Making things better for the passenger - Respect

[Xeque]

A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.

The whole experience from beginning to end has become a nightmare.

Passengers passing through airports are routinely belittled, humiliated and degraded by airport staff who have little or no conception of customer relations or service.

Airline personnel, both on the ground and in the air, are rude, disillusioned and lacking in motivation having abandoned all pretence of enjoying their work whilst they are managed by people more interested in the bottom line of a spreadsheet than in creating and perpetuating a viable service industry with satisfied customers at the receiving end.

Increasing instances of operational delays and management foul-ups lead to rising levels of passenger frustration and fury before and during a flight.

Once in the air the environment for most passengers, trapped for many hours at a time in seats with minimum width and legroom, is not only extremely uncomfortable but downright unhealthy.

The latest we hear is that some airlines wish to sanction the use of mobile phones in flight. That, for many of us, will be the last straw.

Bigger aircraft, more flights, more passengers. The whole concept of air travel in its present form has finally spiraled to the bottom of the swamp and all the shiny new terminals and additional runways in the world will never resurrect it. The recent debacle at Heathrow’s new Terminal 5 is testament to that.

As passengers there is little we can do to help ourselves since there are few viable alternatives to air travel and the airlines and the airport operators know that and shamelessly exploit it.

Until now, that is. With a world financial crisis looming, a sharp reduction in the availability of credit and disposable income and the soaring cost of fuel, the airlines are going to be experiencing some very lean times and sooner than they might believe.

The industry as a whole needs a radical reappraisal – airlines, airport operators and aircraft designers alike. It needs people in all levels of management who have actually worked on the front line, facing fare–paying passengers – ordinary people who have every right to expect a better deal for their money.

Never will there be a better time for the industry to step back, regroup and re-organise ready to start again for the benefit of all when the financial scene has recovered.

It’s time, once again, for the passenger to be ‘always right’. And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.

[patrickal]

Funny I should see this now. Someone over in the "blue pages" posted a topic earlier about air travel actually getting slower; a combination of aircraft speeds dropping below mach.85 and congestion. I submitted this response;

When you think about it, commercial air travel has not gone far since the 1950's and the release of the Caravelle, 707 and Convair 880. Except for the limited availability of the Concorde (which is now gone), passengers have seen no increase in speed. Entertainment options have improved over the past few years with the advent of PTV's, but this just distracts you from the fact that the food service is now terrible in most cases, and the seat pitch has been brought to a point where anyone over 6 feet tall is at risk of loosing their knees if the person in front of them reclines their chair. It is amazing in that for the first 55 years of aviation, we went from laying on the wing at 50mph to sitting in comfort at mach .9, and in the second 55 years we dropped back to siiting in a smaller chair with lousy food at mach.85. Not exactly progress.

The real issue is that air travel has become a commodity, available to everyone, and as such, subject to extreme competition and the price wars that accompany such a market space. It has also grown at a rate that most governments and regulatory agencies cannot keep up with in the areas of infrastructure support and overall governence. I don't know if there is any fix out there, but I tend to doubt it. These kind of conditions tend to plod on with little financial incentive to fix them.

I think the future will bring carriers and leasing options which will focus on the high end traveler who can afford to pay for speed and luxury. The rest of us "air breathing freight" will continue to be just that, with little hope for improvement.

Patrick

[call100]

Maybe if Pax didn't expect to pay less for their flight than they pay the taxi to get to the airport, the situation would not be as it is now.
Your constant demand for lower fares reduces the incomes of those throughout aviation. No respect is given to aviation workers by anyone including passengers and the employers.
You as a passenger now get the respect you deserve. It's no different to everything else that has gone down hill over the last three decades.
If you want it to be as it was then the Low cost model must also go. The two do not go together.
Your blinkered view also misses the fact that aviation employees are also SLF from time to time. We suffer the same delays, the same cattle market conditions.
As far as security goes, we pass through many more security checks than any passenger. The experience is not enjoyed. It is however seen for what it is, a Government induced nightmare.
So if you want to be treated differently then open your wallet and fly like it used to be......First Class.

[nebpor]

Xeque (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=23040), note that you ALWAYS have a choice - if an airline upsets you by it's treatment of you then vote with your wallet and spend your money elsewhere .... they will soon learn.

The majors have not properly recovered from the market impact of the low-cost carriers on their market - things will settle themselves down eventually when the market finds its level.

