Virgin FSM's to be axed

[teemok]

I have just been told by a senior executive within Thompson of a conversation that took place between Pedro Achillea (VS Head of cabin sevices) and a number of his friends in a bar. This reliable source knew a huge amount of detail of our company/role/present situation and said that Pedro will be completing the same service "review" with the FSM's as he did with the IFBT's. Only this time we will not be offered anything other than redundancy, the plan is to get rid of the high cost of the FSM's and allow the CSS's to run the flight saving the company about £15m a year.

Our "consultation" period will start after the pay discussions have finished in April/May 09 and once the crew are tied into a long term deal. The union are unaware of this and will not be told until just prior to April/May 09 due to the high number of FSM reps in the union

The advice I was given by this good friend was to get out before Pedro wields his axe. We must act to stop this guy coming in and axing our roles as he has in other companies .

[sebby]

Has your friend considered writing to Virgin and explaining what they have heard.

Im sure Virgin will be very interested to know their executive plans are being discussed at voice in bars by their own senior staff... :=

[Virgin89]

I think with the current situation regarding the IFBT's rumours are running rife. This has to be another GFM rumour and one that I don't think we should pay any attention to.

I attended the last OBM managers meeting yesterday and was told from the horses mouth that the FSM and CSS role is being enhanced and developed to make the role become managerial and not axed as per this rumour.

There was even mention in the future of introducing performance related pay in conjucntion with achieving set targets, which gave me a huge boost. I left feeling very positive about the future and I know for one that Virgin as a company would not do this to the FSM role as it is valued.

We talked yesterday about being in a 'fit' position for the future when we are dealing with open skies and increased competition. I for one want us to be in this position to save all of us and to give us greater Airshare and pay for the future.

Having seen the damage to morale that these rumours did during pay I don't think that we should be speculating on rumours that are unture.

Lets stick together guys, happy flying

[fruitbat]

It's the guy/girls first post. Ignore it, just a wind up

[teemok]

Virgin89...You are clearly a manager from this response.

Fruitbat ... This might be my first post as I dont normally involve myself with GFM as V89 suggests, but what other option did I have on hearing this from the horses mouth. Rumours in VS turn out to be true these days and this is not the first time we have heard it.

Trust me this is not a wind up, I certainly have better things to do with my time.

[Virgin89]

Teemok, if you look at my past posts regarding pay you will clearly see that I am a manager, an On Board Manager.

I guess you are saying that because I submit a balanced post (in my opinion) that I must be a manager as I am not sitting here thinking that this rumour is true.

I am sorry to have to prove you wrong regarding my rank at work, however the role of FSM is one that I've held for many years and one that I enjoy very much.

I also enjoy working for this company, otherwise, if it were as bad as many people on here say I would have left years ago.

The long and short of it (and this is my opinion only) is that as crew we spend a lot of time creating rumours that someone has heard. Rumours that 9 times out of 10 turn out not to be ture (Linda Moir and the Bently that she drives and the huge bonus that she received for getting pay through rings a bell). The truth of that rumour being that she is no longer in the company.

People will believe what they want too and I can't do anything to stop that. I will however continue to communicate as an FSM to my crews of any changes that are happening within the company and I will continue to either try to confirm or deny rumours that come up

Cheers
Virgin89

[Flower Duet.]

I have got a friend who has just been Promoted and her course has been put on hold. she said it's because they want to get rid of the FSM role onboard and just have one CSS on each flight.

Sounds Mad too me and I hope this does not happen I do think the IFBT'S did a great job and made the Virgin Brand unique.

Let's hope it's Rumour !!!

[teemok]

Virgin 89 .. as an "on board" Manager (I guess CPM's are sometimes on-board) you are very quick to jump to the companies defence without questioning anything.

I guess we will see who is right in 12 months time - mind you if GFM is right you will be gone before us.

[koru_kid]

At Air NZ, the FSM position was "enhanced" a couple years ago.

From 115k a year 'Inflight Service Directors' who simply served as FA1 on the flight and had no other responsibilities, they went to 95k a year 'Flight Service Managers', who in addition to being FA1, 'manage' a team of ten or so crew, some of whom they might not fly with for years - calling them at home on their days off or on sick leave to "check their welfare", representing the company at meetings when you go over the absence limit, "coaching" them and developing their "career plans", etc. The amount of paperwork is obscene and the attrition rate has skyrocketed.

