Merged: Plane missing south of Sydney...

[tom19]

just heard on 2GB radio in the early hours of this morning that a plane dropped off radar south of Sydney somewhere. Departed from Mascot. Anyone have anything??? :sad:

Tom19

[desmotronic]

heard a conversationn on centre tonight was a metro but no other info known

[Track Direct]

A Metro on night freight with 3 POB disappeared from radar at 10 DME SY on the 149 Radial approx 2325 local time last night after departing off 16R.

Search in progress with 5 choppers & several police boats.
Some wreckage has been located in the water near Bundeena.

Condolences to all involved.

[TwoTango]

The Telegraph (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23515595-5006009,00.html) is reporting it was operated by Airtex.

A MAJOR search is underway for the pilot of a cargo plane that has crashed into water in Sydney's south after experiencing "technical difficulties."

The pilot, the sole person on board the Metroliner, raised the alarm just minutes after leaving Sydney Airport at 11.20pm last night.

Authorities hold grave fears for the pilot.

Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman Peter Gibson said five nautical miles after leaving the airport, it reported technical problems then minutes later disappeared off the radar.

After a massive search involving water police, rescue helicopters and even local fisherman, the wreckage was found about 500m off Bundeena Beach.

Witness Andrew Holmes, 29, of Caringbah said he was driving his boat to a boat mooring when he saw a plane flying erratically dipping left and right.

"I saw it go up in the clouds and then lost it. About 30 seconds later it came down out of the clouds at a 45 degree angle, tried to level out and then just disappeared on the horizon," he said.

The twin turbo propeller plane, operated by Airtex Aviation based out of Bankstown Airport, was transporting mail to Brisbane.

More to come.

[Trojan1981]

:( I sat and watched OZA take off the other night on my way home from work. I thought it looked in fairly good shape compared to other Metro freighters I have seen around Sydney. I wonder what happened?
My condolences to all involved.

[Pushin_Tin]

Any intel on the Metro that went in off Bundeena/South Sydney last night??

[goin'flyin]

Walked past that aircraft on the ramp at Sydney yesterday afternoon.
Appeared to be in the same condition as every other metro freighter.

Condolences to all involved.

[priapism]

Debris and aviation fuel slick found approximately 9nm from the coast.

[marty1468]

Debris found floating off the coast this morning. Terrible!!! Doesn't look good for survivors. One POB apparently

[Naughty S]

The pilot of the metro was a true gentleman, I have known him for 20yrs.

No speculation please everyone to the cause of the accident, the man was very experienced.

Its a very sad day for his family, my wife & I are thinking of you all.

RIP mate will have a beer or ten for you. :ok:

[LegallyBlonde]

Was up late studying and heard choppers in early hours coming back to YSBK. Very sad to hear news.
Condolences and prayers to all. :-(

[kingtoad]

Didn't OZA used to be TFQ owned by Transair???

[Thylacine]

SMH
April 10, 2008 - 9:08AM

Searchers have found debris floating in the ocean south-east of Sydney after a freight plane went missing overnight.

About 6am, members of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority search and rescue team found boxes, bags and fibreglass debris believed to be from the aircraft, which was on a mail run from Sydney to Brisbane.

"As yet we are still holding out hope [for the male pilot], but given the debris found it could be the crash site," an AMSA spokeswoman said.

"Water police officers report that they could smell aviation fuel in the area," a spokeswoman told AAP.

"We haven't recovered a body, and a range of private, police and military aircraft continue to search."

Fears were held for the safety of the pilot, who was the only person on the plane when it disappeared.

A fisherman, Andrew Holmes, told Sky News he saw the plane burst into flames and then fall towards the ground.

"It came moving back down at about a 45 degree angle and came back towards the ground, then levelled out and disappeared over the horizon," he said.

The search, which will use sonar equipment, was focused on an area of 80 square miles, about nine kilometres south-east of Bundeena in the Royal National Park.

Four helicopters had joined the search since daylight resumed, the AMSA spokeswoman said.

An air, land and sea exclusion zone is in place between Cronulla and Stanwell Park, five nautical miles (9.25km) out to sea and about 3km inland from the coast.

The plane took off from Sydney Airport about 11.30pm last night. The male pilot, the Metroliner's only occupant, reported problems 10 nautical miles (18.5km) after take-off.

"Shortly after that the aircraft disappeared off the radar at about 4,000 feet (1,219 metres)," a Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman said.

"We don't know what the problem was the pilot was alluding to, he didn't give any details in his broadcast, but obviously that is something we will look into as part of our investigations.''

The twin turboprop aircraft was being used to transport freight.

- with AAP

[heywatchthis]

very sad.... has the pilots name been released?

[Ref + 10]

We can only hope that this man is found alive...:(

[bazza stub]

Nope, I saw TFQ drag it's sorry ass into Perth the other day-I think it will be staying there too.

