DXB Radar vectoring 7th /8th

[puff m'call]

Would someone from ATC please like to explain to me what on earth was going on last night with the vectoring onto Dubai.

Whilst I'm most definitely not an air traffic controller and know very little about ATC in general I do know that last night was probably the worst I have ever experienced in my 5 years here in Dubai. :ugh:

Arriving at just after midnight which I know is a busy time we were asked by UAE to speed up for the descent to 320kts, then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI so we put into the FMC the expected hold, 23 miles to run to DESDI on a track of about 125 slow 230kts and turn left HDG 060, after about 5 mins turn right HDG 230 then after about another 5 mins on that HDG turn left track to DESDI. At DESDI HDG 090all the way to the coast then turn right 180 degrees vectoring ILS 12L. All of which used some 2 tonnes extra fuel, not that I care because I don't pay for the stuff, but it was about 15 mins of messing around when i could have been on my way home!

Will someone please explain what is the DESDI hold for? Why fly us all around the GULF on stupid headings and speeds when all you have to do is put us into a published hold, drop us down and pull us out the bottom for the approach. They seem to do it quite well at LHR and other such places so why not here?

ATC please...................Over :ok:

[Fart Master]

There you go with all that common sense stuff again......it just won't do:}

[Fox3snapshot]

Clarify then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI....:confused:

Dubai don't issue the hold, UAE control does.

A typical scenario for UAE control is to be providing the required (and extremely excessive) spacing requirements for DXB approach and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time.

The reality is with no flow management processes in place, no slot times, antiquated routing structures, poor equipment, horrendous traffic growth, intra Gulf and International political considerations, incompetent management and staff shortages, the troops in all the tower, approach and area units don't stand a hope in hell in providing the more typical service that one comes to expect in many locations through out the world.

Ho hum.....correct me if I am wrong, but aren't these all the same issues that get raised on an almost daily basis in this region. Same crap, different day, welcome to the Middle East. :ugh:

[Funk]

:ugh: if it is any consolation it is going to get worse before it gets better.
As foxxie said this place is a mess. The bad vectoring, speed ups & slow downs and delays are going to get worse. The regions traffic build up
is now also resulting in a/c going from en-route holding in Muscats airspace to join the BUBIN hold, last week an Emirates flight from SA was delayed for nearly an hour due to traffic alone.
At the UAE (DESDI & BUBIN holds) we are heading for a staffing crisis this summer with a run of resignations. I would guess that 5min departure slots will become the norm as well as the 20Nm arrival sequence for Dubai.

I am not going to bag the DXB approach guys cause they are under the same pressure if not worse than we are. I would also like to thank the Muscat troops who helped us out the other night, get used to the holding fellas :ok:

You won't get too many turns from me , I like 'hold at', EAT's (SDT's) & 'turn inbound' .....mostly cause I can't tell me left from right:}

and foxxie it's SDT's - stack departure times, my STD's cleared up before I left the merchant navy :E

[max AB]

Why doesn't Dubai own the Bubin and Desdi holds??? Or is it a case of they're mine and you can't have them...

[vbrules]

who cares; its not your gas. just make sure you have enough.

[Fox3snapshot]

Phew! Thank goodness you clarified that mate, you know I am not good at those TLA's! :p

MAX Happy to get rid of them mate, I am sure Dubai would love to add them to the list of 'Things to do' in the already saturated TMA. Also more than happy to give back some of the TMA airspace that we administer and oooh! while we are at it we can give Fujeirah and RAK. Stuff me, after all that we may even resemble a more typical Area unit...but lets not let fantasy get in the road!

It is certainly a carry over from the days of the Great Dane when he went on his airspace and procedures 'grabbing raid' on all the adjacent units. :*

[NO LAND 3]

Nothing more boring than flying with someone who complains about ATC all the time.
Just relax, follow the instructions and roll with it.
Its no big deal.

[Lord Flashhart]

Actually I'd prefer the hold instead of all this random vectoring, because at least in the hold you can manage your fuel situation better. When you get vectored to the extent that's been going on of late, you have very little idea of how far/long you are going to be vectored for.

[puff m'call]

Lord Flashhart.

Thanks for that, someone with the same thoughts as me. :ok:

NO LAND 3.

Waste of a post, i don't complain about ATC but the night in question was ridiculous.

Anyone from ATC like to comment?

[Fox3snapshot]

Ummm...I think we have??!! :confused:

[VoxPopuli]

Cut and paste here what F3SS and Funk said. Add to that EK ops who think that it is a good idea to let all their aircraft arrive at the same time. Yes, EK is the architect of their own misery. Why not ask your Milkshake to allow inbound and outbound slots at DXB? This will more than likely put a stop to the nightly/early morning shenanigans taking place all over the Gulf.

They seem to do it quite well at LHR and other such places so why not here?

EK please...................Over :ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

:D Here here!

And while we are at it. lets not forget the schedule duplication and conflictions with ABY, GFA, ETD, QTR, JZR, AXB, AIC, IAC, JAI, to name but a few. Kingfisher starting in August as well to add to the 'confirms' on frequency!

Of course not forgetting all local operator fleet expansion to ensure they are not left behind in the big willy swordfight with he who has the most toys wins! :hmm:

Can't wait for Jebal Ali to open though, that is going to solve all of our problems and we won't have to waste all our time on Pprune bleating about poor planning , conjestion, equipment, salaries, staffing or the price of eggs. We won't know what to do with ourselves! :E

[Tin-Bullet]

Fox3snapshot (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=20173)

A typical scenario for UAE control is to be providing the required (and extremely excessive) spacing requirements for DXB approach and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time.