I'm not sure if the FSM role at Virgin has any ground responsibilities, but offer this info as something the VS FSMs may be able to "look forward" to. Funnily enough, the latest rumour around the blocks is that the NZ FSMs may be taking more of a ground role, and the ISC (our version of the CSS) will "run" the flight..:confused:

[I Just Want To Fly]

The rumours I heard were that there would be one FSM and one CSS. If they are going to cut costs, surely this would be more logical.

At the end of the day, we still make profit, perhaps some say even more profit than is actually declared. There are lots of rumours about the sale of SQ's 49% share in VS. Perhaps we are slashing costs to make the airline more appealing to the likes of LH or some unknown third party.

[pokergirl]

"I guess we will see who is right in 12 months time - mind you if GFM is right you will be gone before us"

Nice to see such great support Teemock:D

I too have been to the onboard managers meetings, and whilst the point of lots of changes has been pressed to us, the need for all the crew of al ranks to support them ,for the good of the airline is essential.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Little bit scary isnt it? I guess the long and short of it, is that it is not a crime to promise people that their jobs are safe, even if that means a post on The Verb or calling the OBM Meeting. Makes perfect business sense. I only hope that the union take heed and manage to get something in writing for the foreseable future. We've seen it happen with other airlines and thats not to mention the poor IFBTs. No doubt about it, there is definitely a management shake-up going on, and inevitably their will be some poor choices made. Just look at the J product!

[pokergirl]

All fsm's got an email from pedro the other day confirming that these were simply just rumours! I received one. But it does make you think, i too hope the union could get something in place to protect us all.

[BlueTui]

I think you may be onto something Pokergirl, If the company(virgin) are not intending to axe the FSM role then they will have no qualms into entering into a deal with the union. Currently at my airline our union faught and secured a "no compulsory redundancies till nov 09" (to much stamping and dummy throwing at Tui towers) but if Virgin have no intention of axing your role then it would be a simple paper excercise which would help quite a few FSM's and (near promotion) CSS's get on with their lives.

Maybe something to put towards your union reps?

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Just makes me wonder, how long did Management know about the IFBTs? Afterall they all recieved April rosters, most of which were stood down from.
I cant help feeling that there is something fishy going on.
Look at it from managements point of view. Flights often go out with no FSM, just two CSSs, with one running J and working as FSM. The flight report comes back and says 'fine, no probs'. Management think "hmmmmm"
But that is not a true reflection. The thruth is, that the flight reports say little because there was no time to write them, the Captain is pissed off as technically there is no cabin-in-charge, the pax dont get the intro and walk through, ground staff get little communication because the 'stand in' is busy opening wines etc, no time to do crew feedback and onboard training. No ONE person in charge to deal with pax problems. Yes the CSSs do cope, but only by flicking through manuals, asking FD questions, ignoring other essential duties and then hoping they dont have to act up for some time!
Phew!:{

[varga girl]

Veering slightly off thread a bit, I would love to know who actually chooses the management we employ! Just seen that Jenny Crinnion/Hope has resigned-couldn't see that coming!!!!! Basically she took the job, got up the duff straight away and now her maternity is coming to an end, has resigned. Who knows how much Virgin has been paying for her, whilst she has actually (as far as I can see, feel free to correct me!!) done bugger all at Virgin. The only evidence I can see that she has actually "worked" at Virgin, is that she has subtlely given jobs to all her old cronies from Britannia (hiya Pedro!). Between her, Linda Moir (who was a reject from BA), Matt Lee and Lyall (who were responsible for Ansett's demise!),not to mention the saga of the amenity kits, the removal of the IFBT and all the other cost cutting devices, I think someone from a rival airline has cunningly infiltrated Virgin and is systematicallt destroying it from inside!!!!

Keep the FSM's, lose the idiots who are responsible for these decisions!!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I'm actually looking at other airlines now as we speak, unless we get something in writing confirming that if there are job losses, it will be last in that goes.
I'm not prepared to give my all and commit to a company that will probably shaft me, unless I have this.
Do you think all of this is due to the proposed strike? Very unfair if it is because we actually made our targets and will be getting airshare.

