Merged: Nomad Return?

[Trojan1981]

I Just read in Aero magazine that Gippsland Aeronautics has purchased the GAF Nomad type certificate and is considering putting the aircraft back into production with a Glass cocpit, RR 250-B17F engines and other upgrades. Can't find a net link or info on GA site. Does anyone know any more? Think a market exists for this A/C?

[Peter Fanelli]

Yep, market is right up there with the one for the A380.

[Capt Wally]

Sounds like a plan. Like a lot of poorly made cars, given to the japs & you would have a terrific car. Give the Nomad to Gipps aero's & you might very well have a great plane. Go George!:ok: They would need to do one thing tho, change the crew seats from camping chairs to at least wooden fruit boxes !:E


CW

[yowie]

Wasn't at least one of the Gippy principles at GAF the first time around?

[Capt Wally]

'yowie' yeah me thinks yr right there, I know GM is now but might have been a little guy with a limp back at GAF?



CW

[marty1468]

The Nomad is an awesome airplane. I flew in the two at Tindal loads in the early 90's. All Gippsland need to do is fix the problem with cracking in the tail section and they will have a great plane and that'll fix the safety record as well.:ok:

[Buster Hyman]

I'll wait for the Block 5 version of the Boomerang before passing judgement!

[hoggsnortrupert]

It is my understanding that it is being repowerd with a pair of V8 holden engine's, A new Swept wing, A welded Tail section, and an 60 lb lead weight on a slidding transverse under floor beam, that will travel from the Nose to the aft locker::E:}:oh:

Chr's
H/Snort.:ok:

[empacher48]

In all the years which our company have been operating nomads we have never had a problem with the tailplane cracking.. But then again we don't do all that many high powered ground runs either. Can't wait for the final mod from Boeing to pass CASA certification, then we can use full flap again!

But what an awesome aircraft to fly! :ok:

[hoggsnortrupert]

Quote empacher48: In all the years which our company have been operating nomads we have never had a problem with the tailplane cracking.. But then again we don't do all that many high powered ground runs either.

Then how do you know the noisey bits on the wing are going to produce rated power! maybe its just done when you arn't around! :E

Chr's
H/Snort.

[tinpis]

Some brakes please on the new ones
Waddya mean the seats was crook? Everyone that had to sit in em on 5 hour flights remarked how they held up well comfort and cool wise in the Tropics
N24 certainly was a handy size cabin

[empacher48]

Then how do you know the noisey bits on the wing are going to produce rated power! maybe its just done when you arn't around!

One of them has just been through the turbine enhancement for the B17, and on the bench both got over 500 hp! (according to standard aero) :E But we do have a "poor mans" trend monitoring program in place to monitor engine performance and we do engine ground runs, as required, and under supervision of the CEO.. (well he does own them as well, so he doesn't want to see them break!)

[RadioSaigon]

Sounds good to me! Never did have the opportunity to strap one on in the past, but I've heard heaps of good things about them from those who have... would be good to get a crack at them I reckon!

empacher48: do you fly out of NZTL for one RR? Given the aircraft mix on your profile, comments re boss and Nomad... one wonders ;) Used to be NZWF based myself. Seems RR is one of the few operators to have had a consistently good run with the Nomads -got to be doing something right I reckon! Got a lot of respect for that operation. Say gidday to the boys from an ex-EVT driver!

[empacher48]

do you fly out of NZTL for one RR?

I'll leave that to your imagination ;)

RR is one of the few operators to have had a consistently good run with the Nomads

Not just the Nomads either, its sad that two of his old Turbo 207s seem to struggle to make it to Overhaul without new cylinders since they left the company, when they worked in Tekapo they all went to Overhaul without problems.

Say gidday to the boys from an ex-EVT driver

I'll pass that on next time I see them. :ok:

[Trojan1981]

It is my understanding that it is being repowerd with a pair of V8 holden engine's, A new Swept wing, A welded Tail section, and an 60 lb lead weight on a slidding transverse under floor beam, that will travel from the Nose to the aft locker Just goes to show they would probably need a good marketing team to pull it off.

Wasn't there an AD issued regarding the tail cracking? however the ADF din't carry out the work and this resulted in several fatal accidents?
I was only in my early teens watching this on 60 minutes at the time so I don't know what actually happened.

[Flyingblind]

Not too sure of the exact story but i think the ADF aircraft were nicknamed the 'Widow maker' and a few ADF pilots threatened to black ban the aircraft untill the Government adressed their concerns.

Hopefully somebody with the good oil on this situation can provide some substance to the earlier issues?

[bushy]

The Nomad was specifically built for the military, and they did not sell many to civilians. The public thought the RFDS used lots of nomads, but it was only the Broken Hill base that used them. I think they had two of them.
The nomad had a good sized cabin, a low floor and a big door so they were easy to load stretchers into.
When the Blackhawk became available for the military the nomad became far too dangerous for the military, but civilians could manage them ok. Funny that.
If they changed that draggy wing so it could go faster it could be a good aircraft. That may fix some of the tail problems too.

[flying-spike]

"Wasn't there an AD issued regarding the tail cracking? however the ADF din't carry out the work and this resulted in several fatal accidents?
I was only in my early teens watching this on 60 minutes at the time so I don't know what actually happened."

Factually Incorrect

I was in the Australian Army when they were introduced, maintained them as a trady. Endorsed on them as a pilot and involved in the mod program.

They had problems but were a very capable aircraft when they were used for what they were designed for. Just ask RR. If GA do their research and I am sure they will, and they make the appropriate changes, then the "new" Nomad will go gangbusters.

[marty1468]

Also the military were driving the Nomads through manouvres that were obviously a lot more stressful on the airframe than the civvies would have done to them. I have been in the back of one of the Tindal beasties when we did a few wing over type manouvres and hugging the earth to stay away from the fighters. All good fun but pretty hard on the plane. I'm sure the ARMY nomads would have copped similar or more.

[Lodown]

Never flew one. That being said, I was of the understanding they could land into some very, very short strips, but the practical requirements for design meant the engines were smaller than initially intended on the finished product and the aircraft couldn't take off from very, very short strips.

[empacher48]

From what I've heard from the guys at Boeing (formerly ASTA formerly GAF) who were over here testing the flap mod, that the army did work them hard and did a lot of things that civilian Nomads would not be subjected to (sounds fairly typical for most military aircraft). But the problem with the flutter of the aileron/flap system was just slop developing through the clever system for the aileron/spoiler set up. But the new mod has stiffened that up considerably - to the point where at full flap instead of the flaps being blown back to 34 degrees in flight, they are only blown back to 36 degrees.

If only the N24s had the same infinite flap settings as on the N22.

[Flyingblind]

Had the distinct pleasure of sitting in the LHS whilst conducting a Air Drop sortie over Londonderry in the early ninetys, the whole thing was held together with 1000 mile an hour tape and, boy did she 'shake rattle and roll'

Still, had the feel of a good aircraft. can still remember the smell and eyewatering effect of the cabin getting full of engine exhaust fumes entering through the open cargo door when on the ground.

Happy days.

[Buster Hyman]

a few wing over type manouvres and hugging the earth to stay away from the fighters
:}:}:}
Sorry, I know its a serious & genuine necessity but...I just had this mental image of an SU-30 "chasing" a Nomad at treetop level! Would you use a missile, or wait for it to shake itself apart???:}

[Stationair8]

Best way to get turbine time!!!

[Arm out the window]

There seem to be a couple of points of confusion here, perhaps I can add to it!

First, I'd be very surprised if the defence force ones were deliberately flown outside flight manual limits.

Re the reason some defence pilots didn't like them; as I heard it, at some flap settings, bad airframe vibrations occurred and basically guys refused to fly them for that reason.

As I understand it, the tragic South Aust tailplane separation accident was attributed in part to stress from lengthy high power ground running for test purposes in combination with some deficiencies in airframe inspection procedures.

