Is IR training easier in Diamond twin star than a Duches or Seneca?

[veraviametro]

Hey IR guys i just wanted to know what do u think,if the G1000 actually gives u an advantage than usual analogue systems found in the other cockpits of other twins.

[coodem]

Probably the FADEC tht makes things a little easier, as it relieves a bit of the workload giving you more capacity to deal with other things

[veraviametro]

Definetely Fadec gives you an extra advantage,i never used G1000 so appart from the Fadec the glass avionics what extra things are giving u?

[moggiee]

Our experience is that the aeroplane is easier to fly and that frees up time and mental capacity for operating it. Our first time pass rate has gone up markedly since we switched over from the Seneca.

The proof is in the pudding - of four students taking the IR test in the last week, we have had THREE first time passes and one partial. That's first time, not first series, by the way - we expect the partial to get a pass in the next day or two, making four first series passes.

[veraviametro]

i dont have any reason not to believe you,but since i never been in a diamond twin star or an a/c with g1000,i would like to know more about how this airplane helps u more to achive ur targets,appart from the fact u dont have to worry about engine pitch and micture and things like that,what more G1000 can offer u?

[moggiee]

It's not so much the G1000 as the fact that the aeroplane handling is easier (engines and airframe) and that brings your workload down.

[Duchess_Driver]

...and the presentation and operation is easier. You can immediately set CDI to currtent course at the push of a button. You can immediately identify your track across the ground for the heading you've selected. You can immediately see your wind vector. Cummulative distances and times. Autoload approaches. Auto Ident of beacons. There are more, but it's now midnight! (O.K, some of these are available on the 430 as well!)

And the big benefit.....everything is presented to you with your head still, all in easy eye movement. :D :ok:

However, big minus, it makes you lazy!:=

[jb2_86_uk]

This is something I had been thinking about recently. I shall be taking my IR in the da-42 in due course. With all the smashing avionics on board, I was worried certain functions of the G1000 would be off-limits for the skills test. If this is not the case and the only part of the aircraft out of use are the windows, is the IR really worth the weight it carries?

Years ago when I first read about the IR test and what it involved, well, a change of underpants was required immediatly. Now, knowing I will have the g1000 facing me, I cant say im particularly worried!

Excellent news from moggiee, I hope that trend of first time passes continues as from what I read, a first time pass in the skills tests can carry some serious weight when looking for post-course employment!

JB

[shaun ryder]

Save the Y fronts for when you get the air taxi job flying a Seneca or Aztec.

;)

[Parson]

Glass cockpit training is obviously the future, but does IR training this way include flying on the back-up instruments and a traditional scan?

[skyhigher]

i have flown both da42 and seneca, and i can say for sure that the IR would be easier to obtain a first time pass on the da42. I did my IR on the 42 and found it a real pleasure to fly. appart from being slower on the approach which gives you more time to think during the test, the glass avionics make the scan and information selection easier.

I now fly a traditional turboprop (very old school, often no autopilot) and found the transition back to steam instruments not very difficult. it was just a matter of changing my scan pattern to suit.

[veraviametro]

What examiners can switch off on the G1000 so to make ur life a bit harder? do u know any tricks they do on the g1000?

[Ollie268]

Flying with the glass cockpit and all those gadgets has to be a bonus for the test however i flew the seneca and still got first TIME passes in both CPL and IR and i never had a problem with the seneca so to be honest i think it doesnt make a difference. If you work hard and ensure you are fully prepared then it doesnt matter what you are flying.
Just my opinion! :ok:

[wbryce]

I done my CPL/IR on the Duchess and got first time passes. I opted against the DA42 as I believed it was better for my own personal reasons to push myself on the old steam driven technology. I knew It would be easier going from steam to glass than it would be from glass to steam. You could pay for additional training post-IR to convert onto conventional twins but its obviously much cheaper and more challenging doing to do it on steam twins in the first place!! train hard, fight easy!! :L

Can't wait till I have a go at the DA42 though, it doesn't seem like you have much to do! :O

[moggiee]

I am astounded by the macho posturing of those who seem to think that there is some merit in making life difficult for themselves when doing their IR. There is not.

There is a mistaken belief that if you train on the DA42 you will find it hard to fly the B737 or a Kingair and will only be able to fly an A320 in future. That is simply not the case.

A Seneca bears as much resemblance to a B737 or Citation as a 1960s vintage 850cc Mini does to a 2007 Aston Martin Vantage. Take it from someone who has flown piston singles, jet singles, twin turboprops and 4 jet airliners - the aeroplanes get easier to fly as they get bigger and you previous type has little relevance when you move up a class.

The whole point of an IR skills test is to prove that you understand IFR and can fly accurately and safely under IFR conditions - it has nothing to do with handling a Seneca/Duchess/DA42 as they are simply vehicles which you use to show the examiner that you can use an NDB!