How many times UAE calls us in DXB “(contravening the local agreement for required notice)”, for any flow restrictions through the gates for our departures, instead of abiding to the ‘usual 10 mins NOTICE’??:=:=

max AB (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=5055)


Why doesn't Dubai own the Bubin and Desdi holds??? Or is it a case of they're mine and you can't have them...


It is all political, we are all so close (as neighbours) BUT YET SO FAR when it comes to common sense & updating LOAs between ALL ACCs/UIRs/FIRs:{:{

NO LAND 3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=74635)


Nothing more boring than flying with someone who complains about ATC all the time.
Just relax, follow the instructions and roll with it.
Its no big deal.:ok::ok:


Hey Mate, I’ll offer you a Beer.. couldn’t have said it better than me!!

VoxPopuli (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=156937)


Cut and paste here what F3SS and Funk said. Add to that EK ops who think that it is a good idea to let all their aircraft arrive at the same time. Yes, EK is the architect of their own misery. Why not ask your Milkshake to allow inbound and outbound slots at DXB? This will more than likely put a stop to the nightly/early morning shenanigans taking place all over the Gulf.


Besides the ‘Open Skies Policy’ here in DXB, things do not get better especially when our Main Based Operator – EK, don’t make matters easier for us ALL & ESPECIALLY THEMSELVES!

And last but not least before EK Crews start mocking DXB ATC, it is better if EK Flt.Ops have a good look at their own recruitment, & monitor ‘some’ of their Crews with their childish behaviour & actions in & around DXB Airspace & Aerodrome, as it seems some of the EK Crews have flown in or out for the 1st time….Things like these are normally not performed by the Base Carrier……. :yuk::yuk:

[Fox3snapshot]

And lets not forget about the calls with tears and begging from DXB approach to relax the DARAX flow :{

[prowler]

And lets not forget about the calls with tears and begging from DXB approach to relax the DARAX flow

Yeahhh right.........As you (UAE ACC) are perhaps unable to cope with our massive departures especially in the morning, & sometimes in the evenings & also early mornings!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

The only good thing on your (UAE)sides, some of all this can be partially attributed to EK Flt Ops, for not 'splitting' their departures between RANBI/MAXMO......:zzz::zzz:

Having said all this, once you ALSO get a call from EK OPS or lets say the Big Sheikh, of course a miracle happens, & somehow there are no longer any flows......:p

[Fox3snapshot]

Having said all this, once you ALSO get a call from EK OPS or lets say the Big Sheikh, of course a miracle happens, & somehow there are no longer any flows......

We don't bow to EK Ops or any Milkshake from your Emirate, not in my time here anyway. But I do know you send emails to your locally based masters with your interpretation of the flow rates for the outbounds and try to paint a pretty picture from your side. Not mentioning in this case of course the heavy flow rates that you have imposed on the inbounds to warrant the outbound flow :hmm:

Argghhhmmm, yaaaawn..... same ol same ol :zzz:

[VoxPopuli]

As you (UAE ACC) are perhaps unable to cope...


The fact is mate that we are unable to cope, simple as that. That is why we institute a flow restriction. If you obtain some form of perverted satisfaction to see a fellow controller go under and have a reduction because of your action, then I pity you.

You are after all unable to cope with our massive amount off arrivals in the evenings and early mornings. But do we scream and shout and spit like infants? No, we stick them in the hold and to hell with anybody who complains about fuel. Then we give you the required inbound spacing, be it 15 or 20 or 30 nm. So why do you find it so difficult to give us the required outbound spacing? Why does it take 6, yes six phonecalls and a fax to get you to comply with the required MAXMO flow? Is your TWR controller dyslexic or incompetent or both?

Always remember that we can see all your traffic, inbound and outbound, because either we put them their or we are going to receive them. You on the other hand do not see all our traffic. Their is a bigger world out their than your bit of airspace. AUH never has a problem with flow, neither does Doha, they just comply.

Is it really so hard to comply with our flow or are you just being obtuse?

[White Knight]

Considering it's such an ugly mess at times with the waves of inbounds and outbounds combined with the restrictions - well done Dubai ATC (generally:})

But please just keep us in the hold and don't vector us to hell and back - as has been said, in the hold makes it easier for us to keep tabs on the fuel!!

No Land 3 - bl00dy well said, roll with it.

[Tin-Bullet]

Voxpopuli

The fact is mate that we are unable to cope, simple as that. That is why we institute a flow restriction. If you obtain some form of perverted satisfaction to see a fellow controller go under and have a reduction because of your action, then I pity you.

You got it WRONG mate...Did I ever express anything like this? NO.....It was ONLY your so called 'colleague' Fox3snapshot who was instigating with "and with no warning (contravening the local agreement for required notice) DXB will call UAE and tell them to hold traffic ultimately making all the original sequencing and speed control process a complete waste of everybody's time. ":yuk::yuk::yuk:

You are after all unable to cope with our massive amount off arrivals in the evenings and early mornings. But do we scream and shout and spit like infants? No, we stick them in the hold and to hell with anybody who complains about fuel. Then we give you the required inbound spacing, be it 15 or 20 or 30 nm. So why do you find it so difficult to give us the required outbound spacing? Why does it take 6, yes six phonecalls and a fax to get you to comply with the required MAXMO flow? Is your TWR controller dyslexic or incompetent or both?