[tipsy2]

Nice to see "Arm out the window" has got the correct handle regarding Army compliance with the Flight Manuals and in relation to GD's accident in the ARDU Nomad.

The Nomad was influenced/tampered with by politics throughout its 'checkered career'. Perhaps one of the lesser known instances was the friction between the RAAF who believed they were the only knowledgable entity with regard to military aviation and the Army. The RAAF were about to lose control of the battlefield helicopter/s to the Army and not surprisingly the RAAF were not amused. A senior RAAF Test Pilot at ARDU (not GD who was Army) wrote a particularly scathing report on the Nomad that perpetuated the the RAAF notion that they were the only people who new anything about military aviation. The military use was thus restricted as a consequence of this report, even some Army people believed its findings. Mind you the Nomad was not perfect (no such beast) but the aircrafts future was from that moment on severly tainted and pretty much set up for failure.

I would not be surprised if there was influence exerted by government entities for the Nomad to be taken up and operated by Army as an Australian home grown product.

I do know many who did not like the aircraft, mostly because of the way they were made to operate it and yes because of some of its own failings as well.

tipsy
who had a heart flutter when he read the thread title, maybe it was just the tailplane:ok:

[Trojan1981]

I was in the Australian Army when they were introduced, maintained them as a trady. Endorsed on them as a pilot and involved in the mod program.

They had problems but were a very capable aircraft when they were used for what they were designed for. Just ask RR. If GA do their research and I am sure they will, and they make the appropriate changes, then the "new" Nomad will go gangbusters.

Fair enough. I hope they do well. I wasn't sure about the ADF involvement as I was only young, but after having several mates involved in helicopter accidents (at least one due to poor maintenance) during my relativley short service I would not have been suprised.

[tinpis]

Three years flying the bloody things nothing stopped or fell orf :uhoh:

Remember one came thru Darwhine on the way back from oop North(Thai?) where they had fixed a Vulcan or something on the floor to fire out the rear door
Muzzle blast apparently split the flaps skins :hmm:

[walschaert valve]

I seem to remember a slight involvement with that in the early '80s. Hawker Pacific replaced a lot of the structure under the floor with 4130 so a "gatling gun" could be installed by the Thais, think it was the Thai Navy. Don't know if a gatling gun is the same as a Vulcan.

Good airframe really but all that 4130 under the floor would have been the strongest part. Would have weighed a bit too.

[tinpis]

Indeed Mr Valve it was a young man from Hawkers delivering it in about 82-3?

[walschaert valve]

I didn't go with any of the aircraft going to Thailand but a few of my apprentice mates did. They took in a lot of culture when they were there apparently.
We did some interesting mods to Nomads in those days. I can't remember how many aircraft went through the hangar, seem to recall the Thai Army took 20 N22s and the Thai Navy took four N24s. There were Phillipine ones as well.

[myshoutcaptain]

perhaps one such mod

http://www.aeroplaneart.com.au/Images/JSJ_GAF_N_22_T_Tail.jpg

[walschaert valve]

Sorry Tinpis, you probably meant the pilot. In those days I think Rod Mendham usually did the ferry flights.

Heard about the T tail mod but didn't see it. John Stewart Jones at what used to be HSJ at Bankstown has a lot of "what might have been" information on the Nomad. I don't think the T tail ever flew, someone else may know better.

[BULLDOG 248]

Wasn't there a weight issue from the original drawings and designs that put it way too heavy....... So GAF had to use thinner skin and in doing so had structual problems???

[coolchange666]

Just had to recount a Nomad experience of mine...
returning to Moresby in one of the Douglas Nomads I decided to see how short a landing could be... no traffic behind... no loading.. touched down on start of the threshold markers for 32L and had stopped by the END of the threshold markers. The amazingly short landing distance scared the bejeesus outa me. As I had stopped well short of the first taxyway exit I apologised to the tower controller for the extra time on the runway.. and he said "Cripes mate, that is not a problem, we all thought you'd landed gear up!!"

Wouldn't go near one again with a ten foot pole but had 800 hours of fun with 'em back in the day....

[essbee]

I was doing an endorsement in one when the instructor decided to show me what they could do......We came over the threshold at 1000', threw out the gear. full flap and flt idle, you push the stick full forward or you stall, we crashed dived rounded out landed and stopped all within I guess 200 mt.

If I hadn't been in the aeroplane I wouldn't have believed it.:ok:

[empacher48]

The Nomad is a great aeroplane and consider myself very lucky to have flown them! :)

We have a photo of the company's first Nomad (It was an N22), which was used as the demonstrator at Farnborough, upside down.. I'm not too sure if it is true or not but apparantly it was rolled as part of the display..

I'm sure there are people out there who will be able to correct me in that.

[tinpis]

Wheres that man that got the extra bit of cargo shoved in the arse end of the Douglas Nomad at Wewak? :}

[Mr Bomb]

Amazing the myths that perpetuate around this aircraft.

This aircraft was first designed for the civilian and military market. However the Aussie military wanted nothing to do with them. That was ok initially, however civilian sales were almost nonexistent. So along with the best traditions of politicians they forced them on the military that, as was said by tipsy2, were against being landed with them as it filled a gap in capability that simply did not exist!

The airframe that had the tail fall off was used extensively for testing in particular high power ground runs. A lot of these ground runs were asymmetric high powered runs. Now this may have been fine except for the fact that firstly they were never logged and secondly the actual affects of the stress from the ground runs on the airframe never really inspected. The ADF blamed GAF for the undocumented runs and likewise GAF blamed the ADF for the way the aircraft was operated...

As late as Jan/Feb 1997 (just as Boeing bought ASTA - and ASTA were making rudders and centre section fuselages for Airbus - but that is another story) I witnessed a destructive static load test on a modified Nomad tail section that went to 2.54 (IIRC) times the previous aircraft ultimate load before it failed. Was quite impressive, however this has nothing to do with the Nomad story, just thought I would chuck it in.

Anyway the Nomad story is one that was so politicised and had so much forced on it and expected of it, that it was simply doomed to failure. A lot of SE Asian militaries were very much interested in the aircraft, however our government of the time, that could see no future in an indigenous aircraft manufacturing capability basically shot that down before it even got off the ground. The final nail in the coffin was the failure of the tailplane and the loss of a Defence Force pilot. The aircraft was already doomed before this and it is a shame that this had to happen. Alas, along with a whole bunch of other Aussie designed aircraft there simply never was the political will and support for an Australian designed aircraft. Thus we now have an aircraft parts industry of which we do lead the world in a number of areas, but who knows what could have been.

However Australia did have a number of Nomads just "sitting" there at the end of all this and these were essentially gifted to SE Asian countries who from all accounts have simply loved the aircraft and have had no further dramas with it.

Mind you there is the flip side of the argument that Australia simply could never and would never be able to afford to develop aircraft that were competitive with the large manufacturers of today and in fact the government had a lot of foresight to essentially get out of the aircraft design business when it did before it sucked an inordinate amount of money from the Australian economy.

Anyway there is heaps to this story and it makes for very interesting and frustrating reading and leads to dreams of what possibly could have been a fully fledged aircraft design and manufacturing industry in Australia - for however long it lasted. The reason I say this is I am sure that even if we did have a proper aircraft manufacturing industry that had been supported, it would definitely have been privatised by the government and would have been subsumed as ASTA was under one of the big two aircraft manufacturers left in the world anyway, my humble opinion only.

Cheers
Mr B

[Dehavillanddriver]

it is interesting though that Australia - which has been at the forefront of aviation development since Pontious was a cadet pilot, has no real local aviation industry but Brazil has designed and produced (and continues to produce) designs such as the Tucano and Super Tucano (remember the Australian trainer project that got canned?), the Bandit (remember the Nomad - well sort of...) the Brazilia, the 145/135 family, the E Jets.

They do this in a far less technologically advanced society than we have, and they train their own using dedicated universities and technical training facilities.

