Has the Metro had its Day in Oz?

[TopTup]

In light of devasting recent events, as well as others thoughout it's relative short history in Oz, has the Metro outlast it's use or purpose? I decided to put something here as I was pretty upset at the cruel & insensitive issues raised in the thread about the recent accident. I think here is the place. If not, then please modertators remove it as I desperately wish not to offend. I too had / have close links to Airtex.

I did my stint on the machine finishing with about 3500 hrs on type (Metro II's, III's and 23's). Freight and RPT. I learnt a lot and scared myself many times in those first 500 or so hrs doing the single pilot stuff. But hey, you can do that in any aircraft. The Metro is just "different" I suppose.

With this "pilot shortage" I know of training Capts with perhaps 100 hrs TT as PIC instructing others. Some of the guys who taught me were and are in my biassed opinion some of the best Metro guys going. I was lucky.

I know from experience (RAMP checks!) that CASA hate them. That also has a lot to do with some operators, I assume. And I've experience a few of them as well.... "Go on, you can take that extra 250 kgs"...."You don't need 60 mins, you always get in"...."Shut up and fly it. You can ground it when you get home", just to quote a few.... Having said that I've also had the priviledge to fly the Metro for some damn decent owners, CP's and engineers.

Passengers hate them already. But a 1900 costs so much more to run, apparently. (Anyone with facts & figures?)

Yes you can fly a Metro (> 5700kgs) with a CPL. There is an exemption.

Yes you can fly the Metro single pilot WITH a "serviceable" autopilot (refer to above point regarding some operators though who would pressure you otherwise.)

For passenger ops (charter & RPT) 2 x pilots are needed as per the regs and no autopilot is needed.

No flight attendant required due 19 seats max.

So, what now for Metro?

[triathlon]

it will continue to operate bud. if a 737 goes in is it the end for it as well?

[Jabawocky]

To quote a recently retired CASA flying ops man

There is nothing nice about a Metro

About says it all:uhoh:

J:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

In light of devasting recent events, as well as others thoughout it's relative short history in Oz

Such as?

1) We don't know what happened to the aircraft that crashed this week.

2) You can hardly blame Lochart R on the aircraft.

3) Tamworth prang? Night assymetric training accident?

4) Emerald prang - can't remember the cause. Pilot error? Perhaps contributed to by "different" systems?

Other Metro prangs?

Dr :8

[KRUSTY 34]

TopTup:

Mate, what a well said and thought out post.

I did 2000 hours on the beasts, and whilst I enjoyed my time, they certainly had their moments. I don't know if you recall some years ago that they were subject to a speed restriction due to a possible fault in the rear stabiliser. I'm not sure now whether it applied to all metro's or just the late model 23's that we flew.

Apparently the fault could cause the all moving stabiliser to go fully down under airloads! This would impart a severe upwards trim that elevator control alone may not be able to overcome. One such incident occured in China and resulted in the loss of the aircraft. Another happened to a North American operator "Bearskin Airlines" (gotta love the name) and the aircraft was recovered, but only with great skill and difficulty on the part of the crew.

CASA's fix to the problem was to limit the KIAS to no more than VMM! This speed was approximately 180 KIAS reducing to around 160 KIAS at lower weights! The theory being of course that if a severe pitch up occured, then the aircraft would stall before something broke. I wrote a letter to our fleet manager expressing my concern over the situation. I pointed out that if the fault occured on final approach (as in the case of the Bearskin incident), and the crew were not quick or skilled enough, then the wings would probably not come off as a result of a stall. They would most definately come off however after hitting the ground at the completion of the resultant loss of control. Nothing was done of course, and we continued to fly them in this manner for more than a year! If it was up to me I would have grounded the bloody things there and then.

Now I'm not saying that this latest tragedy had anything to do with the above scenerio, but there was also the fatal accident in NZ a few years ago. Again, Have the authorities done anything to address that problem.

IMHO, I reckon they have just about passed their use by date.

