Say NO to 457 visas.

[Quietachiever]

In the mid 90's All Nippon attempted to base a group of foreigners (from lands of the usual suspects) in Australia.
A group of overseas pilots who had been blacklisted by Ansett/ TAA lobbied politicians and the practice was put to the sword. The base was closed.
The practice has re emerged since airline management from various carriers lobbied the Howard Govt to solve a pilot shortfall.
If you feel you have been disadvantaged by the selection process of an Australian carrier and they have subsequently employed a foreigner you should do the same.
Write to the Prime Minister, your local member or Senator. Do the same with the Opposition Ministers too!
You will be surprised that some of them will listen and maybe act on your behalf.
Talk to your pilot council, AIPA, VIPA etc and stop this practice.
You maybe JUST A PILOT,but use your rights as an Aussie to protect jobs that are rightfully yours!

[fourgolds]

Dear QT , it must be so nice being born in Australia. Dada is going to get some more baby food for your silver spoon.

[Muttley Crew]

QA I was recently thinking that this issue has gone somewhat quiet lately. As with unpopular government action, this is what airline management hope for; that those with objections will eventually grow tired of raising them and the issue will simply be accepted.

This 457 issue represents the front line of a defacto pilots' dispute and needs to be demonstrated to the gov't to be unacceptable while there are still pilots in this country willing to work for acceptable conditions. To bring in foreign labour on anything less is unacceptable and should be shouted down by every pilot in the country and every foreign-based Australian pilot who thinks he might want to come home to work one day.

If you're in GA and think it doesn't affect you think again. Write to your MPs.

[parabellum]

Would it help, before you start jumping up and down, to ascertain if a requirement for the issue of a 457 visa is that there is no Australian equally or better qualified than the visa applicant available for the post?

[Wunwing]

parabellum

I agree with your sentiments, but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type. A bit difficult to acheive for a new type rating in OZ.

I suspect the LAMEs are even in a worse position over this, particualrly with the new licensing rules being floated.

Perhaps we all should submit comments for the recently announced white paper on aviation and include something constructive on the skills shortfall.

Wunwing

[Dark Knight]

You may also want to check if a certain piece of legislation allowing overseas pilots to work in Australia virtually unrestricted (Hawked and introduced during a certain aviation incident some 19 years ago) is still valid.

To my knowledge it has never been rescinded (but I stand to be corrected) and could well be used to circumvent immigration procedures.

DK

[notmyC150v2]

Since the new Govt took office they have toughened the 457 visa even more than the previous one did.

Before an employer is allowed to sponsor an employee under the 457 program they must first negotiate a Labour Agreement with the Department of Immigration and Citizenship. This Agreement sets out the parameters of how many 457s are to be engaged, what arrangements the employer is putting in place to reduce their reliance on 457s over the life of the Agreement in addition to ensuring that there are no unemployed Australians who could fill the role.

I have had enormous problems getting a Labour Agreement up in an area whre there is huge unemployment and the employer is gagging for staff.

Also there are requirements regarding english language fluency and, the kicker in this case, ALL stakeholders have to support the plan. This means that not only does the employer have to support it but any relevant union does as well. I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that any union would support such a scheme given the number of applicants for every commercial airline position.

So I don't think that this is a huge risk.

[Howard Hughes]

but in the past airlines have argued that qualified means endorsed on type and with experience ie lots of hours on type. Surely 'Qualified' is what the airlines are advertising as their 'minimums'? I suspect a fairly significant legal challenge could be mounted to that effect!:ok:

[airtags]

Think it's got more to do with the bigger picture of the open skies - level playing field mentality that most governments seem to have acquired.

The whole aviation landscape (pardon the pun) is under some delusion that anyone from anywhere can and should just turn up for the gig - the same goes for operator's certificates. - I'm tired of seeing dispensation after dispensation being granted especially to forgein AOC's and LCC's and then before we knew it all the airlines started using the regulatory environment as a vehcile for cost cutting. (if you need an example look at the stupidity of the Mutual recognition Bill) and of course the nonsensical 'blue sky' (sorry.. those puns again) ideas about 'open deregulated' skies for the Asia-Pacific that came out of APEC.

If we do have not the skills and talent for a particular role then give a suitable applicant the Visa - bit if issueing Visas is just another way of cutting costs then its a myopic, very short term view (and I imagine Centrelink does not have too many suggestions for out of work Capts & F/O's.....)

Alternatively, maybe apply the same principle to pollies and political parties...I wonder how many Labor/Lib local branches would be happy with putting up a few imports.:ugh:

[parabellum]

Dark Night I'm pretty sure that loophole has been closed now. Pilots were taken off the list of occupations that had a shortfall of qualified people, (introduced in 1989).

[fourgolds]

Its funny how you guys refer to " Australian pilots wanting to return home"
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.

[4PW's]

Keep adding your comments mate. They're really interesting.

[Another Number]

Its funny how you guys refer to " Australian pilots wanting to return home"
Could one assume they left Australia for better working conditions or perhaps a better package. So I take it this is acceptable. So if an adequately qualified foreigner , legally has the right to have better conditions than what he presently has in his home country desires to live in Australia , this is now unacceptable. Double standards here gents.It may be double standards if those supporters of leaving Oz turned round and claimed we shouldn't accept similar.

However, who's to say those that argue against importing pilots under the smokescreen of a so-called/engineered/convenient "shortage" did support pilots leaving Oz ... and did those pilots take up positions to the clear detriment of locals in the countries to which they headed, or were the circumstances entirely different? Did those pilots prevent locals who'd shelled out AU$50,000 - AU$100,000 from getting the employment that would justify their debts?

Apart from assisting potential victims of economic downturn in certain countries, all that importing pilots would do is add another fraction of a cent to shareholder value of certain companies ... but of course, that's what counts these days, isn't it?

[Aerofoil]

All i'l say is there are countless numbers of Australian pilots working in the uk alone and like there are in Aus there are countless numbers of British pilots without a job and this is part of the reason why. To say its unacceptable for Australia to let foreign pilots work there...seems like a complete double standard to me. Just my humble opinion though :ok:

[ACMS]

utter cock

Aussies are ONLY WORKING OS BECAUSE LOCALS CANNOT DO THE JOB.

I cannot just walkin and get a job in England or the US, why? because they DON'T NEED me.

I can walk into India or other parts of Australasia, why? because they NEED me.

DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY. ( of locally trained crew )

let me say that again for those hard or hearing

DEMAND EXCEEDS SUPPLY.

Simple

This is NOT the case in Australia.

Any Aussie working in England or the US probably had the required Visa before he went ( family connections or born there )

What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.
Anyone who already has the right to work in Australia is very welcome, I don't care where they're from.

So lets stop the utter rubbish said above right here and right now.


In my case if CX managed to find enough locals that could fly ALL EXPATS would be out the door quicker than you could say "wai"

And that's the same with SQ, KE, EK, etc etc etc.

[trubru]

QLink will be in Johannesburg South Africa from the 29th April to the 4th of March doing initial screening interviews through KORR.

I think our SAFA boys & girls will be standing QUEUE for this.

If Q-link didn't have a crewing problem why are they in South Africa?:E

[ACMS]

QFlink don't pay enough money for the young boys and girls to BOTHER applying for jobs. They'd rather push trollys for the same money at Coles and not have to fork out $80,000 to get there.

QFlink are in SA trying to find Pilot's silly enough to work for nothing.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.