They feed and transport their staff - of which there is something like 17000 at the SJK facility, and they are a massive contributor to the Brazilian economy

If anyone doesnt think there is value in a homegrown aviation industry look to South America - they are selling E Jets hand over fist and making a tidy profit thanks very much.

They do have, unlike us, have leaders who look beyond the election cycle and dont panic if it doesnt make a profit in the first 5 minutes

They take a long term view and have done so since the late 40's.

There is a lesson to be learnt if anyone with vision was willing to take a look

[tinpis]

They got cheap rum and the Samba http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/bananaguit.gif


I wonder what a new Nomad would cost?

[Trojan1981]

Maybe then GA will be able to make a go of it. Less/nil political interference, no ADF orders and a potential market in SE Asia. Some of those older nomads operated in Thailand and beyond must be getting a bit long in the tooth and if they were happy with the origional product it stands to reason they would be happy with an improved, new production version.

Does anyone know how the Nomad would compare to a Twotter? What about for PJ Ops?

[aileron_69]

What sort of speed will the old Nomads do? I reckon if they could get the new ones to cruise at about 150-160 comfortably they'd make a good survey aircraft. Prob a bit cheaper to run that a 406 too.

[Pinky the pilot]

Unfortunately this is the only photograph I have of the last Douglas Airways Nomad available at present but I'll post another 'in due course.'

T'was DND.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/expensivepiecesofscrapmetal.jpg[/IMG]

[flying-spike]

Beef up the tail, fuselage plug fore and aft in the N24 and strap 500-600 GGs a side (yes I am hinting at PT6A20s) and you will have a serious airplane. Imagine what it would have been like for the Army to have that configuration AND the Turbo Porters?...Next biggest mistake we made getting rid of them:{

[frontdoor]

Does anyone have any information on how Gippsland Aeronautics is travelling? Are they recording good sales for the Airvan.

[empacher48]

The Nomad is far better than the twotter, as far as a scenic flying machine it is concerned, the only other aircraft you could use is a Dornier 228 (but then you need two pilots, and its a bit quick!). Everybody has a window seat (which is important in scenic flying - you don't want people leaning over someone just to get a view!)

To be honest after operating the Nomad along side the C208B, the Grand Caravan is not all that great an aeroplane (the two B17s in the Nomad burn the same as the PT6 does in an average flight for us). Removing the capital cost out of both aircraft, the Nomad still is cheaper to run per hour than the Caravan, and you have two extra seats to make $$ from (in our configuration anyway).

I would hate to see the Nomad with a PT6, a more powerful RR250 would be fine!

What sort of speed will the old Nomads do?

We flight plan for 150kts, and they're quite happy to truck on doing that.

[the wizard of auz]

I saw a GAF Nomad parked up in Broome recently, and had a good old look at it. apart from looking like it would be a drama to nything over half hour legs at a time (the seats looked a bit.......Military) It looked like a good contender for the Caravan slot in the GA market. would be good to see how the numbers compare. wouldn't have all the ASEPTA dramas either.
How many seats are they in a normal configuration?. how would the weight and balance go with full seats?. what sort of range would you expect with full seats?, or conversly, how many seats could you fill with full fuel?.
I certainly would look at one if it could compete with the Grand Caravan in the 14 seat configuration. (the D228 looks good too, except for being slightly over the 5700KG limit..... all the Drama involved with that shy's one away from them)

[Tmbstory]

I personally watched the the above aircraft enter a high right base for the duty runway, it stalled, spun and after about five turns, crashed into the water. All the eleven persons on board were killed.

A very bad day for the people of Sabah and for aviation.


Tmb

[empacher48]

How many seats are they in a normal configuration?

We operate our N24s with 15 passenger seats, (14 in the cabin and one up the front) I believe it was certified to put 17 passengers on board.

How would the weight and balance go with full seats?. what sort of range would you expect with full seats?

Ours operate with 360kg of fuel on board, which is two hours worth, and can carry 15 pax with an average weight of 83kg, and we are at our VFR MAUW of 4264kg. MAUW IFR is 4145kg.

I just hope that with all the changes Gippsland Aeronautics are proposing, the empty weight doesn't increase too much!

[TWOTBAGS]

I just hope that with all the changes Gippsland Aeronautics are proposing, the empty weight doesn't increase too much!

I think that given the advances in composites in the last 30 years and current crop of integrated avionics systems with all the belles and whistles including synthetic vision will allow Gippsland to keep the weight growth to an absolute minimum.

The new Twin Otter has faced the issues and looks close to coming out at below 7500lb fully equipped including air-con through the use of these ideas.

[Pluto's gone]

New Twin Otter $4.2 mil USD, be interesting to see what a new Nomad configuration would cost. Then one can compare.

[aileron_69]

I'd say looking at the Airvan, and the advancements in technology Gippsland made there, a new Nomad should be heavier, slower, more uncomfortable to sit in, an have worse Ergonomics:E
Should still get off a short strip tho!!:ok:

[Dixons Cider]

I enjoyed my time sitting in the Gonad -a few quirks, but I enjoyed it all the same. As empacher said, unbeatable for scenic work.

How about the control feedback from the stabilator in turb :eek:

From what I understand, the original design philosophy had alot to do with the problems on the Nomad, especially in respect to the empennage area. The original design called for the entire aft end to hinge from the side of the fuse where the taper begins, the whole thing swinging to the side to allow unimpeded loading. As the design progressed the aft swinging tail had to be made lighter and lighter to cope with the swing. The design process was very late in the peice when it was finally decided to can the swing due to aft CG issues. The design basically froze at that point with the exception of the aft fuse being shut never to open again. The control runs etc are still routed down the hinge side of the fuse as they would've been.

So the Nomad we saw was dictated by that original design concept, hence the weight saving stabilator etc. As someone mentioned already, if a conventional empennage of composite construction and comparable weight were to appear on there...Maybe ditch the full span flaperons (awesome STOL idea, but needed in service?), in doing so the complicated spoiler/aileron mixer wouldn't be needed. Some beefed up RR's, some whizz bang weight saving screens up front...

They might be onto something. I'd get in one again.

[porch monkey]

Ther last dozen or so operated by the army already had glass cockpits. Most did about 100 to 200 hrs before being sent to our neighbors in the north.

[Coast.Watch]

Nomad huh? a great bird! 4,000 hrs plus on type, mostly in PNG. Few very long ferry flight as well. Great pilot seats when maintained properly, after a 6 hr plus surveillance flight, there was no pain.

[tio540]

Do we really need another slow, short field aircraft, built in one of the largest countries in the world?

Surely speed and payload, the Airvan or Nomad do not provide both, is a better proposition.

The Swiss and Brazilians are building fast, and great lifting machines. In the case of the PC12, short field as well.

I guess time will tell.:)

[the wizard of auz]

I seem to remeber seeing several parked up in Cebu, in various states of disrepair and disassembly. was hard to taxi past them and look where I was going. there was a couple of Heuys there as well.

[Stationair8]

At least if Gippsland Aero take the Nomad over, we won't have the joys of dealing with the union run and controlled GAF like in the good old days.

Talking to an old Nomad man he reckons they spares prices were okay until the "handling" fee was added on to the part which was something like $172.00 in the mid 1980's.

I suppose Gippsland will save a few pounds on the Nomad by not having a rudder trim like in the GA-8?

[walu]

I hope this project really succeeds as this is an excellent aircraft in need of a second life where it's capabilities can be exploited more fully. I'd like to see it on floats and giving the Twin Otter and Caravan a run for their money.
Australia should be producing products at the highest levels of aviation standards and the Nomad is fine example.
I've heard from Gippsland about their plans but it's not final yet by any means.
If I had a choice, I'd rather operate the Nomad than the Harbin Y12 or the new Twin Otter! Economics and design improvements will give the Nomad a serious advantage. It's a STOL aircraft and so shouldn't be compared with the plethora of light single turbines out there. Different horse for different courses after all!