[illusion]

There is nothing wrong with the Metro ( other than it is a xxxxbox) - what is wrong is the segment of the industry in which it operates.

Crew experience levels
Lack of proper endorsment and recurrent training- TW, LHR
Crews move on at first progression opportunity
How many of the operators regularly utilise the sim in ML?
Poor maintenace control and experience levels on type
extreme commercial pressures to go outside the square etc etc etc

Note that this is NOT a comment on the unfortunate Sydney events.

[Spotlight]

My opinion!

The Department should never have allowed and should not continue to allow the Metro to be operated single pilot.

It is a mockery of all that is understood regarding checklists, action response etc. Of coarse it can be done but that doesn't make it right.

Much safer also to have new pilots spend some time in the right seat. Future Captains.

About the only thing we know about the Sydney accident so far is that the pilot had some sort of a situation that he was trying to cope with by himself.

[Spotlight]

Also. A forgotten fact is that the reason the above 5700kg Metros's can be flown with a CPL came about because of a QLD operators cozy relationship at the time, with the local office.

Nothing to do with a shortage of qualified pilots. No, all about not paying the Award component for the senior licence.

[18-Wheeler]

There is nothing wrong with the Metro ( other than it is a xxxxbox) - what is wrong is the segment of the industry in which it operates.

Crew experience levels
Lack of proper endorsment and recurrent training- TW, LHR
Crews move on at first progression opportunity
How many of the operators regularly utilise the sim in ML?
Poor maintenace control and experience levels on type
extreme commercial pressures to go outside the square etc etc etc

Note that this is NOT a comment on the unfortunate Sydney events.

I totally agree.



The Department should never have allowed and should not continue to allow the Metro to be operated single pilot.

I did it for years and had no problems. Nothin' special about me.



(and for those that know me, I'm doing it again from next month onwards. Quit the overseas job and the one in Sydney, and I'm back with Pel Air on the M3's ....)

[captwawa]

There is nothing wrong with the machine, it has served many a pilot well for a long time. We don't know what happened in the latest accident and we would be foolish to has it a guess that the aircraft was responsible or any other circumstance. There is an industry wide problem that is arising no matter what type of aircraft is being flown and that is the dilution of training. When you have training captains that have little experience on the machine they are passing down their inexperience to the people they train who possibly will be become the next training captain. Without the aid of simulators on certain aircraft it is impossible to train properly for every scenario and that is where the experienced trainers come into their own as they have seen a lot of the scenarios in real life. Don't get me wrong their are a lot of experienced trainers out there and they do a great job and my hat goes off to them, however they will move on because of their experience leaving a big void in this industry.

[LeadSled]

Folks,

4) Emerald prang - can't remember the cause.

Nothing wrong with the aeroplane, just failed to maintain a positive ROC after takeoff at night. Pilot was an old mate of mine, with a quite incredible record of walking away from write-offs.

Tootle pip!!

PS:thoughout it's relative short history in Oz

What constitutes a "long" history, 20+ years, 30+ years, the Emerald prang was Bush Pilots Airways, that is a lot of years ago.

[Spotlight]

Leadsled

Power settings also from memory. i.e Not enough!

[TopTup]

"Short time" was referring to since its initial introduction by a well known operator that by a previous name recently went bust.

In my initial post I deliberately did not mention accidents or incidents and their attributable blame. Pilot error coupled poorly maintained aircraft, and then add demanding and threatening pressures from your boss, plus poor training and this will lead to those Swiss cheese slices lining up pretty damn quick. The Metro is a very unforgiving aircraft, in my opinion. Some aircraft perform better than others assymetrically, as well as in other configs.....

The Metro served me well for years and after getting to grips with I actually also enjoyed flying it. But that is not what my point is for this thread.

