LHR T5 ... long-haul

[shoey1976]

BA is to postpone moving most of its long-haul flights to T5 because of the teething problems it has had there.
they were supposed to have transferred over from April 30.
GMB welcome the move.


your thoughts?

Ian Shoesmith
BBC News

[Hand Solo]

An inevitable move. Switching on 30th April would have made the events of 27th March look like a model of efficiency.

[EagleStar]

I'm sure that Air France and SkyTeam are doing their nut over this!

Everyone has been blaming BA, and they must take a great deal of the blame themselves, but BAA / Ferrovial is the main culprit as they run the airport, facilities and buildings. I'm sure that they don't mind the problems at T5 too much as they will be making more money out of retail. T5 is Bluewater 2!

Lets face it... UK aviation is quickly going down the pan like Britain's railways have!


EagleStar

[VAFFPAX]

Bravo. BA management finally sees some sense. Colleagues at BA pointed out to me last weekend that if BA management were to go ahead with the move from T4, T5's opening fiasco would look like a walk in the park.

And understandably, those who were to move to T4 after BA vacating, will hopefully demand damages from BAA (not BA). As long as this does not affect T1/2/3 too much, pax should hopefully grin and bear it a little while longer (or avoid LHR altogether). My future flights are mostly out of LGW - in a way that's a blessing in disguise.

S.

[bermudatriangle]

I travelled through T5 this week and despite the adverse publicity and lack of long haul passengers,the terminal was busy.still a building site,builders pass office in full view,unfinished work everywhere,covered signage,the list just go's on and on.plenty of very upmarket retail space which i am sure would be far better utilised in future for passenger comfort,but little chance of that!if and when BA switch the longhaul operation to T5 the lack of space will become very apparent.one last comment,when boarding my flight,after biometric reconciliation and boarding pass scanned,proceeded down escalator to airbridge,escalator suddenly stopped and automatic doors to airbridge closed,nearly causing passengers to fall forwards.the BA gate agent had to come down escalator,swipe open automatic doors then hold them open manually whilst we proceeded to board.obviously problems with equipment that is currently being used.

[ajamieson]

I'm sure that Air France and SkyTeam are doing their nut over this!
Exactly. And not just other airlines but their customers, too.

I pay extortionate Passenger Service Charges to use LHR and I don't see why the reshuffle to improve facilities for MY airline of choice should be delayed because of problems at BA.

[derekvader]

I wonder if Harrods and the other low-variety high-price shops in T5 get to claim damages or at least a rent reduction from BAA as well, for making them wait an extra two months before the long-haul passengers show up to buy stuff.

[172driver]

Flew into T5 last Sunday. Well, at least tried to, got diverted to Birmingham due weather, different story...... anyway, after a couple of hours on the ground there, finally got to LHR/T5 - and sat about 50 m from the stand. After about 10 mins captain comes on and declares 'this is chaos - there's nobody to switch on the guidance system and nobody to operate the skybridge'. After another 10 mins or so we finally made it to the terminal.....

Once in there, the signage is a joke (to put it charitably), nobody had any idea where to go to. At the platform of the shuttle to the main terminal there was no sign indicating which train to use. It may be clear if you KNOW that this only runs between midfield and main terminals, but how many people do? Lots of people in hi-viz vests (what would the UK be without them :ugh:) milling about, quite obviously clueless as to what to do where. In any case, nobody, and I mean nobody, on the ground gave the impression to care a rat's a** what was going on. Anticipating chaos, I only travelled with carry-on luggage, so got out of this shambles rather quickly.

While I'm not sure who technically operates what in there, BA or BAA, as BA are the sole user of this terminal it is incumbent on them to ensure smooth operations. They have failed miserably.

To sum up - T5, best avoid.

[apaddyinuk]

For once a sensible decision is made in light of all the other previous cock ups!

[shoey1976]

BMI are pretty fed up to put it mildly -- they've just said they weren't told about BA's decision!

[atakacs]

Juste wondering - what will happen with the slots BA was supposed to make free when moving long haul into T5 ?

[cjhants]

so no chance of heathrow east opening for the olympics

[Walnut]

W/W on Sky News has just admitted 25% of the original lost bags are still not reunited with their owners. But one question the news reader failed to ask him was, What percentage of new bags are being lost on the existing flights? Perhaps someone can ask that question from within the media, or from within the T5 handling system.