[Knulp]

Nautilus operated a N22 on floats until 1995

[Pinky the pilot]

A derelict Douglas Airways Nomad in 1990.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/douglasairwaysnomad.jpg

An ADF Nomad at Kerema, Gulf Province PNG in 1990.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/raafnomad.jpg

Some somewhat cheeky graffitti on the fuselage of the ADF Nomad!
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/nomadgrafitti.jpg

[Flyingblind]

Thanks Pinky for those photos, i always like the Gomad in ADF colours.

What is it with PNG and photos of that era? i took a lot when there with Chinooks about 7 years after those photos and they turned out almost the same quality!

Is it the high humidity that corrupts the film in someway or are we just spoiled by the high resolution of modern cheap digital cameras?

Any one have an idea?

[Capt Wally]

:E...................yeah yr obviously getting older, $6 bucks ought to fix it down at the cheap shop for reading glasses:E
The same goes for porn pix, the ones from the 60 & 70's seem so fuzzy(above the waste line:E) & todays seem to be picture perfect:ok:Ah thank God for modern technology!:)


CW

[Pinky the pilot]

Flyingblind; Those photos were taken on a cheap Kodak belonging to Mrs Pinky which was given to her around 1980. It uses the standard 35mm film cassettes. The exposed films were developed and printed by a business in Port Moresby. ( Chin H Meen)

I have on occasion had reprints made here in Australia and the reprints for some reason have always been of superior quality to the originals.:hmm:

Nevertheless, I suspect that your comment re the humidity has some validity!

[VH-XXX]

Someone was talking about a Nomad that crashed near Melbourne some years ago (very nastily), something to do with the elevator trim being adjusted / cut off to the point where it lost elevator authority and crashed? Is there any truth to this whilst not necessarily related to this discussion???

[Capt Wally]

The ADF had such an accident with a 'Gomad' here in ML I think it was at Laverton but could be wrong there. The tail fell off for want of a better word & that was that!



CW

[tipsy2]

Here's the report courtesy of the 'old' BASI

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1976/AAIR/aair197603014.aspx

Strewth, look at the date 32 years ago. I think I'll retire:D

tipsy:ok:

[tio540]

Walu, nostalgia aside, the GAF Nomad it was canned for a reason.

As a said before, why build a slow, stol aircraft in a country 2000 x 2000 nm wide, with a 1000m strip every 100 nm. If it is for export purposes, Australia now imports beef, grain and everything else.

Complete Nomads littered Australian tarmacs for years, and were sold for scrap in the end. A shame but true.

[StrutlessDrKiller]

Australia now imports beef

Very small quantities of specialised product only. Australia is the world's second largest beef exporter, after Brazil!

Dr :8

[Capt Wally]

Tnxs 'tipsy', you obvioulsy have far too much time on yr hands to seek out old info!:ok:



CW

[emu787]

all of the Australian Army pilots that refused to fly the Nomad in the ADF should have been put up against the wall at dawn.....The Nomad is still flying in Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines....but Australia...the lucky country...could not make them fly...not even our ADF. what do you say about that!!!!!

It was a good product with a bright future and the world needs and always will need a light utility turboprop twin.....go for it GA...you are on the right track and DO NOT LISTEN to all the jerks who know everything about aviation....and for the people who want to know facts...the tail issue was resolved but the bean-counters in Canberra said no.....

thats why a country the size of Australia has F....ALL manufacturing and I am not just talking about aviation!!!!!

Oh by the way...just one last note....stop production of B777 because of the Heathrow prang....I don't think so!!!!!

GO FOR IT....Nomads for the world....(stuff Australia...the market is too small and shortsighted)

[bushy]

Civilians can operate nomads in Australia ok. But they are too dangerous for the military.

[tinpis]

Capt Andy McGregor to the rescue !

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/bubblegum.jpg

[Flyingblind]

It's back!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/06/18/224585/gipplsand-aeronautics-to-restart-production-of-upgraded-nomad-aircraft.html

Could this be the reemergence of an aviation manufacturing industry in Australia?

If Mr Rudd gave Toyota $35 Million for security of automotive jobs in Australia, should he do like wise to secure aviation manufacturing jobs as well?

Personally i think this has been a long time coming, and as long as known airframe issues are addressed and the polies don't stuff up things again, Gippsland could be onto a winner.

Well done for at least giving it a go!

[empacher48]

I hope that it is a success for Gippsland - I hope they don't have the government peeking over their shoulder scuttling potential sales this time round.

With a few minor changes the Nomad could be come a very successful aircraft.

[Capt Wally]

I think this thread follows on from another recent one, same thing.

Leave the Gomad where it belongs, in the annuls of Ozzy flying


CW

[tinpis]

I hope that it is a success for Gippsland - I hope they don't have the government peeking over their shoulder scuttling potential sales this time round.


NomadWatch.... an aircraft for Working Families.... http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughpound.gif

[Capt Wally]

'tinpis' you 'silly old git':}:E

CW

[flying-spike]

"Leave the Gomad where it belongs, in the annuls of Ozzy flying"

Judging from the previous posts I think you mean the Anals of Ozzy flying!;)
I didn't mind them though. It will be interesting to see if Gippsland produce the aircraft that it should have been in the first place

[VH-XXX]

Ceased production for safety reasons including 56 deaths, crickey!

170 built and 56 deaths, so if you had one there was a 32% chance of losing your life?

[flying-spike]

There are 50 odd still flying around the world including Air Safari in NZ who carry heaps of tourists every year. The 32% figure is pretty misleading. The Nomad is a much maligned aircraft that deserves a good design tweak and a second go at the market

[Cap'n Arrr]

Wasn't there a theory that the reason so many had problems was due to their treatment by the military?

[Trojan1981]

From April
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321798&highlight=Nomad

[206greaser]

If GA can have the success with the ole Nomad that they've had with the GA8 good on'em! The Scare van is the ferkin easiest thing you'll ever land (makes me look like a pro)! I love the 206, who doesn't right? Though when you get in an airvan, man! It's amazing what a designed aircraft fells like compared to an evolved one!
Go GA, go you good thing!!!

Cheers.

[Sunfish]

From the other thread:

Mind you there is the flip side of the argument that Australia simply could never and would never be able to afford to develop aircraft that were competitive with the large manufacturers of today and in fact the government had a lot of foresight to essentially get out of the aircraft design business when it did before it sucked an inordinate amount of money from the Australian economy.

One of the saddest things about Australian Government is the persistence of what I will call "Institutional Wisdom". These are mantras that are taken as gospel by the public service, usually with very little thought and still less research.

These mantras are harmful because they inform Government policy.

Most of these mantras boil down to "Australia can't afford to have (insert favourite industry) because we don't have the economies of scale / population to support it".

This is the argument that was to destroy Victa Aviation, the CAC Wamira, Ansett Airlines, the Nomad, and at least one car company.

The trouble with this argument is that it is based on the myth of "economies of scale". It ignores the simple fact that engineering technology, driven by the Japanese, has been doing it's level best to destroy "economies of scale" for the past Forty years, and has largely been successful.

The major weapon that destroyed economies of scale is computer aided manufacturing. This means computer aided design, and computer controlled manufacturing, especially computer controlled machine tools.

The reason these technologies destroyed economies of scale is that they reduced the huge investment required to build something new down to almost zero(well, a believable figure anyway).

In the "good old days" you required massive amounts of tooling to set up machines to cut and drill metal. These days you pretty much don't.

You required an army of design draftsmen to prepare and maintain blueprints of your parts and the associated tooling. Today it's pretty much all in your computer.

Same with manuals.

By way of example, GA produces most of it's sheetmetal with each and every hole CNC punched in it. No more of the old "Pilot hole and drill backwards" philosophy - and bugger all tooling.