In all probability, the most difficult flying you ever do will be the ME-IR - so if whatever you do next is going to be easier, leave the testosterone behind when you fly. Take the first time pass on the IR (in a DA42) and if you must, you can use the £1000-£1500 you saved by not having to resit towards the cost of doing some PA34 flying to prove how manly you are!

[shaun ryder]

How about not setting the props to full fine during a go around moggie? Surely an issue during a test?

[skyhigher]

i agree with moggie, there is no need to make things more difficult than necessary for the initial IR test.

Will Bryce- why is it easier to move from glass to analogue, than analogue to glass? what experience are you using to make this assessment? regardless of what twin you learn on any good school will require that you undergo differences training before flying a new aircraft- ME examiners must have 5 hours on type to relavidate ratings for example.and i fail to see how it is 'obviously much cheaper and more challenging doing to do it on steam twins in the first place'

If you learn to be a good instrument pilot then transitioning between glass and steam should not be a difficult challenge. Dont think that flying a DA42 is easy and you have nothing to do, its still a ME.

[Simon150]

I am about 20hours into the ME-IR (part time I might add - gasp). I am flying the Seminole Sim/Arrow/Seminole and by far the hardest thing for me is keeping ahead of the aircraft. Not so much in terms of handling but getting the right radio frequencies in standby in good time, remembering to start the timer on an a timed NDB approach (especially when you have just done a DME/NDB!), remembering to start/stop my decent on final etc. I found that the actual 'flying' of the aircraft and intepretation of the primary instruments came relativly quickly, in a similar way as flying visual becomes somewhat second nature during your PPL training.

I can understand that an aircraft with reduced workload (like the DA-42) may give you more time to think about these things but in principal, I can't imagine that the glass/steam issue, when we are talking about controlling the aircraft, makes a huge difference. There have been a few times when I have flown past my designated heading, or looked back to the AI to find myself diverging in bank angle when I have spent a little too much time tuning in the radios (for example), which may not have happened in the DA-42 due to the distance away from the Primary display that your eyes travel, but nothing too serious has happened so far.

I can see that flying the DA-42 would be 'easier' in that there is a reduced workload in general, and the scan would probably be easier, and if the aircraft is a little slower, and a bit more stable then that leaves more time for 'admin' (my sticking point) as well. But in principal, the concept of learning on a DA-42 and then converting to something with more levers doesn't scare me too much. But I can see how it could be said that Glass to Steam would probably take a little longer than Steam to Glass.

[Simon150]

Oh - in answer to the exam question "Is IR training easier in Diamond twin star than a Duches or Seneca?"

In my opinion - YES

Doesn't make it 'easy' though before I get shot down!

As a side note, the Seneca (certainly the Seneca 200T I did my initial twin training on) I found very difficult during go-arounds (both ME and SE), and even during take off due to the amount of 'head down' required not to overboost the engines, combined with the rather 'wooly' setting of MP you get with a turbocharged engine.

So I would go one step further and say IR is easier in the Seminole than a Seneca!" as well.

I guess there are 2 aspects to the IR. Operating the aircraft' and 'everything else'.

The easier the aircraft is to fly, operate etc - the more time there is for 'everything else' which has to be a good thing!

If I had a choice, I would do my IR on the DA-42!

[Deano777]

The variable during the IR is the student, (& the weather) no 2 students are at the same level, I did my IR on the Seneca II and didn't find it hard at all, gained a FTP and enjoyed the course immensely. If there is something out there to make your life easier then of course use it, but I would say forget the aircraft, choose the school that is best for you, and if they fly DA-42s then so be it.

As a side note potential employers wouldn't give a rat's arse whether you did your IR in a Glass cockpit or not, and 30-40hrs Multi time doesn't mean squat, I think there is alot of stigma with students wanting to "fly a glass cockpit aircraft", just to say you have done it and because it's a fancy bit of kit, nobody in the airline world cares. Just choose what is right for yourself & choose the school most likely to get you through the course 1st time.

[Simon150]

Well said!

[coodem]

I am just starting my IR, and had no idea which aircraft to choose PA44 or DA42. Then found a school, that do a mixture of both. I do my MEP on the PA44, another 8 hours PA44 for the IR and then do 15 hours in the DA42. That way I am able to fly both without any difficulties. I did not find the overall cost much more expensive

[richatom]

This is something I had been thinking about recently. I shall be taking my IR in the da-42 in due course. With all the smashing avionics on board, I was worried certain functions of the G1000 would be off-limits for the skills test. If this is not the case and the only part of the aircraft out of use are the windows, is the IR really worth the weight it carries?



Most IR examiners here in France start degrading functionality during the flight. So for example, you might be able to use the autopilot until top of cruise phase, then once examiner sees you know how to use it, it is disabled. Then usually they pull the GPS circuit breaker, so you lose your ground-track, wind vector and FMS flight plan. You end up with an aircraft with no more functionality than a conventional steam-guage aeroplane, except that the knobology is more complicated. For example, changing ADF frequency and identifying the NDB in the G1000 requires a lot more knobbing than on a conventional ADF.