Are we unable to cope?? ha ha,,,,good 1.....No wonder birds of the same feathers WORK together.....:ugh:

Regarding your other instigation of 6 calls which you seem to get from under your seat....It is not that our ATCOs don't abide or whatever you called us, but DO you think it makes sense to call & impose a Flow on MAXMO Especially, when we have no flows, with around 5 for the same gate ALREADY @ the Holding point?? That makes SENSE huh....???:ugh:

[Greensky]

Dudes...you guys bitch more than drivers!! Keep it up. :}
Never realised there was such animosity between AUH and DXB.:E

[prowler]

Dudes...you guys bitch more than drivers!! Keep it up. :}
Never realised there was such animosity between AUH and DXB.:E

Maybe it's our end of the month 'pay-cheque' that INSTIGATES animosity........;)

[Kertez]

I don't think we can keep blaming the great dane for all the shambles, that are going on in the UAE ATC wise..........Didn't he leave the building some time ago ??? We have since sometime in 2006 been climbing/descending tfc opposite direction on the same airway (maxmo/darax), and despite numerous complaints and heads up to management, nothing has been done about this issue so far. At OMDB we have had 2 operational RWY's for some time now , and you know what, we still don't have permission (from GCAA ?) to operate them in dual mode when on 30 :ugh: What are they waiting for ???

[W.O.Bentley]

Tin & Prowler -
Read your instructions 5 min flow through MAXMO H24 to be relaxed if able at the UAE ACC centre supervisors discretion . I’ll get the date this was issued next time I’m at work if you like but has been out for at least 6 months

Being on the shift where the 6 phone calls occurred (and I might point out the shift that causes 90% our problems with Dubai not the other crew we work with) the crew quote "started up 8 departures through MAXMO as we were hoping we could cancel the outbound flow ". What they don't seem to appreciate is that that not only do we have restrictions placed on us about the amount of traffic on freq but there are restrictions about what we can give to other sectors. ie procedural to Tehran, 3 per 10 min per gate at night to Muscat, 10nm in trail to Bahrain etc etc. Our second crew know, understand and comply with this without a complaint in the world why can our first crew not?

All these restrictions are placed on each sector at Abu Dhabi, Dubai, UAE ACC, Muscat etc etc for a very very very simple reason. Safety. If you are unable to understand/comply with that then quite frankly you have no place in ATC/aviation. If you can comply/understand great, stop complaining and carrying on (that goes for everyone not just UAE ACC or Dubai depending on which side of the fence you are sitting on) and start helping.

The sooner these restrictions are enforced by everyone the sooner new/better procedures will be put in place. There is nothing that improves efficiency around this place like bleeding money. (Or maybe I’m just an optimist and should go off to Ireland with the rest of the UAE ACC)


PS To everyone. If you get an instruction that does not comply with the LOA(ie less then 10 min notice for outbound flow/holding at last min etc etc), follow the instruction and call the center/app to ask whats going on. If you are not satisfied/disagree with the answer then,

1) comply with the instruction, it was given for a reason and needs to be implemented
2) Record it in your log book with all the details
3) Give the info to your STACO to investigate

[divingduck]

rriving at just after midnight which I know is a busy time we were asked by UAE to speed up for the descent to 320kts, then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI so we put into the FMC the expected hold, 23 miles to run to DESDI on a track of about 125 slow 230kts and turn left HDG 060, after about 5 mins turn right HDG 230 then after about another 5 mins on that HDG turn left track to DESDI. At DESDI HDG 090all the way to the coast then turn right 180 degrees vectoring ILS 12L. All of which used some 2 tonnes extra fuel, not that I care because I don't pay for the stuff, but it was about 15 mins of messing around when i could have been on my way home!

I was going to stay out of this, but I think that the 5 minutes on hdg060 is a bit of an exaggeration...even at 230 kts that will take you about 20nm into Tehran airspace...You may be confusing UAE vectoring with the DXB "conga line" that they all see to love on 124.9.
From a UAE controllers perspective...all we need to save all sorts of bullsh!te like the conga line is a set course time out of the stack.
Naturally you will have to talk to far greater minds than mine as to why that can't be done. The problem certainly isn't with the AUE controllers not wanting it.
Just as an aside...don't bother asking for EATs...UAE control can't give them unless we are given them by Dubai...and they don't.
We can give you a stack departure time, if we have the time and enough staff to work it out with the ever changing requirements imposed upon us by DXB approach. What happens after the transfer and the length of the conga line is entirely up to them.
I do understand your frustration, imagine ours when we have to vector, hold, and speed control dozens of aircraft, to hear DXB give "direct no speed" on first contact.:ugh:

Just remember to think happy thoughts, and all that extra time is getting your hours up:E

[VoxPopuli]

Prowler and TinBullet

All these things we refer to e.g. the MAXMO flow restriction, the changing of inbound spacing, the sporadic RANBI flow control is covered by the Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or by PANS-ATM/ATCIs. Just read your documents carefully and all will be revealed. However, reading is one thing. Taking cognitive notice and applying might be a bridge too far.

As for your "birds of a feather" comment. Sorry, I'm stumped. Care to elaborate?