Capish?

[ACMS]

In addition to my above posts I would like to add:

That's exactly what occured in Malaysia. 200 Aussies went there after the '89 dispute and filled a need by MH. 4 years later they had ALL LEFT after they were no longer needed.

[Q4NVS]

What I'm objecting to is giving 457 Visa's to Pilots so they can come to Australia and work under a perceived shortage.

QFlink don't pay enough money for the young boys and girls to BOTHER applying for jobs.

Having seen some of the QantasLink 457 Documents, I am no longer convinced that it is simply a $ issue...

Consider this:
QantasLink is willing to pay expenses to the value of 25 100 AuD for any 457 Candidate willing to stay for a period exceeding 12 Months.

These expenses are supposed to cover Furniture Removal, Packing and Storage, Medical Insurance for Non-Australian Residents as well as 1 weeks accommodation for candidate and partner during a Look-and-See tour to Australia.

Also considering that QantasLink are not only looking for 1 or 2 457 Candidates, surely if it was only a AuD issue, they would have considered this first and foremost - Especially considering the difficulty of the 457 Visa Application and Justification Process.

Is it not rather the case that some Australians, having worked overseas for a while (and earning top $), are really wanting to come back to Australia but at the same time are expecting/demanding their US$ T&C's to be matched by any Australian Employer which they might choose?

Remember that those US$ T&C's were structured in a lucrative way for a reason: To add as justification for any individual to be willing/able to stomach the life in "Smoke City" (Hong Kong) or even the Sandpit...:ugh:

Why then not start a new thread to measure/determine what Australian Pilots think they are worth...Something to the line of:

First Officer
(AuD per annum)
REX = 75 000
QantasLink = 100 000
Jetstar = 130 000

Captain
(AuD per annum)
REX = 120 000
QantasLink = 175 000
Jetstar = 210 000

:zzz:

[dodgybrothers]

well it has happened. Certain one star airline has approval for 75 457 visas coming from yarpieland Approved by our great leader Kevin07

[trubru]

Well this is what they are offering....


Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850

Not bad considering that in South Africa one can end up working on a 737-200 doing 90hrs plus per month getting a TOTAL monetary package of ....... wait for it........

$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....

[ULH Extreme]

Trubru, what your paid in your country is your problem, you guys ,like the ozzies have to tackle this at home. You know that Oz have enough drivers to fill these jobs, and some left over, so after thats done, you can fill your boots.
I work in Sing., i'm here because they need me, the minute they don't, bye bye. So when they don't need all the expats in oz, kick em out,same rules.
ACMS, i'm with you

[Kenny]

Gents,

I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas. I've got about 6000TT, 3000 Jet and 500 P1 Jet. My CASA ATPL is up to date as far as the Class 1 and IR renewal are concerned and I've yet to get a nibble from anyone other than NJS.

If I was in my 20's and didn't mind being poor again, I'd have given NJS a go but I can't justify going backwards in terms of pay. $62k is simply not enough for a right seat, jet job.

I'm amazed that Australian pilots have been as quiet as they have about the Yarpies heading over to work for QF Link and Jetstar. It's a very slippery slope and will have serious repercussions for years to come.

[Q4NVS]

$32432.00 per year GROSS - No Loss of license, No Superannuation,No Communication Allowance, No lotsa things....

That is true(bru)...

But in SA you will never pay $450 per week for renting a 1 Bedroom apartment (not even in Sandton). :=

Watch out for the "Cost of Living" factor..:ooh:

[trubru]

Look guys don't get me wrong -

If only the guys here in SA could stand together like you guys do against companies that pay sh!t. I really admire that.

But for us yarpies there are other factors to consider when looking at our problems at home. I really wish it was as "simple" as just staying away from companies that pay crap.

The South Africans that I think you Aussies are more familiar with are the guys that left as soon as they heard that there was going to be a new South Africa.....1994 - 1997. I think these individuals just didn't want to accept the change and the possibility of a brighter future for all South Africans.

However, the majority of people that are leaving now do so for their safety and their children's future.

I think there seems to be a bit of a misconception about what a South African is today in South Afrca.

The truth is - I don't want to leave South Africa. I live in Cape Town and fly a Boeing 737-200. Not the latest technology I might ad, but I'm very happy doing it for a living. Cost of living in Cape Town isn't far off from that in certain places in Australia.

What I'm getting to here is - If Australian Companies are going to come here to look for pilots, they are going to find them.

There will always just be one home for all of us, doesn't matter where you're from, but put anyone in our position and then we talk!:ok:

And that's the truth Bru!

[ferris]

How about we put this in perspective for YOU, bru.

Lets say your employer starts a subsidiary airline, buys news planes and thinks up a wanky name. This new subsidiary offers pilots jobs on, say, $25k pa. You shake your head and say "who in their right mind would work for that money?"
Wanky air starts taking over the routes formerly flown by you in your 737-200. New pilots drift in, but Wanky air just cant get enough drivers on the money they offer. Serves them right, gloats you.
Next thing you hear, Wanky has obtained permission from the govt to offer a better life to pilots from, say, Bangladesh. These pilots are all well-qualified, having flown for BBC for years, and are just looking for a way out of the poverty and deprivation afforded them on the pittance they earn at home. Wanky cant get locals on their crap T&Cs, so there is a "shortage". Wanky's offer is a princely sum, thinks the new arrivals. And their families will enjoy a much higher standard of living in SA on $25k than they were used to.

How would you feel about that, tru? Would your govt be up for that? Instead of asking aussies to put themselves in your position, why dont you put yourself in the position of australians, and have a think about that?

[breakfastburrito]

Trubru wote:
Q-link First Officer
x Base Wage $51,100
x Superannuation (9% of base wage) $4,500
x Loss of Licence Insurance $1,750
x Overnight Allowances ($100/night, say 40 nights p.a.) $4,000
x Communication Allowance (p.a.) $500
TOTAL monetary package $61,850
Let go through this. Superannuation, of no monetary value until you are 60 or leave Aust permanently. LOL, no monetary value unless you get sick and lose your medical.
So, reality Base wage $51,100 taxable, $4,500 untaxed
Tax on $51,100 =~$10,700
In your hand $40,400 + $4,500 = $44,900

I find it hard to believe that you could get a rental property anywhere in SYD for less than $350pw, therefore $18,200 pa.

The next thing to realise, is that Aussies earning this type of money with a family don't actually pay any tax. The welfare system effectively rebates the tax. On top of that, they may be eligible for rental assistance to cover most or all of that $350 rent.

Therefore, an Aussie family income of $51,100 & rental assistance, probably nets in excess of $65,000, including government handouts. In Sydney $65K, is a subsistance existance for a family.
Further, Aussies have a medicare card, and pay a small co-payment ($5 I think) to visit the doctor, and hospital treatment is free. Basic medical insurance is around a $1200 per annum.

As a 457 holder, I don't believe you are entitled, to social security, rental assistance or a medicare card. Therefore if you have a wife and a dependant you will have around $26,000 per annum to spend on food, utilities, clothing, car & medical expenses. I believe this would be well below the poverty line for a family. Will your wife be entitled to work? She will need to. Childcare for the little one while she works, thats at least $80 per day per child, if you can get a place.

If you don't believe me, do your own research. Heres a link to Coles Supermarkets online (http://upcolaph7.colesonline.com.au/), put in a postcode of 2000, Circular Quay and browse the shopping. Sausages, ~$4.70 Kg, most fruit is around ~$5.00kg.