[LegallyBlonde]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Remember the poor guys (including Black Jack) who flew those bloody awful Pigs on the Ingham's chicken run to ML every night. Greater heaps of s:mad:t it would have been harder to find.

[Qfeel]

I was flying around SY last night when the SAR was thrown into full swing to start looking for the poor bloke.A very sad day when one of our own departs an airport for the last time. Prayers are with the family.

[Atlas Shrugged]

I really hope it wasn't who I think it was......

[sms777]

You took the words right out of my mouth Atlas.
Very sad news indeed. We are all standing by.....

[Capt Mo]

This is very sad news indeed.:sad:

The pilot was very experienced, a gentleman and just a great "down to earth bloke". I didn't know him well or for long, but it was a pleasure to have met him.

My thoughts are with his family, friends and colleagues.

Regards,

Mo

[LegallyBlonde]

A very sad day when one of our own departs an airport for the last time.
So true. Aviation is such a close community. You never lose that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when you hear such news.

[Gordstar]

My condolences to the guy's family and loved ones.
A sad day.
RIP mate.

[drshmoo]

Very sad day. Condolences to family and company. Been a bad couple of years for the poor old metros.

Was it IAW?

Hope it wasn't SAADy

[Dookie on Drums]

A very sad day indeed.

I knew the driver and he was a top bloke.

RIP my friend. It was good flying with you. :(

[mach33]

As Goldstar said.

[southpenrescue]

does your name relate to Dookie in Victoria, it an unusual name?

[Dookie on Drums]

What a waste. He was such a top bloke and I am happy that I got to fly with him for a period.

Condolences to his young family :(

RIP matey.

[vikki2010]

The Daily Telegraph are putting together a tribute for him in tomorrow's paper.
If you want to help, you can send an email through the network or on [email protected] or call on 02 9689 5314 or 0406 530 616.
Sorry for your loss,

- Vikki Campion

[wessex19]

Plane parts found on ocean floor source AAP

The search for a missing plane and its pilot off Sydney has located two large pieces of metal on the ocean floor believed to be part of the twin-engined Metroliner.

A sea and air search continued throughout the night for the aircraft, which took off from Sydney Airport at 11.30pm (AEST) on Wednesday bound for Brisbane on a mail run.

About 6am Thursday search teams first found boxes, bags and fibreglass debris believed to be from the aircraft.

"(That debris) certainly is consistent with the missing aircraft," Maritime Safety Authority spokeswoman Tracey Jiggins told Sky News.

"There were mail bags located, there was a bit of an oil sheen on the top of the water and there's also some debris which we believe is some of the fuselage.

"My understanding is there are two large pieces of metal that have been located on the bottom of the ocean there and that would indicate that that is also part of the aircraft."

The metal is too deep for police divers to reach and Ms Jiggins said specialist equipment was on its way to the site.

A Navy SeaHawk helicopter, private aircraft, NRMA CareFlight, Polair and water police have been involved in the search and HMAS Diamontina, a minesweeper equipped with sonar, is now also at the site about 9km south-east of Bundeena in the Royal National Park.

The male pilot was the only person on board the Metroliner, operated by Airtex Aviation.

Shortly after take off, the pilot reported problems.

"Ten nautical miles (18.5km) south-east of the airport, air traffic control got a broadcast from the pilot that he was having problems," a Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman told AAP.

"Shortly after that the aircraft disappeared off the radar at about 4,000 feet (1,219 metres)."

Fishermen have told Macquarie Radio they saw the plane go into a 45-degree angle dive before bursting into flames.

"What actually has caused the aircraft incident will be a matter now for the Australian Safety Transport Bureau to investigate," Ms Jiggins told Sky.

NSW Police are expected to take over co-ordination of the search later Thursday morning.

Comment was being sought from Airtex.

[pa60ops]

Yep, driver in quest a really great fellow - and great operator too. Terrible day all round. I shall miss you friend. :(

[teresa green]

Terrible when we all loose a brother. Fly free mate.

[Friction Nut]

Rest in peace mate. I'll be having a few for you tonight. Its devastating to see your experience, your jovial personality, your friendly nature and your fantastic attitude toward life, work and family, gone so soon..

Condolences to all...

Rest In Peace mate.

[morno]

Would anyone care to post the gentlemans name?

morno

[QF5]

Is the metroliner a single pilot aircraft? or was there two pilots lost? pardon my ignorance, I was just under the impression it was a two pilot operation.

My thoughts and prayers are going out to all who've been touched by the crash.

[Moniker]

QF5

It can be either or, usually single pilot when freight and two pilot when pax on board.

Condolences to all involved.

[Friction Nut]

Until its formally released, its probably not a good idea.

[vikki2010]

We would like to get a nice photo of him too.