DO you think it makes sense to call & impose a Flow on MAXMO Especially, when we have no flows

I am completely aware of the fact that DXB airport has no flow restriction. You have to keep in mind that UAE ACC is not DXB airport. We are an autonomous unit with our own rules and do not fall under your jurisdiction. Unfortunately these rules impact up and down the line. ACC has restrictions placed on them by all the sectors around the FIR. Subsequently these restrictions reach you. If you think these restrictions are a pissing contest, you must be very naive.

It is not a case of calling up and imposing the MAXMO outbound flow. This restriction is in place 24 hours a day as per LOA (again, go read). So when you end up with five at the holding point with five minute departure spacing, it is of your own doing.

What is rather peculiar is that your A-watch seems to grasp this flow restriction quite well. As for B- and E-watch, they still struggle a bit with this concept.


Maybe it's our end of the month 'pay-cheque' that INSTIGATES animosity


Cue the Pavlovian response.

[TheFalcon]

I think foxxy summed it up in his first post. The system, airspace and procedures are absolutely c..p. Its all this which brings up all the animosity.There is something however which I noticed here that most people think he is a better controller than the other guy in the next AREA/APP sector which I simply cannot put down. I have worked in other places and there is no way any controller will not try to help or overlook mistakes by the sector handing off traffic. We all do mistakes and sometimes we don't do our job 100% as well as we should. But pointing to this and that and saying watches dont grap concepts etc certainly don't make any sense neither pointing fingers or all this hostility. I had instances where I had my seperations measured by the accepting sector to see if they were exactly by the book or else get reported/suspended and that really pi..ed me off. Still I manage to work with controllers (both in Dubai and UAE) who like me, simply like to do their job as best as possible, overlooking small mistakes and helping whenever they can. Now these people make my job much easier and are simply the best!! :D

[divingduck]

Maybe you should lay off the sauce before posting:=
Perhaps then your thoughts may actually be able to be interpreted by the masses:E

[ATCO1962]

As a Muscat controller, I'm with those who say that our airspace and procedures are long overdue for a complete overhaul. We should have had a think tank established about 10 years ago to ensure that we're ahead of the game. As it is, I'm fairly suspicious that we won't be able to catch up with the growth in traffic anyway, so let's just rearrange the deckchairs and fiddle while the thing burns. :O

It's hard putting together a long sequence into Dubai, knowing full well that the UAE centre is going to be set up and not knowing when the call is going to come saying that no more traffic can be accepted and then having to set up ad hoc holding patterns on our side of the boundary.

That said, there's no excuse for the slanging going on here. Apart from a few prima donnas, most ATCOs are just trying to do their best. We are all under pressure and we all need to put ourselves in the other guy's shoes as much as we can. Spending some time at another unit is always a good way of seeing through anothers' eyes and personal relationships are great for softening some of the comms that go on. It's too easy to shout at someone you don't know.

We're a big team, guys and gals, regardless of where the ACC lines fall.

Take care out there:ok:

[prowler]

Voxpopuli

If you think these restrictions are a pissing contest, you must be very naive.

Who ever said that imposing the restrictions was a pissing contest? If you assumed that we think so, then YOU ARE the one WHO IS NAIVE....

What is rather peculiar is that your A-watch seems to grasp this flow restriction quite well. As for B- and E-watch, they still struggle a bit with this concept.

Do you think it's WISE or Professional to mention 'Watches'?? I DON'T THINK SO! And don't you think there's always a reason why some of our 'Watches do not cooperate with some of your 'Watches'?

And we aint getting 'happy' if one of you guys down in AUH ACC are 'sweating'...afterall we all do when the heat is on!

Why don't you try to convince GCAA so that you can get rid of the HOLDS? It would make life easier for BOTH, & less chit-chat & pointing fingers here!

Show us, how "far can you go"..........:rolleyes:

[clipped_wings]

Sorry to say that it is common knowledge that when you deal with DXB you are dealing with 5 separate units operating under the same umbrella.

Standardisation between the watches would be a great starting point and easily achieved by ensuring you never returned to the same watch after leave.

[Fly Through]

The handbags are out again.......such fun!!!!!

This thread is an annual occurence, the search function is your friend. No one is helping their reputations on here.......get back to blaming pilots, it's what we do best :E

[Chaos Controller]

First I must say that working at a smaller procedural unit to the north of the Emirates I think that both DXB and ACC controllers does a great job to keep the traffic flowing... But since this is a thread with complaints I wish that the guys to my south would learn how to calculate an estimate, and realize that '100 miles to run' is not something to base procedural separations on... especially when the aircraft is 30 minutes early or late on his estimate :/

[VoxPopuli]

Do you think it's WISE or Professional to mention 'Watches'?? I DON'T THINK SO! And don't you think there's always a reason why some of our 'Watches do not cooperate with some of your 'Watches'?


Ooh, I must have hit a nerve there. Just glad to see that you acknowledge the fact that some watches do not cooperate. I can only assume this is done on purpose. Hmmm.. interesting.

[Tin-Bullet]

It goes BOTH ways.....

Some of our 'watches' can be more flexible than others, & it's not much different from your watches down in ACC!.....Don't you agree?

At least, we do not have people calling & measuring the distance of one's separation, to be followed with reporting action.......:yuk:

Although I must say, this reporting attitude sucks all around the M.E.....:mad:

[NO LAND 3]

Ha ha!! The pilots have all been stunned into silence...

[VoxPopuli]

Tin, I fully agree that the ACC noses aren't always clean. The only time we measure APP separations is when you transfer them to ACC, 6 miles apart, same level with 60 knots worth of closing. And I'm not pulling it from under my seat. Although I sometimes pull my seat back out after that.