Check out the rental situation realestate.com rentals in nsw (http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?s=nsw&t=ren&snf=rbs&a=sf).
Sure, come do your look see. Make sure you acutally go into a supermarket and do a shop for your family and see how far $500 pw goes.
I understand your predicement, however, please realise that you will be netting about 60% of a subsistance existance, locked into your visa sponsor company, paying tax, but without the social security benefits.

[parabellum]

Good points Breakfastburrito but remember that 90% of the arriving SA pilots will be aiming for PR and citizenship so provided that they can subsidise their salary for a few years they will eventually be laughing and in direct competition with all other Australians.

[breakfastburrito]

remember that 90% of the arriving SA pilots will be aiming for PR and citizenship so provided that they can subsidise their salary for a few years they will eventually be laughing and in direct competition with all other Australians.And in doing so, continue to depress the T&C's in this industry for themselves and citizens below the poverty level. I sure when their done with SA, it will be the Philippines, Vietnam & other poor or desperate countries. In other words, these companies are in fact selling CITIZENSHIP to the desperate.
Can you understand why citizens have a problem with this? If there were no citizens that could do the job, fair enough, but there are. This is not about aviation, but about citizenship. At least we are close to the truth.

[Capt Wally]

Seeing as QFL still req passes in subjects that hardly make a diff to ones flying have these 'imports' got similar or are they looking at pilots who are already type endorsed & will overlook the finer details? I do believe there is a shortage of pilots here in OZ BUT only the types the airlines want.




CW

[ACMS]

AUSTRALIANS FOR AUSTRALIAN JOBS


TID Edit: You're stepping close to the line. Be careful, now.


"click click click"

[ACMS]

If you want to live in Oz then apply like the rest have to do.

Once you get to live here on fair terms THEN apply to whoever you like whenever you like.

Sounds fair and reasonable to me.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.

get in line.

Remember you can't hide your accent, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

And don't bother saying "i didn't know" like the yanks did in 1989.

[ACMS]

To the AFAP:
I propose you place a ban on membership for these IMPORTS and seek the help from other Unions. ( if they'll talk to you )

Don't sit on your bums and let this happen AGAIN.

Come on Mr Cox.

[flyhardmo]

I'm one of those displaced Aussies that would love to return home from overseas.

Understand your situation Kenny. I've got many hours way above the minimums required to fly for any airline/regional in Australia. I applied for Jetstar, VB, REX, Qantas and Cathay for fun, guess who reply's. Cathay. :ugh: You start to feel that as a qualified pilot in Oz no one in the industry wants to touch you because they don't want to pay for the experience. If I had 200hrs there are a bunch of programs I can enroll in to get into these places. I fail to see the shortage but ACMS has got it right.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS.

If the Aussie blokes that live overseas were willing to come back to Qlink, would Qlink pay for the to move to oz, Not a F:mad:en chance.
To the Saffa's. No one would be pi$$ed off if they gave aussie pilots a fair go and paid us a salary that was at least on par with a garbage collector. We are Pi$$ed off because companies will take you guys before us because you are willing to work for less under cutting our salaries and working conditions. Try demanding what you think is fair and see the response you get form the Qlink and Jetstar. Qantas group should no longer be the national carrier as it is only targetting foreign nationals. :=

[who.ru]

Does anyone know if any of the 457 visa pilots going to Jetstar are entering as Direct Entry Captains?
And if so, are they all Airbus command experienced?

[ACMS]

All sing together now:-----

"THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS."

[hoss58]

Hi guys/gals.

Let me play the devils advocate here for a moment.

Would it be a fair comment that when a group of people is trying to achieve a goal i.e better T and C's that if you are patient long enough a situation will arise that you can put to your advantage i.e a pilot shortage.

I suspect that this is about the first time since 89 that a real shortage of pilots (using the current T and C's, in other words enough pilots available but not at the going rates offered by management) has occurred.

So is this the best chance you've had to put some serious pressure on the gangulies of management.

If this is the case then is seems that the airlines have said stiff s..t we'll look elsewere.

Don't get me wrong i've go quite a few close friends in mainline positions and i would love to see them get better T and C's.

I guess the question i would ask is where do you go from here if this was the the best chance of getting what you wanted and given that you've held strong for so long.

Fly safe and play hard.

Regards to all.

Hoss 58

[Ejector]

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS. :ok:

[victor two]

Lets just get back to the facts here -

The 457 visa system is a bonafide working aggreement which has been endorsed by government from both sides. Non Australian persons enter this country every day and take up work under the scheme is a variety of industries.

Aviation should be no different. Employers will employ the persons that they want or need under this scheme as long as the criteria is met. That's the way it should be.

You chest thumping sooks can bleat all you like but when we have so many sections of industry screaming for qualified workers, no government is going to exclude a particular segment of the workforce just because a few pilots are sooking about it. If you are as good as you think you are, then you will have no worries getting good jobs here.

Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.

Like I said, if you are as hot as you all say you are, you should have your pick of the best jobs right here!

Reality ............ its not always easy to swallow for some of you!

[ACMS]

Victor victor victor..............

man you are a lovely person

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AVIATION, I can't speak for the mining industry.

You'll have to go to the PMRUNE ( proff miners rumour network ) to get their take on THEIR problems.

:mad:

Let not forget that aussie pilots head overseas at the drop of a hat and take up flying roles in countries where lots of pilots also compete for employment . Why is that OK ,but we can't ever have any come back this way.

read the posts above goose. Specifically # 15 17 and 18

[victor two]

Two questions -

1 -When did I mention mining?
2 - Why should aviation be different?

Seriously, tell me why there should be one law for aviation and one for every other

Yeah, I read the 3 posts you mentioned, what about the other two and a half pages worth that are written in bold, seventy five point text that scream stuff like "aussie jobs, aussie pilots"

[Dunnybudgee]

As someone gladly flying back in OZ after many years overseas (post 2001) I have to admit I have met plenty of Ozzies living and flying permanently overseas, so aren't we being just a little bit hypocritical here? :bored:

Also lets not forget OZ is an immigrant nation. We or our parents or grandparents etc all came here and got jobs at one stage or another...:rolleyes:

I for one would rather have a yarpy pilot fulfilling DIMA's immigration goals thans many of the others I see us taking in these days... At least they are a positive and skilled bunch - adding something to our community!

The simple fact is we are short of experienced & type rated guys and our employers are too tight to pay for training or to pay enough $$$ to bring other Ozzies home from the sand pit etc. That should be the focus of any lobbying, not victimising 457 visa holders... (IMHO)

[Kangaroo Court]

Even if you brought in immigrants, it still wouldn't solve the problem of aircraft deliveries and retirements over the next five years. The problem is still going to get worse for the airlines before it gets better. I'd rather have experience in the cockpit than get too wrapped up in protection.

[ACMS]

You didn't mention MINING d:mad: I did as an EXAMPLE of other industries importing foreign labour ( Philippines )

HELLO???????????????

Maybe you could mention a few other industries as well?

Hospitals maybe?

Nah they have plenty of Docs and Nurses available don't they

[ACMS]

NOPE not hypocritical at all

READ previous post # 15 and on.

SUPPLY AND DEMAND folks, SUPPLY AND DEMAND

AS they said on the Movie Madagascar: " just smile and wave boys, smile and wave"

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ, OR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE QUALIFIED PILOTS.