Regards,

- Vikki Campion, [email protected] or 9689 5314

[Atlas Shrugged]

See Friction Nut post above

[morno]

Apologies, didn't mean to seem insensitive, I wasn't sure if it was formally released or not.

Thanks

morno

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

A Saad day indeed if that is the case, the only sane person I had the pleasure meeting in an insane workplace.

[tipsy2]

Ever since I was involved in the investigation of a Metro Freighter accident nr Tamworth enroute from Armidale, I have wondered why a Metro with passengers is more complicated as to require 2 pilots to operate it as opposed to the Metro carrying freight is apparently less complicated and therefore only needs 1 pilot to operate.

Can anyone answer this as it has been bugging me for the last 10 or so years.

tipsy:ooh:

[OneDotLow]

Condolences to all touched by this terrible tragedy.

[Jabawocky]

Unqualified comments but what the heck....

Freighter, pilot dies from heart attack.....lost freight, PAX, other pilot flies on.

Freighter without an A/P working is 2 x Pilot, where its 1 pilot with the A/P.

May not be regulated that way but it seems the operate that way.

No doubt someone will correct me

J:ok:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

It has to do with the legislated requirement for the "type of operation", i.e passenger carrying, it has nothing to do with the "aircraft type".

The Metro 23 ( the biggest of the Metro's ) is certified by the FAA as a single pilot aeroplane.

To operate this type on Charter (with pax) or RPT you need two pilots, refer CAO's.

[RatsoreA]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23517125-29277,00.html

Very sad news to have to hear. :sad:

Always a pleasure flying with you.

There was always something valuable to be learned, and you were always ready to teach it.

[SIDS N STARS]

Would it be too disruptive to have a minute silence at Dom 5 around 2330 to remember a fallen comrade??

Comisserations and condolences to all..

[tipsy2]

LRT according to the ATSB website

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200802204.aspx


Type of Operation...............Charter

Also refering to the ASIR I alluded to earlier

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1994/AAIR/pdf/ASOR199400612.PDF


Type of Operation.....................(also) Charter

Still does not answer my question why the crew compliment required to operate as a freighter is different to that when the same aircraft is operated as a Passenger aircraft. Does the aircraft morph itself and become more complicated or vice versa.

tipsy

[Brasilian Boy]

I'll ask the load staff if they can give a minute's silence tonight at 2330.

[tipsy2]

I am aware of the Regs etc but being Compliant (legal if you like) does not necessarily mean it is safe. This is a concept that regulatory authorities have difficulty understanding and/or accepting. There are those that still believe writting more legislation with the attendant punitive measures will make things safer:=


Just like the universal :rolleyes:compliance with the road rules has become because of fines/demerit points etc..............:cool:

tipsy:ok:

[OPSH24]

Whether or not it should be single or two pilots, with or without an AP, is a conversation that may not be appropriate at this time. Until a reasonable investigation has concluded the casual factors for this tragedy this conversation, as valid as it may be, might be better taken up in another thread as not to presume anything about this terrible accident.

There but for the grace of God go we.

My condolences to the family of the departed, his family and workmates.

Rest in Peace

[MUNT]

Condolences to the family of a pilot loved by many

R I P

[multi_engined]

Pilot's name was released on channel seven news this evening.

Condolences to family.

[Capt Wally]

Tipsy I remember that Metro's demise just to the Nth of YSTW some years ago whilst conducting a DME arr, in fact I have some melted pieces of it's airframe somewhere here at home, (long story as to why I have them) it was VH-SWP(ex Kendells). That was so sad to see the complete plane reduced to a crumpled burnt out mess in some salvage yard juts out of Tamworth:bored:

I feel so numb when I here of fellow aviators departure via such a violent way.
....................he now flies free !



CW

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

geeezuzz Tipsy2, it is in the legislation, do we need to say anymore.

Why don't we operate all aircraft two crew, why not make it three and a flight engineer.

[Roost]

My condolences to the family of the departed, his family.

RIP

As far as 1 or 2 crew, there are certain operations your not permitted to do as a single pilot operation in i.e. wet go-around. So the aircraft dosen't get more complicated its just you can use it to its full compexity if you have a full compliment of crew.

[Stationair8]

Metro II, Bandeirante, Kingair 200, Nomad 24, DH114 Heron, Cessna C404 etc were all opearted single pilot on RPT with anything up to 19 pax until the accident with the Avdev B200 at Sydney in the early 1980's.

You can fly a charter in Cessna C404 with a CPL licence and carry 12 passengers, fly the same aircraft on RPT you limited to 9 pax.

Impulse operated the Beech 1900C/D on night freight single pilot operations until they phased out the aircraft.

[Swift6]

A very sad day,

I am greatful for having known him. He gave myself and others at the Scouts so much of his time. Without him I wouldn't have been able to start flying when I did. When he was in the air you could see that he was in his element, sometimes he'd even hum as we flew along!