Having said all that I said on this thread, I still think that the airlines are their own worst enemy. I mean, how much money does it cost us to watch traffic hold for twenty minutes or more? That's right, NOT A FU....N PENNY.

Open skies = open wallet.

[TheFalcon]

Well Vox if you do measure separations as you say you do then yes you have every right but I am referring to a particular incident (without being too specific) that happened on our watch where a particular separation was measured on two aircraft with completely diverging tracks on a basis that the handover was not completely clean.(recordings were seen and it was eventually clean as soap!) At no point there was going to be a reducing separation (on the contrary). This was for me an attempt to nail someone from our side on a technicality by one particular ACC supervisor who we know well and who thinks ATC was invented downunder so he is always in the right!!! Like you said we don't really give a dead trout about how much holding there is or how much fuel is wasted, we do our jobs as efficiently as possible and helping out each other even you guys at ACC whenever possible. This means that we do not measure the spacing you give nor if there is a chance of a reduced separation. We just deal with it and thats the way it goes! I am sure most of you think the same way.

[PositiveRate876]

Wow. It's so 'refreshing' to read that not only is the airspace poorly designed and the co-ordination poor, but the controllers handling my flight also malice each other and get into childish pprune fights. I guess at this rate it's not going to get better anytime soon. :rolleyes:

What I want to know is:


How much does a PDC system cost, and how come DXB don't have one yet?
Why do I have to make a 15 second initial call that takes a one good breath (and gets stepped on half the time) to DXB APP with information that is already on your flight strip (STAR) and ATIS ID(QNH)?
Do you have a position of Flow Control and does EK have an ATC Liaison that works with you during busy times?

[TheFalcon]

at this rate it's not going to get better anytime soon :Its going to get worse before it gets better - Traffic is increasing and next to nothing is being done ATC wise to cope. ""OPEN SKIES in Dubai lets go wheeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""

How much does a PDC system cost, and how come DXB don't have one yet? :Errr sorry PDC what??!!? Dubai doesn't even have a decent Radar system. The current one is only interim (has been there for three years and will continue in the forseable future) with no alarms, no saftey nets, nothing. I bet Burkina Faso (all due respect gents down there) have a better system than this.

Why do I have to make a 15 second initial call that takes a one good breath (and gets stepped on half the time) to DXB APP with information that is already on your flight strip (STAR) and ATIS ID(QNH)? : Cos it is what DCA considers best practice. It is one of those archaic procedures written down by a neandertal prior to the invention of fire and is still with us although completely uneccesary. You only say it once, the ARR controls chants the same mantra in reply a hundred times every watch. Some sympathy please!

Do you have a position of Flow Control and does EK have an ATC Liaison that works with you during busy times? : Eh What?? We don't even have enough people to cover for decent breaks. Yes EK liason phones us up to ask why the delays and whether we can give no delays to long haul flights over each other. Hows that for liasion ??

You guys flying with EK should take some time to visit us some time soon to see the other side of the story. There are special forms available at OPS which you can fill up and have a jolly good look at what goes on on the other side of the frequency. Your presence at the ATC ops room is always welcome!:ok:

[PositiveRate876]

Thanks for the honest answers.

I'll take you up on that offer. It makes life easier on both sides if we know there's a method in this madness. :ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

Oh but of course, I almost forgot, EK is the only operator in this FIR and warrant their own personal liaison officer to ensure their operations are unaffected!! How silly of me.... :*

[FLYHIGHDODO]

to all pilots .....make sure t take extra fuel any time yo go to DXB not only for holding but also for long taxi.

[prowler]

to all pilots .....make sure t take extra fuel any time yo go to DXB not only for holding but also for long taxi.

You never know, pax on board might enjoy a 'free-tour' ( the only free thing you would not be charged for in Dubai) of the Mega Airport's POOR Layout!:E

Let's get serious.....If only EK Flt Ops plan a better and efficient flight schedule by filing many of their peak departure flights through different gates, it would certainly help matters more, for US ATC & finally for YOU EK Pilots & the poor pax on board!!:hmm:

[VoxPopuli]

I tried to post a neat reply to all but had to give a blood, DNA, fingerprint, spit and stool sample to verify my authenticity. To hell with that.

[PositiveRate876]

Oh but of course, I almost forgot, EK is the only operator in this FIR and warrant their own personal liaison officer to ensure their operations are unaffected!! How silly of me.... :*


Don't be defensive. As the largest operator at DXB such a position wouldn't only benefit EK, but also al the other operators and you the ATC. Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.

[divingduck]

Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.

Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.:ugh:
The reason that you get away earlier is through the hard work and professionalism of the UAE controllers helping out the Dubai guys.
Someone has already pointed out, Dubai tower start up loads hoping that there will be a relaxing of Flow restrictions. Sometimes it just won't happen no matter how much they want it.
The guy doing the DARAX rush is also the guy doing the Eastbound departures AND the inbound MAXMO stuff...oh yeah, and the BUBIN stack and low level overflyers, RAK and FUJ ins and outs. But apart from that, he basically sits on his a$$ and does crosswords:E

The EK boys definitely should come on down to Ab Dab and see what goes on, they will be made more than welcome, especially at the busy times of the shifts.

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

So we can all keep this bantering / complaining / purse fighting going on or we (DXB/AUH) can try to do something to fix it... It's been far too long that we've been blaming management, the color brown, some Danish guy who's not even here anymore, and anything else we can think of, for all the drama and cat fights we give each other on a nightly basis.

