EK B777 Upgrade Delayed

[pitoss]

On my ALC last week the TRE told me that the B777 upgrades are going to be delayed. Apparently, this is being informed to the F/O at the upgrade interview. Can any F/O doing the interview confirm this? Could anyone else confirm? Does it mean even more DECs?

pitoss

[Fart Master]

Dunno, but I know EGT failed 6 or 7 guys a couple of weeks ago at their interviews:uhoh:

[puff m'call]

EGT's being FCUKer, he's turning the FOM into a recall item and asking the most stupid questions. :=

Damm good F/O's are being failed who really do know their stuff. EGT also thinks he's some kind of psychologist sending people for anger management and psycho tests, if anyone need the psycho he does!

He needs to be jumped on big time and bringing down a peg or two. :E

[GMDS]

Could it be the first sign of too low experience when joining? Just reciting the FOM has little to do with airmenship and just exposes the interrogators incompetence.:{

Could it be the first sign of not enough trainers? Just outsourcing the training does not seem to help .......:=

Could it be the first sign of too many hours but not enough manoevers for FOs with the ULR flying? Just wait until the FOs will HAVE to do the rare landing and they'll just shift the problem to the LH seat .......:}

Could it be that they have to reassess the numbers, as some very disturbed pax-friends of one of our top-shots seem to have discovered that for quite a while enroute the only skipper is burried behind 300 Y-pax who will very readily and politely let him pass during a decompression or smoke in the cabin......:ugh::ugh::ugh:
(Apparently TC is not happy with that aswell, allthough he is the architect of this tragedy, as HE ordered to change the location of the bunk!!!)
This might call for a increase of skippers, but it will take a lot of brainstorming for EK to discover that and might end up with more DECs, as they think this is the faster and cheaper way......

It starts biting them!

[atiuta]

Why do people assume that a low pass rate at command interview equates to a poor interviewer? Anyone that has been around will know the history and not see it as any great surprise.

[puff m'call]

But that doesn't apply to them all atiuta, one of them is an SFI and knows his stuff and like many others gave up a command to come here.

EGT has a big problem with his lack of management skills and peoples careers are a risk because of it. :ugh:

Something should be done.

[kingpost]

GMDS

What crap are you talking about, TC would have been behind the layout of the aircraft and the savings of one million US on the front crew compartment.

You do have a point though regarding the experience, all these commuter chaps are in for a shocker when they approach EGT!! Lets face it, the standard of pilot recruited has dropped off in the passed two years, EGT has his standards and good for him that he's sticking to them, unlike the recruitment dept. Personally I don't have a problem with it, it only takes one to mess the whole place up!

[GoreTex]

who is EGT? not the east german ****** or is he?

[Ahad Adump]

Heard the EGT got a 3 in his last PPC. (Old forms phase 5)

No wonder he invented the no over-all grade PPC format.

Hehehe

[Gulf News]

This is a case of reaping what you sow and weakness in the recruitment department some three/four years ago is coming home to roost. AAR removed the Pilot recruitment manager and replaced him with a very pleasant but totally useless TAT who subsequently retired. During his tenure the bar was dropped significantly and training were the first witnesses to the drop in quality.

A lot of the pilots recruited during that period were ok First Officers given a bit of training, but needed a lot of work when it came to promotion. The training department was then denied the resources to deal with the extra training required so these guys were allowed to muddle along. Admittedly weaknesses should have been picked up during re-currents and ALCs but with the the training department under pressure a lot would have been allowed to slip past in the "minimum acceptable" category. Statements like " it wasn't pretty but I guess it was safe" were common amongst trainers.

I am not in any way condoning a system where an individual is judge and jury with regard to a colleagues career however someone has to have the balls to stand up ensure that the training departments strained recourses are not further wasted on an upgrade candidate who isn't up to the task.

As a TRI of many years I would probably struggle to concisely answer some of the questions asked at the interviews but I would be able to put together a convincing case as to why I need not have that particular information on instantaneous recall. There is no excuse however for not being prepared. The guys know what is coming so should get in the books and do some ground work. Being an SFI, TRI, TRE does not immunize anyone from any requirements, in fact that individual should be expected to perform to a higher standard.

Additionally it appears that there have been a number of incidents on the line that none of us are privy to which has caused the word to come from above that we cannot afford to have weak captains in the airline. This has caused a tightening all round which although a knee jerk reaction is well overdue. I hope this level of policing and required knowledge is extended to the DECs joining the company.