It's single engine performance in a go-around is at best marginal. The amount of times I or the examiner took back the simulated failed engine in a base check are more than a few. Nearly torque rolled a few times as well. (Now lets not get into pilot technique, please.......Save it for another thread.) Some may say part of the job and a competent pilot should know the signs and recover. Again, I'm lucky to be taught from, in my opinion, some of the best. In today's environment I do not see that happening as much.

I'm a better pilot for flying it but would not want to go back to it. (I'm happy in an air conditioned cockpit and a button that makes coffee magically appear!)

Perception is reality for the traveling public and those who hire it / lease it for freight, etc. That is another main point of my thread. The amount of Metros I've seen with a shiney new paint job but bucket or rust and cr@p beneath the cowls astounds me. The pax / paying customer only sees the paint job.

(For the record I agree with 18 Wheeler and ForkTailedDrKiller, but those matters are not what I am getting at, that's all).

To answer the above question regarding why 2 x crew required for pax ops and 1 pilot for freight is simple: passengers. The 2nd pilot is there to also act as passenger support / assistance in normal and non-normal scenarios. Believe it or not. If I'm wrong, please correct me but that has always been my understanding.

[BAe32EP-Chief]

I remember flying in a metro III from a northern operator, our transport went tech 18 guys with heavily laid bags in the back. It was tight, hot and stuffy and a terrible stench of BO.......... [4days in the bush doing survivial ops] **before anyone ask's I have a very varied background!Too that day I vowed to never fly in a metro is I can help it. I have the 1900D operating costs but even the lease costsMetro 23 AUD$27,500Beech 1900D AUD$37,500$10k monthly difference! already

[Dog One]

The last Metro accident, from a world wide data base, was Feb 2006. Lots of hours flown since then by Metro operators world wide. I found the Metro a challenging aircraft to fly, but once mastered, there were few surprises. There appears to be a problem with recurrent training now, as the experience base is declining as people move on to larger aircraft. Low experience trainers means the overall proficiency level of an organisation is lower. I remember the ATSB report on a training incident in Canberra, where, through lack of knowledge of the systems, the aircraft was put into jeopardy.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

But what are the alternatives - who's building 19-seaters anymore?

What are you going to replace all the Metros with? Slightly younger but USED B1900Ds? USED J32s? Or maybe step up to USED Saab 340s or Brasilias? I hear they've restarted production of the Twotter...:}

I think I read in Australian Aviation a few months ago that none of the manufacturers (Embraer, Beech/Raytheon, ATR etc) want to develop a new 19-seater yet because the technology isn't there yet to give sufficient efficiency gains to justify buying new aircraft, and because there are no airlines worldwide operating a large enough legacy fleet to want to be a launch customer and thus underwrite its development.

[Stationair8]

The old Metro will still be flying in Australia for years to come.

[chimbu warrior]

Top tup, I don't think 30 years is a "short time".

If you are in jail or married (same thing) it is a very long time!

[bushy]

The aviation industry is cannibalistic. Like many things in nature, the big ones eat up the little ones. The Metro operators have swallowed up many of the Chieftain operators, and the bigger ones will swallow up many of the Metro operators.
The Metro and the Chieftain will be here for quite a while yet.
Until a better machine comes along.
However the Chieftain, the Caravan, or PC12, or other aircraft with a crew door are more suitable for carrying freight. I have seen pilots in aeroplanes with a lot of freight loaded behind them that would make exit from the aeroplane almost impossible. And someone else has to close the door. I would feel most uncomfortable about that situation.

[Stationair8]

Pretty valid point about the crew door Bushy, not a nice feeling watching a Navajo/Conquest/Qieenair get loaded with freight while the pilot is strapped in and somebody else shuts the door.

[porch monkey]

Queenair with a crew door was one of the best freighters I ever flew.

