Newark Air Museum

[Al R]

.. popped into Newark Air Museum on Saturday. I worry about an unhealthy attraction towards canopies.

Quick question. What is the handbrake type device next to the rear seat in the Meteor? Is that how ejections were initiated then, or is it a normal seat and is the lever something as simple as a seat adjuster?

Cheers. :ok:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/1.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/8.jpg
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http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/7.jpg
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http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/m110-1a.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/m109-1.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/m108-1.jpg

[NutherA2]

IIRC it's the seat up & down thingy; I don't think any Meteor two-seaters were fitted with ejection seats.

[Al R]

Cheers.

I did wonder about the seat - it just seemed far too flimsy to be ejectable. Either way, you wouldn't want to get snagged on that lever, leaving in a hurry would you?

Thanks. :cool:

[chiglet]

I don't think any Meteor two-seaters were fitted with ejection seats.

Matin-Baker [the Bang Seat Makers] have been flying two seat meatboxes for years. Nicknamed the T71/2 it is used for "live" ejection trials. There is one on view at Cosford [along with the "Prone Position Mk8"]
watpiktch

[603DX]

In the 1950's several squadrons of Meteors were based at West Malling, none of them with ejection seats. The loss rate at times was quite shocking, on occasions two in one week. The local paper even conjectured whether "sabotage" was behind it. Perhaps the service nickname of meatbox had its origins in the difficulties of getting out when everything went wrong?

[Al R]

There was a post within the military section, detailing Meteor losses. I may be wrong, but it seems to have been running at at least 4 or 5 a month for one particular year. I wonder if that was because it was difficult to fly or whether the pilots were available by quantity, but perhaps the training wasn't what it should have been?

[Argonautical]

What is number 6......Saab 29?

[henry crun]

It would have been a good month if there were only 4 or 5.

Thanks for the pics AL R, they bring back a few memories.

[Al R]

What is number 6......Saab 29?

Nope! :ok:

Scope for a 'Which canopy?' thread..?

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n239/thrust_01/Newark%2019%20Apr%2008/3.jpg

[Al R]

Henry,

I've just read that During service, a total of some 890 Meteors crashed, killing nearly 450 aircrew. Nowadays, thats inconceivable.. especially as it was in peace time.

[henry crun]

That number doesn't surprise me in the least.

In 1953 there 145, (we are only talking about the major writeoff type accidents), and the majority of those would have involved a fatality.

In that same year the RAF lost a total of 486 aircraft of which 334 were fatal.
They were interesting times to live through.

[lauriebe]

Argonautical, try thinking century series.:ok:

[ZH875]

Argonautical, try thinking century series.:ok:

That's a Super clue.:E

[Argonautical]

Can only be an F-100.

[DennisK]

Ref the poor accident record of the type.

In October 1953, I commenced a jet conversion at 209 AFS Weston Zoyland. There were seven on the course. The Mk V11 (no ejection seat) was the dual trainer, the single seat pressurised Mk 1V (no seat) for solo flying.

When I graduated six months later ... we had lost four course members with two on one night. (Feb 12th 1954) ... 57%. Flying Officers Tilley & Fry, RIP. That night four aircraft were written off. The first (Flying Officer Austin) landed wheels up, which initiated the problem.

The second two aircraft fatally crashed on the resultant diversion in low cloud to nearby Merryfield. My aircraft ran out of fuel at 20,000 feet while holding to have the runway cleared. (WA 727) I was lucky to make a night forced landing on the airfield. I believe questions were asked in Parliament shortly afterwards.

Sadly one of the pilots who survived that night was lost the next day with his instructor Flight Lieutenant Pinder. I recall spending almost two hours on one engine (best endurance) searching Dartmoor and the Bristol Channel.

It was a time when many wartime senior officers were also on special 'Jet Conversion' courses, so much so that the usual rule to stand when a senior officer entered the mess, was waived in view of the number on the station.

On that same course, Air Commodore Braithwaite, lost an aircraft following a high speed touch down on the 2000 yard runway. I had an Imperial Square Four in those days, and mounted the bike with a colleague Flying Officer Brian Armstrong ... we chased the Meteor as it went through several hedges.

I recall the scream from the small front wheel as it was dropped on the tarmac at the mid point of the runway and well beyond the 90 knot nose wheel touch down limit (to get three wheel braking) but which didn't work for the Air Commodore.