[GMDS]

GMDS

What crap are you talking about, TC would have been behind the layout of the aircraft and the savings of one million US on the front crew compartment.


I don't get your point ....
What I meant is that it was TCs decision to scrap the nice front bunk, which would allow a skipper to rest in either a seat or bunk and be able to rejoin the cockpit in a matter of seconds. Undoubtedly he will fail to even show up there in case of a rapid deco or smoke in the cabin, when resting in the torpedo tube having 300+ panicking pax inbetween.
As now it becomes more and more apparent that a too high number of FOs need a lot more time, training and experience to upgrade, it shows that having two of them in the driver seat and the skipper trapped in the rear coffin might not be what the company wanted the public to know. And everything, every little incident eventually comes out and such a safety sensitive issue is very detrimental to a company's reputation, especially among frequent and upper class flyers.
We might end up with either two skippers on a 3 men flight, or a seat behind the cockpit, to calm some customers or regulators. But both solutions will evaporate the initial saving of 1mio$ for the rear bunk quite rapidly.

As I always said: Greed inevitably ends up in higher cost, if the decision makers are biased either by incompetence, ignorance, arrogance, corruption or pure and simple greed.
With such issues it makes a lot of sense to take advice from the professionals who will work with the system. EK has a lot of such pros with experience from former operations. But like a silly wise-a** teenager, arrogance prevails to the result that the pros involved lose motivation and just sing along the looney tune and everything ends up costing heaploads more.

"WTF" the mismanagers might think, our bonus stays the same, we just cut the one for the employees .....

[ShockWave]

Determining an upgrade candidates suitability from an interview in the office by a group of individuals who are simply unqualified to do this is a f_cking embarrassment.
Quizzing someone on their memory abilities regarding the FOM 4-5 month before their course is a total waste of time. IT IS NOT a MEMORY ITEM! It is a REFERENCE MANUAL!

Do we quizz DECs on their knowledge of the FOM before we employ them? Or do we let the training department assess their knowledge and understanding at a more appropriate time?

F/Os have been under training and examination from GCAA and EK approved TRIs and TREs many times prior to them being recommended for upgrade. They have a fully documented history of their strengths and weaknesses. Interview them if there have been problems and some doubt still remains, otherwise let their records determine their suitabillity and trust the judgment of your training department.

[Billy Madrid]

Lets face it, most (not all) DEC's would not pass an EK upgrade course, if they had to do one!

[jet999]

Some very pointed remarks and comments here without much real information. EK needs commanders but will not drop a basic standard. I agree it is not a memory test but F/O's about to very shortly be commanders need to know where the information is and who to call. At least 2 candidates failed 5 out of 6 basic questions. One could not even read a flight plan correctly. The interview is a confirmation of a place on the course and not a selection. The SFI fell embarassingly into the 'don't know' category raising serious doubts about his ability.
Outsourcing TRE and TRI training is for the core course. EK still trains and checks against an international standard, externally audited and government checked. Currently there are sufficient TRE's and TRI's except for July when there are 7 short for 2 weeks in the programme.
The pass rate on command courses is 82%, one of the highest in the longhaul industry. Everybody gets 2 go's. The trouble is, when a guy fails either a course, check or interview they tend to blame the system rather than themselves.
All DEC's (and EK are not actively seeking DEC's at the moment) have to pass an upgrade course session, 3 LOS and and LOE and be passed by a TRE competent. Their course is actually much harder than a F/O who then upgrades.

[kingpost]

Jet99

You're talking crap. The DEC course is no where near as difficult as an upgrade course. The LOS's for the DEC's are scripted, why, because if they we're you would have a very high failure rate.

You cannot compare the two courses and interviews. EK has two different systems and what's scary is that some DEC's have never done LOS or LOE. I believe that both should be treated equally but such is not the case.

I do however have no sympathy for someone who fails his command interview, they believe they should be given it. For an SFI to fail, I'm not surprised, he thinks he knows how to do certain exercises in the sim HOWEVER someone like him should be flying the line and getting experience to become a captain, he created this himself.

Like I said before, EK has not recruited the same sort of experience over the last 3 years. Before that we had 744, 738 and 777 joining, after that is was commuters from the states or charter outfits (UK Charter Co are an exception) - no offense, but the fact is that there just isn't any experience, commonsense and initiative there. May this be a lesson to all who think they are to be given a command, pull your finger OUT do some work and you'll get what you deserve.