When CAC was producing very expensive componentry for the F404 engines, they were doing it on exactly the same machines, in exactly the same working conditions, as GE were using in Lynn, Massachusets. No economies of scale involved at all.

Economies of scale are dead, build what you want, where you want.

[Buster Hyman]

Tinny...did you get that after consultation with the 1000 "clever" Australians?

[Sunfish]

Nope Buster, just silly enough to get an engineering degree many years ago and try to work in manufacturing. Then to an airline, and an aerospace company.

I did however spend time some years ago working to give some stimulus to the engineering industry. The result of that work is here:

http://www.toolingaus.com/

....and today's cover story is about an Australian company making bits for Rolls Royce Aerospace:ok:

Australia's manufacturing niche in the world economy is making relatively low volumes of sophisticated products....which we can usually make cheaper and better than anybody else.

[ABX]

Tinny...did you get that after consultation with the 1000 "clever" Australians?

Sunfish, I suspect that Buster's comment was aimed at Tinpis.

[Going Boeing]

Boeing Australia Sells Nomad Aircraft Certification Authority to Gippsland

(Brisbane, Australia, June 18, 2008) -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] subsidiary Boeing Australia Limited has sold certification authority for the twin turboprop Nomad aircraft to Australia-based general aviation manufacturer Gippsland Aeronautics.

The sale includes technical and spares sales support and all intellectual property for the Nomad aircraft worldwide. Financial terms are not being disclosed.

"The Nomad has a bright future," said David Withers, president of Boeing Australia Limited. "We're delighted with Gippsland's plan to continue providing outstanding support to existing customers while greatly expanding the market for this remarkably versatile, Australian-designed aircraft."

The Hon. Greg Combet MP, the Commonwealth of Australia Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Procurement, said the government has supported the Nomad program since its beginnings. "Our desire for the Nomad type certificate to remain in Australia has been fully realized through this sale to Gippsland Aeronautics," Combet said.

Gippsland Aeronautics Chairman Gary Wight said Gippsland is pleased to be part of the Nomad's future. "We're committed to continuing the high standard of support Boeing has delivered to existing Nomad operators around the world," he said.

Wight added that Gippsland was looking forward to possibly presenting the aircraft to the world market as the Next-Generation Nomad. "The versatile Nomad will complement Gippsland's rugged GA8 Airvan multirole utility aircraft," he said.

Source : Boeing

[dodgybrothers]

oh my god.........why I ask, why?

[Trojan1981]

Already two threads:
This one
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=331607 and an earlier one from april.

Can the mod please merge them?

[Sunfish]

I had this dream last night...there was a Blue Nomad on my back lawn.

[tio540]

Here we go again.

Do we need another slooooow aircraft, government funded (probably), with STOL capability, in one of the biggest continents on the planet?

The Nomad is too slow, short of range. It cannot cover 400 nm range, with head wind and carry holding. The taxpayer paid for it last time, and it didn't work. We have 1500m airstrips every 300 nm, so why do we need STOL capability. Australia is huge, why build a slow aeroplane.

Why did Brazil, Switzerland and USA not approach OZ to buy the rights to build the Nomad when the production ceased? For the same reason they don't build new Austers and Tiger Moths.

We don't build HQ Holdens and Model T's for the same reason. They only reason some Nomads are still flying is they are cheap.

It's time to move on.

[compressor stall]

One would have thought that there is a market beyond these shores....

[Buster Hyman]

The Hon. Greg Combet MP, the Commonwealth of Australia Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Procurement, said the government has supported the Nomad program since its beginnings.
Really?:confused:

Mind you, this is the same guy that has championed the plight of Ansett workers.....right up to being elected.:hmm:

[flyinggit]

'tio540' that's a good point, why do we need another slow plane in such a large country. Maybe this Gippy place (who ever they are) can sell them where they are really needed. I've seen a few Nomads around and even tho i am not an expert on drag they look like my old shed I used to have.:)


Git

[tio540]

There was a time not long ago when there were many Nomads parked against the fence at airports because they were worth zip.

I don't wish to get into a discussion about brands, but Pilatus Pc12's comes from the one of the smallest countries, yet claim 270 kts, which is an order of magnitude above the Nomad.

Range, speed and payload sells. They are exported around the world.

They just happen to be short field as well.

[sms777]

Go Gippsland! We need more slow airplanes.
The biggest problem these days is that everyone is in a damn hurry. I do not want to travel 270 knots, it gives me nose bleed. I want to fly slow and low so i can have a good look at this great country and enjoy it.
I want to fly above the Pacific Highway in a Nomad and watch every HQ Holden pulling away in front of me.
Can't fly much slower than that now, can you? :E

[john_tullamarine]

First up, there exists a modest number of PPRuNers who are ex-Nomad tech folk who retain a fondness for the Type ...

don't have the government peeking over their shoulder

two of the reasons that the aircraft didn't achieve the market penetration it might have related to its being a fill-in project at GAF and being funded for short production runs only

the aircraft that it should have been in the first place

you mean a much smaller single engine turboprop such as was the model which graced Wriggle's desk ?

With a few minor changes the Nomad could be come a very successful aircraft

much of the problem related to the growth from a much smaller aircraft with an engine to match ...

Ceased production for safety reasons

there was a good story behind that idea .. the aircraft got some undeservedly bad press .. unfortunately I can't risk comment on that

including Air Safari in NZ

the NZ operators used to reckon that the only replacement which had half a chance of competing with the Nomad ... was a Nomad (the Oz Coastwatch folk also thought highly of the Type as I recall)

Economies of scale are dead

it has long been accepted that Australia had/has the capability to design and build an aircraft to the size of, say, a Caribou. Reality is that there is more percentage in offset production and technology transfer work which is the bulk of the local Industry in recent years .. however, more strength to Gippy Aero ..

The Nomad is too slow, short of range

but keep in mind that the original design was for a military close support aircraft .. ie something akin to a helo but much cheaper .. the effort was to develop minimal field length performance and non-prepared surface capability. As a consequence of the Westgate collapse, the program was delayed a bit which permitted the aerodynamics folk to develop the lateral control system to a high degree ... for an aircraft its size the low speed capabilities are notable. I can remember quite clearly being thrown in the back as ballast on a few early performance flight tests (mind you, I would fulfil that role far more effectively with my present physique than the younger .. diets be damned) ... Stuart driving and Patrick scribing .. and having my young eyes opened wide at what the aircraft could do on landing, in particular ...

You might like to do some sums on the metric payload capability/MTOW .. and see just how good the Nomad is compared to anything else on that metric alone ...

Of course, if your requirement is speed .. then the Nomad is not for you .. and that was intimately tied up with a lot of the bad press in days gone by ..

..not approach OZ to buy the rights to build the Nomad when the production ceased

something to do with the conditions which would be imposed by the Government, I suggest ...

[Al E. Vator]

I like the Nomad, especially the 24 - it looks right.

Perhaps if they beefed up the tail area, popped a little extra fuel capacity in somewhere and got a few more knots and extra power (if this option didn't make it prohibitively expensive) by bolting on a couple of of PT6's in it could be even better.

To those who say Aus isn't 'big' enough to have its own aviation industry I say bollocks. Sweden produces SAAB's (9 million people). Switzerland produces Pilatus' (7.5 million). Holland produced until recently Fokkers (15 million). Australia has 21,000 people. Canada has a few more than Aus (33,000) but produces a wide range of Bombardier (DeHav Canada) aircraft from turbo props (Dash 8s) to corporate jets (Learjets, CRJ's etc etc) to airliners (the new 100 seat thingy).

And to those who say the Nomad is a problem because it's too slow I also say bollocks. When your hauling tourists around the Kimberleys or the Grand Canyon or freight in Africa, speed isn't really an issue. Ther IS a huge market for this category of aircraft. Why else would investors be restarting the (more expensive) Twin Otter production line.