Here's a really scary example of how quickly we could fix most of the problems we argue about every day.

We Dubai, would NOT ask for less then 5 minutes through Maxmo. Ever. Tower would know not to bother to start everyone, because the chance of UAE accepting less then 5 minutes would be = None. Is it expeditious? Nope, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to be expeditious? Nope!

Conversely, on the night shifts, 20miles inbound through the straight in gate, and 15 through the non straight in gate. Inbounds through Maxmo are co-ordinated as to where they fit in.

It would certainly upset me sitting in arrivals seeing guys in the hold with no need for it, but do we have the staff / procedures / equipment to co-ordinate individual spacing for inbound ac with UAE? Nope. Our own procedures tell us we're not supposed to. But of course we want to be expeditious, and it ends up getting everyone pissed off at each other when it doesn't work out properly.

If we just did those 2 things, 2 small things, we would end about 90% of the fights we get into with each other.

Some on both sides (myself included) will say "why hold guys when there is no reason to?" Or "Why delay start ups when there is no reason to?"

1. Our procedures tell us to, and we technically are breaking our procedures to do anything else,

2. We (UAE and DXB) do not have the ability to co-ordinate on an adhoc basis. Sorry but on a unit level, we just DO NOT. This post is a testament to that. If there was a dedicated planning position on both sides, with an open hotline between each other and experienced people on both sides of the line, I think together we could co-ordinate the outbound/inbound flows to a very high level of expedition, as high as possible given the equipment and procedures we have. But we don't and I don't think will for a while.

3. It is the only way things will get changed. (Procedures / Staff / Equipment)

Also, if some AUH and some DXB controllers (preferably from as many different watches as possible) got together somewhere outside of work, and made some "between actual controller" agreements, as to what we do(for example the 2 things mentioned above), I think this place could become a much safer, happier place to work in. That would involve maybe a couple of off hours for the people concerned, but it would go a long way in inter-unit relations, no???

If we couldn't come to an agreement, at least we can just beat the hell outta each other with our purses, and argue about paycheques, and who does the most work!

[Tin-Bullet]

Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.

Well SAID divingduck:ok:

Hey you futr-kofeshop-dweler (ex-fksd) would 'av thought u'd be on the water-bed right now.......:}:}:}

[my hands are tied]

My "Quote" function doesn't seem to exist anymore, so I can't quote from F K S D's last post, but his points are very relevent.

Why are we all busting a gut trying to get things moving faster, when technically we aren't supposed to coordinate individual less than the stated in trail sep or dct routings to expedite traffic?

All it needs is a go around or a couple of intra UAE arrs, to upset the applecart and lead to the conga dance towards SHJ and then slot into the down wind pattern for "straight in" traffic when we've already reduced the prescribed 15/20 mile in trail sep to expedite tfc / reduce UAE Holds etc. If we didn't try to help out it wouldn't happen :hmm:

The Maxmo deps ... Hands up ... our GMP/GMC controllers HAVE to take more responsibility for regulating start ups on that route, and not rely on a reduction from the 5 mins "standard". Unfortunately it actually makes us busier slowing down traffic and having to explain that the start up times (which aren't really Dep Slot times)are to acheive 5 mins in trail of the previous dep on the same route(regardless of requested cruise level/speed), taking into account some taxiing times to the Holding point can vary from 2 mins to nearly 15 mins and push back times / ready for taxi can vary as much :rolleyes:. Depending on Rwy in use/taxiway availability we do end up with only Maxmo deps at the Holding Points :(

At peak times(especially morning rush westbound) there can be an expected delay of up to an hour, with 5 mins in trail thru Ranbi and Maxmo.

The phenomenal growth rate of air traffic over the last 10 years or so, in the Middle East area has swamped an already behind the curve ATC set up, staffing level/workload, airspace structure/procedures.

There can't be many places though that have 1 a/c thru a dep gate every 5 mins regardless of cruise level, or 20 miles in trail inbound to a 2 Rwy operation (admittedtedly dependent rather than independent ops).

In closure, we work or arses off and the system still sucks :ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

Flow control
Quote:
Otherwise you will be getting 20 departures over DARAX all at one time, because the LIDO computer said so.
Don't want to rain on your parade pos-rate...BUT because EK don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of procedural control, there is a 5 minute flow restriction on DARAX departures...that means your number 20 is going to be sitting on the tarmac for an hour before he gets airborne.
So I guess that yes indeed you guys DO need a liaison, to learn stuff like that.:ugh:


That's what I'm saying.

1. You tell EK Liaison that there's too many MAXMO departures
2. Laiison calls EK dispatch to reroute 10 of the 20 dep's via RANBI
3. Dispatch sends the aircraft a new flight plan via ACARS
4. In 6 minutes time flow control problem solved.

[FUN.LEVER.FORWARD]

A suggestion from someone to the east of you guys...

At the start of each hour, about 5 mins in, give us a call to see who answers. Depending on the answer (I'll leave that up to you to decipher) you can then ask for 10/15/20 through two certain gates and you WILL get it, 99% of the time treating the two gates as one. We love to sequence, but we also love to know if the b.... hold will be used as we can then keep the arrivals high and not play too much with their speed. But don't get too used to it as the ranks here are thinning fast (to your benefit manning wise).

Three with their resignations in, and several more waiting for the opportune time to hand theirs in ....not that resignations are needed as new contracts are yet to be seen.

