Club Reps and Drunken Pax

[TightSlot]

I've just been watching a TV show called "Club Reps" - silly documentary on Club 18-30 kids on vacation. No wonder English tourists are not always welcome!

This week, a party of 4 (older), who had been drinking themselves senseless throughout a fortnight checked in for their JMC night RHO-MAN. We've just watched them at RHO airport getting so pissed they can't bend over, drinking neat bacardi from a water bottle, losing their tickets because their minds are mush etc. etc. One of them has prematurely discharged himself from hospital with an ongoing DVT problem, and he is later seen being highly aggressive to a Greek immigration officer.

At check -in, they are asked "Have you been drinking?" which they all deny. The smell of booze must have been overpowering at the check-in desk, and two of them at least were slurring heavily. Based on this rigorous and stringent examination of their fitness to fly, they are waved on their merry way to the aircraft.

I think that as Crew we are entitled to just a touch more support from ground staff than was demonstrated here. My view is that they should never have been accepted for travel in that state: No wonder we have problems in flight, when pax screening is as lax as this!

You may disagree...

[redbug]

Couldn't agree more, tightslot.

They shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near an aeroplane.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: redbug ]</p>

[Flapskew]

Agree. It is always the crew who have to sort it out. The Cabin Crew have my greatest respect when dealing with these folks.

Maybe in this case they took to the bottle as they were afraid of flying. It was jmc after all - "Just Might Crash" - sorry, could'nt resist :) :)

So you refuse to fly them. The Brit Consulate now has the problem of getting them back to the UK - difficult other than by air from RHO.

Watch out for the poor charter pilot who is told by the agent that he has 2 LMCs for you. 10 mins before your slot expires the agent tells you that the 2 LMCs had been refused carriage by other airlines and that their bags are in the forward hold, or was it the aft hold, he can't remember. Next likely slot in two hours time your ops say. Ohh Bu@@er.

Cheers a bunch from the ground staff support.

[cabin secure]

Am unsure of your rules in the northern hemisphere but down under cabin crew have the right to refuse passage. Has to be worded correctly to avoid lawsuits. " My apologies sir/madam but you are unfit to travel at this time." Ultimately cabin crew are the ones who deal with these people. They are not capable of evacuating themselves in an emergency they don't fly. Simple!

[HugMonster]

Fab, in the UK it is an offence under the ANO for anyone to be drunk on board an aircraft.

If these four were as bad as is quoted (and it wouldn't surprise me one bit) the check-in staff should have refused to check them in. That having been missed, the security staff should not have allowed them through, gate staff should have not have allowed them into a dangerous are of the airport, and the cabin crew should have refused them.

Damn the slots. Get their bags off.

They can fly when they're sober enough. And all tour operators should be made aware that their customers will be left behind if they're not fit to travel.

Not only would they be unable to evacuate themselves in the event of an emergency, they would also hinder sober passengers.

Furthermore, they are far more likely to be offensive and violent during the flight.

They will not find a seat on any aircraft of mine.

[MaximumPete]

It is a very sad fact that the vast majority of UK cbin crew employed by chater airlines have been verbally or physically abused at some stage in their careers.

A very sad state of affairs!!

MP <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Magplug]

Flapskew.... Yes I have been that skipper.

I asked the agent to get the bags off and suggested that the passengers might be more comfortable back in HIS departure lounge whilst we wait for the next slot in two hours!

Guess what... Two minutes later No LMC pax... Bags off and we are on our way. Funny thing human nature!

[OzPax1]

I agree with this. As a ex Pax Service Agent I always made sure that if a drunk/pissed passenger made it to the gate, that the Airline Rep was aware of and saw the passenger. Usally my opinion was respected and the senior cabin crew member and captin of the flight were informed. THEY then (via me and REP)refused the passenger to board. You all know the story from then on, espcailly with drunk pax!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

I agree that everybody has to work together, but when pax check-in they aren't always drunk/pissed. They may be a bit merry, and usally a note was/is made in 'puter system for the gate to see as a heads up. Problem is pax then head to the bar after they get through security. Bars past Security should be banned, they are the bane of Pax Services staff!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> If you are going to find your late boarding pax 9/10 that is were you'll find em! :) <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

*rant off*

[Anti-ice]

A scene probably familiar to many I'm sure,and unfortunately getting worse .

You have your little greek/spanish/ ground girl board your plane 5 mins before engine start, and you are told there are a group of guys who "maybe a leetle beet drunk" .