I do not agree that the "entire industry" needs a shake-up - if it did, we would find airline share prices on the floor, unable to get credit for new fleets and empty planes as passengers deserted them. That we find none of these things indicate that in pure business terms (after all, these are profit-turning businesses we are talking about), everything is relatively ok.

[nebpor]

Maybe if Pax didn't expect to pay less for their flight than they pay the taxi to get to the airport, the situation would not be as it is now.

Amen - price does not equal value.

You also raise the other significant point about staff wages - I had been complaining about the company who BA outsourced Glasgow handling to, to be told by an ex-employee that the new company were paying a significant percentage less in wages, hence explaining the quality & dedication of the staff they were able to hire.

[groundhand]

Xeque,

Your world seems devoid of reality.

What other 'service' can you get at a substantially reduced price against what you would pay 5 or 10 yeras ago?

I've been customer facing. You should try it. If you think airline ground and flight staff are rude you should meet the paying passenger - they can take it another level.

I've managed aviation operations. I watched the level of applicants fall away as the salaries that could be offered diminished in line with the lowering of fares. Aviation was once an 'aspirational' industry. people WANTED to be involved etc. Now, I would not recommend working on the ground to any young person with intelligence, aptitude and (a positive)attititude.

Would you like to go back to the 1920's when very few people owned cars and 'rush hours' did not exsist? The masses did not travel other than for their week at the seaside and only those that 'had' could afford their own transport.

The world has moved on.
Live with it.

[GwynM]

I'm happy to be SLF - no insult intended, none taken. If I load in a quick, polite and efficient manner, and everyone else does, then the flight leaves on time and we have happy cabin crew, and therefore a happy load of SLF

[Xeque]

1960 to 1970 - Orient Line and P & O Company where a 10 pound ticket immigrant got a better deal than First Class passengers today and still complained
1970 to 1976 - Accommodation Manager in a major British holiday camp
1976 to 1982 - ensuring that expatriate oilmen (some of the hardest b******s I've ever come across) got the best possible deal in the deserts of Saudi Arabia.
Customer facing? Tell me about it.

[Final 3 Greens]

What other 'service' can you get at a substantially reduced price against what you would pay 5 or 10 yeras ago?

Many, e.g. buy a laptop computer which cost £2,000 for a slow model in 1998 and £350 for a lot more capable model in 2008.

However, it is the industry leading the plummet in service, not necessarily the passengers.

By driving prices down, the industry has created larger volumes of new travellers (e.g, locos), at the cost of creating vastly more pollution and reduced service levels across the sector.

In comparison to the laptops I buy, in 2008 business class fares are higher and buy a reduced service level compared to 1998 :\

So, physician, first treat thyself.

[Glamgirl]

Well, personally, I work my butt off to make sure that all my pax have a nice flight. I put in 100% every day I'm working. Sometimes I have to fake it to make it, but I'm a professional, so you'd never know.

However, I come across really horrid pax more or less every day. Rude doesn't even begin to explain how some people behave. I still remain professional and smiling.

I find it very insulting that this person starting this thread has taken it upon himself (I'm presuming he's a man) to tell the world that everyone involved in the airline industry are rude etc etc.

I'm inclined to tell him to stop flying, but then I guess I'd be rude:rolleyes:

Gg

[Tudor]

Xeque said

A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.

And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.


Well for those of you who may be terminally ill or have watched a loved one die of cancer or have seen your family ethnically cleansed and had to seek asylum in a hostile foreign land or have served in POW camps forced into backbreaking labour I hope you're feeling suitably humbled...your experiences pale into insignificance next to the horrific experience of taking a journey in an aeroplane today...words fail me.

[call100]

SLF is not used 'sneeringly' or is it used as an insult. This has been well established on PPRune in the past.:ugh:

[VAFFPAX]

Personally I have stopped using certain budget airlines where possible because as much as their c/c are nice and run through everything fairly nicely, the check-in staff have been rude and unhelpful at times.

I made a couple of sums based on my average luggage weight (tends to be around the 20-23 kilo range), the restrictions placed on me by said airlines, and I was, for the most part, better off flying with BA, IB, KL, LH or AF, and still save £30 on average.

So, why would I want to be dealt with rudely by STN check-in staff or queue for 15+ minutes at LTN for excess luggage payment, if I can take the bus to LHR or LGW, put my luggage on the scale, and have the appropriate airline not even bat an eyelid at the luggage weight that makes budget airline staff come out in a rash!

