Sartime vs Sarwatch?????

[mic310]

Guy's what is the basic difference between the two, Looking though jeppies,and a few people I have asked, there have been mixed responses. Got asked this on a check ride>

[VH-FTS]

This may answer your question:

http://www.vatpac.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-2886.html

[mic310]

Cheers FTS:ok:

[helopat]

Original post withdrawn...far too confusing...apologies to all for shooting from the hip.

HP

[homeless1]

mic310........ how did you respond to the initial question ???

[morno]

Helopat, I think you'll find you're not quite right with the SARWATCH. I fly IFR every time I fly, and I've got a continuous SARWATCH, not a SARTIME. :ok:

morno

[Unhinged]

Helopat, some rather muddled thinking there.

SARTIME... need to cancel that SARTIME on arrival at your destination. IF you don't, they start a full fledged search for you when you don't arrive or fail to cancel with CENSAR

No. Whether by by accident or carelessness, a high number of sartimes are left to expire even after the aircraft has landed safely, and it would be not be sensible to start a "full fledged search" as the first action. If you don't cancel your sartime before it expires, the first thing that will happen is that they will start calling around trying to find you - On the radio, on the phone number you gave them, or by contacting other aircraft or controllers at your planned destination, etc, etc. After several levels of increasing response with no resolution, a full sar phase will eventually be established.

SARTIME...file an IFR flight plan, you automatically have a SARTIME activated when you give your departure report. If you're ending up in controlled airspace, tower will cancel your SARTIME when you land. If you're landing at an uncontrolled airfield, when you give centre your landing report, they will cancel your SARTIME.

No. You do not have a SARTIME when IFR, you have a SARWATCH. There is no specific time involved.

SARWATCH...if you are doing airwork at an uncontrolled airfield as part of your IFR plan and report 'changing to ABC CTAF 123.45, ops normal by time three zero or on departure' you've essentially established a SARWATCH for yourself...not as big a deal as SARTIME, but if you don't give him a call with your ops normal on time, the result is essentially the same.

No. If you tell centre that you'll call them "by time three zero", then you've given them a time by which they expect to hear from you again, so you have a SARTIME. Your comment about "not as big a deal", makes no sense either. SARTIME and SARWATCH are both a big deal if you don't cancel them (whether explicitly to Flightwatch, or implicitly by contact with the tower at a controlled airport).

[SM4 Pirate]

Woz done 'ere a while back: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315786&highlight=SARTIME%2C+SARWATCH

[No Body]

You could just resort to doing what everyone else does who doesn't know the difference and call centre after landing to "Cancel SAR"... :rolleyes:

[Thermal Bandit]

The reality is a SARTIME is a SARWATCH, but for the purpose of aviation here in Oz we do differentiate between the two

Quite simply a SARTIME is a time nominated by VFR pilots usually during the flight planning stage for the flight; The Sartime could be for a single leg of a multi leg flight and can be held by CENSAR, your company/flying school or even your mother-in-law. 15 minutes after a SARTIME expires if held by CENSAR they hand the “SAR Phase” over to AusSAR who are then responsible to determine the safety of the flight regardless of the time of day. Company operations manuals will clearly state what is required if they are holding the SARTIME.

Common errors pilots make when managing their SARTIMES include not cancelling the SARTIME if the flight is cancelled, not amending the SARTIME if their flight is delayed, or just plain forgetting.

A SARWATCH for the purpose of this application applies to what was once referred to as a Full Reporting Flights; today this only applies to IFR flights. The SARWATCH commences with the ATS system when the pilot reports either taxi or departure, applies to every position report and arrival until cancelled.

Up until 12 December 1991 this procedure was also available to VFR pilots

Today the two words can assist ATS staff quickly determine if you are IFR or VFR; if you report “ABC Circuit area Sheep Dip Creek cancel SARTIME” you are telling the operator you are VFR, of you say cancel SARWATCH you are IFR.

Hope this helps :)

[MaxspeedSlowdown]

VFR flights operating under an airways clearance are subject to SARWATCH.

Eg, Inbound for a landing at a aerodrome swithin Class C/D airspace, if you go missing or don't answer radio, a response will be intiated; escalating as the situation becomes more of a concern (ie not answering, disappearing from radar, or don't show at landing aerodrome)

So if you are at 15 NM final and your SARTIME is about to expire, ask ATC to cancel your SARTIME for arrival. You don't need ask them to extend it, as you are subject to a SARWATCH until you land. NB: This applies only if your destination is not in class G airspace.

My understanding anyway.

[SM4 Pirate]

I suspect overwater or other scheds are too classified as SARWATCH (although they are probably individually nominated SARTIMES although not recorded or acknowledged through CENSAR/Flightwatch).

Also VFR getting a RIS in E or G are subject to SARWATCH. Basically anytime that you are 'required' to have two-way comms with ATS you get SARWATCH; if you change frequencies without asking or being told "Frequency transfer approved", we'll chase you etc.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Hmmmm!

Doesn't the very existance of this thread tell you something about the state of GA training in this country today?

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Agreed DOC

And its always wise to train them to CANCEL SAR when on the ground or in the circuit if need be.:rolleyes:.... But its always nice to hear from the folk in .... where ever they are, and to be sure they are still doing the job of looking out for you:E

Or as I do, set the alarm on my phone for 5 min pre SAR time, and even if the phone is off the alarm still goes nuts!:ok:

J:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Now Jaba, don't be a smarty!

On the very rare occassions that I have forgotten to cancel - I have been in no doubt whether it was a Sarwatch or a Sartime that I have failed to cancelled.