[Basil]

SO - very clearly BAA handed over a terminal which was not at all fit for use.

I recollect when the B744 was delivered, Boeing offered free full tanks to customers who were happy to take the aircraft as it stood.
BA declined and carried out pre-acceptance flight checks, returning the aircraft to the manufacturer to correct any minor faults detected.

Well, the acceptance check on T5 has been carried out and I trust that BA will not move further flights there until BAA can present a fully functioning facility.

[flugangst]

Good news everyone, my first post. hope this is news.

The farce continues...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/11/nba111.xml

[Mr Flaps]

Its BA trying to use their size to push others around. bmi are picking up the mess that BA has made and over the last few weeks passengers are enjoying using T1 now BA have left. And the number of passengers saying they will use bmi again is growing every day. Some have said they will never go back to BA.
I can understand why bmi is upset. They are picking the mess and helping passengers and getting put down with the other hand.
I think a BA bmi merger will be off the cards.
BA got themeselves into this mess and BAA helped them. They should not cause more problems at Heathrow for other airlines just because they did give staff more training and time in T5 before it opened.
BA and BAA world wide laughing stoke.

[Flitefone]

Errrr, last time I checked, LHR was a BAA Airport, T5 was a BAA facility with baggage, signage etc all provided by BAA (although I do know there was a joint BA/BAA deal for the IT networks) .... so why do we keep seeing WW on TV apologising and not the head of the BAA?

BA is the customer, BAA is the provider, WW should be throwing down the gauntlet to get BAA to up their game pronto! ...which no doubt he is doing behind the scenes, but its BA thats getting all the stick..

Can you imagine the fireworks at BAA if Michaeol O'Leary was the customer!?

BA for sure have screwed up their planning and post operation logistics, but thank goodness they have had the sense to defer the long haul transfer. But it's BAA management that should be taking more of the heat and to quote Mr O'Leary who has even issued a press release on the topic post T5, 'its time to break up the London airport monopoly' I agree we need to get some proper competition and service enhancements underway..

Excellent piece in The Times the other day pushing for big user price hikes at LHR as a means of reducing demand and getting the airport back to working within its capacity... worth a read, but unlikley to find favour at BA.

Either way LHR today is full to busrting and cannot cope with any irregular operation, whether snow, strikes, security scares or logistics failures, runway or taxiway outages etc etc...How many time s has BA cancelled significant slices of its short haul operation over the last year for one or more of these reasons ?? I reckon one day in twenty affected.

Best avoid if at all possible!

FF

[eagle21]

Come on guys even in Spain we managed to fit all the Oneworld airlines in one terminal without that much trouble ! MAD T4

By the way jokes apart don't you think that CDG, MAD,FRA,AMS have one thing in common that LHR lucks , that is RWYs and floor space . LHR will be the biggest looser in the next few years, only the A380 to boost the pax figures.

[eagle21]

Excellent piece in The Times the other day pushing for big user price hikes at LHR as a means of reducing demand and getting the airport back to working within its capacity... worth a read, but unlikley to find favour at BA.



This must be the most cobard way of dealing with problems, what you do is plan ahead , imagine if I started a new route between LHR and DXB on a A321 configured in full charter seating, and then once I notice that we won't we making it there with all the pax that bought a ticket I decide to only take those that pay more. Imagine this happens for over 10 years....

[Flitefone]

Spot on Eagle 21!

Maplin wasn't it!? We are paying the price now for decisions taken years ago..

Take a look at the excellent new airports in Hong Kong, KL, Munich etc etc to see what a bit of planning can achieve. But we are where we are.. the question is how to deal with it!

FF

[carbootking]

as some one else said the shops, all the big names are their waiting for the long haul all they are getting is short haul , it must be affecting their turnover,

[Muizenberg]

Don't know why Nigel Turner is jumping up and down?? The BA move from T4 to T5 6 weeks late WILL NOT effect Bmi or the Star Alliance. BA have vacated T1 for the most part making space for United/Air NZ on 10th June...Many other star carriers such as AC/SK/SQ/TG are staying at T3. LH is staying at T2; OZ, US, SA, LO are already in T1 So what's the big deal??

Didn't think the AF move to T4 was immediate; there is plenty of space for DL/NW/CO as things stand.