Good luck Gippsland. Go get 'em. You will experience nay-sayers (it's so easy to be smugly derisive) but rise above this as you have with the G8. There IS success to be had.

[morno]

Al, does Australia really only have 21,000 people?? :bored:

And all this time I thought we had about 21,000,000...... :hmm:

[tio540]

I think he meant 21,000 people in Australia work.

[tinpis]

The wing could be cleaned up it doesnt need all that crap hanging off the thing could never be described as STOL
If it had some decent brakes it would stop fast enough
Unless theyve managed to solve the problems with the new Allison bung on PT6s

[ABX]

Well said Al:D

The critics abound - in every walk of life - and the Tall Poppy Syndrome is strongest in Australia. I wish GipAir all the best with the Nomad and hope to see it become a success story... despite the knockers.

[tinpis]

One would have thought that there is a market beyond these shores....


Does anyone recall the Chinese copy made after a team from
China were allowed to run an abacus over an N22 in OZ?
Had a pair of YumCha radials ?

[empacher48]

Does anyone recall the Chinese copy made after a team from
China were allowed to run an abacus over an N22 in OZ?
Had a pair of YumCha radials ?

Yeah I've seen something about that here at work. Looks identical to the N22, and the "stretched" version was identical to the N24!

[john_tullamarine]

The wing could be cleaned up it doesnt need all that crap hanging off the thing could never be described as STOL

couple of considerations ...

(a) for civil, there is no such thing as serious STOL .. the aircraft still has to meet the normal design standards .. military is a different matter .. so those who have flown the civil variant haven't seen its STOL capability. One needs to keep in mind that real STOL operations involve a moderately increased risk of mishap, especially if the noise stops ... I have been in the back for some serious performance landing trials .. and the numbers are more than respectable .. while being more than a tad terrified .. OK it was good fun... but definitely not your average Chieftain landing.

(b) the lateral control system is comparatively sophisticated .. not many comparable birds around which can stooge about at Nomad speeds ...

[VH-XXX]

Would be surprised if it was "cleaned up a bit" as you put it. It will simply cost too much to change it.

The quickest and cheapest way to get this machine to market is to make it exactly like the previous models, fit new engines and dash etc and get it out there. Changes should be kept for later.

[tio540]

There was an attempt to "clean up a bit" the Caribou some years ago and place them on the Australian civil register. Trouble was in the end they would barely uplift four passengers.
There are a few coffee cup engineers here.

[tinpis]

so those who have flown the civil variant haven't seen its STOL capability.

John
When I was flying Nomads CP was ex MIL and was never shy about demonstrating the "STOL" performance.
You can certainly arrive in a clatter and a cloud of dust if required but an ungainly approach required
The same results could probably be achieved if the thing had some bloody BRAKES!
My 2 bob.
(2500 hours N22/24)

STOL is what Porters do :ok:

(approx 500 hours Porter PNG)

[john_tullamarine]

CP was ex MIL and was never shy about demonstrating

then my previous comment clearly doesn't apply to you .. but your CP was a tad silly .. hard to explain at the enquiry if it turns to custard ...

I can remember Stuart's technique quite well .. and the brakes worked just fine as the aircraft crashed to a halt in next to very little ground run .. I can't recall actual distances now but, having read and analysed numerous cinetheodolite traces .. the bird did just fine in stopping ..

Point about STOL is that real STOL involves speeds somewhat less than the normal civil design standards require .. the problem occurs when something goes awry and the (modest) margin you have under civil rules is both not there and well and truly gone in the blink of an eye... usually with predictable consequences .. acceptable in an operational military environment but hardly justifiable for routine civil operations.

Can't speak to the Porter as I've no background with them at all .. other than watching an example on parachute ops ... does come down at an impressive rate ...

[djpil]

the brakes worked just fineThere was a note on some charts in the N24A FM about not applying brakes above a certain speed as capacity was limited.the Chinese copyGot PT-6's eventually.Why did Brazil, Switzerland and USA not approach OZ to buy the rightsThey did.more percentage in offset production and technology transfer work which is the bulk of the local Industry in recent years Plan I saw for manufacture Nomad in asia indicated less profit for one of the above than more recent plans I've seen for local manufacture of parts for major OEM's.Good luck GippslandSmart people, whatever they decide to do they'll do it well.

[tinpis]

djpil the Chinese copy
Got PT-6's eventually.
Point to any pictures?

Aaarse....so.. me finds it the HARBIN Y-11
Interesting crop sprayer
Note tail feathers
Dear Leader would know wot writ on the side :hmm:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/4/7/5/1341574.jpg


......which morphed into the YB-12
GAF should have a look at one of these :hmm:

http://www.cavok-aviation-photos.net/Peru_Policia/Y12_PNP226.jpg

[john_tullamarine]

There was a note on some charts in the N24A FM

after my time first time around, Dave, ... my rides would have all been on N22 ... Stuart may have had his moments but he could make the bird do interesting things ...

[HarleyD]

Good read about Nomad development and service history here:

http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/nomad/nomad_1.htm (http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/nomad/nomad_1.htm)

There are a few minor innaccuracies in the text but overall i think this is fairly much spot on. I'm glad to see all the armchair design experts have got their two cents in already (whack some PT6's on, 240 kts etc.) The perfect design remedies must be stunningly brilliant if you have no experience in that field and especially if you are completely ignorant of egineering and certification procedure.

Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues and makes sensible and informed comment, thankyou DP

Get real and try to stick to the truth if you can guys, the old gonad carries about the same as a caravan at about the same speed but uses less fuel. no doubt that the experienced nomad drivers know what they are talking about re stol etc but to compare the N24 to the PC12 is not apples with apples. From my experience I wouldn't exactly call the caravan a stol ship for that matter either, and you will definately rack up more M/E turbine time in a nomad on any given sector than you will in a PC12, 208 or a Beech 200, is that not what you want in the log book?

I am surprised that many commentators on this forum love to criticise the media with blazing indignation over almost any comment that they have any slight knowledge of, but quite happily sit back, quote emotive media articles and fuel the "Nomad Deathship" fire that the press and TV of the day built around what is basically a very sound and economical airframe.

and yes the engines would do much better if the much refined RR250 B17F2 replaced the older allison marks.

had my say now I can get back to the real world

HD

[youngmic]

Why does everyone keep mentioning PT-6 as replacement engine and not a Garrett 331.

When you want a small strong cheap fuel efficient engine they're hard to beat.

Sure they make the little kids cry, but their ears recover in time. :E

[Sunfish]

Youngwun - My experience is that Garrett's product support is the most atrocious in the entire solar system.....and that was a quote from a Boeing VP!

Nobody would deliberately bolt something Garrett to their aircraft if they had an alternative.



Mind you, I loooove Phoenix.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Common misconception that adding power increases your cruise speed, it becomes very inefficient very quickly. And if the engines are all that changed, Vne would still be the same. All it would mean is you could climb faster, and possibly carry more weight.

Other advantage of the C208, assuming same speed/load capacity - 2 engines. Not a huge deal for most pilots, but for those punters who reckon a baron must be safer than a PC12. Oh, and Capt Wally.:E

From what I know about gipps, they aren't exactly fools. They wouldn't even consider this if there wasn't a definite market out there for it, even if it's mostly export.

And to those who reckon Oz is too small to have someone building a twin turboprop, try telling Embraer not to build jets cause they mustn't have the infrastructure, or the market to sell them!:E

[john_tullamarine]

There are a few minor innaccuracies in the text

That would be an understatement I suspect .. keep in mind that ARMY had an agenda of its own ..

Some one like djpil actually does understand these issues

Definitely a fair comment .. djpil has some passing knowledge of the Type and engineering matters generally .. but I'm sure that you knew that ... from your bio details, I am now wracking my tiny brain as to just who you might be ?

[aeromariner]

I am now wracking my tiny brain as to just who you might be

Hmm .... factory pilot .... east of melbourne .... rides a harley ....ag experience .......