Its 5'oclock in the morning , you have 200 delayed tired pax and an A/C desperately needed back in the UK.(to keep your airline in business). .The seconds are ticking by,and you envisage a potentially violent scenario inflight.. . . .You KNOW the ground girl will say they have NOWHERE to put these guys if you offload them(and you will have explaining to do back at base):&gt;&gt;. . . .You also care v much about your airline,passengers and other crew members:&gt;&gt;

If you let these guys onboard you know its their word you will have to take that they will behave:&gt;&gt; But what if they DON'T??

Reluctantly, (to avoid further delay for the good of the airline)you let them on - they try and pretend to be sober/well behaved -but what about the next 4 hours at altitude when their drinks really start kicking in ??. . . . . .

You're either at the mercy of the onboard thugs/Captain/company/passengers or a combination of all - I used to fly charter 86-93 ,and maybe this seems familiar to some,I hope in these days of CRM,you get the full backing of the Flight crew and your company to assist in your difficult decision -do you dare delay the A/C further ?

As JMC were involved in this - have they introduced new onboard procedures to protect the cabin crew in certain situations with their dire reduced crew complements ? ? I truly hope so.

[BEagle]

My sympathies to my commercial chums who have to fly such dreadful oiks around the sky. Whilst some failed wheelclamper might liberate them of their toe nail clippers at security, no-one seems to have the moral courage to say "Get off. Walk or go by sea - you are b£oody NOT coming on this aircraft". Because people like Watchdog would have been harping on about 'passenger abuse' or somesuch, the airline would have been moaning about schedule disruptions - hence it's easier to think "$od 'em. They'll soon be comatose in the back and it's only 3 hours home - then they're some other bug.gers worry!"

Until the behaviour of these lower order morons is controlled and they are refused boarding unless they conform to minimum standards of behaviour and deportment on the outbound flight, there will always be this problem.

Back in the '70s we used to travel on BCal to Espana on package holidays. All quite civilised, no yobs in football shirts or their equally unpleasant female colleagues. Because in those days the plebs knew their place......

I could never lower myself to flying shell-suited lagerlouts from Lootnairpawt to Oybeefa - I'd sooner give up flying altogether!

[Irishboy]

Shouldn't the sale of alcohol on board be banned then? Not fair putting all the blame on the airport bars.

[Lucifer]

Ban alcohol in airports both airside and landside fullstop - it is not the place to be selling alcohol to drink. Alcohol in flight or sealed duty free does have its place, but an airport is a place to fly from, and pubs in airports simply allow people to 'calm their nerves' with drink. Safety, not commercial concerns should be number one.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Lucifer ]</p>

[fantom]

ah beagle...would that I could afford not to have to fly them.wolf at the door etc etc.. .one of the few remaining pleasures of the job is leaving types like these. bu##er the slot.there is always another..funny how the two hours delay often evaporates.great sport it is and I would not miss it for the world! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[TightSlot]

My (charter) company has a policy of not accepting LMC's, since 9/11 - Is this not the same for all other UK operators? If not, shouldn't it be?

[Mister Slot]

Lucifer - I have to disagree. Your solution treats the symptoms and not the cause. Why should the VAST majority of passengers who are well behaved and enjoy the odd tipple be penalised by this small group of pond life.

fantom is absolutely correct - leave the b*st*rds behind. Adopt zero tollerance and the word will soon get round.

[PaperTiger]

A worldwide problem although British charters do seem to be affected most. No question about denying boarding to any drunks, but the problem is unless you supervise the boarding yourself, more often than not you won't be told about them. This is the 'pass the buck' solution employed by a disappointing number of ground staff/CSRs. If they pull the cretins out of line then they have to deal with the fallout. Much easier to shove them down the jetway and let somebody else worry about it.

We had some notorious North-South Friday evening roughneck flights where this would often happen. I made it a point to be in the gate during boarding, or at least send the No. 1 down there. . .What was absolutely infuriating was the lack of support from local LEOs, who wanted to be shot of the clowns too. Local pokey already full I suppose.

Of course later on I simply avoided bidding them, so I guess I'm just as guilty of ducking it <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> .

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: PaperTiger ]</p>

[Check 6]

I tend to agree with Lucifer, ban alcohol sales in airports, Period!

I suspect that many of the low-lifes who cause the problems are alcoholics. "Getting the word out" will do nothing to deter an alcoholic. Removing alcoholic beverages from the airport will go a very long ways to prevent air rage, and LMC. Banning alcohol sales in-flight would go a long ways in preventing problems also.