So Xeque, you have a conscious choice. Either you put up with being mistreated by an airline and their ground crew, or you vote with your feet and fly with another airline from another airport.

Convenience and price does not always equal value. I'd rather put up with the security nightmare, the taxi time and the missed slot at LHR (within reason) than the hassle of travelling to STN, arrive stressed and then still have to deal with more stress because my equipment is heavy and the airline wants to fleece me for more.

S.

[Pete_slf]

I'm a regular air commuter and admit that I'm SLF. I don't have a problem with this. I pay the lowest fare I can and accept that the whole experience is price-driven. I'm polite to all the airport & airline staff, and all the ones I've spoken with have been very helpful & pleasant.

The only gripe I've got is with the ridiculous security theatre that we all have to go through and different interpretations of what is and isn't allowed. :ugh:

[radeng]

So far this year, I've done 24 flights in BA Club Europe. (Being diabetic, I need a proper meal, not just a sandwich) The BA ground staff and CC have been unfailingly friendly, cheery and helpful - some of the agents not so good. My experience over several years is that even when BA CC have an 'off' day, they are still head and shoulders above many others. A LH flight saw the trays almost thrown out, drinks in business class only available if you asked for them, and then the CC dived into the galley, drew the curtain, ignored call buttons, and only came out when the wheels went down for landing.

If you want grumpy CC, try almost any of the American airlines. That's not really, surprising, when you consider the way they have been treated in terms of pay and pensions, while the upper management levels who are really responsible for that happening keep their bonuses, share options, pensions and high pay....

[Beer_n_Tabs]

Xeque,
Me old china, sonny me lad.
The industry isnt perfect, non are.
It just needs the odd tweak here and there. I tend to move in cattle class most of the time, and the way I see it. If I get a cheapy GBP0.01 flight then there aint gonna be many bells or whistles attached. In my experience flying although tedious is very rarely serviced by rude staff.

As for being called SLF, for the love of god man relax will you. The are just terms of endearment ..... (they had better be or i'll smash all your faces in ;) lol )

Glorified Bus Driver
Trolly Dolly / Tart with the Cart
Ramp Tramp
W*nker (dunno why I included that, must be due to the fact I get called it a lot)
Theres a fair old list.

Non of them mean offence, so come down from your soap box matey, as with many customer service related industries you tend to have other choices.

Note: Did Glamgirl really admit to 'faking it' on here? Ohhhhhh hang on, she meant being polite to pax :p

[SnoggingTarmac]

Poor Xeque - either you've had very bad luck or there's something about you that excites an extreme reaction in the airline staff you meet.

I am, at best, an infrequent flyer, but have never encountered a hint of the problems you report. I've had some discrete eye-rolling from CC at the nonsense I was trying to cram into the overhead bin, but I flippin well deserved it and viewed it as fair (non-verbal) comment.



P.S. In this context, I'm SLF and proud of it. In RealLife, I'm also a geek, a propellor-head, a weirdo, an anorak and a great big girlie swot (if my friends are to be believed). That you view the term "SLF" as an insult, is a reasonable pointer to your mindset.

[PAXboy]

Xeque has already been blasted by almost every post, so I will refrain from adding to the ordure (too much!).

Those that have never travelled by air (either children or those previously unable for all the usual reasons) probably think that being able to get in a tube and go at 500mph whilst having a drink and watching a movie is pretty cool. Those that have seen a more pleasant version of the journey think otherwise.

For those that witness the change, it is almost always unpleasant but those that come after will accept it as being normal. The new normal. Life in the 21st Century is not improving a great deal and it would be fascinating to be able to look at at the century when it is done and see how it all panned out.

Looking at the 20th? I can see that I did not have to go to war and die in the mud like my (putative) great uncle, or in Beaus and Mossies like my father and survive 104 Ops - but have his parent's killed by a V2.

I can use my mobile phone to send a personal 'telegram' to my sister in South Africa and the round trip message can be achieved in under two minutes. The examples are numerous - some things get better and others decline. Do I like modern air travel? Not so much as I did but then, I am middle aged and that colours one's view on many things. ;) But I like where the air travel can get me.

SLF? I think it's a witty and an accurate description.

Sorry Xeque, I agree with you but the changes will cost too much money and the human race does not like to spend money, only make it.

[Ixixly]

Well, as someone who works in the Hospitality Industry for a number of years now and is moving into Aviation as a Pilot i can honestly say that i agree with the others in terms of it being cost driven.

