Flight Note amendment

[VH mick]

Who is the correct contact for a flight note amendment if you don't have a cockpit mobile phone - flight watch or the CTA service you are talking to? Any document reference appreciated. thanks in advance

VH mick

[SM4 Pirate]

Wotza flight note?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

'Flight Note' = 'SARTIME with MUM'........

Ring Mum.:ok::ok:

[bentleg]

Who is the correct contact for a flight note amendment if you don't have a cockpit mobile phone - flight watch or the CTA service you are talking to?


As Flightwatch virtually no longer exists the CTA service is therefore the only contact airborne. (I'm not sure how they would feel about it).

[Plazbot]

My response would be that I can submit a Sartime for you but the flight note is your problem. You did not see the Air Traffic service as required before you went so it is a bit rich to expect an Air Traffic Service provider to fix it for you. May as well ask ATC to go and feed your fish while you are gone.:rolleyes:

[StrutlessDrKiller]

May as well ask ATC to go and feed your fish while you are gone.:rolleyes:

What! They won't do that? Sheezh, what's the world coming to!

Dr :8

[VH mick]

If no one interested in flight note amendment then wait till OCTA and broadcast position and intentions and hope in the event of the unthinkable that someone will check ATS tapes. Does anyone know if AusSAR will check ATS tapes if A/C missing? Or always submit flight notification and advise of flight plan amendment.
thanks

VH Mick

[morno]

VH mick, what's wrong with just putting a Sartime in? It doesn't cost you anything.

morno

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

Ahhhh yes, Sarwatch! Where have I heard that mentioned lately?

GG:cool:

[VH mick]

Flight notification with sartime seems to be the only way to go. Flight notes a waste of time imho if ATS not interested in any flight plan amendments. How else will AusSAR know where to look.

VH mick

[SM4 Pirate]

Flight notification with sartime seems to be the only way to go. Flight notes a waste of time imho if ATS not interested in any flight plan amendments. How else will AusSAR know where to look.What's a flight note? Seriously, who holds them? Who amends them, how does AUSAR find out you're on one? ATCs don't have access to anything about your details if you're on a flight note, hell we don't even know about 95% of VFRs even when you put in a full plan; including when you poke into CTA, sometimes it's quite a task to get the info out of the magic box, and even then it's quicker to type it in manually.

As mentioned above; if you lodge a SARTIME then it can be tracked and amended. Do this in combination with a flight note, bingo two checks and one "in" the ATS system.

SARTIMES, however aren't really for in flight tracking, that was SARWATCH... SARTIMES are for a specific time and place; change details along the way, we really just want the next time and place not the how when and why's about getting there.

Broadcasting on area frequency is as useless as using your inflight intercom to make a mobile phone call, something may get through, but I can bet you sure as betsy it won't save your life.

I read a stat once that only one life has been saved ever in Oz, from having SARTIME management. ie if a search was initiated as a result of a failed SARTIME report it was too late; or through other sources details of the incident/accident were already known. What price a life?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

What's a flight note?

????

That's when you scribble on a bit of paper, "Gone flying", and leave it on the kitchen bench for the Missus!

Dr :8

[VH mick]

[quote][What's a flight note? Seriously, who holds them?]
I thought the majority of VFR flights use flight Notes.

[quote][Who amends them]
That's sort of what I was asking.

[quote][how does AUSAR find out you're on one?]
When the responsible person you left the flight note with advises AusSAR that the sartime which they held for you had elapsed.

[quote][ATCs don't have access to anything about your details if you're on a flight note]
I know that ATS won't know anything about my details- thats the idea of a flight note.

[quote][, hell we don't even know about 95% of VFRs even when you put in a full plan; including when you poke into CTA, sometimes it's quite a task to get the info out of the magic box, and even then it's quicker to type it in manually.]
Are you suggesting that submitting details by naips is a waste time and that it is better to submit via radio?

[quote][Broadcasting on area frequency is as useless as using your inflight intercom to make a mobile phone call, something may get through, but I can bet you sure as betsy it won't save your life.]
So your saying that nobody will check ATS tapes?

Has anyone had to amend a flight note? If so what did you do? ie nothing just hoped that nothing went wrong while you were off your flight note plan.

thanks for the replies

VH Mick

[Howard Hughes]

May as well ask ATC to go and feed your fish while you are gone.:rolleyes:
Perhaps that's why they are short staffed, too busy feeding peoples fish...;)

[werbil]

My advice - get a 406PLB with a built in GPS, register it to yourself and stick it in your pocket. :ok: If you're not able to activate it the fact that they don't find you quickly won't make any difference. :}

SARTIME = Know that you're missing, not much else.

FLIGHT NOTE = Know that you are missing and where you might be. Amended with a mobile phone as required, when required. The people I leave my notes with have a personal interest in commencing SAR if they don't hear from me. Can nominate multiple points and they tick them off as I go. Much better option, much better service - nearly as good as full reporting.

For those :mad:wits that are too arrogant to want to help - would you prefer to go back to full reporting for most VFR flights? I'm quite happy to operate to those procedures again - just remind me how to do it.:ugh: Or are you ready to take a heap of SARTIME nominations and cancellations by radio - lets say at a guess on BN CEN 135.5 alone the local operators would generate up around a couple of hundred sectors a day?

[VH mick]

Thanks Werbil. :ok: The 406PLB sound like a good idea.

VH Mick

[morno]

I'm starting to get confused.

VH mick, are you getting confused with a FLIGHT PLAN??

Reading some of your replies, it almost sounds as though you're talking about a FLIGHT PLAN but calling it a Flight Note.

Which one are you on about??

morno

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Mick,

Please Check your pm's.