[gaunty]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::rolleyes::{

[kimwestt]

Couln't agree with you more - the Metro, once comfortable with the aircraft, is quite good to operate/fly. Yep, the assymetric go round performance can be left wanting, but if you play around with the speeds a little bit, it will perform. The sad lack of experienced captains for training and ICUS work is showing already, with 800 hr raw pilots being endorsed on Metros, and those same pilots then being used to conduct ICUS operations. How in the hell are those guys going to impart any meaningful knowledge to another newbie?
The electrical system is a nightmare to the uninitiated, even then, is still a nightmare. Some say it mirrors a DC10's systems. Very high loads on the ailerons at speed. Apply bank, count ten, and - lo and behold - the thing starts to bank/turn.
Basically, I found, it is a numbers aircraft, operate to the numbers, and it won't bite you.
There appears (is) a vast discrepancy between QLD and SY basin CASA operating requirements, which doesn't help when drawing comparisons between operations either.
With a good Auto Pilot, it is a comfortable single pilot aircraft in any application. The only requirement for a second pilot in Chtr ops is if there is 15 or more pax. The second crew member can be either cabin attendant or a safety pilot.:):)
Eithe way, the Metro will be here for quite a while yet.

[Jet_A_Knight]

It's not just the aeroplane.

It's the big-picture SA that needs to go with it.

And that comes from flying experience.

However, I am told that experience is not important to these operations because in Europe, a turboprop is usually someone's first job.:rolleyes:

[MCKES]

However, I am told that experience is not important to these operations because in Europe, a turboprop is usually someone's first job.

In Europe there is no problem with low time pilots as they are well trained in the sim etc. Here sadly it is not so, I think the answer to training is a cross between the new MPL and the current CPL training. This would mean there is a major part of the training conducted in a simulator of the aircraft type that the trainee will be progressing on to, but still maintain the 150-200 hours of "real" flying in the course.

Could help.:ok:

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

I only know one working Metro pilot, but from conversations I have had with him it would appear that he was given very comprehensive training in a sim and very thorough induction to the "real" aircraft. Perhaps not the norm (?), but he does fly for a large operator of the type.

GG

[GANKER]

I had no sim training and was let loose single pilot with the metro being my first turbo prop! It was a steep learning curve and I have a few extra grey hairs because of it. I enjoyed flying It and was warned before I started flying it that it wasnt a pilot friendly A/C. Not having anything to compare it to in respects of turbo props I found it OK to operate and very reliable.
what seems to be casa's problem with it? Why do they hate it?
Being a metro dog has served me well in my aviation career and I am glad I flew it. In some ways I miss it. Would I trade my push a button for coffee job for it? No but it certainly beat bashing round in a cheiftain covered in ice.
Living the dream!

[18-Wheeler]

The electrical system is a nightmare to the uninitiated, even then, is still a nightmare.

Apart from the fact that it's actually pretty simple and reliable.

[Defenestrator]

Couldn't agree with you more 18-Wheeler.

Actually for mine the M3/23 was a relatively easy aircraft to operate given correct training and some diligence on the part of the pilot/s, no different to most other types. Single engine performance was good as long as correct technique was observed (speaking from much experience simulated and a little actual). Anyone that has flown the type will tell you that their IF skills were never as good as they were when they were flying the Metro. It's been the backbone of profits for many a company over the years and a fine introduction to pressurised, turbine and mostly multi-crew ops for many an aspiring airline pilot.

We could get into the virtues of FAR 23 versus FAR 25 certified aircraft but that would indeed open another can of worms. :E

D:ok:

[airman1]

Has anyone had any problems with trimming the Metro's?? I was talking to an ex metro pilot today and he spoke of several occasions when the stableliser just ran away trimming up and down!!!!

They apparently have a magnetic clamp, which moves the connecting rod attached to elevator, which burn out often??

Has anyone else had similar problems??

[TopTup]

Spotlight...apologies. We're all a genius in hindsight and perhaps an over-reaction on my behalf. Just hate the have a dig before contributing issue on this web site and maybe took it out on you. Will remove my post.....

The Metro electrical system? It reflects is age and development. Understand it to troubleshoot it. Used to fly with a spare current limiter in the pilot's side pocket. That's why the 23 went to 400 amps (??) instead of the 325 amp current limiter....Never had to use it, luckily.