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Was not pointing the bone at you:ooh:

In your case it would have been SARWATCH though......we all know the Forkair Ops Manual states....................:}

J:ok:

[Defenestrator]

Bringing this little fella back from a long sleep.

Quick Q: Can anyone give me a reference to the requirements for Sartimes for aircraft engaged in VFR Charter?

Buggered if I can find it.....:ugh:

D

[cancel_speed]

Lets be honest, it is not friggin rocket science

[Defenestrator]

Indeed it's not rocket science. What I can't find is the direction in the Regs that outlines the specifics of the requirements.

[Turban]

Yes SARTIME for charter Ops I know it`s in the vfr guide sorry no time to write it and the pdf version is locked so no pasting :ugh:

Anyway, yes you need SARTIME for charter , ow flights, night flights beyond 120 nm and in designated remote areas of course :ok:

Hope it helps :)

[Defenestrator]

Thanks Turban,

I went through the VFR flight guide earlier. It didn't help much. I haven't flown VFR for many, many years hence the reason for my question. Let me pose a hypothetical and see if that helps.

Departing on a multi sector day VFR freight run. Can I 'legally' hold a SARTIME for the final destination or do I need to nominate each arrival point along the way? In reality for maximum protection you'd nominate the enroute arrival airfields. But again what do the regs say with regards to lodging a SARTIME for the final destination ONLY?

D:ok:

[Lasiorhinus]

It amazes me how so many people find it too hard to look at the AIP, and pass on almost-correct but nevertheless incorrect information.

AIP ENR 1.10 2.12

VFR flights in the following categories are required to submit a SARTIME flight notification to ATS, or, as an alternative, to leave a flight note with a responsible person:
a. RPT and CHTR flights;
b. over-water flights;
c. flights in Designated Remote Areas;
d. flights at night proceeding beyond 120NM from the aerodrome of departure.

my bolding

[Lasiorhinus]

Defenestrator; only one SARTIME can be active for any given aircraft at a time.
What you should do, if you wish to have a SARTIME for each of your destinations, is file for the first destination with a SARTIME, then upon arrival, contact CENSAR and cancel, and at the same time nominate your SARTIME for your next leg. Do this every landing.

[Turban]

First thing that comes to mind is that when you log a flight plan on the NAIPS for exemple you can put in your waypoints/segments but you are only asked once about SARTIME , either the one for departure or arrival.

But that`s only from a `practical` point of view. But if ASA does it that must be legal :}


I`ll post further details... if I find any :}

[Defenestrator]

Lasiorhinus,

Alas you're missing my point and I really don't know how I can make it any clearer. Whilst I appreciate your 'amazement' I'll accept that the question is poorly posed and attempt to dumb it down (no offense meant).

Multi sector, day VFR, Freight Only, Charter flight:

Departing from A to E with stops at B, C, D along the way to drop off and pick up freight.

Q: What's legally stopping me from nominating 1 (one) SARTIME only for arrival at final destination E? This SARTIME would be nominated via NAIPS when submitting the Flightplan prior to departing A.

D

[tmpffisch]

Q: What's legally stopping me from nominating 1 (one) SARTIME only for arrival at final destination E? This SARTIME would be nominated via NAIPS when submitting the Flightplan prior to departing A.

Airmanship Defenestrator.....there's nothing stopping you from doing a lot of things; but when things turn to sh:mad:t, and you're hanging upside down in a tree between A and B, waiting for your SARTIME at E to expire, you may learn something that day.

[Defenestrator]

tmpffisch,

Thanks for that little chestnut. You are indeed correct on the airmanship angle. At no point have I made any suggestion that I WOULD proceed from A to E via B, C, D with a SARTIME for the destination. I'm proposing the question as to the legality of doing just that though.

I have my reasons for asking.

D

[mcgrath50]

It's perfectly legal to do what you are suggesting.

[cancel_speed]

Defenestrator, i agree with tmpffisch it's a pearler :ugh:

Airmanship Defenestrator.....there's nothing stopping you from doing a lot of things; but when things turn to sht, and you're hanging upside down in a tree between A and B, waiting for your SARTIME at E to expire, you may learn something that day.

hahahahahaha

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Unless your ops manual states otherwise...(read as stricter requirements)

[mickjoebill]

What percentage of VFR flights (including microlights) are conducted without a Sarwatch?

The reason I ask is that if a member of the public calls 000 and reports a "suspected aircraft crash" in the absence of finding any wreckage, ground emergency services, (police CFA and SES) will call off a search if no aircraft has been reported missing by ATC and or perhaps a check with Sarwatch.
(can anyone confirm time frame if sarwatch are asked for their opinion on suspected incidents?)

This leaves VFR flights without Sarwatch very exposed, especially in late afternoon crash.


Apparently in general Police Airwings and ground ambulances do not respond unless an aircraft is reported missing/late or wreckage is found.

This leaves ground crews to search, this is not ideal as it is very difficult to find wreckage in the bush.
You will recall the tragic fixed wing crash in Aug 2011 near Wallup, where locals heard the crash. Even thought the probable crash area was narrowed down to a few miles and the terrain was mainly open paddocks it took nearly two hours for ground CFA SES and police search teams to find the plane. At least one of the occupants survived the initial impact.

It is ironic that whilst a positive outcome for passengers if the aircraft does not burn, without a pall of smoke the accident site is very hard to find by ground search teams in rural Australia.


If there are significant numbers of flights occurring without SAR should SES and CFA and police management rethink their response to reports of possible aircraft incidents?

Mickjoebill