[VoxPopuli]

If we just did those 2 things, 2 small things, we would end about 90% of the fights we get into with each other.

F-K-S-D, now you speak a language I understand. What's the point of DXB and ACC working themselves to a standstill to accomodate the airlines? The only thing that increases is the blood pressure. Not the thanks or admiration or salary (excl DXB ;)).

I am now officially signing up to the "5/15/20 Club". 5 minutes MAXMO, 15/20NM DESDI/BUBIN. To hell with carrying the system on my back. You want me to walk the extra mile, then supply the Nike.

But I would like to suggest the "5/10/15/20 Club". Add the 10NM in trail through RANBI. If all belong to this club, I think we'll get on like a house on fire. No more Louis Vuitton handbags at dawn. It will take a monumental shift in attitude to achieve this, but the outcome will be reward enough.

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

I'm in! The 5/10/15/20 Club sounds like a plan until at least UAE staffing, and the Maxmo procedures are sorted out. (So for a long long time)


Whilst taking time off from my waterbed escapades, I was thinking back on a previous post on this thread from the pilot who thought how professional LHR is because inbound ac go into the hold and then straight in for their approach. I started wondering how many LHR arrival controllers take time out to range out to 120nm (that would be out by Amsterdam somewhere by the way) and see if anyone 100nm away can go direct a 10NM final. Or maybe, how many times does LHR tower get on the phone to LHR Departure, which calls LHR Enroute to ask for less outbound spacing, because this really really angry dispatch guy from BA called and wants to know why the Delhi flight is dealyed because his cousin is onboard. I am not a very smart man, but I'm thinking this would never happen in the "Professional" part of the world. Yet we do this all the time! And for what? To be told by pilots how "Unprofessional" we are because we had to vector a/c out of the hold when the planned inbound spacing didn't work out due to unforseen factors. (ie: go around, low vis, tower needing extra space due to the fact they are now controlling out of a laundry closet, where each controller in the VCR gets a 8% view of the airport)

SO yes, the 5/10/15/20 club is a wonderful idea until someone comes up with better, who else is in?

I notice also with some dissapointment that some of the controllers from UAE ACC who have the most gripes and post on pretty much every thread containing the letters U A or E on pprune have been quiet when it comes time to start coming up with ideas on how to make work more bearable amongst ourselves. Interesting....

Well that's been 10 minutes, my stocks are back up to firing strength, the bedroom beckons!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

F-K-D, dunno if that was aimed at me, but I have been reading with interest but trying for a change to stay out of the usual argument that goes on between Dubai and us.

I agree with the sentiment that reducing spacing either in or out of Dubai is not going to gain any praise or thanks from anyone, and that when it all goes tits up, as it invariably will due to the inadequate/nonexistent arrival flow procedures and dangerous airspace design/sectorisation, the people to cop the abuse will be those that tried to help by reducing spacing.

In saying that there are times where common sense can prevail, that is, always give priority to arrivals over departures, after all a guy on the ground is not going to hit anyone or declare a fuel emergency. Also if Dubai wants to have 20 miles through each gate, and DESDI hold is chockers and BUBIN is ok, why not give us 10 or 15 through DESDI and ask for 30 through BUBIN. Still getting the same spacing in the end but giving some relief to the guy that needs it.

Anyway don't take my recent silence on here as lack of support for actually finding agreement on how to achieve improved relations and operations between the 2 units. It is just that I am tired of beating my head against a wall, and think the only thing that will really change things will be when the endless inneffectual meetings end, and people get together and actually sort this dangerous mess out.

Enjoy the discussion.

[OMRK]

after all a guy on the ground is not going to hit anyone or declare a fuel emergency

If only....

At least almost, during last Hajj season we had a few aircrafts that needed to taxi back to the apron for refueling because ACC or Dubai would not give us a departure release.

Am also aware of an IL76 out of Fujairah last year that was sitting at the loop for about 30 minutes before he got a release, and as soon as he was airborne he said he needed to turn direct ALN or he would decleare a fuel emergency (destination was Sudan I believe).

[OMRK]

I am not having a go at you, I am sure that the refusal of releases are justified, if not there would be no need for me to call for a release in the first place, would there?

I would however appreciate it that if you see you are going to be too busy for the next hour (57 minutes is the longest I have waited for a release), then why not pick up the phone, call us and say 'block starst for Darax cancelled'?
Or give a 'released at time XX' or even 'call you back in 5 minutes' (some of you do, most don't), so that I have something to work with, and can keep the pilot updated.
Just getting a 'call you back shortly' and then being yelled at when I call back 20 minuters later asking if you have forgotten is just not cricket.

But most of the time you guys (seems to be from my side at least) doing a good job, so again, not having a go at you :)

[Rule3]

FKD...was with you up to the until. The MAJOR problem we all face is the 15/20 caused by the Tower Works, the Runway Works, EK Scheduling, and the lack of a Flow Management System. We can't even get a Holding Fuel NOTAM issued.:ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

what has been happening there since PAPAR was closed

Anybody know when is the next election in Iran and PAPAR can open back up? :ugh:

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

Ok, add this to after my until:

"the Tower Works, the Runway Works, EK Scheduling, and the lack of a Flow Management System."

I'll let publishing the notam slide tho :rolleyes:

Back ta bed, sorry!

[GMDS]

Why don't we stop shooting each side's messenger.
We all know the other side is trying to do their best with what's at their hands.