ONLY A SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK FOR PEANUTS

[Ralph the Bong]

I tell ya what Victor 2, you sound like a management type. Quite evidently you are not part of the fraternity of Australian pilots. What you are is a PENGUIN. You are involved in aviation, but cant fly.

457 visas open up the Australian market to low paid coolies, nothing more. These people come as indentured labor and undercut what should be the Australian market rate of pay for Australian Pilots. Or do you not feel that the Australian Government should have a social contract with its citizens that gives them preference for employment?

The difference between myself (an expat Pilot) and the 457 pilot immigrants is that in the countries where I have worked overseas, the companies have had to PAY MORE THAN LOCAL RATES to attract aviation talent. This in itself serves to improve conditions for local pilots. The mechanism for this is shown by local Pilots becomming more attractive to employ once they gain the requisite skill set.

What the 457 program will do is undermine local Australian conditions and make it less attractive for Australian pilots to remain in the local industry or in regional operations. If you were a Pilot, you would understand this.

If you are as good as you think you are, then you will have no worries getting good jobs here.

That's the issue, mate, we are good. We are experienced, but there are no "good" jobs in Australia. I wouldn't come back for what's on offer that's for sure.

[ACMS]

mate we are no different to other jobs.

Why should we pay $80,000+ to get our qualifications and then get paid LESS than a truck driver at the mines. THEN the Airlines CANNOT get anyone to FLY their shiny news planes so they say PILOT SHORTAGE then go overseas to find any Monkey to fly for PEANUTS.

UTTER BS

Go back to your desk and leave us alone.

[Ralph the Bong]

Dunnybudgee, this is the crux of the issue:

The simple fact is we are short of experienced & type rated guys

Not the case at all. There is ample, AMPLE evidence on this forum that proves that there are many "experienced and type rated guys" who would love to come back to Oz even at existing rates.

ACMS-with you 100% on this one.

How do you think that the AMA would react if a whole bunch of Romanian, Vietnamese or Zimbabwian doctors come to Oz to work for $2000 USD per month? There is, after all, a shortage of doctors in Australia.

[Ejector]

Trubru, Thanks for putting up the FO T & C.

Can you please do the same for a Cpt please?

[desmotronic]

Is this a case of the incumbents sitting back while the next generation get screwed again? Utterly disgraceful for sc@bs like this who would have no other legal right to work here to be brought in on a dodgy employer sponsored visa.

What are the oz unions doing about it????? I just started flying again and im off to join up and find out.

[max autobrakes]

From good authority, 457 visas will not be an issue for the Qantas Group pilots, the Government won't give the Qantas Group management anywhere near the numbers that they want .That includes JetStar, Eastern, Sunnies ,Qantas.:ok:

[Capt Wally]

I know how about we see that all pilot jobs currently going in OZ be listed with CenterLink. And all pilots seeking a job list themselves as available with CenterLink. Let this Govt Agency put the pieces of the ugly jigsaw puzzle together for us. Obvioulsy the current system is fraught with anger & dissapointment right across the board.
My thoughts are said with tongue in cheek to some degree 'cause I am not qualified to even begin to put that lot together but with threads like this I feel we are now showing signs of self destructing within:bored:

It's a bloody good job that we all LOVE flying 'cause I doubt any other industry would survive the sever instability we have between our ranks.


CW

[Fliegenmong]

"the Government won't give the Qantas Group management anywhere near the numbers that they want "

Which allows us to ponder how many the previous Gummint would have granted :E

HOWARDS FAULT, HOWARDS FAULT, HOWARDS FAULT !!!:p

[ACMS]

there Is No Shortage Of Qualified Pilots In Oz, Or People Wanting To Be Qualified Pilots.

Only A Shortage Of People Willing To Work For Peanuts

Do you non-Pilot's get it yet??????????


YOU ARE NEXT........

[ferris]

ACMS, just to let you know that pilots are not the first (even in the aviation industry) to be treated this way. Recently, air traffic controllers were issued 457 visas in EXACTLY the same manner you are discussing here. Meanwhile, expat aussies were told they were "less suitable" than the foreigners sponsored by AsA (which is, in effect, a govt dept). How AsA was even allowed to provide 457 visas is a mystery (given that the criteria for issuing them was not met). A letter-writing campaign to ministers, MPs etc. may have had some effect. Time will tell.

I hope people understand that most do not take issue with those individuals who have availed themselves of this means of entry, it is those responsible for these activities who deserve the vitriol (and who also are directly responsible for causing the "shortage" in the first place).

You have to love the way the champions of 'globalisation' cannot stomach the consequences of a global market for skilled labour. Rather than pay 'global' money, they distort the market by selling the 'lifestyle' dream. Hypocrites.

[Pin Head]

Kangaroo Court - please explain more about a/c deliveries and pilots required. I know QF have a big 787 order but I didn't apprechaite that the situation was that bad for airlines or that good for me wanting to come in on a 457 visa.

[ACMS]

Ferris: yep, not the first and hopefully the LAST to treated this way.

UP THE WORKERS.

[bushy]

And did our airline pay money for the training in Yarpieland???

[ACMS]

You're assuming there was training....................

If there was QF certainly didn't coff up

[Eclan]

Dark Night I'm pretty sure that loophole has been closed now. Pilots were taken off the list of occupations that had a shortfall of qualified people, (introduced in 1989). "Pilot - Aircraft Pilot" is not on the SOL but is on page 8 of the ENSOL (http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf) - IE: Must be employer nominated. the list of occupations that had a shortfall of qualified people The ENSOL is to do with the Employer Nomination Scheme (Subclass 121/856 (http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/ens/index.htm)). This is a permanent visa, unlike the Temporary Business Long Stay – Standard Business Sponsorship (subclass 457 (http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/index.htm)).

Also included are:
ATCer,
Flying Instructor,
(L)AME.
These are not temporary 457 visas. It is PERMANENT VISAS which are being sought by what is, like it or not, effectively foreign "scab labour" (and that term is used in the industrial sense). The 457 business appears to be a furphy. Barking up the wrong tree?

[ACMS]

ahhhh the plot thickens

[bushy]

A long time ago I was wandering around Adelaide and saw a sign saying"professional employment office" so I went in and filled in some forms. A nice gentleman read out a job description which almost exactly matched what I had been doing for the previous two years.
This led to a job offer from an american company which I accepted, and a very nice american gentleman was able to go home to where he wanted to be. He had been here for six months as the company said there was no-one in Australia who could do the work.

[ACMS]

See, the system can work sometimes.

SUPPLY AND DEMAND at work, gotta love it hey.

[F.Nose]

I can think of at least half a dozen experienced Jet Pilots (off the top of my head) here in Oz with many thousands of hours Jet command time who cannot even get an interview with Jet*. How can Jet* claim the need to employ off shore when there are suitable applicants in their own back yard willing to accept the current T & C's.

Our fore-fathers fought vigorously to protect the T's & C's and the rights of the local Oz work force and so should we.The business of employing cheap overseas labour at the expense of local workers undermines every basic principle of Australian idealology and is a direct threat to the life style of all Australians. We must not let this happen.

If in fact OS Pilots are being employed under the 457 Visa then we must lobby the Government and demand that the AFAP, IAPA and the TWU take immediate action. Anybody who has a job application with any company that employs under 457, and who meets the requirements of that job description but is not given the job or even the chance of an interview must stand up and be counted.