For the nervous SLF, they can get an appropriate prescription from a physician to handle that. I suspect many alcoholics use their so-called nervousness as an excuse to get "wasted" before/during a flight.

In reality, this would be difficult to put in place, because there is such high profit in alcohol sales, including in-flight sales.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

If the agent indicates that there "may be a problem" with certain pax then there is no problem.They aint flying.Take the decision squarely on the chin.Tell the agent to tell the oiks that the Captain refuses them carriage and absolve them of any responsibility.I once asked an agent how many pax they had processed since the last time she went to the captain with "leetle problem".The fact that this was a 1 in 10000 was enough for me.The problem as stated is that we often just don't hear about these morons untill too late.. .Unfortunately these are increasingly the only pax we as pilots come into contact with.We can easily forget that the vast majority of the punters are decent folks and will accept a delay if you give them a civil and truthful explanation.. .Sorry Beagle but with that level of pomposity perhaps the Grey Funnel Line is the best place for you!

[BEagle]

HS's L - sadly, you're right! Nothing at all glamorous in the airline industry any more (apart from Concorde, of course!); not many 'total aviation people', too many bean counters, wretched low-life types 'larging it up' in the back of holiday charter airliners.....

Tales of what it was once like when even Manchesterr to Paris flights overnighted with a guaranteed aircrew/cabin crew party several times a week in Parisienne hotels - or so an ex-BEA Trident #1 told me - reminds me of what is now missing: fun and aviation before the last penny to shareholders or to pay the ludicrous inflated retainer to Admiral Lord Field Marshall for life of Big Airways.....

Plus we can always get shot of people we don't like in the grey funnel line.....not long ago a couple of squaddies caused trouble somewhere, so the local Plod chucked them into jail. Their RSM said "No problem - go without them. Their punishment will be to find their own way home - and to pay for it!!". That was from Western Canada to the UK........ Nice one!!

[sky9]

Surely the problem starts with a Tour Operator whose "sell" is "get pi$$ed; get laid". . .The sooner the airline's managers say "not on our aircraft" it will continue. . .Once again the problem is transferred to the operating crew on a Friday night when the Management are tucked up in bed.. .Possibly the answer is a quick mobile call to the duty manager every time it happens.

[HugMonster]

Spot on, sky9.

As long as "Costa del Sex" holidays are sold on that basis to the lads and ladettes, they will get p!ssed up and party every moment that's available to them.

If the airlines emphasise to the Tour Operators that carriage of their oiks is dependent upon them being sober and respectable, and if they are loaded with Bacardi, p!ssed and objectionable at the airport they'll get left behind, perhaps some notice will be taken.

Perhaps any costs incurred by the airlines ought to be passed on to the Tour Operator rather than the individual, leaving the TO's to try to recoup their losses. That would get their attention pretty quickly!

For TightSlot's company, this seems to me (not accepting any LMC's) a daft policy.

The LMC is not the problem. How you deal with it might be. If you're trying to rejig paperwork, reset bugs, the FMC etc. etc. whilst taxying to keep to a slot, then the LMC is not the problem - YOU are. (Sorry, TS, not addressing this personally at you). The LMC should have been refused, or accepted and the slot allowed to go. Safety first, every time. That includes offloading drunk pax, taking whatever time it takes to get yourself sorted out before launching off, etc. etc.

To refuse any LMC is painting your crews into a corner. So all these pax were booked in, and appear on the loadsheet - can you accept an LMC to offload two plus their bags? No. You have to carry them. What nonsense.

[Beausoleil]

Some time back I was strapped next to a drunk on a flight from Houston to London, fairly drunk (staggering) when he boarded, completely unconscious and incontinent on arrival ~11 hours later. The change was thanks to his being served beers 2 at a time the whole way.

I remember the cabin crew member taking his pulse when she couldn't rouse him to put his seat belt on - she never really did get it fastened securely.

"We can well understand the annoyance and inconvenience caused to you. While it may have seemed that firmer action by our cabin staff could have alleviated the problem, there is always the danger of creating greater unpleasantness if request for drinks are refused. Intervention can sometimes inflame the situation."

BA Customer Relations, 3/4/1998. Have only flown with them when there was absolutely no other alternative since that day.

So please don't complain if passengers are drunk on your aeroplanes, emember that getting them as drunk as possible is a policy adopted by airlines to avoid greater unpleasantness.

Back to lurking now - I've learnt a lot of interesting things here.