[Stationair8]

Had the pleasure of being a passenger in Nomad when Vic Walton put on a demonstration at a country airshow, certainly showed what could be done by the mighty Nomad.

[john_tullamarine]

Hmm .... factory pilot .... east of melbourne .... rides a harley ....ag experience .......

I'm still no closer ....

Vic Walton

was a lovely bloke .. every operation should have a fellow like Vic

[rcoight]

What the Hell is that thing in the background of the YB-12 picture?

(No, not the Seneca)...


sorry for thread drift...

[Clear to drop]

rcoight,

I think it might be a An-32 "Cline"

Antonov An-32 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-32)

[rcoight]

Ah, right you are. Thanks.

Strange looking thing. Reminds me of Popeye for some reason...

[Cap'n Arrr]

Spinach Charged?:}

[aeromariner]

I'm still no closer .... If you showed up to FTSA meetings/dinners more often, you would be

[john_tullamarine]

If you showed up to FTSA meetings/dinners more often, you would be

... I consider myself suitably chastised and shall make a point of lifting my game appropriately ..

[Trojan1981]

Anyone see the blurb on the Gippsland site? seems they have customers already...

Gippsland Aeronautics (http://www.gippsaero.com/article.asp-articleID=517.htm)

Mr. Wight then announced that Gippsland holds two letters of intent from two Australian operators for the Nomad. The lead customer is to be Grant Kenny Aviation, which has signed a letter of intent for a multi- aircraft order. Former iron man Grant Kenny, a canoeing bronze medallist in the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, and his wife Lisa Curry-Kenny, also a former Olympic athlete, have built up a multi million dollar fleet of more than fifty aircraft through their Sunshine Coast based Curry-Kenny Aviation Group. The group, Australia's biggest private aviation tour operator, has steadily grown in size to seven aeroplane and helicopter companies which operate aircraft ranging from small training helicopters to corporate jets.

The other operator is Airfreight Solutions, a Bathurst NSW, specialist airfreight operator headed by Tim Hall Matthews.

:ok:

[john_tullamarine]

While I don't think Boeing will be concerned that the Nomad will threaten the position in sales records of DC3s and 737s .. for some niche operators, there is a view that the only aircraft able to replace a Nomad ... is another Nomad.

Gippy Aero is not going to have trouble selling small volumes to complement the other Types on their line. More strength if they can ramp it up to some decent sorts of numbers ...

[empacher48]

I have heard some rumours there already has been a launch customer who has placed orders and paid deposits..

Mind you that came from my next door neighbour's cousin's dog's brother who knows a guy that heard it from someone.

[VH-XXX]

Nice one Empacher - if you read the article that's what it essentially says! Signed expressions of interest!

Nobody would have put a deposit on as nothing yet exists, just a type certificate!

[Fantome]

Ran into a bloke today who had 28 years with GAF, on the floor building Jindiviks, Sabres, Mirages, Nomads and Hornets. Studious, thoughtful, he struck me. Reckons the Nomad's tailplane is still deficient in that excessive loads can be induced with no great departure from the normal envelope. At least that's what I interpreted him to be saying. When I expressed disbelief, he said "It's a fact and I would never fly in one." Also made the comment that the Mirage was far and away the aircraft with the soundest structure and construction methodology.

[Trojan1981]

I'm sure Gippsland will ensure the structure is sound before putting the aircraft back into production. If they didn't, as soon as one went down that would be the end of the program.
They need to improve the public perception of the Nomad as much as anything else. They will make sure it is safe.

[Kangaroo Court]

I think they should build the EH Holden though....

[Brian Abraham]

Boeing will be concerned that the Nomad will threaten the position in sales records of DC3s
Tut, tut John. What are you thinking. See me after school and in the meantime write 1,000 times ............ := :p

[john_tullamarine]

.... bloke can't say anything around here without being picked up by the PC police .....:}

[aeromariner]

Ran into a bloke today who had 28 years with GAF, on the floor building Jindiviks, Sabres, Mirages, Nomads and Hornets......


CA26/27 was built at CAC and was out of production 47 years ago. He's His thoughts on Nomad are as believable as his CV

[Tmbstory]

See my post #49 dated 12/04/08 D&G GA & Q for my comments on the aircraft.


Tmb

[aeromariner]

I personally watched the the above aircraft enter a high right base for the duty runway

The aeroplane actually crashed on climbout immediately after takeoff

[mugsie]

any information on quickjet. Hiring or job rules.

[Tmbstory]

Aeromariner:

You are not correct. The particular aircraft was on a flight from Labuan to Kota Kinabalu Malayisa and it crashed on approach to Kota Kinabalu.

Tmb

[Old Metal]

Ah, a lovely little aircraft for S/E training! A quick check of the logbook shows nearly as much S/E time on the thing as multi (not by choice, I might add). Even the regular pax got used to seeing one shut down! Then there was that persistent leak around the door in rain, and the CP unwilling to approve an expenses claim for a brolly. In theory a nice bit of kit, which just goes to show that theory and practicality don't always mix:)

[aeromariner]

You are not correct

Sorry, you are right. Went back and looked at some notes. The aircraft was believed to be overweight and outside the aft CG limit. Nobody at GAF was interested in looking into what might have happened, because amongst other things N24 certification was causing headaches. What might have happened to the Sabah aeroplane was better understood when the N24A was certified. The extra 1,000 lbs in N24A AUW made it even easier to load outside the aft limit, so "a bit aft" of the aft limit was briefly looked at (9500 odd lbs), and there was no pitch down controllability when flap was deployed. With flap going down, if any pitch up was allowed to develop, then full forward stick would not arrest it and speed would rapidly decrease . There was much scrambling for the flap paddle to retract flaps during that test. MOD N211 which regeared the control circuit was introduced to increase the maximum tailplane deflection which sorted that bit out. The problem with this summisation was that the Sabah aeroplane would have needed to depart flapless or with 10 degrees max, and though quite possible, there was no way to confirm that and of course would have had marginal stability in cruise.

am

[Tmbstory]

Aeromariner:

Thank you for the correction. The Nomad took off before I did at Labuan. I passed it on the way to KK, landed and was disembarking my passengers when the Nomad came on to a right base and entered the spin. There was no sign of a recovery from the spin until it crashed.


Tmb

[vemal]

Let GA have a go, A few good engineering tweaks and the more powerful RR 250 engine. The Nomad can sit alongside the Islander and Twin Otter once again.:ok:

[dash 27]

Flog that dead horse.

Flew the TV star with a couple of hundred hours on it. On the whole, not a bad airframe for short field performance, but Allison B17's are shocking engines for a fixed wing in australian high temps. And the tail's, tell that to the family's of the deceased. It was always trying to be a twin otter, and never came close. PT6, and a normal tail, it might compete as a heavy and gutless -100 Twin Otter. There is just so much more out there. As the Nad performs like fat kids hang gliding on one engine, the converted single turbine Otter has more payload than the -300 series twin. So apple and oranges with twins and singles are not applicable here, single turbines are in the market for comparison. The Chinese walter powered Twin Otter copy, the caravan, the Otter, god even the old porter. :ugh::ugh:

So the article says they will re-introduce the N24, which is the stretched verson with marginal performance to the marginal performing short body with the same engines. BUT it is getting the Pro Line Pack for the cockpit. Dammit, the cockpit was the only thing that was good on the thing.

Fail to plan, plan to fail. This industry will be intollerant to this form of stupidity. Sad, because the air van is such a great seller. Can't imagine why Boeing flicked ownership so fast.

IMHO stepping off the soap box :ok::}:ok:

[tio540]

You Nomad supporters should send some of your paypacket to support the new production plan. I will stick mine in something tangible.

[vemal]

Wasn't Hori Stab cracking fixed with mod N663 about 15 years ago? You might be thinking of stub fin?

[john_tullamarine]

And the tail's ...