We must speak up and speak LOUDLY if we are going to have any chance of putting a stop to this abhorrent un-Australian business practise.

[Eclan]

Read the posts on the previous page; it doesn't look as though it's a 457 visa issue. If you're going to write to Julia Gizzard or your MP (Member of Parliament) then you should ensure you have a clear picture of what exactly is going on.

[Mat Finish]

Jet* came to the UK 2 months or so ago, and they had zero interest in hiring expat pilots. It was all for show.

Mat Finish
never a shiny moment..:suspect:

[boardpig]

I've been reading this thread with great interest and worry. One thing I have learned from the same situation in other industries is that most employers these days are only interested in one thing.. profits. If there was a bus load of suitable candidates camped outside the likes of J* and Qlink begging for work, they would be completely ignored if the mgt could get overseas bodies for half the price. As one poster put it, J* came to the UK and were NOT INTERESTED in expats. Whilst I admire the spirit of those that promote the "Aussie jobs for Aussies" view AND those that have the drive and determination to get out of a sh*t hole country for a better life, the employers neither admire, nor care about either. They will use ANY method to get the cheapest path to the greatest profits and the cheapo airlines have woken up to the fact that they can acomplish this by using overseas labour.
This is EXACTLY what has happened in the IT industry here. Try to get a start in IT as a young guy or girl fresh trained in Aus and they soon find out that employers have shipped all the startup, first jobs to India. Its not the indians fault, nor is it the young'ins fault. It is the employer going for bigger profits with lower overheads. The Scabs here are the airlines carrying out this practice and the govt for supporting it. These are the folk we should be emailing and calling.:mad:

[Pappy Bovinton]

Just curious - How many BLACK SHEEP are out there working o/seas who would like to come home but for various reasons CANNOT ie. they are TOO experienced eg. A340 Trg Capt but unable to get an interview for an A320 DEC posn?
:*

[TonKat]

The statement referring to 457 visas as low paid coolies is very far from the truth. The requirements of 457 visas is that they [B]cannot[B] be disadvantaged ie. pay must be at a required level not less than for employing Australians.

Consider where an employer is trying to attract people to a non-coastal region. Australians do not want to come here, so the only option is 457 visa.

I might add the people we have already cannot express enough appreciation for the opportunity they have now and are making thier best effort to intergrate with the community.

This is not an aviation industry that I am referring to and that there are unscrupulous employers out there who will try and take advantage of this system and anyone with information that implies that these companies (aviation or not) should make a big noise about it. let's face it - in general there is a great labour shortage in Australia.

[Ralph the Bong]

G'Day TonKat. I think that most of us can apprieciate that the 457 program is designed to attract overseas workers to Australia to meet the shortage of skills in certain industies. However, air pilotage is not one of them.

It should be fairly evident that there are many professional pilots who are Australian citizens who are qualified and willing to return to Australia to meet a shortfall of crews at certain airlines. Further, there are many qualified and experienced Pilots who reside in Australia who are ready and willing to take these positions, if they were offered.

The real crux of the issue remains that in many companies where there is a requirement for aircrews, the problem has been one of pay that is not commensurate with the required skills set. growth in the industry has meant that many Pilots in both regional and major airlines have moved to other companies where the pay and conditions are better; the "Pilot shortage" can be solved by improving T&Cs at Australian air carriers.

So the "Pilot shortage" is an artificial and solveable one. All that is required is that Australian Pilots recieve market rates for their skills. The use of 457 visas in this instance is an abuse of what the 457 program was intended to be about. The program was designed to cover labour and skills shortfalls in critical industries. It was never supposed to be used as a means of keeping award conditions at the levels of the early 1990's.

[TonKat]

I agree with your comments and also your understanding of the broader viewpoint Ralph the Bong.

Could it be that these large corporations have too many bean counters intent on wrestling the last cent out of operations by decreasing the value of the people 'most' important to an air carrier?

And I suppose a naive view would be that any decrease in the availability of aircrew would improve the T's & C's for qualified applicants which is obviously not occurring as these operators are looking at other alternatives (cheap).

[victor two]

ACMS and Ralph the Bong -

Firstly, why are you both so angry, why don't you get married to each other?

Secondly, as I really can't be bothered engaging in some juvenile tit for tat exchange about the 457 system and how the fact that some blokes have apparently great experience levels but strangely still can't get flying jobs and how sad that is and how it costs sooooo much to learn to fly and how we should all be getting paid as much as the reserve bank chairman to fly an A320 up and down the east coast I will make the following consolation to you!

I'll accept your argument......when I read in the paper that despite the fact that Australia is suffering a massive skilled labour shortage, including among some aviation elements, that the government bows to the demands of ACMS and Ralph the Bong and cancels the rights for 457 visa holders to fly australian registered aircraft for emmployment purposes.

Until then, you can both go swivel on it!

TID EDIT: Play nice and keep the name calling out of it!

[ACMS]

angry little ant aren't you.

My arguement is simple mate. So once again, I'll TRY and SPELL it out for a 3 y.o. to follow.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF OZ QUALIFIED PILOT'S wanting to work in OZ.

with me so far buddy?

THERE IS AN ATTEMPT BY ALL THE AIRLINES TO KEEP PILOT WAGES AT VERY LOW LEVELS COMPARED TO OTHER JOBS, AND REMEMBER PILOT'S HAVE TO SPEND AN ABSOLUTE FORTUNE TO GET THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

still here?

THEY ALL KNOW PILOT'S LOVE TO FLY PLANES AND IN THE PAST MOST WOULD HAVE SOLD THEIR MOTHER TO DO IT.

NOW THEY CANNOT EVEN GET GUYS AND GIRLS TO SELL THEIR MUM, PEOPLE JUST AREN'T BOTHERED TO BECOME PILOT'S ANYMORE BECAUSE YOU PAY ****.................

still reading?

SO MR AIRLINE HAS SAID "PILOT SHORTAGE" AND RUSHED OVERSEAS TO GET MONKEYS TO FLY FOR THE PEANUTS THEY OFFER.

THIS IS WHAT WE OBJECT TO.................

THERE ARE PLENTY OF GUYS AND GIRLS JUST JUMPING AT THE BIT TO FLY ALL SORTS OF AIRCRAFT BUT CANNOT SEE A FUTURE IN THE INDUSTRY. REX IS THE WORST OFFENDER.

THE AIRLINES NEED TO START PAY DECENT MONEY TO PILOT'S TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM.

AIRLINES SUCH AS VB ( domestic and not V australia ), JQ ETC ALREADY PAY REASONABLY WELL AND THUS HAVE NO TROUBLE ATTRACTING AUSSIES BACK HOME TO STAY.

IT'S QLINK, REX, V Aus ET AL THAT NEED TO UP THEIR GAME AND STOP DANCING AROUND THE ISSUE.

it's not rocket science my friend.

But don't think that you can cry Pilot shortage when we ALL KNOW BETTER.

IF THERE WAS A REAL SHORTAGE AND AIRLINES PAID A REASONABLE WAGE I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT THAT NONE OF US WOULD OBJECT TO HIRING FROM OVERSEAS.

YOU'VE BEEN SUCKED IN BY THE SPIN DOCTORS.

[ACMS]

as others have said before: 100 CPL holders work in the WA Mines?

why do you think that is?

what do you think the AMA would do if the Hospitals said they couldn't get any Doctors and had to recruit overseas BUT on a very crap wage?