However, once you know the knobology of the G1000 and are in a real situation where you are using all its functionality, it absolutely awesome and a great safety asset in IFR. For example, it is very reassuring when on an approach in IMC, especially on single pilot ops, to be able to glance over to the moving map to verify that you are where your instruments say you are.

[Finals19]

Then usually they pull the GPS circuit breaker, so you lose your ground-track, wind vector and FMS flight plan.

All of which are also available on the GNS430, which I found in the Duchess that I did my IRT on. The level of failure can (to a large degree) be simulated on both aircraft when it comes to some of the avionics, although the G1000 allows some integrated functions to remain intact. Therefore, its the EFIS style display and the FADEC that give the DA42 the cutting edge.

FWIW, GPS can be used en route in the IRT, although this seems to be a bone of contention with some examiners and not with others. There is still some standardisation required on this issue IMHO.

[bajadj]

I'll take that bet. I have absolutely no stats whatsover but i'm willing to bet that the twinstar has higher pass rates than the seneca... how much shall we say?? one dollar randolf???

[moggiee]

Our first time IR pass rate has doubled since moving from the Seneca. That saves our students a LOT of money.

[matt_hooks]

As for what you can/can't use "on test", you are expected to show proficiency on any and all kit fitted to the aircraft, so in fact in that way the DA42 with the G1000 could be a hindrance with the massive capability, if the examiner decides to test out your knowledge of the systems.

They will, in certain parts of the test, ask you not to use certain of the gadgets. For example they will ask you to make the initial climb out and probably one or two turns nahd flying, before they allow you to engage the AP. And you are expected to disengage the AP by bottom of descent on the first approach. Also they will either cover the moving map, or ask you to select a different page on the MFD for the NDB approach.

Is the DA42 easier to pass the IR test in? That very much depends. If you are willing to spend the time and effort to learn the system properly then you will find it aids you hugely. If you are somewhat slipshod then it can turn round and bite you.

[Simon150]

No - its rather categoric. No numbers I am afraid but have been told by 2 schools now that the pass rate has 'gone up significantly' since switching from steam to the DA-42.

Raw stats says that flying the DA-42 will improve your chances of passing first time - i.e. its easier on the DA-42.

"As for what you can/can't use "on test", you are expected to show proficiency on any and all kit fitted to the aircraft, so in fact in that way the DA42 with the G1000 could be a hindrance with the massive capability, if the examiner decides to test out your knowledge of the systems."

......so much so that I am considering stealing the GPS circuit breaker the night before my test.

[madlandrover]

Much as Moggiee says - do the IR on the Twinstar to save cost (lower operating costs as well as a higher first time pass rate), then spend some time post-test flying a traditional 6 lever steam cockpit aircraft until you and an instructor are satisfied. Just the same as you'd have to do from Seneca/Seminole to Twinstar. Having done a few hours single pilot in IMC in the DA42 last week, I certainly know which I'd rather be flying!

[D O Guerrero]

I fly the Seneca and I reckon just from an engine management point of view, the DA42 must be so much easier to fly. I nearly break my neck every time I strain to look at the EGT gauges to lean the engines for the cruise. While trying to maintain my scan... talk on the radio.... find peak EGT.... etc etc! I guess it all comes with practice, but I know which aircraft sounds more appealing right now!
Seneca EFATO drill (for the guy that asked) - Mixture, Prop and Throttles fully forward (well, throttles to 40"), close failed throttle, feather failed prop, failed mixture to ICO. Gear up, flaps up. Failed Mags, fuel pump and fuel selector off. Check for fire. Check Engine T&P, Set cowl flaps (dead engine closed, live open), check gyro pressure. Make Pan call. Set rudder trim.... phew!
I reckon that has to be more long-winded than the DA42? Anyone care to let me know?!

[GASH !]

The engine failure drill for the DA42 is:

Full power, Vyse, Gear/Flap up, Engine master off, alternator off, fuel off, check for fire etc etc Very basic, very easy.

I teach on the DA42 and the PA44. It is much easier to get students through on the DA42. Infact, I can't remember the last time I had a student that DIDN'T get through the IR in minimum hours on the DA42. I'd say it's almost possible to take anybody with a licence, medical and a basic grasp of English to IR test standard in minimum hours on the DA42. The same cannot be said for a 6 lever twin. Certainly converting a 6 lever driver onto a glass cockpit is far easier than trying to convert a 42 driver onto 6 levers.

What I'd really like to see is a bit more imagination coming from the Belgrano with regards to test routes. The examiners choose the same 'milk runs' week in week out, it's no wonder the pass rates are so high.

[D O Guerrero]

Thanks Gash. I forgot the control & identify part but thought that went without saying....!

[moggiee]

Thanks Gash. I forgot the control & identify part but thought that went without saying....!
It should go without saying!