My condolences to his family my thoughts are with you at this most awful time.

[Rostov]

This is yet another tradgedy.:(

Rest in peace.
I still am unaware who the driver was but my connections here run deep enough. It seems so long ago since VH-BSS crashed into Botany Bay and yet not long enough.
Too many of my friends never got where they wanted to go, I can't retire quick enough from this coont of an industry.:(
Devastated. is an understatment.

[Naughty S]

Moderators shut down this thread please there are enough comments on another thread already without the pi**ing contest about CAO's etc

This person was a close friend of mine, give him some respect please without the speculation.

[OhForSure]

May he rest in peace... And may the findings of this accident go on to save lives in the future. :(

[TopTup]

Condolences to all concerend. I too have had ties to the company.

Those of you with your head planted up your ar$e regarding CAOs should go back to flying school and not bring such a sad occurance down your pathetic scope of self indulgent d!ck measuring.

R.I.P.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Scott,

What are you talking about ?, no one here is speculating about anything, QF5 asked a reasonable question.

If anyone here was going to talk crap about this individual, I can assure you many of us here will defend him to the hilt, he is going to be remebered by me as a great bloke and a very experienced Pilot, irrespective of what any future investigation may or may not have to say.

So, get off your high horse.

[kingRB]

RIP :sad:

Condolences for all family and friends.

[Naughty S]

High horse that just makes me vomit.

John was one of my best friends.

RIP mate.:ok:

[bentleg]

A great guy. He gave a lot of his time to Scouts. He taught me to fly.......

[FullySickBro]

Worked with him for 12 months.

A real genuine bloke I could always have a real genuine yarn to- couldn't ask for more.

This world could use a few more of him.

Lets keep it about him and his family.

Condolenscences- Rest in Peace brother.

[G11]

Hi All,

Here is a good idea, can someone who knows this Pilots name start a Care Zone on this website http://www.imthinkingofyou.com.au

When you have started the Care Zone invite yourself via email and once you get the email copy and paste the link on this forum so we can all join and leave some messages for the family.

If someone can tell me his name i can do it.

Cheers

G11

[sms777]

G11

I am still very upset loosing a fellow aviator but if you have not watched the 6 o'clock news here is his name:
JOHN HAMILTON.

Condolences to his family.
R.I.P. my friend.

[buckaroo]

A very very, very sad day indeed. Words can't explain or lessen the pain that so many will be feeling at the loss of such a good mate. The pilot in question and indeed a good old mate, a character larger than life and an extremely diligent,competent and proffensional driver, bought meaning and purpose to life. I can't begin to understand or comprehend 'WHY'. But I know first hand mate that you knew that aeroplane and a I just hope we find out 'WHY'. The industry has lost one of the dieing breeds of the good old, honest and loveable characters.

RIP mate, you will be forever missed and admired by your friends and collegues. My deepest condolences and thoughts in this very diffucult time go out to all your family, mates, work mates and anyone who's life you have touched. It was always an absloute pleasure flying with you old mate.

P.S I'll be sure to win the next shoot for ya mate, RIP bud.

[Murray Cod]

Yes , I agree Rostov , my list of people that I have have met through flying is starting to decrease.
MC

[cessnaman172]

A tragedy..........

Just like everyone else who has posted on this thread, I too can't speak highly enough of one of aviations' gentlemen.

I worked with John at Airtex for 2 years. I last saw him at Taree on the afternoon of Tuesday 8th April, he had just arrived there in an Aerostar, and unfortunately I wasnt able to go over to him and say hi, cos I was just about to taxi away from the terminal.

My sincerest condolonces to Johns Family, friends, and collegues.

May you rest in peace my friend.

G.K.

[TWOTBAGS]

Firstly I would like to express my sincerest condolences to the family, friends, and colleagues that have been affected by this unexpected loss.


There will always be speculation and this forum is but a mirror of what is being said behind closed doors.

Today I was privy to a discussion that goes nearly all the way to explaining what happened and while supported by initial evidence it is by no means official.

I sincerely believe that when the ATSB have done their job there will be nothing found wrong with the aircrafts serviceability and the final circumstances will have been deemed beyond the physical capabilities of the PIC. However I doubt that any regulator changes will result.

This is as far as I am willing to comment publicly all the clues are there. It is not the first time this issue has raised its head and will not be the last it is by no means type, crew or location specific.

RIP

[Jabawocky]

TWOTBAGS

Gee......without saying anything you have really pointed towards a nasty aft CofG due to some low standards in loading of freighters or something that you feel CASA do not regulate or monitor tightly enough.

If that is the case.....what a horrible way to spend your last minute alive.

J

[Dog One]

Incorrectly loading the M23 or III usually results in the rear cargo door not closing, due to fuselage bending.