If you mean a FLIGHT PLAN, as has been suggested, then that is different.
You can call ATC on the freq shown on a VNC chart, or an ERC Low for your area. These charts are available from your local 'aviator shop'.

Do you have access to a local instructor?

Regards,:ok::ok:

[triadic]

If my memory serves me correctly, about the time that VFR full reporting was withdrawn, the then CAA (Airservices now) printed a "Flight Note" pad that a VFR pilot could fill in and leave with Mum or some responsible person who would have the responsibility to make a call if you did not phone in or contact by the arranged "private" Sartime. Had all but forgotten about them as they only lasted a short time as these sort of things started to impact against someones budget in the AWB.

If you insist on going with a sartime to Mum or just NoSar and want to leave your "mark" in the system, then call up for an Area QNH every so often.

A full blown search will retrieve the tapes, but it aint quick. Best lodge a flight plan with a Sartime.

By the way, it is not real good policy to lodge a Sartime near or after last light as by the time the search is under way, except for electonic searchs the eyes wont be looking for you till the morning!

:cool:

[VH mick]

Gents

I'll try and clarify. :ugh: By flight note I mean the form as per AIP ENR 1.10-23. You still need Dep pt/s - Route (turning points) and destination/s. I suppose by flight note plan I'm talking about Dep pt/s and route.
Scenario is this - Job is to fly client from A to B. Flight note is left with Boss which documents my route. Half way to destination client advises he forgot a very important tool which can be picked up at C. Client also advises that sufficient fuel drum stock @ C.
Seeing that I'm a helo and out of phone coverage is there a way of telling someone where I am so they know where to look if things went wrong. I would think it would be a waste of resources for AusSAR to be looking 50miles from where I am. Hope that clears things up.

VH Mick

[AerocatS2A]

VH mick, it seems to me that you want to remain outside the system until such time as you need it. It doesn't really work that way does it? If you want to use a Flight Note then you have to live with the limitations that it imposes on you if you can't contact the person holding your details. If you want ATS to provide some kind of service, then you should file a plan, nominate a Sartime, and use the system properly.

[SM4 Pirate]

I thought the majority of VFR flights use flight Notes....[Who amends them]...When the responsible person you left the flight note with advises AusSAR that the sartime which they held for you had elapsed. VH-MICK you are answering your own questions here... If you’re leaving a note with someone in Aviation speak (ie on the official form), aka Flightnote, left with a responsible person, ie mum, dad, sister, boss etc. Then they’re the ones that can amend it.

Can I help you get a message to them as an ATC, well yes I probably could, just ask. But giving me a flight plan amendment in the blind, which is what I assumed you meant ain’t going to get us squat.

MCK: “Centre MCK request”
Centre: “MCK Pass your message”
MCK: “Centre MCK flight plan amendment”
Centre: “MCK Standby” {me looking in box for your plan, which I can’t find}
Centre: “MCK Did you put a plan in”
MCK: “Ahh no just left a Flightnote with the wife”
Centre: “MCK so what do you want me to do?”
MCK: “Acknowledge my amendment”
Centre: “Go ahead details”... etc.

Then after all that what am I doing with the information? Well, I’ll put it on my console log. In the event of something going wrong will AUSSAR see my log, well yes, maybe after seconding it somewhere between 12 hours after you go missing to 5 days after, if they think it necessary.

Are you suggesting that submitting details by naips is a waste time and that it is better to submit via radio?No I’m not, just that if you submit a VFR plan via NAIPS it is quite likely that the TAAATS system will filter it and ATC won’t have the details; thus it may be quicker over the radio to obtain the details “again”.

VFRs that plan to avoid Class C don’t get into our system unless we ask for them, they are filtered to save operational memory thus keeping the elephant running faster; ie VFR requesting a RIS in E is time consuming to get the plan up and running, even if you did put a plan in.

So your saying that nobody will check ATS tapes?Yes that is what I’m saying, the ATS tapes may be considered and listened to, but generally not on a first action basis. If you went missing at 1400 and you departed at 0800 then there are 6 hours to listen to and multiple frequencies no doubt involved, where do you start looking for the needle in the heystack?

As an ATC I’ve never been asked to amend a flightnote that I can recall anyway; and generally speaking I hope I don’t have to. As far as this ATS is concerned it’s not in our system, we aren’t geared up to do anything about it etc. I would consider it with the same priority as a fuel order for arrival at your next aerodrome; tell someone else please, nothing to do with ATS. If I’m doing nothing I might dig out ERSA and find the number and ask my boss to make the call, we aren’t allowed to make non-operational calls at our consoles, and maybe I can get a message through... But don’t expect that during a rush.

For those XXXX wits that are too arrogant to want to help - would you prefer to go back to full reporting for most VFR flights? I'm quite happy to operate to those procedures again - just remind me how to do it. Or are you ready to take a heap of SARTIME nominations and cancellations by radio - lets say at a guess on BN CEN 135.5 alone the local operators would generate up around a couple of hundred sectors a day? Are you starting to feel the heat up there Werbil? Geez, take a chill pill; it’s not about not wanting to help, it’s about knowing how to help?

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

By flight note I mean the form as per AIP ENR 1.10-23.I'm with the Pirate here. If you choose to lodge your details with another Air Navigation Service Provider (e.g. Yer Mum), then lodge changes of details with that ANSP also..

If, on the other hand, you propose a flight plan amendment, and finish it off with "no change to SARTIME" and the change does not affect a clearance I will write it on my pad provided for that purpose, not suspecting the naughty (and irrelevant) truth. It will be retained for 30 days, which would be looked for and acted upon when yer Mum raises the alarm, within a day or two anyhow. Even if you did have a flight plan in the system I can't necessarily get at it if it doesn't affect ATC, it is supposed to be filtered into an electronic box somewhere.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

VH mick, suggest you invest in a satphone.