NO NO NO you don't.

Pilot's are by no means unique, however FAIRS BLOODY FAIR.


maybe you'd like the French Pilot back, the ones Ables imported during '89, the ones that had wine with their lunch and very nearly lowered the hill at OOL on approach to 14?
They'd love to come back. Along with the IL86 crew too.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

How exciting! 4 Pages of posts and we've established that the Supply schedule for Labour is directly proportional to price! Maybe if we're lucky we can discover by late next week that the Demand Schedule for Labour is inversely proportional to price!!

http://comic-mint.com/media/client/0653_homer-eating-popcorn-small-c7873.JPG

[Ralph the Bong]

Victor 2,

ACMS and I have had our differences over industrial issues, but I know that we both seek improved conditions for Pilots. Our only major difference has been on how to go about achieving this.

What is YOUR agenda? We can clearly see that the 457 process is now being abused so as to put downward pressure on forces that would otherwise see an improvement in existing T&Cs.

In case you didn't realise, this is a Pilot's forum. Here we discuss issues that impact on Australian and NZ (cant forget velcro-gloved our mates, can we) professional Pilots.

We would be very interested to hear you explaination as to how 457 visas will benefit the Australian Aviation industry and improve that lot of the Australian/NZ Pilot fraternity.

Go on. I double-dares ya. :hmm:

[who.ru]

To Pappy Bovinton,

I would suggest there are well more than 100 experienced Australian ATPL holding airline pilots that are O/S that have 10,000 or more airline hours on Boeing aircraft (with well in excess of 4000 command hours on Boeings) that have had applications on file with J* for a long period of time and are interested in returning for a domestic DEC job (under the advertised conditions). I know of 20 or so myself.

However it appears that J* is only interested in A/bus time for DECs.

I would suggest that if they can't find Australian A/Bus experienced guys then look at Australians with plenty of Airline command experience for DECs.
{I believe that the need for DECs is due to J* not having enough experienced F/Os to upgrade?}

It is believing this and hearing of non Australians being recruited as DECs that seems wrong.

As per my previous question does anyone know how many Visa sponsored pilots have been recruited for J*, and how many are DEC? Also are all the DECs A/Bus command experienced?

I know this post only addresses the issue of DECs and Boeing experience, and I would suggest that there are A/Bus qualified guys as well as experienced F/Os out there too that would like to return home.

Wondering?

:confused:

[toratoratora]

Seriously,ACMS, you crack me up.In the early 90's when flying jobs in the UK were like Rocking Horse Poo, there was no shortage of Aussies flying in Pom because they had a Scottish Grandma, or some other such cr*p.I know- I was chasing my first flying job.
Your double standards are truly breathtaking, and simply reflect what a protectionist racket flying in Oz has been all these years.

[ACMS]

Mate either you can't read or you don't want to.

I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO PEOPLE THAT ALREADY HAVE 457 VIAS'S OR THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN OZ JOINING THE AIRLINES.

I OBJECT TO THE GOVT ALLOWING IN FOREIGN WORKERS TO DO A JOB THAT AUSSIES CAN AND WOULD DO IF THEY WERE PAID A PROPER WAGE.

SAME GOES FOR THE U.K. IF ANY AUSSIE IS SPONSORED BY A UK AIRLINE TO COME AND WORK THEN YOU CAN CALL ME SHIRLEY. BECAUSE I'D VENTURE TO SUGGEST THAT THEY ALREADY HAD THE RIGHT TO WORK IN THE UK BEFORE THEY FLEW? CORRECT? YEAH THOUGHT SO.

SO TAKE YOUR "WE HATE FOREIGNERS" B.S. AND RUN ALONG SONNY JIM.

WE DON'T MIND FOREIGNERS HERE AS LONG AS AUSSIES GET A FAIR GO FIRST....OK?

PROTECTIONIST RACKET??????? well if the UK chose to let Aussies in BEFORE locals then your complaint should be with YOUR Govt and not us.

Because sure as **** is brown we cannot get a job in the US.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

The problem mate, is what you personally call a fair wage. You wish to apply your personal circumstances to what you call a fair wage. (i.e. You'll work for what I consider a fair wage and nothing less). It's a global extension of a unionised world (The company will not employ someone for less than what we - "The collective" say)

So TAKE YOUR "HOW DARE YOU WORK FOR $1 LESS THAN I WOULD argument elsewhere. You don't / shouldn't and should never dictate what any other person should work for.

So what would you say to someone who didn't want to apply / do your job for your salary - if they said "I wanted that job but only for what I consider a fair wage. You've ruined what would have been my job"

Take your "We don't mind foreigners" crap elsewhere. You do - because you know it would increase the supply of pilots. You hate the idea of foreigners - unless they work on your terms - i.e. you advocate price fixing (as do unions). It's just you don't care when it's wages you want fixed.

Individual choice.. It's a wonderful thing.

[ACMS]

You talkin to me?

A fair wage? where did I say that? I think I said a "proper wage"

similar but different.

so did you have the right to work in Oz first, or after the job?

Well that's ok, just stand in line after all Aussies have been offered it first. THEN you can give the great downunder a shot. Till then as you say in the UK toodle pip.

This is nothing less than the UK. the US and most place do, and fair enough too.

And don't start that 1,000 's of Aussies work O/S crap. You know as well as I do that if the UK, Malaysia and the US didn't need them they wouldn't be there UNLESS they previosly had the right to work there.

IN LINE BUDDY

oh and how dare i dictate what you earn?????? WELL WELL WELL now we know........If you think that guys like you accepting crap deals to fly DOESN'T effect the rest of us then mate?????? what ya smokin?

IT IS VERY MUCH IN MY INTEREST TO KNOW AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT.

MAYBE IF YOU GOT OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE YOU"D REALISE THAT ANY PILOT ACCEPTING CRAP LOWERS THEN BAR FOR THE REST OF US.

If you had a problem with Aussies taking jobs in the early 90's in the UK then just maybe YOU should HAVE said SOMETHING to your GOVT back THEN?

So unless you did then I suggest you keep very quiet.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Don't know what your smoking ACMS but it's sure to be illegal in Hong Kong (where you appear to live/work?!). I'm in Australia.

I'm glad you raised the issue that global trade / employment needs to be embraced.

You've challenged the very basis of the entire economy and you are too stupid to realise it. Why should you dictate what everyone else works for?

Don't make it sound like it's about "everyone's wage's" , it's about YOUR wages. You are being selfish and telling other people "Don't you dare apply for a job because it may effect me".. then you dare to imply they are selfish.. you are a joke!

You are nothing but a 2 bit communist who wishes to destroy jobs.

[ACMS]

Yeah I confused you with The JAP Bomber Pilot TORA TORA for a second. Gee sorry, my communist blood was boiling over a bit with red hate at your SELFISH Attitude LOWERING the general WAGES of those not smart enough to NEGOTIATE their own DEALS like you. Sorry MATE.

So, how is JETSTAR doing?

oh and how dare i dictate what you earn?????? WELL WELL WELL now we know........If you think that guys like you accepting crap deals to fly DOESN'T effect the rest of us then mate?????? what ya smokin?

IT IS VERY MUCH IN MY INTEREST TO KNOW AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT.

MAYBE IF YOU GOT OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE YOU"D REALISE THAT ANY PILOT ACCEPTING CRAP LOWERS THEN BAR FOR THE REST OF US.

still applies to you.