[tinpis]

Specially nasty if the cargo is up and running around...:hmm:

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/04/12/3846_ntnews.html

[Jabawocky]

Thread drift I know Tin, but thats a damned good time for a good negative G pushover followed by anything with the skid ball trying to escape the end of its tube.....or LCD screen as the case may be:E

J

Back to normal viewing..........

[StrutlessDrKiller]

Specially nasty if the cargo is up and running around...:hmm:


Yet another training issue!

The pilot should have been thoroughly trained on techniques for getting the attention of unruly freight!

Dr :8

[venturi101]

The wreckage was located the day following the accident.
Its in about 113m of water.
I saw him taxi out that evening, it was a shock to hear of the accident.

Our thoughts are with him.

[das Uber Soldat]

I believe the location of the wreckage the day after the accident was in fact a false positive. To date I haven't heard of them locating the real wreckage as yet. Hope they do soon.

[Richard G]

ATSB advised me as of 12.15pm AEST today, they still had not located the wreckage.

Previous reports of the wreckage being found are incorrect.

[venturi101]

I guess the constant shift of tides would move it all around abit.
Lets hope its found soon.

[Trash Hauler]

Has anyone heard if the wreckage has been located? I cannot find anything on the ATSB site since they announced that they had not in fact found the aircraft.

Cheers

TH

[bentleg]

Has anyone heard if the wreckage has been located? I cannot find anything on the ATSB site since they announced that they had not in fact found the aircraft.

A colleague of mine spoke to ATSB today. ATSB said the search for the wreckage is still continuing but being hampered by poor weather. He expects the weather to improve and to be able to resume the search on Sunday. ATSB are working with NSW Police.

They confirmed that they had detected the 'pinger' from the flight data recorder and will now work to narrow down the search area.

[Trash Hauler]

I have checked the ATSB website and still no update. Any one heard how they are going with the recovery?

TH

[carro]

if it was that badly out of CofG how did he manage to get up to 4 grand

[bentleg]

A colleague gained this update from ATSB -

They have located a significant wreckage field using sonar
They have used remotely operated vehicles to search for the wreckage
They have only found small pieces of what they believe to be aircraft
panelling and skin and are still looking for the large components
The recovery is hampered by the depth, which is between 100 and 120m,
and the poor light and visibility
The depth of the wreckage precludes use of conventional human divers
They have not yet positively identified the aircraft, but are very
confident that the wreckage is of the Metroliner.
The FDR is a simple 6 parameter recorder, so expected to yield only
limited information.
The aircraft also carried a CVR.
ATSB is committed to completing the recovery operation, but it is taking
much longer than they expected.

[Trojan1981]

Any word on the recovery, all seems to have gone quiet.

[bentleg]

ATSB have issued a preliminary report (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200802204.aspx)

[Centaurus]

There were no annotated defects on the last recorded maintenance documentation available to the investigatiion

Once again a potential vital piece of evidence (the current maintenance release)is lost forever due to the archaic CASA requirement this document must be carried on every flight. In almost every fatal accident in Australia especially if the aircraft was totally destroyed, the current maintenance release with its list of recorded defects since last 100 hourly, goes up literally in smoke. ATSB above quote "there were no annotated defects on the last recorded maintenance release". Does that mean the last maintenance release before the current document (now at the bottom of the sea)? It seems incredible this aircraft flew for 100 hours and no defects in that time?

If a copy of a passenger manifest is required by legislation to be left at each point of departure, then it should pose no great impost to the company or pilot to leave a copy of the current maintenance release at each point of departure. That way in event of an accident at least ATSB may get their hands on vital information pertaining to that aircraft and that may have a bearing on the cause of the accident.

Sure it is common knowledge that many GA operators discourage their pilots from writing up defects in the maintenance release, and like the info ATSB discovered after this Metro accident, the previous MR kept on file was clean - nevertheless a record of current defects if annotated on the current maintenance release would surely be of inestimable value to accident investigators.

[Trojan1981]

I found this thread in Rumours and News. It is about a Norwegian Coast Guard Merlin that crashed recently and reportedly sank in 320m of water.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=331955

The wreckage, and the remains of the crew, were recovered very promptly. If this can be done in stormy seas of Norway, why can't it be done here? Surely the Sydney SSR would have recorded a very accurate plot of the descent and impact position of the Metro. The longer the wreckage sits on the bottom of the sea, the greater deterioration of any evidence pointing to the cause of the accident.
I also feel for the family, not having closure.


This link might be of interest too, just to prove that Australia does indeed have the capability to effect a recovery of this nature in a reasonably short time.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMinTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6450

[bentleg]

This link might be of interest too, just to prove that Australia does indeed have the capability to effect a recovery of this nature in a reasonably short time.


Short? It took three months from the accident.

There is no doubt we have the capability. It took three months to pull up a Westwind in similar circumstances a few years ago.

[Trojan1981]

Yes, it did take nearly four months but the helicopter was in water much deeper than this metro and the recovery crew had to go to Fiji to get it. They also had video evidence and many eyewitness reports (including from survivors) to help establish the cause of the crash. In that case the recovery of the wreckage may not have been so urgent as it may not have been crucial to establishing the cause (speculating here).
I read about the Westwind but am to young to remember it. In the report it states that the RAN withdrew the minehunter supporting the search and recovery, not providing one again untill several months later.

The RAN and contractors such as DMS have much better equipment than they did in the mid-80s and they have more of it. I just thought the recovery would proceed a bit quicker than this. Does anyone know if the RAN or DMS are providing support for the recovery?

[bentleg]

ATSB have issued an interim factual report (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008026_InterimFactual.pdf)

What sort of system failure would cause both the CVR and FDR to not record?

[Miraz]

Bizarre - doesn't bode well for working out what happened does it?

[sprocket check]

Interesting factual points in the preliminary report-discolouration of the recorders paintwork. Usually that would indicate a fire or extensive heat. Where are they located and what systems are close to the recorders?

Why would he disappear off the radar at 3900 so close to the airport? Does the radar have no coverage below 4000 out to sea?

Is there any technical data available on the net about the Metro?

sc

[international hog driver]

Why would he disappear off the radar at 3900 so close to the airport?

A- Transponder either quitting or having its power supply terminated either intentionally or not.

The report makes no comment about primary or secondary returns.

I still reckon its loadshift.

[bentleg]

I still reckon its loadshift


Speculation, but with the evidence of control difficulties it would have to be a possibitity. The dive mentioned by a witness may have been an attempt to gain airspeed.


Transponder either quitting or having its power supply terminated either intentionally or not.


Agree re transponder cut out. Does not explain why the FDR and CVR did not record from the start of the flight. Why did the FDR and CVR not record?

[Jabawocky]

IHD

I agree, and when you read the posts at the bottom of page 4 there is a bit of speculation by someone who seems to know something about the chances of that happening.

Rather strange to have 2 x recorders with nothing beyond the previous flight shutdown.

J

[man on the ground]

Does the radar have no coverage below 4000 out to sea?

Radar coverage, both primary & SSR, down to the water in that area.

[sms777]

One more thing...

Apparently had a new autopilot fitted a few days before the accident...:suspect:

hhhmmmm...

[Dog One]

From memory, if the "g" switches are activated ie on landing, it brings up the FDR warning light, but can't remember if the FDR ceases to record or not as well

[bentleg]

Would any electrical or system failure account for that?


The CVR and FDR did not record for any part of the subject flight. The transponder failed/stopped later in the flight. If there had been a total electrical failure at the outset I doubt the pilot would have taken off.

What sort of failure will cause both the FDR and CVR to stop recording yet the transponder and radio keep working a bit longer? The paint damage referred to earlier may be relevant here.........

[Miraz]

I guess the focus is on what changed between shutting the a/c down after the previous flight and powering it up for it's final flight.

It would be interesting to go through the tech manual and pre-flight checklists and see what the possibilities are for missing failures in some of the systems that weren't working at the start of the flight(FDR, CVR, others?), and those that failed after take off (transponder, radio, instruments that might explain the flightpath?).

It does seem odd that the aircraft took off with what appears to be a significant electrical/systems issue already evident.

[sprocket check]

It does seem odd that the aircraft took off with what appears to be a significant electrical/systems issue already evident.

Not necessarily the case, the PIC may not have been aware of any looming faults. It is unlikely he would have taken off with known faults, IMHO.

The FDR and CVR may have been recording-the time scale on the graph in the report makes it difficult to ascertain. It shows a scale of 5.5 hours, the flight only lasted a few minutes from startup.

Anyone know what method is used to activate the control surfaces on the Metro? Hydraulic, electric?

sc

[Miraz]

PIC may not have been aware of any looming faults

This was what I was getting at - the report states the CVR and FDR both end when the previous flight was shutdown....so if they never restarted again, then something was already amiss before it turned a wheel.

[The Green Goblin]

The inverter supplies AC power to the instruments. There are two inverters although only one supplies power at any time. Both are capable of powering both AC buses if the other fails. Inverter one is supplied from the left essential bus and inverter two is supplied from the right essential bus.

In the Metro 23 both primary AH's are powered from DC power and operate whenever a source is connected to the battery bus such as a battery or a generator. In the Metro 2/3 they are all powered by AC power from either inverter and will not function unless an inverter is turned on. Normally inverter 1 is used powered from the left essential bus.

If he didn't turn on the inverter he would have only had the altimeter (from memory) provided the standby was turned on. If it was the Metro 23 he would have had airspeed, the altimeter and the standby AH.

[Jabawocky]

Did they ever recover the data recorders and the main wreckage?