The trim? Had hassles once. It is a jack screw mechanism. The problem I had was a microswitch. Get up on a ladder when able and feel the stab and fin. Sturdy is not a word I would use. Then you'll hopefully appreciate why it's not a good idea to side slip a Metro (plus wing design, plus power available v power required behind the drag curve.....)

IT'S NOT THE MACHINE.

It is (in my opinion only) the no morals operators, the poor training (problem based learning at its best), the place it fills in GA (that includes the "airlines" in GA), the pressures placed on low time, low expereinced pilots (of which I was once one), and the lack of aggresive implemenation of the rules by the CASA that it is meant to so veremently stand for. I have been approached more than once to dob in a Metro operator. Fact. I refused to. On each occasion the request was met with the reply it deserved.

So, when these issues, in my opinion, are stacked up against "it" things need to change. That is why I question whether the Metro still has a place in today's environment.

And yes, it is a case of not solving the systemic issues. But when these systemic isssues run so deep it may be "easier" to remove one of the Swiss cheese slices than the other ones behind it. Will it happen? No. But hey, this is just a chat site to air some ideas and opinions.......

[Centaurus]

Over the past 12 months have been heavily involved in simulator training of pilots going into the majors. The majority of these pilots have flown Metros or are currently on them. It might be sheer coincidence but the stories they tell of Metro unserviceabilities is alarming. Most have not reported these defects for fear of being labelled trouble maker. A few of the pilots simply refused to fly and walked off the job to unemployment rather than risk their necks. A common complaint is the repeated unserviceability of radar leading to thunderstorm encounters. Damaged radomes, water entering the radar through crook seals or cracks in the radome reveal a sad state of maintenance compounded by reluctance to report things. This indicates the scheduled maintenance is being short cut or avoided and bugger the consequences for the flight crew. It is all anecdotal but there are too many of these stories to be lies. I am sure similar stories are available from those that fly other freight dog types but one hears very little of active CASA interest or airworthiness investigation in Metro ops.

[Stationair8]

And one wonders what CASA are doing about aircraft flying about u/s weather radar? Probably 3/10ths of feek all.

Most CASA FOI's wouldn't know a Metro if it bit them on the arse.

You have to look at the problems caused by a certain FOI from CASA and the company that he looked after in the mid 90's in NSW.

RIP the two blokes killed in VH-NEJ.

[TopTup]

Exactly.....

It's a case of eyes wide shut. I just think that the issues raised here are so prevalent yet those who are meant to be in the know and take the action choose not to, for any reason. When something happens it will be knee jerk and too bloody late.

Centaurus, I can varify what you state to be true. I walked because of such issues. Now, I can guarantee you I'm not the smartest bloke in the world, so why does the CASA not know or act? I have seen and heard of Metro pilots at the Ansett sim in Melbourne being "forced" to pass, ie patterns repeated over and over again for an IFR renewal when it is actaully wrong to do so. I was told to "Shut up. We're short of pilots and can't afford one offline."

Ramp inspections? Ha! If they wanted they could check the real issues instead of writing a compliance notice for oil on the oleos. Pathetic. Have a look at some of the freighters taxiing as the nose gear almost bounces up & down due the who gives a damn loading techniques.

I've seen more than one pilot sacked via dubious means due correctly insisting on writing MEL's or not being a "company man".

Staionair8: there is no requirement for a wx radar on Metros for freight ops. Sad but true. It's back to WWII ADF use!

So again, will anything be done? Hell no. That's why I got out. Those who choose to stay in such circumstances know exactly what they are (not) doing and those who don't get it yet are the most dangerous as they are naiive through inexperience or agree to "play the game".

Russian Roulette.

[Stationair8]

The WX radar must be in the CASA approved MEL list, but if you speak to the right CASA people we won't need that for night freight!!