[145qrh]

Jet 999, unless you were in the interview with the EGT then you are following the classic EK "rumours" becoming "news" story line.

DEC's dont do 3 LOS and 1 LOE, the pass rate is higher than 82%. And if you thinks EK is an airline with high standards then you are a fool ( I should know I slipped thro the net:confused:).

As far as the command interview process goes , to have an untrained bufoon with poor to non-existant man managemant skills having the final say with no right of appeal or re-trial , unless you wait 6 months or longer if HE feels that way inclined is a joke.

If someone passes the interview and then fails the upgrade, what does it prove??? and if someone fails interview, passes on re-test and passes upgrade what does that prove?....sweet f@#k all...is the answer.

As far as I know no-one has failed Upgrade because of poor FOM or Tech knowledge :- poor decision making, poor handling , lack of confidence ..a big yes , not sure if that can accurately be assesed in an interview by the EGT or any other office based wallah.

Sorry for the rant but EK has some very good people , alas in the wrong positions, and even worse some very bad people in the very worst places and if I appear to have it in for our East German friend then you would be right, have had other dealings with him, not a pleasant or rewarding experience.

The training dept. is the place where UG should be decided, in a fair and totally transparent way, they after all have looked after and groomed the F/o's for several years before the big swap.

Sorry day dreaming, open and honest are two words that will never be used in the same sentence as EK management.....ever:ugh::ugh:

[uplock]

I agree with 145qrh Jet 999 unless you were a fly on the wall there was only EGT and the candidate in the office, stop making out you know what went on else you would also have Some very pointed remarks and comments

[GMDS]

Even if 82% upgrade passing rate is considered high or low by industry standard, I stand by my comment:

If EK operates with 1 Capt and 2 FOs on a lot of routes and burries the resting skipper in a remote coffin with guaranteed "no show" in case of a major problem, then the crew and passengers should only accept close to 99% passing rate at the upgrade. Else EK itself admits to a high probability that two pilots sit up front for a long time over remote locations with inadequate skills. No more and no less.

If such a high number of upgrade applicants display a lack of fundamental knowledge, then the recruitement AND training departement have failed. You need to recruit adequate applicants with sufficient basic knowledge and skills. Then you need to continue to train them as to have them "skipper-ready" when they take the left seat as relief pilots. The numbers seem to show that this is not the case. As simple as that.

Just what can we do to improve the situation?

[chainsaw]

jet999.......

EK still trains and checks against an international standard, externally audited and government checked.

OK I'll bite.......please tell me

1. who is the external audit company you're referring to?
2. to what standard are they auditing to (and if the answer's IATA IOSA then you really need a rethink on: i) the so-called IOSA standard(s), and ii) the so-called qualification of the any IOSA auditors.............simply jet999, the so-called IOSA audit standard is QUESTIONABLE!
3. who were the auditors? (see 2 above)
4. what were the qualifications and experience of the auditors? (you'd be surprised at the lack of experience AND qualifications of some of the clowns who are supposedly doing these audits!)
5. were the government standards in accordance with international standards and recommended practices (ICAO Annexes)?
6. were the government inspectors properly qualified AND trained to conduct oversight inspections? (many aren't jet999)
7. has the State regulatory authority undergone an ICAO USOAP audit?
8. was the State considered to be in compliance with ICAO standards and recommended practices as a result of the USOAP Inspection?

The so-called 'mantle' offered by an external audit is pretty-well useless in 99% of cases jet999.

I've been asked to do a follow-up audit after the so-called experts have been in jet999, and you could drive a damn steam train through the holes that exist after the so-called 'experts have been in and charged $000s for their so-called expertise. :mad:

[Fork Handles]

I was offered a dec position. Im not accepting it for reasons other than mentioned on these forums.

I have a few friends who have upgraded or are upgrading, maybe one of them was a fail who knows.I do know that I operate to at least the same standard as these chaps and as for experience, well pre EK they were not exactly flitting across the atlantic in the winter in a big boeing. Puddle jumping would be more appropiate.
The point I am making is that maybe ,just maybe there is a superiority complex existant. Not all are suitable, despite the magical three years at EK which, to read here endows the recipient with levels of skills and default airmanship that put the rest of the world to shame.Simply not so.