Its not that far away.....but they did seem to struggle finding it. Gone very quiet since.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Yep but there was no data from the accident flight.

[Jabawocky]

Bugger! That makes it harder.

[Capt Fathom]

Yep but there was no data from the accident flight.
Bugger! That makes it harder.

This is not new information! It was all reported here in the preliminary report!

Preliminary Report (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008026_InterimFactual.pdf)

[Horatio Leafblower]

This is not new information! It was all reported here in the preliminary report!

... I know, but jabs is from QLD and you gotta spell it out for 'em :rolleyes:

[VH-XXX]

From the Heraldsun.com.au

A PILOT whose body was never recovered after his cargo plane crashed into the ocean off Sydney probably lost control because he was disorientated, a report has found.

The twin-engined Metroliner was on a mail run to Brisbane when it plunged into the ocean about 11.30pm (AEST) on April 8, 2008, with the loss of 43-year-old pilot John Hamilton.

A major search ensued, involving a Navy SeaHawk helicopter, private aircraft, NRMA CareFlight, Polair and water police.

"The pilot was presumed to be fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed," the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) said in its final report on the crash, released today.

"Air traffic control initiated search actions and search vessels later recovered a small amount of aircraft wreckage."

Investigators recovered the aircraft's on-board flight recorders from the ocean floor, but the report said the recorders had no information from the flight.

"It was highly likely that the pilot took off without alternating current electrical power supplied to the aircraft's primary flight instruments," the report said.

"It is most likely that the lack of a primary attitude reference during the night take-off led to pilot spatial disorientation and subsequent loss of control of the aircraft."

The last contact with Mr Hamilton was when he reported a "slight technical fault".

"No other transmissions were heard from the pilot," the ATSB said.

It identified a "significant safety issue" with Fairchild Industries' training and checking of its pilots.

"The conduct of the flight single-pilot increased the risk of errors of omission, such as not turning on or noticing the failure of aircraft items and systems, or complying with directions," the report said.

[Captain Nomad]

That makes for very sad reading. What a price to pay... That's a 'last few minutes' that none of us would want to live.

How dissapointing that an aircraft like that can get into that kind of situation without adequate warning of the lack of AC power to the avionics. I wonder if this report will change anything...? :suspect:

[neville_nobody]

Wasn't there a Westwind accident at YSSY in the 80's where a similar thing happened?? Electrical failure and noone noticed?

[bentleg]

as usual the media report distorts the facts.......

read the actual ATSB final report here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3422407/ao2008026.pdf)

[ThePaperBoy]

Single-pilot, IFR turbine at 11:30pm at night. Line up on the runway, go to speeds high and confirm all of the lights have gone out. All of the caution lights should be out except two amber 'BETA' lights.

Both AC bus lights will illuminate if AC power hasn't been selected 'ON' or there's no power to the essential bus on the same side as the selected inverter. Left essential bus = inverter 1, right essential bus = inverter 2.

If there was no power to the relevant essential bus many other systems would have not being working, including some of the cockpit lighting. Most likely the generators were on therefore providing the essential buses with DC power but neither inverter was selected 'ON', therefore no AC power to the relevant systems.

No AC bus power = no primary instruments, CVR or FDR.

If fatigued or in a hurry it may be easy to confuse two amber 'AC BUS' lights as 'BETA' lights and think everything is normal until after rotation.
Could be one explanation for why the AC power wasn't turned on. We will never know. This is no reflection on the professionalism of the pilot, just a very unfortunate mistake hopefully future pilots will learn from.

Most of the speculation in the previous 122 posts is utter crap. Anyone who hasn't flown a Metro, or are familiar with its systems, should keep their mouths shut.

Can't believe it took the ATSB this long to 'figure it out'. Most Metro pilots had a pretty good idea what caused the crash once they heard there was no FDR info recorded.

Checking AC power and the AI was one thing I've never rush when flying a Metro.

Parting comment - amazing how quickly CASA were able to collect evidence and go after the operator involved, yet it took the ATSB years to complete their report. Not a shot at the operator, rather our government departments.

[Centaurus]

Losing an AH in IMC is every pilot's nightmare. Unless one is current and competent on limited panel flying, then the end result may be a spiral dive.

Once having passed the initial issue for a CIR, few pilots go back to synthetic trainers to keep current on flight instrument emergencies. Besides the availibility of desk top Microsoft Flight simulators where instrument failures can be programmed, many flying schools also have synthetic trainers capable of programming instrument failures. There is no excuse not to practice on these. All you need is enthusiasm and dedication.

General aviation pilots willing to pay a few dollars to hire a synthetic trainer for an hour a month, will quickly discover good training value. Simply fail the AH and practice limited panel manoeuvres without hurting yourself. It is all about scan technique - and more important, it is currency.