Like all Types, the Nomad has some known problems .. but, do the maintenance and most reduce to nuisance value. There was a lot to the story of Donovan's accident

and never came close ..

Interestingly, I recall a graph which showed payload/gross .. and the Nomad was head and shoulders above everything else .. seemed to me to be a relevant metric ? A simple payload comparison is pretty meaningless.

the stretched verson with marginal performance

It had "adequate" performance .. the aircraft certainly was stretched to the limit of the engine's capability ...

Fail to plan, plan to fail

I can't imagine that Gippy hasn't done its sums on the matter ? That doesn't guarantee success but it is the starting point.

Can't imagine why Boeing flicked ownership so fast

Rockwell would have liked to divest ... I can't imagine that Boeing was any different .. the support program had some not overly desirable Government requirements ....

You Nomad supporters should send some of your paypacket

Likewise, I can't imagine that Gippy would be going down this path unless the omens were favourable ....

[Crankhandle]

Saw the test pilot, can't remember his name, demonstrate the N22 at Farnborough in, I think, 1970/1. It demonstrated against a Twin Otter and a Dornier Do-28, it outperformed them in all areas except speed and I don't think that was what it was designed for anyway.
I finally got to fly the N24 some years later and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. A great plane for sucking you out of muddy strips that would only take a chopper. That short field approach had a great view of the mud too.
Some parts need improving, but don't change it too much and I might even enjoy another go at it

[boofhead]

Picked up an N22 from Avalon and they made me do a rear cg flight by loading lead bars in the cabin. It was exciting in the turbulence and I needed care to fly it with the stick bumping the panel throughout the flight. They taught me how to recover (below). When I got it back to the airline I did the w&b calculations and found that the basic index they had used was wrong, by a considerable amount (calculations were wrong, and the index was actually a lot further aft). So the flight I did had been way outside the limit yet the airplane flew and was always controllable. However if you are not familiar with the condition, and do not know how to handle it, you could be in trouble. This is true of all light airplanes, and not only lighties. I have flown a HS748 so far out of balance (2000 pounds not manifested in the rear) I could not steer it on the ground (thought it was an over-inflated nose oleo causing the nose to sit so high). Singling out the Nomad is typical tall poppy stuff that I expect from Australians. Funny that; no other country seems to have that degree of cringe factor.
I was told the Sabah accident was caused by a load of tinned fish being placed in the rear locker without notifying the crew. The airplane was out of balance and if they had made a normal flapped takeoff they would have discovered the balance problem even before rotate, but they did a non-standard takeoff and the problem became uncontrollable when they put the flap down for landing.
Could happen to any airplane, but once again, any chance to knock the Nomad and out they come.
Anyway, if you are faced with a rearward balance problem (stick full forward and nose still coming up), you need to reduce the flap, reduce power and roll into a steep turn. Get the nose down (more than 90 degrees of bank if you need it) and increase speed. Use whatever altitude you have to do this. You will think that a high bank angle at low speed will cause the wing to stall, but if you do not react, the wing will stall anyway. Keep rolling, beyond vertical, until the stall buffet ceases. When the airspeed is up you will have enough elevator authority to regain control. Burn off fuel if it helps and move passengers and cargo forward. Land using no flap and a higher than normal speed. If the condition is bad enough, the airplane might tip onto its tail during the landing roll.
The auto pilot might hide the fact that the airplane is out of balance, and when the flap is extended it will just let go, leaving you to handle the problem without any warning. If you are prepared, it should be easy to recognize and easy to handle. Tell your passengers you always land that way, and remind them there is a surcharge for aerobatics.
Always use the correct configuration and technique for takeoff, and set the flap early (above 500 feet) for landing, since this condition can be masked if you are using higher than normal airspeeds. Some airplanes will develop a rearward cg as fuel is burned and you need to be careful in that case, especially if fuel transfers have been interrupted.

[Freewheel]

I can't think of a way to feel bad about this......

At least they're doing it, rather than sitting back on a Forum bagging someone with the cojones to have a go.

Good luck to them!

[AussieNick]

all i hope is the GA have learny from the problems on old with the Nomads and can produce a much more reliable airframe than the old one. I have no doubt about this considering their performance with the Airvans.

[Trojan1981]

At least they're doing it, rather than sitting back on a Forum bagging someone with the cojones to have a go.

Good luck to them!

I couldn't agree more:ok:

[boofhead]

I still don't get the opposition to the Nomad. I only had 650 hours on an N22 but I always found it to be very reliable and a fantastic performer (after takeoff, from a 800 foot strip and at max gross, I often found I had to push the throttles forward to make climb power).
I did not like the noise, the prop vibration in the cockpit and the proximity of the prop blades to my head (but the N24 was better for this I was told).
I hardly ever had a defect on the airframe and we flew an airline schedule with it day after day and rarely cancelled for mechanical problems. We flew it on 3 hour flights between islands well before ETOPS was thought up, and the passengers loved it. I particuarly liked the way I could take off from a 2000 foot strip on one side of an island with a 6000 foot mountain on it, and fly directly over the top of the mountain to an 800 foot strip on the other side without having to circle to gain altitude or dive at max speed to get down on the other, even the rate of descent was acceptable to passenger ears. The Islander had to fly the long way, around the mountain.
Yet I read on these forums nasty criticism, mostly from people who have never flown it, and it all seems wrong to me, not based in fact at all, but ignorant crap thrown out by the typical Aussie knocker who excells in destroying what his own country produces.
Aus has, and can, make the best products in the world, can, and has, got the best productivity, is innovative and inventive and could be, and has been, a world leader in technology. But you would never know that if you read what the typical Aussie has to say.
I live in the US, and the Americans are the opposite. They believe everything good that their government or industry tells them, and nothing of the bad. Maybe the rah rah rah attitude is impractical and ultimately destructive, but it is easier to take than the gloom and doom Aussie attitude.

[bilbert]

Right on Boofhead. For an aircraft designed to a mil spec it did pretty well. I flew all variations N22B N24 N24A N22S and Floatplane. It was starved of development funds and political backbone. The knocker syndrome - mainly from Mil who apparently wanted a 'real' aeroplane and being attacked by CASA airworthiness as an easy local target, made it a PR nightmare. The T tail, more SHP, new engine cowls, simplify the wing flaps and the gear, design out all the AD's and better sound proofing - If that can be done under the existing TC, great oppotunity for GippsAero.

[prospector]

I would have to agree with boofhead, enjoyed my time with the N22.

Biggest problem was with the ground crew who had been loading BN2 Islanders for years, everything was tossed in the back locker if you did not watch them very closely, from memory was 180 kg in front locker, and 90 in back, but none in back till front was full.

Also had a very exciting moment when one of the pax decided, during T/O run, that he wanted to talk to his mate down the back, 250 kg shuffling down to the rear created an exciting rotate, stick hard forward, lift the flaps, a few choice words yelled over right shoulder to the pax who had a brain only to hold his ears apart, and all settled down. After that after much lobbying managed to get the smallest hosties in the fleet to always have one of the back seats to keep everyone in their alloted seat, with the average weight of the citizens of this country it was most important that this was complied with.

Also carried everything from full coffins, to a Rolls Royce dart engine, replacement for an HS748 engine that died, to three kings on one flight, they were only kings of little islands, but sure were big kings.

[aseanaero]

ASN Aircraft accident GAF Nomad N.24A P-837 Long Apung, Bulungan, East Kalimantan (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20090907-0)

The Indonesian Navy lost an N-24 a few days ago , details as to weather the accident was weather related or some other problem isn't clear yet.

[tinpis]

250 kg shuffling down to the rear created an exciting rotate, stick hard forward, lift the flaps, a few choice words yelled over right shoulder to the pax who had a brain only to hold his ears apart

With similar 250kg fellas driving around Apia, I reckon it might be safe to visit in about 20 years.


Samoa veers left in road rule change - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/08/2679412.htm)