He wasn't hurt because the cockpit area was clad inches thick in lead! But I did read that he later lost his life in a Meteor at Singapore harbour

Hope some of the above seems interesting ... but it curls my toes when I think back to those days.

Take care all out there,

Dennis Kenyon.

[Al R]

Hi Dennis,

Those stats are horrific! And this morbidly interests me.

Dennis said: Sadly one of the pilots who survived that night was lost the next day with his instructor Flight Lieutenant Pinder. I recall spending almost two hours on one engine (best endurance) searching Dartmoor and the Bristol Channel.

What happened there? Was he someone who made a forced landing in bad weather and/or died as a result of that or injuries sustained?

My god though.. 57%? You probably had better odds during the war.

[smuff2000]

I think you'll find that the no 6 cockpit is a MIG or Sukhoi, not sure which but if I remember correctly examples of both are at Newark.

Paul

[20driver]

HC, just curious, do you know what the RN flight losses were at the same time?
I heard (read) a scary interview with a guy who trained with the RN and was delayed heading out to the carrier with the rest of his training wing. When he got on station is his first job was pallbearer at the funeral for the last of the survivors of his wing. The fleet was switching to jets.

Really incredible loss rate.

20driver

[Al R]

Tom Wolfe wrote;


.. and in that eleven weeks, twenty two of his fellow trainees had died in accidents, which was an extraordinary rate of 2 per week. In 1952, 62 Air Force trainees died in the course of thirty six weeks of training, an extraordinary rate of 1.7 per week.

In time, the Navy would complie statistics showing that for a career pilot, ie; one who intended to fly for twenty years, there was a 23 percent chance that he would die in an aircraft accident. Furthermore, there was a better than even chance, 56 percent probability in fact, that at some point a career Navy pilot would have to eject from his aircraft.


Different times indeed.

[relight9]

Argonautical is surely right, the mighty, but infamous F100.

[BEagle]

DennisK, I've been trying to find out the truth behind "The night it rained Meteors" for ages. I grew up a mile from Merryfield in the early '50s; we had businesses at both Merryfield and Weston Zoyland (and at Dunkeswell and Lulsgate), but the locals well remembered that night! Thank you for the clarification.

My god-sister is the daughter of a well-known RAF character of those days - 'Famer' John Steele who died only a few years ago. He was a familiar face at those West Country AFS aerodromes as he was a CFS 'trapper'. Who inspired me to join the mob!

I can also recall the sight of all the Meteor wreckage piled up in the scrap compound at Weston Zoyland - it was considered quite unexceptional in those days.

At least Weston Zoyland and Merryfield are both still active aerodromes - as are Dunkeswell and Lulsgate!

[Al R]

Relight9 said:

Argonautical is surely right, the mighty, but infamous F100.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/popprune/newark/m040a.jpg

[DennisK]

For Eagle B & A1R.

Funny old world is this. Amazing what can crop up here. I doubt if I have discussed that February night at Weston Zoyland since ... except for the RAF accident inspectors who were so busy they came and went in an hour.

I've been trying to think of the third pilot's name who was lost over the area with F/L Pinder. I went through my training at Cranwell with him. I know that both the Tilley & Fry names were engraved on a service man's commemorative tablet in the Middlezoy church. The entry was wrong since they were listed as having been lost wartime.

The Pinder accident was of course in the Mk V111 which had an endurance with the extra ventral fuel tank of about 80 minutes. The aircraft failed to return after the maximum endurance, and along with several other Meteors, I was tasked with a 'square search' of Dartmoor. Others did the Bristol Channel. As far as I can recall, no trace was found of the aircraft but both bodies were washed up on the coast a few weeks later.

The original Meteor was notorious for a highly variable fuel flow. Lousy Derwents Mk Vs. Some aircraft would fly 60 minutes while others only managed fifty. Sometimes under. I know I was frequently tasked to fly a 45 minute sortie, but I always returned around 40 minutes, often 35! I know I once got diverted to Yeovilton and ran out of fuel on the runway. The navy weren't pleased, but as an 19 year old, I was just happy to survive!

Dunkeswell was our relief airfield for low level practice circuits and I often closed down and walked down for lunch to the local village pub at the bottom of the hill. I seem to remember it had some sort of bar in the cellar!