So often people are coming into restaurants i work at and expecting 5 star service at 3 star prices. They expect every meal to be custom tailored exactly how they want it, god forbid they actually just order off the menu.... They have no consideration for the fact that they are paying less and therefore there is less able to be provided and then choose to further stretch those limited resources by being so damned picky!!!

I can so rarely go around a single table of even 3 people without one of them deciding they don't like certain ingredients that are put into a particular meal and expect them to be replaced by their particular favourites. I mean sure it can be done, but it means that the kitchen who might have 3 orders for a particular meal that can be cooked together and sent out faster now have 3 orders for 3 slightly different meals that have to be cooked seperately which slows the entire process down!!

Unfortunately its a mentality that seems to be spreading to just about every industry. Sure its fine in some industries, like construction etc... but in Service driven industries it can be an extreme hassle and is something people seem to be lacking the simple common sense to work out. God knows i want to help out my customers as much as possible, theres no bigger kudos than customers walking out after a good meal thanking you and promising to see you again soon, but some just come in with completely unrealisitic expectations and boy can it get you down sometimes.

Its the funniest thing about 'Common Sense'... it AIN'T!!

[G-TTIC]

A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.

I really feel for you. :mad:

[spiney]

Respect? My old Dad once told me that respect had to be earned, never expected and if you have to buy it then it probably wasn't worth having...

Look up 'respect' in the Dictionary and you'll find words like, admire, esteem, value and appreciate... these are concepts which are rooted in the passage of time - none of which have anything to do with the provision of a service ie a flight from A to B, in complete safety, on time or within a resonable time-frame, preferably with your bags, and in a degree of comfort commensurate with what the customer has paid. It's a contract in a competitive market and like anything else in a market, good deals and bad deals are inherent in the system.

Maybe Xeque means getting the service for which you have paid? In over 20 years of regularly flying as pax on hundreds of flights I have to say I can barely remember more than a handful - usually the very bad, less often the very good... on none of them did I endure the awful lifetime experiences apparently born so stoically by Xeque... and the other 95%+ of those flights fall into the dull, boring, routine category which is precisely the way I like them and is by far the best accolade any airline could want.

[radeng]

Spiney,

I too have been flying regularly for over 20 years - nearly 30, actually. I too can count the really bad flights - America West for two of them, American Airlines for three more, United Express for losing bags 12 times in 13 flights, and so on. And BA, for flights where the problems were ground staff, the apologies profuse, and the monetary compensation appearing rapidly. British Caledonian, whose bubble of complacency and self satisfaction was impossible to puncture after probably the worst transatlantic flight of my career. If ever there was an airline I was happy to see go under, BCal was the one......the other was Empire Air in New York state. LH, I found uniformally poor in their attitude to customer service.

And then the Norwegian crew on a SAS flight to Copenhagen were memorable for their assumption:

'Please may I have a Gamel Dansk?'

After a long period away

'We are sorry, we do not have any Gamel Dansk. Anyway, Englishmen do not drink Gamel Dansk!'

[call100]

There seems to be one common denominator in all your bad flights.....:ugh:

[DeltaIndiaSierraPapa]

Respect....

Now THAT is a funny concept. I am 37 years old. I am an American living in the UK. I can remember a time when flying WAS still a special occasion. Meals and drinks on board were free, baggage allowances were much more generous than they are now, cabin crew wore the "stewardess" badge with honor, and people were generally much more respectful.

Airfares were also much higher per capita.

Unfortunately, we now live in a pay as you go generation. The basic ticket price is cheap. Often the taxi fare to the airport is higher. You wanna take a bag? Pay for it. You wanna drink on bord? Something to eat? Pay for it. The list goes on and on. This is what todays customer wants. Unfortunately, we also now live in a society that doesnt even allow us to discipline our kids without the fear of prosecution. People in general have less manners and respect than 20 years ago.

Nobody has any sense of self accountability anymore. Late to the airport? Well berate the poor guy or gal behind the check in counter. The louser you scream the better chance you have to get on. If he or she kicks off back at you? well sue the airline for victimisation! Kick off if you have 25 kgs of bags! Kick off if you didnt read the conditions on your ticket. Kick off if you cant follow simple instructions at Security!

Kick off! It's OK. We are just airport workers here to be abused by you!



Respect works bothways mate!