Had I taken the job , i would be confident of pasing all and any course on my dodgy DEC ability, and judging by some of my mates that have passed, an upgrade course as well.:p
Gents you are in danger of having a very "flat earth" mentalty.

I am in agreement on one point in that it is easy to fail anyone if you WANT to however being an FSI where you control a session is not the same as controlling a situation and doesnt make them better in anyway. You would think the book knowledge would have been sharper though. Only based on what I have read here.:cool:

[Kamelchaser]

In response to an ASR about the Captain not feeling comfortable resting in the CRC while he left two FO's to manage the flight, management commented that they considered all FOs to be of command standard, and therefore it wasn't an issue.

And five minutes later these same FOs are failing the infamous "knowledge" test?

Surely that would indicate the Captain who filed the ASR in the first place has a valid point?

[Ramboflyer 1]

Dont forget to mention the phone in the 777 bunk is not very loud and many pilots do not wake up with just a call. In an emergency you cannot always spare a cabin crew to go wake up the captain. Im all for paxing in First class.

[jet999]

I never intended to get into a discussion about who was right or wrong on the forum. I simply stated the facts of what is actually happening. By all means invent whatever you wish, for whatever reason you see fit but it may put some people off what is essentially a straightforward selection/interview/ upgrade/FLC test.
It is important to be factual and not listen to the one or two ramblers who, for various reasons, did not get a pass first time. Most pass second time and nearly all rate the process well afterwards.
Good luck to the 8 in May.

[Billy Madrid]

Gents,
Why in emirates do some Captains seem to think less of our F/o's.
Basically the only reason most of these guys are F/o’s and you are a Captain is because you joined before them. Thats all. Date of joining. We have some of the most experienced F/o’s in any airline, with most having had commands before joining Emirates.

Now Being a Captain in emirates is not easy but it's not because of our F/o's, it because we get no support from company. One of the things that makes it possible to operate in these conditions is having an experienced F/o sitting next to me.

I've flown with another Captain (DEC by the way) on a ULR that put in ASR about turbulence and 2 F/o's etc and to be honest from what I saw I'd rather have two F/o's than him sitting there any day.
I find it all a bit Old school (BOAC/SAA).
Try treating your F/o as a captain in waiting and not as some incompetent and you might just learn something.

As for the crew rest in the boeing/airbus. It’s in the wrong place and we all know it. Not because of our F/os but because we need two seat’s (Day time) and access to a toilet with out having to wait 20 mins and stand knee deep in whatever that liquid is on the floor!

I wondered why Boeing said that the forward crew rest with seats allowed for more revenue. It’s because most other airlines block two Business class seats for crew when there is only a bunk for rest. (Virg/BA /UAL etc!)

Old school captains and DEC’s feel free to shoot me down.

Billy

[145qrh]

Jet 999.

You are obviously a helpful sort of chap....but don't and I repeat don't pass off what you said in your earlier post as fact....gossip , rumour ,hearsay by all means but not fact.:=:=

If we had facts or truth for that matter from our DSVP EK FLT OPS DSO VD and etc,etc life could be a bit simpler.

but some of our senior "managers", in the loosest possible use of the word, actively pass out wrong info to try and divide and loosen the collective workforce. We are so busy discussing bullshot that the bad news gets passed with barely a murmur.. :yuk:

They think its a bit of a wheeze to see how long it takes to come back to them that we will get 50% and 6 months bonus, after they told someone about what they heard from Maurice,TC,Ed,Al Uncle TOm Cobley and all , about record bonus and unbelievable pay rise.

Disinformation.....Miss Information and down right lies.:ugh::ugh:

Just a few of the treats that our new hires get too look forward too as they while away their time in the 30R undershoot..

[Internationalpilot]

Hy gents.... sorry but I think you are going out of topic.
The thread started about upgrades being delayed not on the quality of training ( By the way... what training..?) or the process of upgrading it self...(... they should call it obedience, patience and memory test ..and again no training...)
So please can somebody tell me if this delay story is true?
Because if it is true and I will be dalayed just only a week I will accellerate the process of getting the fkuk out of this place.
If it is true this is becoming a real fraud...along with the crappy pay, accomodotion crap and Dubai as a whole ....