There are still bigger issues in the world such as the election fraud in Zimbabwe, and AA's mass cancellations in the USA due to the grounding of the MD83's, etc.

BA/BAA make a sensible decision to prevent a repeat of the previous debacle; yet people have to look to the negatives...

[VAFFPAX]

The DfT is partially to blame for lack of capacity at LHR. They turned down a proposal for a new airport in the Thames Gateway (i.e. Ebbsfleet/Dartford), because it was supposedly too expensive.

Hang on a minute - Tons of space for lots of runways, get the Dutch in to build flood defenses, and you have an airport like AMS, move LHR to the east, and return all that land to use by people/business and you might have something, but no, it was too expensive. After the consultation on a third runway it turns out that the third runway proposal (or even a fourth runway proposal past 2020) would be worse in cost than an all-new airport.

The Economist has a fantastic piece on this... I was very pleased to read that and am pondering the level of idiocy in the civil service. Who in their right mind would turn down a propo... oh never mind.

Whichever way you slice it, LHR is toast capacity-wise and it will get worse.

S.

[Muizenberg]

Agree with VAFFPAX; London needs a new airport with the capacity to grow! Look at HKG, DEN, BKK and CDG all purpose built new airports to support future growth. Authorities in Hong Kong/Denver knew Kai Tak/Stapleton were unable to grow...thus did the sensible thing. Heathrow will get more congested; and the problems will persist/worsen.

Welcome to the UK; well at least the 2012 Olympics will only have to follow in the shoes of Beijing:bored:....we can live upto the expections of traffic congestion, pollution, etc.

[eagle21]

the question is how to deal with it


Just a few ideas:

Build a proper high speed train system ( eg Paris-Lyon, Barcelona-Madrid...), this will decrease the demand for this flights.

All cargo airlines to use other airports ( STN,EMA...)

Extend STN , LTN and LGW to their maximun capacities and build a high speed train conecting LHR to STN and LHR to LGW , in this way longhaul pax lands at LHR and transfer onto shorthaul flights at STN or LTN. ( Shangai airport train does 18.5 miles in 8 minutes so so you could easily do LHR-STN in under 20 min and LHR-LGW in 15minutes!

Build an underground High Speed train station( No more MAN,CDG,BRU,AMS even NCL) and make sell plane to train connection like AF does eg JFK-CDG-LYS( the last sector has an AF flight number but is infact a train service)

No hesitation on building a 3rd RWY at LHR

The goverment needs to have the authority but most importantly the leadership to carry out these works but it is time.

I understand that the cost of these measures is very high but the cost of not doing anything will be much higher very soon

[Skipness One Echo]

There are numerous threads on why the above won't work in the UK. I suggest some of you do a search.

[lexoncd]

Ba have enough liability issues with the T5 fiasco to keep EU lawyers busy for weeks. If they now moved the T4 operation to T5 and it didn't work as should be and we had anything like a repeat of the opening days then BA have no way of avoiding any liability claims as they should have known there would be an issue or at the very least that the chances of an issue were far greater than reasonably acceptable.

Heads will have to roll now.......

[Bristol based Taffy]

With BA now saying they won't be moving their long haul services from T4 to T5 until all is a little less chaotic. :hmm:

Despite AF, CO et al doing their nut, understandably.

Where does this leave the rest of the major re shuffles from T3 to T1 etc etc?:ugh:

Also as an aside question to anyone in the know do they plan on getting T1 up to scratch before United and ANZ move in, or this going to be another BAA :mad::mad: up??

Or are these the sort of questions that should have been asked BEFORE the T5 move??

And finally on a matter of 'spin' why do BA keep reporting that T5 is now running a FULL SERVICE??...That'll be a full 100% of 35% or there abouts then!!:ugh:

[eagle21]

There are numerous threads on why the above won't work in the UK. I suggest some of you do a search.

That is just an opinion, very likely to be far from true. How on earth can it work if it has never been tried?

I guees is the same reason why the euro would never work in the UK..., (check the latest exchange rate...)


How could a rail link between Glasgow and London in just 3 hours and 15 minutes not be a success in the long term? The UK is the European country with fewer high speed train lines per capita, maybe this fact has something to do with airport overcrowding??

From Wikipedia, the next article makes for some interesting reading:

Aircraft

Optimal distance

HSR is best suited for journeys of 2 - 3 hours (150-600 km or about 100-400 miles), for which the train can beat both air and car in this range. When traveling less than about 650 km (400 mi), the process of checking in and going through security screening at airports, as well as the journey to the airport itself makes the total air journey time no faster than HSR.