I know a number of guys that have flown Metro's II/111/23 single pilot on night freight and a lot of them don't actually do their IFR renewal in the Metro but go off and do it in a Duchess etc with an ATO.

[Spotlight]

Top Tup

Will also remove offending posts.

I must admit to surprise that weather radar is not mandatory in the Metro class of operation if storms are forecast or there is a probability.

On aft loaded Metro's. Of those I've seen a few.

Well, things have to be done properly and the only person who really understands the operation is the pilot and when there are two, things are more exact.

[tinpis]

Night freighter crashes Sydney


Crikey, twenty threes years ago (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1985/AAIR/aair198502557.aspx)
RIP Luigi and Owey

[scoe]

To all the knockers, Given a situation where training is sound, Mentoring and checking, is of a high standard and proper maintenance is provided by reputable operators, then the Metro is in fact a great place for the budding airline pilot to spend some time in the right hand seat cut thier teeth and perhaps move to the left seat with confidence

Its fast, forgiving, and below 10,000 @ (248kts) when operated properly with sound SOPs is a great stepping stone to jets with similar speed to 737 profiles below 10.000

Unfortunately due to the accessibility of this category of aircraft within the budget of some lessser operators it can result in poor training, basic endorsements poor understanding of systems, and less than adequate maintenance. In which case i would agree it is an awful plane to fly especially single Pilot

I have over 3000 hours on type and still current and I am not the slightest bit intereted in operating the aircraft single pilot,
I refer to some comments regarding single engine performance, If the aircraft is configured to the approriate configuration for the situation as quickly as possible then it will get you where you want to go safely. I would not however like to be in that situation single pilot at night in IMC there is too much to do if you want to do it clearly methodically and safely auto pilot or not!

There is nothing better than to have a friendly voice sitting next to you watching your ar####s when the sh###t hits the fan.

I would suggest those persons who complain about the systems on the Metro learn more about them and they will find they are not so bad or disimilar to current jets, bear in mind a 737 300 is only about 2-3 years younger than some of the Metros flying today, same technology.

Just my bit but dont knock the Metro till youve tried it and if you have tried it think where it got you

[tinpis]

Back in the good old days.
I can tell you of a C402a on night freight that had no nav-aids working save for an ADF that would show station passage if you passed over it....
No auto pilot of course there was just a hole...and the port engine couldnt be throttled back more than halfway on approach or it would have shaken out of its mounting
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run. :uhoh:

[Stationair8]

Look at the positves Tinnpis, it was night multi-command in the logbook!

If you were flying a C402A it would have been a new aircraft.

And young Ppruners when Tinnpis flew C402A's men were men, boys were boys and poofs were something you put feet up on after a hard day at work.

After flying all night they then came home and washed the aircraft so that it was in pristine condition, and all for a wage of 2/6 a week.

[cac_sabre]

After flying all night they then came home and washed the aircraft so that it was in pristine condition, and all for a wage of 2/6 a week.
.......then they would arrange the props in a neat and eye-pleasing manner (20 to 2) look lustily back at the aircraft before going off for an ale.... seen this ritual from the tower many times!

[Stationair8]

Forgot that bit, but they would have also cleaned the windows, crossed the seatbelts and fixed up the curtains.

[TopTup]

The Metro carries more pax & freight than other said aircraft with worse records. And those aircraft are not in the same category.... This thread is about the Metro and it's operation. How, by who and maybe even when. Let's not compare apples with oranges. (Although, sometimes it is apt).

The systems are not bad. As in one of my previous posts regarding the electrical system, know the (ANY!) system to know how to competantly trouble shoot and best utilise it.

So in my opinion the many other factors raised that exist behind the Metro's use need to be scutinised, especially in view of the roll it fills in Oz.

Drink driving yourself home does not make you safe. You got lucky.

Do not confuse luck with safe.