The big problem in this region is:

- The di^*heads who set up the rules are either no longer here, are way out of their league, have their head up some dark hole just for the doe or any combination of that. This goes for ATC, AUH, DXB, EK, EY and GCAA.
- Any remedy to this situation is obstructed by either cost or rivalry between Dubai or Abu Dhabi. Both give any dish-dash instant goose pimples.

So we'll just have to wait until a major one happens, then the blaming game will start with yelling and finger pointing until some top shot (and i can think of only one) blows the horn.
Just keep your fingers crossed you're not on shift when it happens.....

[Quokka]

I notice also with some dissapointment that some of the controllers from UAE ACC who have the most gripes and post on pretty much every thread containing the letters U A or E on pprune have been quiet when it comes time to start coming up with ideas on how to make work more bearable amongst ourselves. Interesting....

There were some international phone calls following the Dubai debacle of the 7th/8th followed up by several informal international meetings in Abu Dhabi at controller's expense. Much was discussed and debated by the pool and at the pub as to what did/did not work and what might/might not work next time.

It's surprising how many problems can be solved after one-too-many Carlsbergs... :E

[Thridle Op Des]

Holding NOTAM finally issued!

[Quokka]

What the??? ... nah, couldn't be... recognition that there just might be a wee problem with too many aircraft trying to arrive at the same time at Dubai? ;)

[A300Man]

I notice today's afternoon arrivals all appear to be coming-in at a variety of altitudes, not maintaining the "usual" approach altitude above my area. One Sudanese A310 probably doing a visual approach appeared to nose-dive towards the thresh-hold. I love to see visual approaches being flown. They make for a nice afternoon's spotting.

Aside from the A310, other regular Friday afternoon traffic (TG 333 / EK 332s / EK777 / WY 738 / KU320 / etc, etc) appeared to be at various levels. Any special reason that anyone is aware of??

[W.O.Bentley]

Don’t be silly. Recognition of a problem we deal with everyday... who ever heard of such a thing?

No Dubai TWR had to move from the temporary tower they are in for the refurbishment of the main one into the temporary temporary tower due to the temporary tower being flooded.

Dubai had to go to 40min worth of inbounds only then 40 min worth of outbound only for a few hours with a NOTAM issued for 20 min holding and 15min delay on ground. That said excellent work by everyone involved in a difficult situation.

[VoxPopuli]

I notice also with some dissapointment that some of the controllers from UAE ACC who have the most gripes and post on pretty much every thread containing the letters U A or E on pprune...


I have never posted on the United Airlines thread. As for African & Eastern, different story.

Slightly off topic, but can someone explain how you manage to flood a control tower. I mean, the thing is up in the air and sits on top of everything. Doesn't it?

[my hands are tied]

VoxPopuli, it is supposed to be kept secret, but it was from the Jacuzzi over flowing when too many got in at the same time :p

All these rumours about moving down to the floor below so that the Tower can be refurbished are just a smokescreen to hide the fact that the old Tower Cab has been converted into a Rest and Recreation Room for us poor over worked and under appreciated Dubai ATCO's :8

[ferris]

Is it true that the marble fixtures and gold fittings are causing the tower to lean, a la Pisa?

[Roster Change]

DXB ATCO's, on the side, how do you work the IL 76's that depart DXB at 06:00, that do not appear to have decent climb rate. One of them (all white livery) came at villa height over Mirdiff this morning. Incredible sight ! And noise.

[TheFalcon]

Thanks to the open skies policy (which I lately heard is likely to be revised but don't hold your breath) Il76's will continue to fly low over Mirdiff and elsewhere. With the restrictions in force due to high obstacles (Burj et al) these flightless monsters continue crawling in the skies at 100ft per min climb rate at best really screwing up the rest of the flow. Just wait till summer really comes in and they will be flying at 2000ft all the way to Kandahar!

[MrMachfivepointfive]

I love to look into an IL76 cockpit from above while standing on my balcony in Mirdif. That thing has enough power, but Russian acceleration altitude is highest obstacle plus 50ft till 500kph. That means level flight till Mushrif park. Nothing beats the IL86 though...

[prowler]

We will be soon REALLY holding our breath when the new OMJA - Jebel Ali Al Maktoum Intl, OMDM - Minhad, together with Sharjah OMSJ, & new Ajman Intl in the area just North East of Sharjah near Masafi will be ALL operational, with OMDB - Dubai International RIGHT in the THICK of THINGS...

All a shambles......:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[divingduck]

it could be worse...I could have to deal with it!!

Thank you all for your patience and hmour (or lack thereof) over the past 10 years...I am off for greener pastures in a couple of days.

Good luck with keeping them all apart when Emirates get the rest of their 450 aircraft planned for the next 10 years!

[ATCO1962]

Good luck to you, duck. It was great working with you over the years. I hope everything pans out for you just the way you want it to.

Greener pastures usually refers to NZ so commiserations on your actual destination. How are you gonna afford the petrol there?:O

[Fox3snapshot]

I just watered the parsley on the ledge....does that constitute greener pastures???! :p

Gonna miss yer warries DD, see you in July when I come and check out my new pad!

Luv

The Fox :E

[Quokka]

Another Wicket Keeper lost... and a good one at that. Running out of people to bowl wides to... :E

Have a look out the window as you start down to your new home... through the gaps in the cloud it's like a patch-work quilt. And, everywhere else is just a very short flight away...

Cheers,

Lightweight

Ps. Thanks for the Aspro.