If you had a problem with Aussies taking jobs in the early 90's in the UK then just maybe YOU should HAVE said SOMETHING to your GOVT back THEN?

So unless you did then I suggest you keep very quiet.

still applies to the JAP Bomber Pilot

[ACMS]

oh and TORATORATORA, you do know who won WW2 don't you? Your folks wouldn't be too happy with that handle I'm sure.

JAP KAMAKAZI might have been a better handle:}

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Pretty funny line to be taking for a Cathay Pilot who says:

2 words boys...........................Supply and Demand

The only reason Australians are employed overseas is Demand exceeds Supply.

but my favourite of yours - in response to a question if pilots were happy at Cathay:

yawn


haven't you dummies found a job yet?

thought so


so get on with it and leave us alone.

So "they" want to get on with it and you abuse them for not asking for Cathay A rate?? Your hypocracy knows no bounds. Why don't you "get on with it" and leave it to them to "get a job"

I guess you want to come home? Well it would seem Supply exceeds Demand when it comes to meeting your salary desires (when you want to come home) - Mate if you want to come home - come accept the going salary (You ARE a foreign pilot - it's just you are a citizen!!!). Deal with it and stop telling people what they should be working for - because it doesn't meet your retirement plan!

ACMS = Foreign Pilot with citizenship (i.e. doesn't need 457) asking others to not accept lower salary in order to meet his retirement desires. (a.k.a. Hypocrite)

[ACMS]

What was the context I used it in?

That was a long time ago.......

We try to raise the pay and COS at CX and guys like you coming here accepting crap doesn't help. C scales etc etc. (Same as what guys and girls in QF, VB, JQ etc should and are doing to help ALL )

Not sure about them wanting A scales?

We hope no Pilot's join CX on crap deals and unfortunatly some do. This doesn't help ANYONE, you included.

Now read my post again.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

haven't you dummies found a job yet?

thought so


so get on with it and leave us alone.

Why are you posting here? I thought the "dummies" here in Australia needed to "find" a job?

Why don't you leave them alone and let them get on with it? Instead you choose to sh*t stir on your A scale wage telling others what they should work for. Nice guy - tell others to go home and tell their wives "Sorry love, ACMS on his A Scale wage said I couldn't take the job..."

[desmotronic]

Frozo,
UR not even a pilot.
Tora,
RU a 200hr airbus fo perchance? Ever been a captain??
Who.ru,
10,000 is gr8 mate but is it commensurate with age?!
:}:ooh::ouch:

[ACMS]

See it's nothing to do with retirement at CX. It is to do with you heroes accepting crap to fly A320's in JQ on seriously crap wages causing CX to lower the bar even further again so as to MATCH your pay and cond.

What you do ( either here in CX or EK or JQ ) effects the WHOLE Pilot community worldwide.

if you think differently then you are in your own little world.


p.s. How do you know what scale I'm on?

dope

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Ahh.. so it IS all about you..

You MUST be on A-Scale ACMS - otherwise you undercut people and started the decline in CX wages right?

How dare you tell some young guy he can't have a big pay rise because it may effect you? Again, so you insist a young guy should go home and say "Sorry love, can't take a massive pay rise, new job and move to a real city because ACMS said it might effect his A-Scale salary.".

Oh and Desmotronic.. try again.. still can't work out if you were a QF Cadet or Jetstar though..

A-Scale or Hypocrite scale ACMS?

[ACMS]

none of the above d:mad:d

Maybe you'd care to explain this post and how it shows your caring nature for your fellow Pilots in Oz.

It's worse,

The grass is always browner:

US Pilots say : We are full
AUS Pilots say: We are full

Then make a union claim: We are over-worked.... no-one to do our job

When I believe an Australian Pilot stating "We are full" I'll know the Easter Bunny is real. Just proves why wages should go down. People willing to move.... will benefit the entire economy.

well? seems I'm trying to work for the greater good of the Pilot community and YOU? for yourself.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Exactly! That's what I'm saying. (you clearly missed my sarcasm in the grass is browner (i.e. not greener!) quote - relating to worker and then union claims! Funny though that you took them literally) People should be allowed to apply for whatever jobs they want , for wages they are happy with! (Not the wages some Cathay A-Scale guy is happy with)

People willing to move will benefit the economy! It can help reduce structural unemployment.

I don't understand how you think that quote supports your argument. I have no problem with you wanting a higher salary, but don't go around saying "Australia is full of pilots - no-one should be allowed to apply from outside".

Apply for what you want at the salary you want.. NEWFLASH! You don't always get what you want.. it's happened to me (recently in fact - but I'm not running around trying to pressure people to not take the jobs I want) and it happens to others.. it's the way the economy works - it's right, and good!

Sure, you want what's best for you - I have no problem with that at all (in fact that's how the entire economy functions) but don't go around telling everyone that it's in THEIR best interests to refuse a job when you're real motive is looking after yourself at their expense.

[ACMS]

By the way,,,,,,,,,,when I joined CX on B scales it was AFTER the A scalers voted NOT to object to it.

B scalers ( and no-doubt a lot of A ) voted NOT to accept C scales for new joiners, but CX decided to impliment them anyway.

I can sleep very straight in my bed too, and for good reason.

Yes I got the Grass is Browner joke.........

you said "you don't believe Australian Pilot's and that wages should go down"

NICE one, very community spirited that.

IF we at CX can prevent Pilot's joining on much worse conditions that we enjoy then in the long run CX will be forced to raise the bar a bit more. Then everyone benefits. maybe that is a crock of ****, but that's the aim.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Oh Dear... you undercut the wages.. if you and no-one else accepted the wage then they would have had to raise their wages...

Is that the smell of hypocrisy? mmmm.. indeed it is... :=

"I can take the B-Scale guys, but how dare any of you consider taking a "B-Scale" at another airline... tut tut tut...

[ACMS]

They voted to let in B scales, we voted to reject C scales for the benefit of all.

If they had a problem with us joining I would not have come into the mess it would have created. You would have, and loved it.

There is a difference.

Of course I want to keep the wages high, it's in my interests to do so.
But you seem keen to let the wages go down the hill as long as it benefits your position.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

No.. by your own logic you put in concrete the lower wages by accepting the job. I have no problem with that. You accepted a job for wages you were happy with. Now you wish to deny that right to others.

So the "slide" in pay started with the A-scalers... re-inforced by people like yourself. Why direct your anger at those still to come? :=

So should China / Hong-Kong allow non-Chinese to continue to work there or should they dissolve the Chinese equivalent of the 457 Visa? What would you say to a Chinese man who says that you have increased the supply of pilots to Cathay and decreased the wages (especially given the B-scale you accepted). What's the difference?

[ACMS]

No, the A scalers put it into concrete by Voting NOT to OBJECT to the B scale wage.

back then If those up here didn't mind why should I.

Now the B scalers do care and Voted accordingly.

If B scalers didn't vote against the C scale then we wouldn't have a leg to stand on and anyone could join if they wanted to, BUT WE DO CARE and CX was forced to impliment it against our will. Reacting to JQ etc that paid low wages CX lowered the bar even further to about $92,000 or there abouts.


Have you seen how much they pay the locals up here?



Thanks.

right or wrong I followed the majority vote, like a good communist.

At least I'm in a Union and caring about others.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

back then If those up here didn't mind why should I. So you don't deny you were the catalyst in the slide of Pay and conditions. :rolleyes:

Interesting argument you try to make.