[tinpis]

Same mob different aircraft
Doing pax shuttles to beautiful Kangaroo Is in a 310
Arrives in circuit area ...whoops de wheels is a no show item after selecting DOWN
:hmm: hmmm contacts company on VHF....Oh yes thats been playing up for a while now just keep selecting and it will fix itself up......oh ..oh.. and by the way leave them down for your return
lo and behold the gear finally goes green and we land
Fill up with pax and off we go back to ADL wheels down
On arrival
"You got about another 4 trips just leave the wheels down"
OK after all this have a look under the 310
F@RK ME !
Theres a gear door MISSING
Tells CP I never went to fast I didnt think...
He says "Nah what sorta DI did you do this morning, that doors been missing for the last 3 years"

[tinpis]

Same company but now not working for them....
Absolutely pissing rain at POrt Agutter huge puddle on taxi way joining the runway
Me thinks well I not gonna tax thru that
STAND BACK ! Macho CP of before mentioned mob attacks puddle in PA 31 full of punters
PA 31 hits puddle at speed , nosewheel and bulkhead collapse under floor of aircraft

Passengers all looking out windows :eek: :uhoh: :ooh: :confused: :D

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughpound.gif

[Stationair8]

Metro ground schools range from one day to seven days.

The one I did lasted seven days, and I found one needed to do plenty of study after hours to keep on the ball.

The electrical system was no drama, if you were taken through the system thoroughly and explained the basics and draw the diagram each time.

Dunno how the ground school could be compressed into a day and still be CASA approved!!

For a lot of people the Metro was their first turbine aircraft, first pressurised aircraft, first multi-crew aircraft, first aircraft above 5700kgs, probably first time they had flown above 10,000', first time they had seen a weather radar, first airline job and fisrt gig flying from the Right hand seat.

Lots to learn in the ground school.

[tinpis]

Imagine if the aforementioned mob hadda got their hands on a METRO?

[sms777]

OK, back to the Metro's.
I have never flown one, never really wanted to.(too damn noisy...)
I have been watching this thread with interest though. Somebody mentioned incorrect aft loading could cause the fuselage bend so you can not close rear cargo door( What the...?????).
Can someone more experienced on type tell me what would happen if the aircraft was loaded slightly outside forward CofG and what effect would that have if sudden loss of one engine on climb out? Which one is the critical engine and how would one handle the situation single handed in IMC? Maybe this would shed some light to what happened to the one lost out of Sydney recently.(just a hint):sad:

[Centaurus]

and the port engine couldnt be throttled back more than halfway on approach or it would have shaken out of its mounting
Used that way night after night on ADL -MEL run

Of course you snagged it in the maintenance release every time it happened - didn't you, didn't you?

[Metro man]

You need to have both doors closed to taxi, structural requirement. Yes the fuselage can bend slightly so that you can't lock the rear door, usually solved by getting a loader to get underneath and try to lift up the door area.

If heavily loaded with general freight, almost impossible to go out of foward c of g. Not too hard to go out of rear c of g with bulky freight where the aircraft is packed front to back, floor to ceiling. Then it's very twitchy on the elevator, flew one like that one night very uncomfortable two hours. Yes we had done a loadsheet but it soon became obvious the load plan we had been given was incorrect.

Remember this is an 6.8 ton turboprop which requires a stick shaker AND a stick pusher. Tells you something about the stall characteristics :uhoh:

[tinpis]

Centaurus

You dont know what you missed mate...

Of course you snagged it in the maintenance release every time it happened - didn't you, didn't you?

One outfit I had the misfortune to work a week for didnt have the MR in the A/c but instead had the beaut idea of putting a notebook onboard for the pilots to scribble in.
The sight of the CP running around with a fistful of MR's trying to replace them on an unexpected ramp check was priceless :E

[roger_ramjet]

The Metro is a great aircraft and does its job in the industry very well - carrying 2.4 tonnes of freight burning 600lbs/hr at 255ktas.

The trouble is that it is not getting any younger and there seems to be no easy or direct replacement. The younger passenger metro 23's getting around (i.e. the ones in the west with blue tails, or the ex Rex ones) are still in reasonably good nick, but the 35000hr freighters are looking very sad indeed last time I strapped in. I've come across cracked main wing spars, landing gear that snaps on taxi, avionics that don't work and hydraulics that self-flush after each landing... Now, I'm not having a go at maintenance as I've spoken to the blokes at the coal face and they say they are doing all they can, I've even had them in the right hand seat in flight shaking their heads looking at the engine instruments...

Look after the plane and it should look after you, know your systems, do thorough pre-flights, write up snags and trends so the ginger beers have some idea how the old girl is going. And here endeth the sermon...

[Jet_A_Knight]

If heavily loaded with general freight, almost impossible to go out of foward c of g. Not too hard to go out of rear c of g with bulky freight where the aircraft is packed front to back, floor to ceiling. Then it's very twitchy on the elevator, flew one like that one night very uncomfortable two hours. Yes we had done a loadsheet but it soon became obvious the load plan we had been given was incorrect.

Personally, I always found this issue to be the biggest problem with operating the Metro freighters. You have to watch the loading like a hawk in many cases. There had been numerous occasions when I asked for the load to be re-distributed and I got sideways looks and comments like "Why? That's how we've always loaded these things'. :ugh::ugh:

In all fairness, I suppose they missed the nose oleo being fully extended and the tail stand starting to bend:rolleyes:

Having said that, the main client whose freight we shifted did make the effort to adjust the freight whenever the pilot was unhappy with the way the loading was going - and the guy who did the load control for Gerry's newspaper runs had a system that placed sufficient bundles in all the right places to keep the aeroplane within Cof G limits - but generally, load control and a general lack of a solid, consistently accurate loading system was something to contend with on a regular basis, especially at 'out ports' .

I am not saying this was the cases in the recent accident - but it would not surprise me if it was a contributing factor.

Remember this is an 6.8 ton turboprop which requires a stick shaker AND a stick pusher. Tells you something about the stall characteristics

As far as I know, these systems were on the aircraft for SFAR41 certification reasons.



P.S I'm surprised no one has brought up fuel leaks, sorry, seeps.

[TopTup]

Rojer R.....you are 100% right If all those things you mention actaully happen. The fact is THEY DON'T.

That is the point of this thread.

As in previous posts, I have flown some piles of cr@p and also some beautifully maintained Metros. The difference? The boss and the standards set and expected. Some standards are to get there at any cost & don't write up a goddam thing! Regulary bust F&D's, cut corners, overload.... Phone it in instead and we might do something. But then you're labelled a trouble maker and not a company man. Others give you a rear end kicking if you do not write something up, clean the cabin, cross the seatbelts....

Loading? As touched on also earlier, not a problem "IF" done properly. Multi sector runs where freight is simply being moved from bays 5, then 4, 3, etc leaving a couple of hundred kgs only in 1 & 2 aint pretty. Ask the untrained loaders to move freight aft or redo the distribution, yeah, good luck. So, do it yourself.

SMS777: As per any aircraft loaded outside the fwd (or aft) limit results in single engine perf not "guaranteed". Now with the Metro often being W.A.T. limited, this is not a pretty picture. As to technique, same as many aircraft. Know how and why, just like any system or method of operation. Take away that requirement of being properly loaded and you are going in one direction only, especially MTOW in hot & high regions.

I'll state it again. It is not the machine. It is the factors behind its use and the CASA's attitude of placing their head in the sand.

[Stationair8]

Would you put your faith in some unskilled rock ape loading your aircraft?

The old TNT Tonne is still a done thing?



Casa they will get around to it one day, next week or someday, but then again its night freight and its night time so that poses lots of problem getting people out to do ramp checks etc, so we will just turn a blind eye after all their is pilot shortage at the moment. Plus if something does happen then that very capable man Mr Gibson will have a prepared speech for the media using lots of words like systematic breakdown of standard operating procedures caused this resultant accident.