Any pilots out there have an opinion? I always like to listen to our FD as they tend to be the voice of reason these days. I believe 100% what they say and diddley squat what management say!:ugh:

Heartbreaking watching what has happened to this once stylish, brand leading airline, totally heartbreaking :confused:

[teemok]

totally agree!

We need new management. God knows what this Pedro is up to, but he needs to go and quick.

[beerdrinker]

Please excuse this input from an interloper, but in order to understand the problem could you please explain FSM and CSS?

Is the FSM the Flight Service Manager, senior cabin crew on board akin to BA's Cabin Service Director - CSD. And is the CSS the Cabin Service Supervisor, in charge of a particular cabin akin to BA's Purser.

Thanks

[pokergirl]

Yes beerdrinker that is the case. The rumour is that the FSMs will be going and 1 css will take the flight.

[joeflyguy]

Dont you find it Ironic that the now Manager Of International Airline, for Air New Zealand, came from Virgin.

So what changes were made upon his arrival.

Yeah they got FSM's ..... just like he had at Virgin

Then they got the Lie-Flat-Beds ...... copied from Virgin

Then they adopted new service changes ..... just like Virign

Then he bought about an onboard non-working specialist role ..... kinda like virgin

Is there an original thought in the mans head at all .... so I guess they can hope to see these changes initiated at Air NZ in the near future as he hears about them also.

[Barbarella1]

This is yet another annoying rumour, and I'm with Varga Girl, get rid of those that claim to be running this airline and we will undoubtedly see a difference - for the better!

I've just been to the base where an FSM course is going through as I write this, and with all the other rumours that are going round, as SCC I no doubt will be about to loose my job, despite the length of time in my role!

Although the 1 CSS rumour is also flying around, I doubt this would happen, it would only take one pax to hold up the FSM on their walk round and then then it would be left to the SCC to ensure everything got done in J, and as much fun as it is to do more than you are paid for, there aren't many of us that want to do that!

[4engines4longhaul]

This rumour concerning the future of the FSM role, is simply that, an unfounded rumour.
In fact, in the next year or so, the FSM's will more than likely get a significant payrise, to recognise their management responsibilities. What is almost likely to happen though, is a reduction of the number of crew on board, with a service re-jig to make it work. With average crew turnover at 16 months, which is the same as it has been for 20 years, it is unlikely to mean crew redundancy, simply a requirement to not replace those that leave.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Well that sounds a bit more positive, I just wish I could allow myself to believe it 100%. I guess the end of the IFBTs has unsettled me and seeing what has happened elsewhere. Pray to God I can afford to stay as I'm a single parent and apart from my children, Virgin is my life, I am so happy there and couldnt face leaving.

[magicE]

This getting rid of Fsm's rumour is great.:ugh: I think i'm right in saying that you have to make the job redundant and not the person in which case if you had a css now "in Charge", that would be the same as having an fsm, just called different which i think is illegal. Its not gonna happen so stop making this S$&T up!!!! It does nobody any favours and will end up making it a crap place to work, if it isnt already.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I see what you are saying, and sorry to ask so many questions, but hopefully from my above post you will see why.
If that is the case, how come it happened at Air NZ?, or naturally do they have different rules to this country? Its just that Air NZ crew live in this country so are they governed by us or NZ?
Sorry so dense, just realistically worried at the mo:confused:

[virginracer]

FSM position is going, Rubbish!! All of us FSM's got the email from P/A to say that is not the case so end of story.

GFM is rife at the moment not just here at Virgin but with every airline. EOS has just gone bust which makes about five airlines recently, so i would say every airline in the world is probably trying ways to cut costs and to survive.

What i do find strange here at Virgin, is that every time we get new managers in we try to get them fired before they've even been given a chance to sort things out. Yes we have had some s--t Managers and they have all gone one way or another, so lets give this new one some time to make a difference he has only been here a short while, and if he doesn't then he will be shot out the door just like the others. Don't forget he has loads of issues to address, which the previous LM left him with!!

Don't forget the great thing about Virgin is us the staff, i think there may be tough times ahead but if we all stick together and do what we are good at we will be here for the Long Haul.:ok:

[pokergirl]

Good post virginracer. :ok: I got the email also, i just would have liked the same email to be out on ifly for the rest of the crew to see this, and that would put the rumours to rest. There is so much negatitvity anyway when you go to work, we or the passengers dont need this. I was impressed with PA, during the managers meeting and actually felt for the first time in ten years with virgin that he talked to us as adults and managers rather than being talked him talking at us like children.

[blondechick]

I've just read the thread and as New crew am getting really worried bout what you are all saying FSM's are soo important in the running of the aircraft. And is the rummor bout last in first out true?? :confused: am very worried

[virginracer]

blondechick,

Thanks for your words, but don't worry it is all total rubbish!! Us FSM's are going nowhere Virgin have said so in an email to every FSM from our boss ( PA )

keep the faith!!! :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Relax:)

When Virgin made redundancies after 9/11 it went on a last in first out basis. However many crew took voluntary which meant that approx 113 crew were given compulsory, when it could have been so many more.
There are absolutely NO TALKS/PLANS to make anyone reduntant. There is of course the rumour of FSM, which is why I asked the question "Is this because of the threatened strike?", if so then us old timers would naturally prefer it if the newbies went before us. However, that was simply a hyperthetical question and there are absolutely no grounds to base that rumour on.
Look at this thread for example. 50% believe we'll stay and 50% think we'll get shafted. But thats all it is, speculation.

I'm actually swaying now to thought that we will stay. If all a crew member can earn at VAA is a CSSs wage, then thats not going to inspire anyone and crew simply wont stay, so getting rid of the FSM (as well as many more reasons) would be plain stupid.

Anyway, try not to worry. yes, trying times are ahead but we did make our 7% profit this year, so for now we're staying in business.

Enjoy;)

[stowaway]

Dear Sign it to your room.

You say that if crew could only aspire to the CSS salary then not many would stay. That already seems to be the case.
Even with the FSM, what percentage of crew recruited actually reach that lofty rank?
It would be interesting to compare the Virgin cabin crew turnover (someone quoted 16 months) with other airlines.
Regards.
Stowaway

[virginracer]

When i started thirteen years ago there was no fast tracking or performance monitoring, also at that time my course was the last recruited for about a year, getting through the ranks is of course what i wanted to do but then i had to wait my turn, it was all about seniority back then so i was down the back nearly four years, luckily for me things then speeded up due to expansion and promotion became a lot quicker, i have to say it was good grounding spending all that time down the back, people now are in such a hurry to get up the front and some which do manage it are not always the best due to lack of experience. If what Virgin say is correct and no expansion for the next three years then promotion for all may be very slow. Us FSM's are going nowhere period!!!

As to the numbers leaving as i have said on here before it is hardly any different now to years ago, the big difference being that we now have nearly 5000 crew so it just seems like more are leaving, there has always been a steady amount leaving one training course per week has been the same for years, OK we sometimes have had two per week but only when expanding or to boost numbers when Virgin have got there crew members needed numbers wrong. :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Dear Stowaway,
Thank you in the first instance of being polite.
Its not a lofty rank, many do make it and i think right now we have about 400? lol!:8
But I can tell you that had £18k been all that I could earn then I think I would have learned a language and moved to BA! I know £25k plus the rest isnt a huge amount more, but to me it makes all the difference.
Becoming an IFS (as it was then) was all I ever wanted from the day I joined VAA, and I still pinch myself now after all these years.
Sad I know, but so true:8

Edited to say: Didnt really answer your question did I? Hmmmmmmmm need more time to think, but maybe the few FSMs that we do have just prove the point that we dont pay them enough and that more would stay if we did, so dont lose the rank!:confused:

[teemok]

Virgin racer........ another manager on the forum?

[VIRGIN CSS]

FYI teemok
Yes Virgin racer is a manager! An FSM which incase you did not know means Flight Service MANAGER! Which is the head of the OBM team Onboard Managers Team which also includes CSS's Cabin Service Supervisor!

Maybe thats why your not either of those because you don't fully understand the rank structure onboard the A/C and that we do have a manager onboard. Or it could mean that you don't have any respect for the OBM team as you don't see them as managers. Either way you have a problem.

[4engines4longhaul]

I am not a manager either. Just a line Captain

[Shaka Zulu]

That means that a FSM is not the head of the OBM, since the Captain is ultimately responsible for the service delivered onboard and so he assumes that position by way of rank structure.

[virginracer]

teemok,
you are the exact kind of person i was talking about in one of the previous posts, somebody who wants to be running the show before you can even walk, that said I'm not sure what rank you are.

Let me tell you i am not a manager apart from an FSM on-board, and i will go as far to say i think I'm a pretty good FSM, i would also say that on many flights I do nearly all of my crew would be getting off thinking that is the kind of FSM i would like to be one day, yes I'm sure there are better FSM's but if i didn't think i was any good i wouldn't be here.

Just to add if you are really clever you might be able to figure out who i am!! I am flying tomorrow and looking forward to a great trip!!

teemok get your facts correct before throwing the normal he must be a manager line!! idiot :D

[Digitalis]

It's a shame that so many cabin crew are so gullible, because it means that people like teemok can easily cause chaos with their unfounded speculation and rumourmongering.

The role of the onboard service manager will always exist so long as passenger aircraft carry cabin crew. The title in individual airlines may be different - and may change in any given airline, as it has in Virgin (from In-Flight Supervisor to Flight Service Manager). Someone has to be responsible for the conduct and organisation of the cabin crew onboard, with authority (delegated by law from the Captain) to take whatever measures necessary to ensure the safety of the passengers, crew and aircraft. That role cannot, and will not, be made redundant. Therefore there can be no 'plan' to remove FSM's from the aircraft. Period.

The total number of crew on board can be reduced; the number of mid-ranking crew (CSSs) can be reduced, but someone has to be in charge. That is the FSM - or whatever other title the airline wishes to use.
Ignore teemok. He or she is a troublemaking troll.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Ever the voice of reason!
Thank the Lord and thank you.

That made perfect sense and made me say out loud "oh yes, of course!"

Feeling somewhat happier now:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[glamourgirl!]

well thats a bit of a contradiction making css/fsm's redundant and also considering taking on people from outside as css/fsm's.

what a load of old s%*t !

[Digitalis]

strikertworedshoes you'll remember that at the end of the rather nasty episode back in January the Union and the Company agreed to enter further discussions about the whole cabin crew situation. Since then, the rapid rise of oil prices (and thus the cost of fuel - our biggest bill) and the pressures on the whole world's economy (which reduces passengers' ability to spend on air travel) have conspired to make making a profit a lot more difficult - and, without making a profit, an airline cannot survive.

Hence there will be some intense discussions going on about how to reduce costs. Staffing is the next largest cost after fuel, so there will be lots of 'what if...?' type discussions going on within the Company - and the Union. One of the 'what ifs..?' will be, 'what if we reduce the number of CSS positions on the aircraft?' - and also, 'what if we reduce the number of cabin crew on the aircraft?'. On top of that, there will be, 'what if we reduce the number of office staff/check-in staff/engineers/what-have-you?', coupled with seeking ideas for replacing people with automation (like internet check-in) wherever possible. Inevitably, some of these ideas and discussions will get leaked - and some will be dreamt up by inveterate Galley FM broadcasters.

The fact that you've heard something doesn't mean it's true, as you should remember from the strike period. Ideas for cutting costs are being talked about. Most won't get actioned, but some will. Which ones? We can't know that until the Company makes the appropriate announcements. All you can do, for now, is wait and see.

[joeflyguy]

Actually digitalis you MAY be far from the truth...

Am based in New Zealand so not sure what UK laws apply, but the same laws did apply to the UK based FSM's.

The can make the job redundant. What can then happen is the role can be made available to the CSS, as a slightly different role, paying a remarkably different income.

We all know that they would be doing essentially exactly the same role, but in light of the position most major carriers find themselves in at the moment if they can get away with something like this, to reduce costs, they will.

They will not be doing away with an onboard manager role, they will simply transfer that role, rename it, and pay it substantially less. That is what has happened here in NZ.

Though the old managers, ISD's, were not getting anwhere near the $115k that korukid suggested.