How about these apples:

I'll agree (though not in principle) to no 457 Visa's for Foreign pilots if you agree that all pilot's of Australian citizenship be banned from working for foreign registered airlines. Fair's fair hey? Any takers?

Have you seen how much they pay the locals up here?

I can hear a CPL student working in a bar for $20,000 a year saying "Have you seen how much they pay the JQ pilots?"

I'm off to watch TV. Rest assured. Until the day I die, if someone I meet doesn't understand the definition of hypocrisy and needs an example - I now have one.

[busmonkey]

On the Australian Immigration ENSOL and MODL list are jobs like "gardener" and "painter". These are jobs in desperate shortage in OZ, so you guys think it would be ok for me, a qualified A320 left seater to apply for one of these, get into OZ all legal like and then get a job with Jet*? Surely I would be taking a job from a painter or a gardener just to get into OZ, so really what is the difference to applying directly to Jet* which actually pays more than my current US airline left seat job?

[ACMS]

I have said if CX didn't need expats we would be gone tomorrow and if that was the case then fair enough.

A CPL student working in a bar in HK? I doubt it. If he was he'd be earning about the same as a S/O.

You've nicely diverted the arguement from foreign Pilots coming to Australia accepting vastly lower wages against the wishes of the vast majority of Australian Pilots currently employed. Into a CX stouch 14 years ago when the vast majority of Pilot's didn't give a rats. And then called me a hypocrit, well I don't think I am, right or wrong I acted in accordance with the wishes of the majority, something a UNION does.

[ACMS]

Can I get a job in the US as a Union rep, then apply to SouthWest later?

NO


Because that's what this arguements about, not whether I'm hypocritical or not, maybe I am for taking a job 14 years ago after the majority already here voted ok, come on up. Did I did help to lower the wages bar of Pilots around the world because I accepted the job with the blessing of the local Union?


But the majority in Australia haven't voted, ok come on down.


The real issue is "should Australia let in foreign labour to do a job that we could do if they paid a proper wage to attract the people into the Industry in the first place."

Lets vote then, let the majority decide.

[desmotronic]

Come on over bus monkey you can paint my dunny ! Guarantee the award plus a bit of extra retention.

Frozo,
Get a life mate.

[toratoratora]

ACMS-boy, you sure are an angry little powder monkey!You even called me 'Sonny Jim'! Patronising, or what?
So, what were the chances of me ever even obtaining said Aussie right-to-work as a pilot before the job was de-listed? None, right? As I said, protectionist all the way.

Desmo-moronic-FYI, I am an airbus left-seater, 2000 on type- apology accepted anytime.

[desmotronic]

Of course you are sir tora, dost thou have four gold bars in addition to your thy bus and an invite to the house of lords aswell? Wilst thou subject thyself to the scrutinies of the dept in order to scabbify thyself for a pittance?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I never thought I'd say this but great idea Desmotronic... Jetstar should hire a bunch of "painters" who fly aircraft when there is nothing that needs painting... :p

not whether I'm hypocritical or not, maybe I am for taking a job 14 years ago Good to see you are approaching the acceptance stage.

so now it's o.k. to move out of Australia and take a job (so long as it's 14 years ago... i.e. It was ok for me, but not now, now it's a crime) but you can't have someone now come to Australia for a job (unless it's to paint your crapper)..

When I see Australian pilot's advocating a ban on Australian citizen's working as pilot's overseas's I'll agree with you're desire to deny non-citizen's the right to work as pilot's when sponsored by a company.

[ACMS]

All right..........good for you.

And you lot in the EU aren't protectionist then?

I certainly can't get a job there, unless I marry into a right to work.
Do you think BA or VS will sponsor me a job if they can't get anyone to fly their light twins for peanuts? Or do you think the people and Unions in the UK might just object? ( including you)

Because you'd have every right to object and I would support you 100%.

It's not double standards, it's looking after your own Nationals first. If your own don't want the job at any money and there is a real shortage then open it up to foreigners.

Isn't that what most countries do, even the EU ( as one country per say )

[toratoratora]

Sorry, Desmo old chap, don't understand your banter!
Probably because ACMS thinks I'm Japanese.......

[ACMS]

Mate I wouldn't be in HK if SUPPLY ( of locals ) EXCEEDED DEMAND would I? I suggest I'd be home by now, and fair enough too.

That's my arguement, SUPPLY in Australia still exceeds DEMAND.

We CAN SUPPLY ALL the required Pilot's without needing to look O/S for them. We are going round in circles my friend. You in 1 corner and me in another.............

IF YOU CAN PROVE NO PILOT WANTS THE JOBS AT REX, VB, JQ, QLink, Tiger, etc etc even for gold bars then you have my total support and can recruit from South America if that's what you need.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

That's my arguement, SUPPLY in Australia still exceeds DEMAND.... THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED PILOTS IN OZ.


There you have it folks. Apparently Supply exceeds Demand so wages should be falling.
I'm surprised ACMS that you'd be going against union claims asking for better pay and conditions. But hey, if supply exceeds demand. That from a man in China. :8

But regardless.. why does it matter.. in Dec 07 you said
My Pay and COS are between CX the AOA and ME. What he thinks doesn't matter two hoots.

So using that logic, where do you fit in to Aussie pay ? It would appear you don't.

We CAN SUPPLY ALL the required Pilot's without needing to look O/S for them. Who is we white man? You mean that Australian airlines can supply all the jobs (your words not mine) at a some given price. (Don't create a B-Scale - that was only for you at Cathay right?)

So why did Cathay need to lower their wages AND take foreign workers? Seems to go against what you are arguing...

[desmotronic]

Thats right elasticity of supply and demand just like lollipop ladies and bus drivers. BTW frozo who are these pommie's and yankie's on centre, do they know what a GAAP sounds like?

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Thats right elasticity of supply and demand just like lollipop ladies and bus drivers. BTW frozo who are these pommie's and yankie's on ml centre, do they know what a GAAP sounds like

I'll be interested to hear an explanation of your analogy of elasticity of supply and demand being like bus drivers...

I wasn't aware that an accent altered your understand of Australian procedures. How do you go with NATRACKS (presuming you have an Australian accent?!)

[Q4NVS]

ACMS

Thanks for turning a perfectly good thread into a Chest Thumping ACMS Sideshow...:ugh:

By the way,,,,,,,,,,when I joined CX on B scales it was AFTER the A scalers voted NOT to object to it.

QantasLink and Jetstar are infact recruiting people at the same rates (+) of what ordinary Australians are currently working for (I suggest you read post #19 again).

Why are you not having a GO at your countrymen who still fly for Jetstar and QantasLink? According to your arguments they are also screwing the system up, aren't they..?

In life you are either a Pragmatist or an Idealist.
Idealists (read ACMS) belong in Politcs while Pragmatist make good Business Men/Women and Entrepreneurs.

Please check your CX Schedule now, think its time for your next Anger Management Session...:E

[Dogslay]

I would just like to correct the very first post on this thread. The Visa's for the All Nippon Pilots in the 1990's were NEVER cancelled. I should know as I was one of them. I now work in Japan with about 50 Ozzie pilots, all earning LESS than the locals. Go figure

[bushy]

So the airline world is really no different from Australian GA. They learned it from GA.

[obie2]

Would you agree with me if I were to suggest that ACS...or whatever he calls himself...

was nothing other than a bigmouth pain in the butt? :ok: