some hour building. They are advertising 21 day PPL's but I'm looking to budget for a 28 day PPL. :uhoh:

[Shiver me timbers!]

From what I've been reading over the past couple of months it's highly unlikely you will complete the PPL in 3 weeks (FAA or JAA). This isn't to say that it's impossible but it's risky business budgeting for only 4 weeks. The worse that could happen is you'd have to head home with only 20-30 hours :{

Think bad weather days, maintenance issues, instructor days-off, instructor / student illness (it's happened) etc.

I'm hoping to head out to Florida in October (JAA PPL) and will be budgeting for approx 6-8 weeks but still wonder whether this is enough to be safe.

Good luck.

[AlphaMale]

I'm hoping to head out to Florida in October (JAA PPL) and will be budgeting for approx 6-8 weeks

I know October falls into Hurricane season but isn't that a little drastic?

I was looking to get all my JAA exams done here at a local airfield and head out there in July/Aug for 5-6 weeks. If I decide on the FAA route then I guess revising via the OAT CBT might have confused me somewhat :\

If the PPL is going to take 8 weeks then it may be worth me leaving it for yet another year and starting a 'Pro' FAA course that some of the bigger schools run in Florida albeit at a cost of $45,000/$50,000 :bored: .... Sell up, let out my apartment and give up my current job.

[portsharbourflyer]

4 weeks is not impossible but it doesn't give you contingency for any delays; 6 to 8 weeks is a very realistic timeline for completion of a PPL course.