[parabellum]

If you think the fares are bad now then just wait a while. Most of the big, financially secure airlines will have long forward bought fuel contracts still running, fuel bought when crude was $60.00 for example. Smaller companies are usually not so lucky as they buy less bulk and can't afford the longer contracts so they are already paying more for their fuel and will be the first to be hit by the $119.00 per barrel, fares are likely to go up on the LCCs before the major carriers. Eventually the major carriers will reach the end of their forward bought contracts, yes they will negotiate new ones but you can still expect some seriously big fare increases.:sad:

[ford cortina]

Respect to the passengers...
Okay I will go for that, however lets have some back.

Pax that are not only Rude but offensive in the extreme to Cabin Crew is more common than you think.
How many take the time to watch the Safety Breifing, well you know it off by heart, but it does show a little respect ,as well as being important.

Please and Thankyou are almost never heard.

Obey the rules, No smoking, don't turn on your phone/PC etc on during Take off and Landing.

Don't question the flight crews decisions, they are highly trained. Case in point, last year (I think, its on pprune) a BA crew did a go around at MAN, a lady pax rang the police during said go around and accused the pilots of being drunk! Yes the police did get involved.

I know that you, the general public knows far more about flying an aircraft than I do, I only studyied for several years, took many exams and now fly a Boeing 737. Where you just get to fly once a year, watch Air Crash Investigation and read the Daily Mail. When you start to show a bit of respect for us crew, then maybe you will get some back in return.

[radeng]

ford cortina.

I find that simple manners like saying 'hello' to the CC and 'how are you?' on boarding - plus listenening to the safety briefing, even though I know it by heart - seems to work wonders on the way they treat you in return. Not to listen is to the briefing is at best impolite. I always thank the cabin crew on leaving, usually shake hands, and either thank the flight crew or if the cockpit door is still shut, request the CC to do so on my behalf. When I fly with CC that recognise me because I've flown with them before, I really seem to get the red carpet treatment, although BA CC are, I find very good anyway. But maybe it's because I'm 61 and thus had a somewhat old fashioned upbringing by today's standards. When a child, on arriving at a railway terminal station, you thanked the driver - especially if it was murky foggy day with poor visibility. That also often got you an invite onto the footplate - proof that good manners had their own reward.

The lack of manners is another one of the less desirable results of modern society: possibly too much attention to the 'save time, make a buck approach'.

[ford cortina]

radeng, thankyou very much, you are too kind.

[parabellum]

Unfortunately there is a mind-set in some people that once they have bought their ticket they have bought you too. This strange attitude knows no boundries when it comes to the financial status of the pax but is almost always found in that rather nasty, jumped up bunch of people who were not taught good manners, don't aspire to them, always have plenty to say for themselves and lose it when it comes to behaving like a Lady or a Gentleman, as my father would have said, "They lack breeding"!

[GANNET FAN]

Radeng, slight thread creep, funny you should mention thanking the train driver at the terminus. I can remember my old headmaster saying that at the end of his journey, he always went to the drivers cab (steam train!) thanked him and gave him his newspaper!

[nebpor]

I find that simple manners like saying 'hello' to the CC and 'how are you?' on boarding - plus listenening to the safety briefing, even though I know it by heart - seems to work wonders on the way they treat you in return. Not to listen is to the briefing is at best impolite. I always thank the cabin crew on leaving


If it's any consolation, at 37 years of age I do exactly the same - good manners gets good service, it's always my number one rule - I look pleased to see the cabin crew on my weekly BA CityFlyer flights, and they in turn look pleased to serve me - it's nice, and I wish everyone was the same :ok:

[Tarq57]

A friend of mine once said, "you get what you give." A bit of what should be normal human dealing (eg: courtesy, humour, etc) generally results in the same returned. I don't actually recall ever having an airline employee being rude or insulting. Rarely, some have been offhand, or impatient, or a bit "formal".
What amazes me is that with the way the airlines often treat their staff, rude or offhand behaviour isn't the norm rather than the exception.
I don't assume for a second that it's particularly easy doing the job they do, but most of them do it cheerfully. Even when they're tired, which is probably fairly often.
Air travel has definitely become a bit less pleasant over the years, particularly in regard to cramped conditions. Personally I'd rather a bit more was spent on a well designed seat than on inflight entertainment, for example, but according to the airline PR folk, cheap tickets and multi channel entertainment etc is what the customer wants. If I want a decent seat, then maybe I'll save for it. Worth doing on a longer flight.
But to say it's one of the most awful experiences you can go through makes me think you've had a fairly sheltered life, you poor thing.

[PAXboy]

More drift of location but not of subject matter
Gosh - Thanking the engine driver!!!! Yes, I remember that and the Conductor too if you could.

Now, if the platform exit takes me past the cab, I will often raise my hand in thanks as I go by. Bus drivers too. I don't often take them but, a couple of weeks ago, having dropped the car for service, I took a bus into my town centre and he dealt so well with a problem for one of his regulars. It was lovely to see him greet each OAP as they got on.

Breeding? A declining industry.

[VAFFPAX]

radeng, it's not just limited to you. There are plenty of us 'young uns' who have also been instilled with some of the common courtesy. It makes sense. I know what you mean about getting the red carpet treatment for being courteous.

Sadly I have to admit that occasionally I fall asleep even before the safety briefing starts, and no-one bothers to wake me up. The other day I was dead to the world the minute I strapped in and only woke up as the a/c accelerated down the runway. It's not meant to be offensive. If anything, I feel safe with the crew and their competence.

:rolleyes:

S.

[Donkey497]

Just to echo the theme of some of the previous posts, it's nice to be nice.

The old saying "Do unto others that which you would have them do unto you" is well worth adhering to as it works both ways.

On a recent IAH-EWR flight I witnessed the spectacle of an obnoxious passenger on his cellphone five minutes after the third announcement from the cockpit to turn them off as it was interfering with comms & after the cabin crew pacing the aisle reminding everyone. The stewardess saw him on the phone & asked him three times to turn it off otherwise the flight could not proceed. He was verbally abusive and shouted that he hadn't heard any announcements the stewardess was "carefully" polite to him, but he called her supervisor and accused her of being verbally abusive to him and tried to drop her in it big time.

Fortunately, all had been seen by the supervisor & she wasn't hauled over the coals. This tiny flight attendant was particularly nice & polite to him all flight, and just by being nice and polite she made the big hulking guy look two foot tall by the time we landed at EWR.

Gaun Yersel Doll :ok::ok::ok:

[The Real Slim Shady]

On an average week I will carry around 3500 passengers.

On average I get perhaps 1 person every 2 weeks who is obnoxious, rude or offensive to the cabin crew: sometimes its just a group of kids, or guys, who are out for a good time and are loud rather than rude.

So 1 in 7000 is a really small percentage; however, because they stand out they generate more interest than the remainder who get on, enjoy the flight, and get off with a mutual "thank you".

The nasty passenger doesn't just make it unpleasant for the crew though; it has a subsidiary effect on their fellow travellers which is often overlooked.

[Llademos]

Xeque,

Your post has probably got the most generalisations per column inch than any I've seen to date. I've just booked a flight to Ireland, for two - £4.04 return, including charges and taxes, £4 of which is the debit card payment fee. This is for a journey of 206 miles each way, which works out at less than half a penny a mile each - 1% of the cost of driving.

I make sure that I understand what is being offered, and act accordingly. When I travel on a 'full service' airline, I expect some courtesy - and, because I refuse to get irritated by the experience and turn up a little early - I cannot remember a time when I was treated anywhere close to what you have described, and I travel more than most (though less than some on this forum).

For my four quid flight, I shall turn up, get on and shut up. Thanks to the wonders of online check in the first airline person I expect to have to interact with will be at the boarding gate, the first airport person will be security (and, as it's not the BAA I won't be biting my lip during that experience!). I don't want to be fed (the journey length is less than my one way commute) so it suits me fine.

As to your objection to being called SLF ... talk about a thin skin!

[Xeque]

You're saying that you have booked 2 of you to Ireland for £0.04p in total?? Is there a fuel surcharge involved here or are the two of you expected to flap your arms a lot?

People: I've been given a lot of stick for what I said in this particular thread.

Basically my beef is not particularly what people say and do to me but with what I hear being said and done to others.

The worst offenders are security staff. I realise it's a sh1tty job and no-one other than someone with the hide of a buffalo would take it on. But having taken the job these people should bear in mind who is paying their salaries. It's us - the passengers because if there were no passengers there would be no air transport industry and if there was no air transport industry then 99% of you would be back on the dole lines.

I have seen (Stansted) an elderly lady reduced to tears by the uncaring bunch of bums who were working the X-ray machines that morning. It was sheer bullying.

I have seen (again Stansted) a Spanish passenger with virtually no English totally rubbished by a female security operative because he had his toilet bag with him with half used bottles of shampoo, after shave and deodorant. She even took the triple blade from his razor.