However, unless air travel is severely congested, merely providing a comparable service is often not a compelling financial basis for build an HSR system from scratch. As a rule of thumb, rail journeys need to be three hours or less to be competitive with air travel on journey time.

There are routes where high-speed trains have totally beaten air transport, so that there is no air connection anymore. Examples are Paris-Brussels and Cologne-Frankfurt. If the train stops at a big airport, like Paris and Frankfurt, these short distance airplanes lose an extra advantage for the many travellers who want to go to the airport for a long-distance journey. Air plane tickets can include a train segment for the journey, with guarranteed rebooking if the connection is missed, like normal air travel.

[Thatsthewaytodoit]

BMI CEO has just been on Radio 4 PM Programme and been very frank about the situation related to BA not moving.
It seems that BA and BAA have essentially informed the other airport users as to what is to happen without any consulation.
That would seem to sum up the typical arrogance of both parties
Try the Listen Again feature on BBC Radio 4 for a very interesting interview
TTWTDI

[747-436]

Was always going to be delayed after the problems of the opening. Not sure why BMI are complaining as they aren't really affected, they should have benefited from BA moving most of its flights out of T1. I suppose BMI are sticking up for the other airlines.
I think though they should be directing their fire at the BAA as I think a lot of the problems, such as the baggage system are down to them.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

At 1737 today I received an email from BA telling me that "all or part" of my booked flight to IAD will now be going through T4 instead of T5.

I'm not sure which is Terminal is worst, but at least they're letting the paying punters know what's going on, and for that I'm grateful.

[Skipness One Echo]

eagle121 no one will take you seriously if your source is wikipedia. The UK has I beleive the densest population centres in Europe. No one is going to be driving a high speed rail link straight through major population centres any time soon.
The thing about France and Germany? They're B I G G E R with more room......hence we get Runway 3 at Heathrow. Besides, taking out GLA / EDI / NCL / MME / LBE / CDG / BRU and the slots will go right to long haul and more flights. Get real.

[Golden Ticket]

I think it was sensible for BA to defer moving to T5 with longhaul. If they'd moved at the end of April then BAA would have messed them about for months. As it is hopefully the other airlines like Air France and Lufthansa will pile some pressure on BAA to get things working properly as they'll be held up by BA not wanting to move till it's all sorted.

[Gonzo]

eagle21....

All cargo airlines to use other airports ( STN,EMA...)

Well, that'll free up, what, four slots a day. Drop in the ocean.

VAFF,


Hang on a minute - Tons of space for lots of runways, get the Dutch in to build flood defenses, and you have an airport like AMS, move LHR to the east, and return all that land to use by people/business and you might have something, but no, it was too expensive. After the consultation on a third runway it turns out that the third runway proposal (or even a fourth runway proposal past 2020) would be worse in cost than an all-new airport.

Where will the tens of thousands of workers who currently work at Heathrow live? How about the tens of thousands of people who currently work for businesses wholly or partly serving Heathrow live and work? What will all the companies who have located their corporate HQs in the M4/M3/M40 corridor do?

[eagle21]

eagle121 no one will take you seriously if your source is wikipedia

No one will take you seriously with such a disgraceful infrastructure:

LHR, LGW, LCY,LTN

M25 a joke
M1 a bigger joke
Very slow and smelly trains
London underground the best joke ever!
NHS I will die laughing!

At least there is a very good ferry service, but the rest of the crountry seems to be collapsing, just look at the £$ v € rate now , it was time to invest some time ago in improving these areas but someone decided to spend the money in Iraq instead...

[eagle21]

Where will the tens of thousands of workers who currently work at Heathrow live? How about the tens of thousands of people who currently work for businesses wholly or partly serving Heathrow live and work? What will all the companies who have located their corporate HQs in the M4/M3/M40 corridor do?



What did all those employees working in other airports in the world do when they decided to open a new bigger airport?? eg, athen, Paris, Hong Kong , Tokyo...

Do you think those countries are suffering as much from air traffic congestion now? The answer is no.