Once you have seen the high level of skill needed to fly on limited panel - and particularly after you crash a few times - then the vital importance of regular practice will be realised. Obviously you cannot do this in the real aircraft in IMC so there is no other option except hire a synthetic trainer.

It is tax deductable, too

[ThePaperBoy]

Gets very tricky though when the AI, HSI and RMI are all out. Level out at 3000ft over the ocean and the somatogravic illusion would be terrible with a Metro under acceleration and none of the previously mentioned instruments available.

Other option for the failure is number 2 inverter selected, but right essential bus failure just before or after take-off. However, if this was the case I believe the CVR and FDR would have recorded a small amount of information.

[das Uber Soldat]

Operating single pilot out of bk he most likely would have either had it in inverter one or accidentally off, at least thinking he was on 1. He picks the problem in the early climb out with the 26 volt instruments doing whacky things.

The inverter switch is a 3 position switch with 1 being up, 2 down and off in the middle. The avionics master switch is right next to it, to the right. 2 positions. On (up) and off (down).

It would be very easy under stress to dive across the cockpit ( both switches are FO side ) and feel for the inverter switch in the 1 position (up), but actually feel the avionics switch in the 'on' position, which would feel exactly the same, and believe you were moving the inverter switch to the 2 position, but really swiching the avionics master to the down position. Ie, off.

Transponder stops squawking at this instant and now you've got nothing.

[lilflyboy262]

I wrote a few questions last night that didnt end up posting due to my slow crappy african internet but I see Das just half answered one of my questions in how easy would it have been to sort this situation out as a single pilot.

I've never been in a metro before, let alone flown one, so I have no knowledge of this aircraft. And this is in no way a finger pointing exercise but for me to find out and learn from this, should this ever happen to me in the future.

Complacency bites pilots a lot when they are doing the same thing over and over. My current job does that and sometimes things get forgotten in a 18 sector day and running behind schedule, Ie not selecting flaps for takeoff or forgetting to put the fuel condition levers in high idle.

So my questions are:-

1) As ThePaperBoy pointed out, there will be two beta lights illuminated on the panel (Even more obvious since its night), but if this is the case, shouldn't there have been 4 lights showing on the panel as he lined up?

Unless of course there wasn't a pause and no lineup checks completed, instead just rolled onto and blasted off the runway without ever putting the plane in beta. (I have been guilty of this before... See my above paragraph)

I'm guessing as the throttles are advanced, then the beta lights would go out? Why then would you continue a roll with the remaining lights (the AC lights) illuminated on the panel?

2) And a stupid question, but all planes are different and some have some real weird things going on.
Would this problem have been fixed had he selected the inverter to the correct settings?
Meaning that it doesnt require some shut down of all electrics before you can "reboot" everything.

[das Uber Soldat]

I wont comment on point #1, there but for the grace of god go I etc.

Point 2, IF, and its a big IF, that was the situation, going to inverter #2 would more or less instantly bring the 26 volt instruments back on line.

[ThePaperBoy]

Depending on the power and speed lever combination, the SRL amber warning lights right next to the AC BUS lights will illuminate during the taxi. Out of the corner of one's eye, it is again possible for a pilot to think the SRL lights are on, when in fact the AC lights are actually illuminated during the entire taxi.

When lined up and once the speed levers are set to HIGH the only amber lights left should be the BETA lights until a higher power setting has been achieved.

We're not pointing the finger at the pilot (we don't even know if this is what caused the AC bus to be inop), but hopefully there are some lessons newer Metro pilots can learn from this speculation.

[Centaurus]

Level out at 3000ft over the ocean and the somatogravic illusion would be terrible with a Metro under acceleration and none of the previously mentioned instruments available

There is no shortage of aviation medicine articles on so-called `Somatographic Illusion`.

What I cannot understand why hundreds of aeroplanes from F18 Hornets on aircraft carriers to Boeing and Airbus types are not crashing shortly after lift off every day in IMC or at night. The accelleration on these aircraft is impressive, yet in the past we are told some GA aircraft crashes (A Baron was one, I recall) were possibly due to a somatogravic illusion affecting the pilot. Are some pilots medically more susceptible to this illusion than others?

[NOSIGN]

General aviation pilots willing to pay a few dollars to hire a synthetic trainer for an hour a month, will quickly discover good training value. Simply fail the AH and practice limited panel manoeuvres without hurting yourself. It is all about scan technique - and more important, it is currency.


Centaurus, I would care to add...

"The emplyoyer of a commercial GA Pilot should allow for the provision of a synthetic trainer for an hour per month ..." i.e. should provide this training free of charge to the Pilot.

[bentleg]

What I cannot understand why hundreds of aeroplanes from F18 Hornets on aircraft carriers to Boeing and Airbus types are not crashing shortly after lift off every day in IMC or at night

Possibly because the pilots correctly monitor the instruments as they climb out.