I came through Heathrow (T3) last February where a dayglow jacket 'lurch' leaned against a barrier bellowing 'git yer shoes orf 'ere'. Charming.

There was an absolutely amazing story a month or so ago when another foreign passenger had 3 jars of Colemans mustard confiscated. Like something out of an old Goon Show - 'exploding mustard' Jeez!!

I flew on 'Ruinair' to Newquay around Christmas last year. 3 cabin crew - a boy with a strange hair style, one girl who looked frightened to death and the senior girl who was 5 foot nothing in her socks. The senior girl ran the safety briefing. I know that lots of passengers who have heard the safety briefing dozens of time before tend to let it pass by but this F/A zeroed in on one unfortunate passenger who happened to be looking out the window and (not once but 3 times) shouted 'Excuse me! I'm talking here!' Again - charming.

I know passengers can be very, very aggressive and rude. I've witnessed it many times but you have to ask yourself if the environment the airports greet us with and the airlines provide during the flight isn't a major contributing factor here.

Maybe I am a little thin-skinned Llademos but it's me (and others like me) who are paying. It might be a reduced fare but that's what they asked me to pay so I paid it. What's wrong with that?

And Yes. I come from an age where to travel was a pleasure. The trouble now is that there are a couple of generations who know no better and cannot compare. Thank God for old age!!

[6chimes]

These days our lives are subjected to mindless directives from faceless beurocrats (forgive the spelling) in 'elf n safety, telephone drones asking us to press zillions of options to get to speak to the person you need when a simple human operator could put you straight through. What I am saying is that most of our lives seem to be influenced negatively on a massive scale and we (crew/SLF etc.) have to put up with it. No longer is a happy customer the primary objective that ensures a company will survive and prosper, we are all now servants to our banks, governments and every other large organisition that we need to live our lives as we wish. So when we do actually meet a person involved in customer service we tend to vent our entire frustration with the 'system' towards them. Society is generally considered to be an unfriendly, uncaring and violent place these days and most of us are unhappy with the 'break down' of society. Hence customers are already prepared to do battle over any dissatisfaction before it has already happened.

Off my soap box now :D

Smile, we are all people just trying to get on with life, regardless of being SLF or the employee.

6

[Final 3 Greens]

6Chimes

Well said. :ok:

[Llademos]

Xeque

Yes ... £0.04 total, all charges included, for two people UK-Ireland, that's a penny each, per flight. £4 for paying this with a debit card. Total £4.04. :)

Ll

[Beer_n_Tabs]

Had the same myself recently England - to - Scotland
£3.01 including tax.
Llademos...even cheaper than yours so :p

Now when you do have bags etc I can understand how annoying it can be to have the extra hidden charges, but on the flip side...an away day or an overnight trip where I can put a change of clothes in hand bagage means I dont have to pay EXTRA.

Rough with the smooth, thats the way I see it.

[Llademos]

B n T

Who needs extra bags when a Barbour will carry a week's worth of clothes in the back 'pheasant' pocket? :ok:

Anyway, my £4.04 was for two people - that's £2.02 each. :p

[Beer_n_Tabs]

I'm a grown up (allegedly).... I know when I am beaten :( :ok:

[radeng]

There's one point about having respect for the CC and flight crew - without them I couldn't do my job, which of necessity involves lots of travelling. So maybe eventually I pay their wages (or my employer does!) but in the same way, they pay mine. So they're entitled to respect for that, if nothing else.

[WHBM]

When you think about it, commercial air travel has not gone far since the 1950's and the release of the Caravelle, 707 and Convair 880.
Actually we have, very substantially. You just have to compare the accident rates of those very types you quote with the situation nowadays. For example in just two years, 1973-4, Pan Am alone lost 5 of their Boeing 707s in major fatal accidents, a rate we would find unbelievable nowadays. Other carriers were comparable. The improvement has not been achieved without a huge amount of effort by all concerned.

[radeng]

WHBM,

we seem to have some thread drift....however, those major accidents were caused by what? Has this vast improvement in safety been caused by mechanical or technological improvements, or improvements in crew training and CRM? If you consider the growth in air travel since those days, the improvement is even more remarkable in terms of incidents per passenger mile. The most dangerous part of flying is the motorway to and from the airport!

[ZFT]

I'm NOT being flippant, but all of the above post plus much, much more.