There's a few more stories of the Zoyland days. We called ourselves ... 'The Zoy Boys' Those of us who survived that is.

In fact I have just been asked to write an article on the Weston Zoyland accidents by the Loop aviation newspaper. www.loop.aero. if you want to subscribe. Its free!

Best wishes to all interested in past times,

At 75 I'm still flying and teaching on helicopters most days, but retirement is looming very large.

Dennis Kenyon.

PS. Anyone remember the Meteor that flew under the Clifton Suspension Bridge at that time. The same day that Bill Pegg force landed the Bristol Brittannia on the mud flats by the Severn River Estuary. Happy days as they say!

[Al R]

Dear Dennis,

I am stunned that flow rates and performance for the Derwents were so haphazard and hit or miss. Was this because they were thrown into service asap? Is this the lump that the Soviets pinched for the MiG 15? Its almost like the Dark Ages, militarily speaking - you just don't expect there to be such a high attrition rate in peacetime.

Al.

[henry crun]

DennisK: I was a year ahead of you at Western Zoyland.
Memory is getting a bit dim now but I think we had about 15-18 on our course and only lost 1, so we fared better than you.

We also completed the course in 4 months, so unless the hours were increased beyond the 65 or so we did I suppose your aircraft numbers or serviceability were not as good.

This photo was taken there for the 1952 xmas card, just off the southern perimeter I think.
Dave Blomley leading George Read and Bill Campbell, Dave had a double flameout shortly after the photo was taken when he had been inverted for about 40 secs.
At that altitude it looked quite exciting for a short while. :)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/crun9/Meatboxformation.jpg

[BEagle]

Al R, all this was 3-4 years before Sputnik 1!

The traitorous Labour government gave both the RR Nene and Derwent to the Russians. This was facilitated by a closet Commie, one Harold Wilson, who was president of the Board of Trade in 1947.

Stalin was amazed - but the Russians promptly copied the Nene as the Klimov turbojet to power the MiG 15.

[Al R]

I was (badly) referring to the era as much as anything I guess, and talk about own goals with those engines. :ugh:

[henry crun]

Al R; I think Dennis would agree that his comments about the Derwent only applied to the earlier marks.
I also suspect that some of the variability could be put down to the poor condition of many of those mark 1V's, which had probably had a hard life in squadrons before being farmed out to the AFS's.

Certainly, in my experience, the later marks up to the 9 did not behave like that.

[603DX]

On the weekend of 9th/10th March 1957 I was in a small group of CCF cadets booked for air experience flights in two-seat Meteor 7's of 500 Squadron RAuxAF at their West Malling base.

We turned up on the Saturday morning, full of enthusiasm, only to find that it had just been announced that all 20 Auxiliary fighter squadrons were to be disbanded, effective from Sunday 10th. All their Meteors were immediately grounded, and our much-anticipated flying was downgraded to a ground tour of the aircraft and hangars.

Not surprisingly, we were very bitter about this, and cursed the politicians who had made this decision based on cost-effectiveness grounds. It was apparently considered that Meteors were obsolescent, and the Hunters, Swifts, and so on were "too technically sophisticated" to be operated by "part timers".

At that time, we were disappointed and upset over losing this opportunity, and it still rankles more than 50 years later. HOWEVER, having read the hair-raising posts in this thread, now I am not so sure! Maybe in view of the appalling accident record of Meteors in general, and of the rather weary state of those passed on to the Auxiliaries, it all turned out for the best as far as we were concerned?

[DennisK]

Hallo Henry,

Lovely to know there are still a few COFs who are about and were jet converted at Weston Zoyland.

On my arrival at Zoyland in October 1953, I remember chatting to one of the completed course pilots. Probably after your course and prior to mine. He just said, you'll love the flying. Meteor is a great ship, but needs watching ALL the time. Apprently they just lost one ship in four months.

Do you remember the drinking place in Bridgwater? Think it was the Market House, on the 'triangular' market square at the top of the town by the cinema. Got my first taste of a back-seat cuddle there!

If anyone out there has any more info on the station in the 1952 to 1954 period, I'd like to hear from them as I'm commissioned to write an article for LOOP ... loop.aero.com (no need to use the ws anymore) ...of that night when the four Meteors were lost. The station CO was a Wing Commander Horne. The school CFI Sqdn Ldr Miller. (obviously dusty!)

Best wishes all,

Dennis Kenyon.