Some people just love living in the past, I guess this is the reason why nothing has been done yet. Only T5 " Ontime & Onbugdet " :ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

We are a victim of a massively overheating economy in recent years where evryone and their granny was flying through the South East.
The Underground? No investment for a generation by the Tories.
The NHS? Money pissed up a wall by Labour, little to show for it.
The motorways? Can't fix it as in reality, way too many cars on the road.

Too many folk, too little space.

[eagle21]

Too many folk, too little space I agree

But soon all those immigrants and UK citizens might start leaving the UK in mass if things start getting worse and hopefully things will start getting better then.

[Mick Stability]

Why is no-one leaning on Martin Broughton? He hired Walsh, if it wasn't him, it would've been the next mad axe man. This is Broughton's agenda, his design.

Shoey, you have your man, go and find him.

[Gonzo]

eagle21,

What did all those employees working in other airports in the world do when they decided to open a new bigger airport?? eg, athen, Paris, Hong Kong , Tokyo...Errr, well, I don't know, that's why I was asking questions. :rolleyes:

[Basil]

Too many folk, too little space.
Most sensible summation I've heard for a while - think on't!

[Basil]

shoey1976 ,
Could you have a word with the presenter colleague who referred to BA as (can't remember precisely but along the lines of 'acting like spoilt child') on Friday evening news?
The boy clearly doesn't understand the reality of business or accurate reporting.

[canuck slf]

What happens now to the new routes, such as NW from Seattle, who are due to use T4 and are who are selling passengers tickets?
Anybody heard anything?

[WHBM]

Why is no-one leaning on Martin Broughton? He hired Walsh, if it wasn't him, it would've been the next mad axe man. This is Broughton's agenda, his design.

Shoey, you have your man, go and find him.
While you're there, ask M B if that was Barbara Cassani you saw springing out of the interview room as you arrived.

At the end of the day it's an operational CEO issue to be solved here, not a Chairman's strategy problem. Willie can go back to Dublin and take over a key seat at Ryanair, where he will feel more at home in every sense.

[Currock Base]

I think deferring the move is a good idea. I've been through T5 on 3 different trips and each time the experience has been positive. I've been on time through a nice modern building which beats T1 hands down. You can see there is less congestion on the airfield and the service roads - it has been well designed.

It is also totally clear that T5 building isn't finished, there are temporary doors, lifts not working, missing hand rails etc. That is down to the BAA - they've haven't finished the building but are greedy enough to want occupancy and rents.

BA delaying the longhaul move is sensible, it gives more time to train staff from T4 so lessons are learnt and applied before the move.

BMI are just looking for publicity. T1 is now nice and quiet so they can run their operation with less congestion. BA has vacated so Star alliance can move on scheduled. If anything BMI has gained a little from some PAX moving from BA due to disruption.

I know there are plenty of critcs for T5, but my experiences have been good.

CB

[derekvader]

I just hope that BA have delayed ENOUGH ... if June 5 is the new date they start moving flights over then it has to be SPOT ON and perfect. Having now made the embarassing decision to delay everything, if they now muck it up again they'll just be digging an even deeper grave for themselves.

[VAFFPAX]

Gonzo, I understand your argument about the people who work at LHR, the businesses who have based themselves close to LHR etc. However, I am sure that employees would prefer to work at a facility that is easier to work with, is possibly easier to access (which in itself is clearly something that would have to be part of the plan for the new airport), and perhaps even mean an improvement in general living standards.

Fair enough, Thames Gateway is close to Essex and Kent, relatively expensive and very densely populated, but the whole Crossrail proposal included extensions to the east and west, connecting Slough, Reading and Maidenhead to the Crossrail system, and extending eastwards too. Thames Gateway now has connections to the continent via Eurostar, which could quite possibly be included in the proposal and the plans (similar to SNCF and AF working together with the Thalis/TGV station at CDG).

I don't think the corporates would consider this the end of the world either. If a switch is done seamlessly (in the order of Hong Kong etc) they would have plenty of time to either buy or lease new real estate if they really wanted to.

Sadly, NIMBY syndrome, whichever way you slice it, will be the end of LHR or indeed ANY transport extensions/improvements in the London area. You can be guaranteed that Sussex, Hampshire, Bedfordshire and Berkshire would NOT want a mega airport anywhere near them. Essex is already moaning at STN, and Kent... well, the complaints about moving Eurostar from Ashford to Ebbsfleet were enough to make my ears bleed.

In short - we're buggered.

S.