[jumbo1]

IP
Are you really going to leave just because your command has been delayed by a week? or a month? or 3 months? Where else in the world do you get a widebody command in 3 years (or less if eligible?)
In the context of your whole career what difference does a week make or a month or three?
Sometimes I think people need a reality check. You need to get out of the sandpit more often mate! Will do you good to chill a bit. It will all come together when it does. They need you so be patient.
Not trying to have a go at you by the way.
Good luck when you do start and see you on the line
J
:ok:

[typhoonpilot]

Because if it is true and I will be dalayed just only a week I will accellerate the process of getting the fkuk out of this place.
If it is true this is becoming a real fraud...along with the crappy pay, accomodotion crap and Dubai as a whole ....


A one week delay to an upgrade on a B777 at a reasonably good job and that is the reason for leaving :confused:

Just a little perspective on upgrade time lines for you. When a company tells you that upgrades are happening at three years ( or four years, or whatever ) that is what is occuring at the moment. Any projection told to somebody joining an airline is just that, it's only a projection based on current plans. There are many variables in this projection. Aircraft orders, aircraft delivery delays, economic conditions, war, mergers, etc will all affect whether the projection stays even remotely close.

Five years ago a group of us were discussing upgrade times at EK and came to the conclusion that the 3-4 year to command idea was only a reasonable certainty if you were hired inside seniority number 1000. We were wrong, EK have surprised to the upside ( in most cases ). Two years ago I calulated upgrades out for possible new joiners and started advising guys that a decision to join should be based on a 5 to 7 year time frame. Again, I was wrong. Guys hired two years ago will still see an upgrade inside 4 years.

One of these guys who is "delayed" on his B777 upgrade is my neighbor. He joined in October 2005. His class has been moved back two months, but he's still starting the upgrade one month before his 3rd year anniversery. Oh, the humanity of it all !!! :rolleyes:



Typhoonpilot

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Typhoonpilot,

Thank you for that insightful look at the reality of things in relation to upgrade times.

It's nice that you have this perspective where others do not and for sharing this information with the rest of us.

Because quite frankly, I feel like a mushroom here sometimes at EK, in that I get kept in the dark and get fed bulls**t.

I don't mean from management either, but from some of my good colleagues here on this forum.

[jumbo1]

Sheikh it easy,
If you take what you read on this forum as gospel then I worry for you chum. It's a site for disgruntled Ek folks to deter new arrivals so they can get a big pay raise. (well thats the logic of some anyway)
Some folks air legit issues but they inevitably get hijacked by others who are more interested in spelling mistakes and shooting their colleagues down in flames for all and sundry. Somewhere in between will lie a semblance of truth. Read between the lines and make of it what you will, but please don't make career decisions based on an internet forum - if you do then you deserve what you get.
I hope I spellchecked properly but will sit quietly and await the incoming......
:ouch:

[whossorrynow]

A thought for the 35+ Airbus F/Os who have been at EK for over 4 years and are still firmly seated on the right side (opposite of left that is).

Up to 18 months of command salary and seniority lost or gained at the whim of a fleet planners secretary.

Ah, the lottery of life at EK.

[casio man]

"Ah, the lottery of life at EK"

And how does that differ from the rest of life? Sheesh!:=

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Jumbo 1,

Thanks for your "compassion" which I did not ask for. I was paying Typhoonpilot a compliment personally for his contribution to this post and this had nothing to do with you. So please keep your personal comments about how I make my personal decisions to yourself..."chum."

To be true I came to this website before I joined and went against popular forum opinion of not joining Emirates and joined anyway...so your shots in the dark are way off.

I think Tyhoonpilot has something valid to say and right or wrong, it's a fresh persperctive and I happen to appreciate positive people who have something good to say.

But that's me personally. You may be totally different and I respect that but don't slag me for something I perceive to be a fair post.

[correamd11]

Ladies,
Let's stop grumping and come back to the thread.
It's not about quality of training or experience and knowledge of FO's.
But apparently what happened is that someone from the Planning Dept f#$% up and 12 courses have been cancelled - postponed if you so wish.
There will be a course in the end of May and then next will be in September.
And I agree 100% with Typhoon: what is 3 months for one who's been waiting for years?
And Madrid's correct: there are FO's here with more than 15000 hours on 744, MD11, 767 and so on, who are not on the left hand seat simply because of the company's requirements and policies. Which are ok as well, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
And let's not forget our chaps on the Bus who have to wait even longer - also because of a poor planning.
Keep the blue side up fellows.:cool: