Supply and Demand

[kilopapa]

From Time Magazine
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727702,00.html

[Aussie]

Very interesting post mate, suprised you didnt post that in the ME forum :)

Things might be bad in the ME, but must be worse in the US by the look of things.

[Ralph the Bong]

"Pilots flying for airlines in foreign markets say they are treated like upper-level managers, with something they feel they no longer get in the U.S.: respect. China and India are signing up pilots with two-to-five-year contracts and giving them the chance to move around the world without having to start at the bottom and advance--something stifled by the seniority system in the U.S. "It's an amazing opportunity," says Murray."

Something that I have been saying on this forum for a long time: The seniority system works against us and erodes our Ts&Cs.

For this reason, it should be abandoned.

How I despair when I hear of people talking of seniority as if it were some sort of 'protection'

Idiots.

[fire wall]

Fate is the Hunter - E.K. Gann
Quote " Seniority is a system designed to protect the weak and incompetent"

I thought Earnie had his finger on the pulse.

[Anonymus6]

what a bunch of bu*t, people are getting fourlough in US right now. Airlines filing banckrupcy left and right. Regionals stopped hiring, so please stop the nonsense of pilot shortage.

[International Trader]

Massive shift of "talent and experience" from the US..........mmmmm!
I have seen a fair slice of BS from there.

[Kangaroo Court]

This is more connected to the mortgage mess in the United States. They had it once before and it was then called the Savings and Loan crisis. It cost six times the Vietnam War when it was over...well it just happened again and the Treasury spent all it's money playing world police this time, so it could be a while before it gets figured out.

Australia doesn't need to get overly concerned by this. Even if the markets lose two years of gains, exports are still strong.

[pithblot]

fire wall,

Fate is the Hunter - E.K. Gann
Quote " Seniority is a system designed to protect the weak and incompetent"

I thought Earnie had his finger on the pulse.



Me too. I think you will find Captain Gann always had his finger on the pulse :ok:

PITHBLOT


Ernest K. Gann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_K._Gann)

Fate is the Hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fate_Is_the_Hunter)

[Pinky the pilot]

Slight thread drift
Ernest K. Gann

Fate is the Hunter

Excellent book. It has the 'pride of place' in my bookshelves and will remain ever thus!:ok:

[ACMS]

get rid of seniority....................

So how does that help the S/O's and F/O's in legacy companies like BA CX and QF with their career progression?

The Airlines don't want to get rid of it either, otherwise Pilot's would be moving all over the place all of the time, no incentive to stay.

get rid of seniority...................yeah good one buddy.:rolleyes:

[KRUSTY 34]

Agree ACMS.

Seniority is an opportunity to qualify nothing more, the candidate still has to make the cut. Those that lament it's existance usually have some other motive or are too impatient or ambitious to wait their turn.

The great E.K. Gann may have been refering to a "walk up start". Something that is rare in a modern check and training system.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

The removal of the seniority system causes other unwanted side effects, back stabbing, playing favourites and everyone spending more time protecting their asses than actually doing their job and assisting the development SOP's/safe operations.

The no blame policy goes right out the window, its all about blame, Captains and F/O not trusting each other or working together terribly well and ultimately someone ends up smacking , right into a big rock or an icey river ( huge staff turnover ).

IMHO the CP has to have big brass balls and stand by his/her line Pilots, not allow managers to railroad staff under his/her control, quite often this will put a CP head to head with a CEO/GM.

What tends to happen is the CEO/GM will hire a CP that can be manipulated, often not the most suitable for the job, but putty in their hands.

Many of these companies having troubles come down to their CP not doing their job properly, "tell em they're dreaming", was a famous quote from the best CP i've had, and Ooohhhh how that infuriated the GM. He was and is a great CP.

[Tmbstory]

Pinky the Pilot.

EKG.
A great Aviator, a great writer of his profession and a good story teller. His book," Fate is the Hunter" was mandatory reading for my students when training for Instrument Ratings.

A pity that he has left this world.

Tmb

[Ralph the Bong]

KRUSTY, I thought that you would know better than that. Yor own company, REX is on the verge of an organisational and standards collapse because it cannot attract people with experience into the company.

Why?

Because anyone with the ability to come to REX as a DEC with the requsite experience and qualifications to make a difference, cant. The reason being that seniorty dictates that they will have to start as a lowly FO on FO salary. Thus, as you lose experienced people to VB CX QF J* the operational quality of your company will degrade to the point where it becomes a basket case. Further, those that stay and are promoted in order of datal seniority come to influential positions (C&T) are promoted before they have the depth of knowlege to do the job well.

I'm sure that your management knows this and would love to offer higher salaries to those that will stay with the company and also deliver on quality. There are people out there who would consider a reasonable package to come to REX (or Qlink) and actually add to the operational quality and not leave for an FO slot somewhere else. But, nah, because of datal seniorty, the company promotes people who are barely ready for T&C positions and can offer a sub-standard salary for doing the job. The reason that they can offer the sub-standard salary is obvious: supply and demand. There is, because of a limited number of quality applicants for the position no competition for the position. The employers know they have a captive market of pilots and reduce conditions as they seem fit.

Shame on you! I thought of all people, you would know better!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I read L_R_Ts post all I could think was "how typical"!

I have worked at companies that promote and employ on merit and also on datal seniority. I have never observed this 'back stabbing' as you speak of at companies that promote on merit. Never.

From anecdotal evidence, even companies with datal seniority can manipulate circumstance so as 'mates' can get promotions out of sequence. For example, a company in Perth failed some very experienced people so as some 'mates' could get an early shot at commands. The same company also lied to some other staff regarding the bidding intentions of some dataly senior FOs to manipulate these 'junior' (with about 3 times the flying hours!) pilots into their own bidding intentions*. As a result, some 'mates' (who were even more junior, both dataly and experiencially) got promotion to Captain. So dont tell me that datal seniority 'protects' the pilot body regarding promotional opportunities. If you think this, you really are a neophite!

As for you unfounded assertions that meritorious promotion results in a degraded standard, I defy you to produce objective studies that prove that to be the case. Come on; I'm all ears! Show me I'm wrong. I bet you cant, because there aren't any! What rubbish you speak! Amature hour mentality stuff is what you speak. Fool.

When employers have a captive market in there pilot body they are able to reduce T&Cs. We then all suffer as an occupational group. The capacity to say "stuff you, I can get a better deal somewhere else" and then leave is what will allow pilots to improve their conditions. Imagine if FO at the legacy companies could leave for DECs somewhere else. How do you think that that would influence the likes of Dixon et_al to see well trained, experienced pilots leave for somwhere else. They will be forced to improve conditions if the exodus threatens their operation. If datal seniority were universally removed, it then increases the options for allpilots; more options=more movement. Simple.

As cited in the Time article, American pilots have not come back to their employers because they can get a better deal elsewhere. It should be obvious that, as a consequence, T&Cs must improve so as companies can retain staff. This is part of a really basic economic axiom; through datal seniority we not only protect the weak and the semi-competant, but we regulate the market against ourselves. The companies must laugh knowing that when people leave they will have to start at the bottom again. This means that there are less 'better deals' to leave your current employer for. Datal seniority creates the captive market that holds us back!

Now tell me again that the Earth is flat. :cool:

[airman1]

Ralph The Bong........ Very well said i think you just summed the industry up in a nut shell.:ok:

Krusty 34 ...qoute: "Seniority is an opportunity to qualify nothing more"
Seniority is something that has to be earnt , and while i agree you cant do it if you hold back and sit on the fence but it definitely takes time!!

[KRUSTY 34]

OK Ralf (sic) lets take a deep breath!

The only reason that REX cannot attract quality candidates is because in the current environment they do not pay enough. Pure and simple. Now mate you really should read some of the previous posts regarding this issue.

The REX EBA allows for a variation of it's conditions due to extraordinary circumstances. When the time comes (and it is coming), and the company can longer upgrade it's F/O's to command, then the mechanism does exist for the employment of DEC's. If you were aware of the workings of the REX industrial agreement then you would understand that.

Secondly, the current time to command at REX is now less than 8 months. If you or someone you know aspires to the left seat of of a REX Saab, then I suggest you or they make their application without delay. By the time you are through induction, Ground school, Famil flights, Sim endorsement, Line training, Check to line, probation....., well I'm sure even you can get the point.

Thirdly, Due to the different employment dynamics of last decade, my wait for command was in the order of 6 years! Why? Because that was simply the way it was. All those that came before me waited their turn, and when their time came, stepped up to the mark and put to good use the years of experience that went beforehand. Most suceeded, some didn't, but everyone of those men and women deserved their place in the que.

So my misguided friend, take your judgemental attitude elsewhere, and do not come p!ssing and moaning to me because you feel that REX are denying either you or someone you may know a spot in the left seat. When DEC's come, It will be REX management that will do the asking, and I for one will not oppose it. The problem for REX however, will be that any pilot with the required experience will most likely have gone direct to a much higher paying position somewhere else.

[ACMS]

The only Pilot's that don't like the seniority system are the ones that did not get into a legacy carrier. ( from Rex right through to BA )

They want to bypass the established system and jump ahead of those guys/girls waiting for upgrade, the same guys/girls that have been in their Airlines system for maybe 10 to 15 years patiently waiting for their turn.


The system works well, has been around for donkeys years and most definately doesn't need changing.

Now if the Airline cannot upgrade their S/O's or F/O's due to experience then the mechanism is in place to allow for direct entry Pilots. THEN YOU CAN APPLY. BUT you will still be junior to everyone else for rostering and staff travel.

Simple AND fair

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Ralph you state your opinion as fact and my opinion as an absurd concept, nice job.

I have previously been employed as a DEC into a company, and then joined the que, no problem with that, some F/O's might have had a problem with that, but not one of them was qualified for command.

All the attribute of this type of workplace that you have not seen, I have.

Now tell me again that the Earth is flat.

What are you talking about ?.

All the anecdotal evidence you have provided is of a company that did not respect seniority, seniority is not a free ride, it is the opportunity for something, your turn, a show of loyalty to long service, if you do not meet the standard in the final check ride, no promotion, simple really.

If your mates did not pass their command, tuff tittys, there is no way the company would waste their profit margin " just going through the motions", sounds very much like sour grapes.

Neophite, on the line 12 years, so to some, yes.

I do not for a second think taking your skills to the highest bidder is a bad thing, what i detest is the workplace brown nose or boses nephew jumping the rest of the boys/girls.

I defy you to produce objective studies that prove your case oh great pseudo sage.

[Ralph the Bong]

Geezzus..! There's more members of the "Flat Earth Society" than I thought.

ACMS, therer are many, many people who are from 'legacy' carriers that dont support datal seniority. I am one of them, although I now work as a contract pilot for a company that both employs DECs and promotes on qualifications, experience and performance; a most frightening concept for some. Particulary those who have been in a sheltered workshop for several years.

Given the extraordinary growth in air travel over the last years, where is the commensurate growth in salaries in the legacy airlines. QF salaries now lag CPI. Your SOs and FOs at these legacy carriers can get promotion by either staying where they are or by changing employers. When Pilots are given the opportunity for other employment options, it increases the scope for promotional opportunities as you no longer have one employer to choose from. This creates an induced demand for your services and as a result the market has to offer higher salaries to either attract or retain your services.

Everyone benefits, including those trying to 'protect' their patch.

Krusty (that's RALPH btw), I have no, I repeat, NO desire to go to REX. I am aware of some guys who have significant SAAB and Dash8 command experience who might take positions at REX in a T&C role...if the price is right! However, why would these people want to take an FO slot and wait months for the upgrade? Why would they? Go from an management salary to line FO if even for 8 months makes the whole exercise a waste of time. As a result, the corporate memory and expertise or REX will continue to fall until the airline is an operational basket case. You sound like you did you apprenticship (over 6 years). How do you feel about guys with 8 months in multi crew operations having command of a flight? I dont know how the DFO can sleep at night.


LHR. THe guys that I spoke of did not fail their command ride, but a pre-command check that was apparently run by a someone who wanted to promote their mates. They got an upgrade at the next round of promotions and did just fine.

"Joined the queue". Yes, I've heard that expression many times. So where does the 'Q' start? What is the criteria of ranking? Should it start with date of joining? When you got your CPL? CTL in a multi-crew aircraft? Jet command hours? There would be no reason or incentive for me to join a company at the bottom of a 'list', that's for sure! Why would I place myself (12,000 hrs+, Jet command and additional qualifications) in a 'queue' "behind" some 1200 hr sprog fresh from the aeroclub, just because he started the month before me? Ridiculous! No other industry embraces this method of promotion to the extent that ours does.

Let's not forget that you made some assertions that safety would suffer from an abandonment of 'datal seniority'. We still await the evidence. Perhaps you could be a little more objective in the future.

If the removal of seniority has not led to better terms and conditions, how can you explain some of the massive salaries that are being offered in the contract world at the moment? The reality is that datal seniority regulates the industry to the extent that we cannot get market rates for our services.

When I tell buddies in other professions what Air Pilots put up with in paying for ratings, travel allowences, pay for endorsement, pay for interview etc, etc they CANNOT BELIEVE IT! They sometimes think I am making it up! Why has the growth of salaries for Pilots' so significantly lagged behind the growth od salaries for other professionals? The only real difference in employement practices and promotional opportunities is that in many companies, we are often expected to start at the bottom again when we change jobs. This means that people are not likely to move to another employer and thus, the existing employer has a captive pool of staff.

The result is inferior terms and conditions.

Ah well, off to work; another day, another $2,000...:}

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Wow, Ralph, you're pretty impressed with yourself.

A 1200 hours sprog that joined a month before you would not be a Captain, would he/she ?.

A 12,000 pilot, 18" johnson, jet COMMAND ( i really think you should put some more zero's on, you'll sleep better, bolded also to highlight how special you are ), joining a company as a Captain, so you'd be on considerably different senority lists.

If a 5,000 hour Captain joins the month before you, unless you're a C&T, join the line buddy.

One thing we do agree on ( also my opinion ) is the lunacy of paying for endorsements/training, if that means I will never fly for VB/J*, so be it.

Untill we as an industry start acting like professionals, why should we be treated as such, our employers certainly won't lift the bar, why should they.

"Captive pool of staff", you haven't been reading the papers lately have you ?, Pilots voting with their feet.

I stand by my opinion, a company without seniority is a very unhappy workplace, back stabbing, favours for mates,,,,,, think what you want Ralph, are you feeling guilty about something ?.

[Ralph the Bong]

I just re-read ACMSs' post 10# above:


"The Airlines don't want to get rid of it either, otherwise Pilot's would be moving all over the place all of the time, no incentive to stay."

Doesn't this encapsulate what I have been saying?


Do I feel guity about something? Why no, LHR, why? Is there something I should feel qguilty about? What are you trying to say?

[Air Ace]

Ralph is on the money!! :ok:

The Seniority System ensures pilot's terms and conditions will always reflect the lowest common denominator! I know of no other profession which practices an outdated and inflexible seniority system.

The seniority system ensures a small incompetent minority will be promoted beyond their maximum level of incompetence, based upon the efforts and achievements of a competent majority.

The airlines must love the seniority system; it gives them the ability to pay all pilots at a level commensurate with the productivity of a minority.

[KRUSTY 34]

Spoken like a true "Ace". :yuk:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

And the right winged approach of screw you guys i'm OK, i'll pay for my endorsement, work for less than everyone else seems not to be working terribly well.

You speak as though there are no means by which to weed out under performers, check flights. Whilst occasionally some slip through, generally a healthy C&T system with a good HCC is the best form of protection to what you speak of.

IMHO Air Ace, you have no idea what you are speaking of.

To go a step further, do you think you get a better deal in a unionised ( assuming a "above board union" ) workplace or under one on one negotiation ?.

[27/09]

The airlines must love the seniority system; it gives them the ability to pay all pilots at a level commensurate with the productivity of a minority

How is this productivity to be measured pray tell.

[mates rates]

seniority may not be the best system but it is the best system available.It has been tried and true over many decades past and I see the age old problems re emerging where it does not exist.

[ACMS]

Like I said before, those that didn't get into a Legacy carrier when they were younger HATE seniority. they would LOVE to come in as direct entry Capt or F/O and SCREW those that joined before them.

So tell me fellas, when you're at the staff travel counter waiting for the last 3 seats to Tim Buck Two how do you think the staff resolve the seats in a fair manner ?????????????

That's right..............date of joining, ie SENIORITY
Same goes for Rostering and Leave bidding.

I suppose you'd like to join CX as a direct entry Capt and get staff travel ahead of the rest too....:=

[KRUSTY 34]

Ralph, I did get the spelling right, (at least for the purpose of my sarcasm). I appologise if it went over your head.

You put forward some interesting points, but your overall opposition to the seniority system, and your alternative to it, would create a class system within the airlines. You, with your superior expereince, hours, jet time, pen!s, etc...., would be elevated to the upper echelons and pay scale of whatever organisation you saw fit to bless with your presence! Just when Joe Blogs, who had spent years climbing the ladder is ready for command, along comes Ralph, Ace, or some clone of the aforementioned, to neatly slide in there on the big bucks and the perks that may go with them. That is of course untill the next better offer comes along. Jesus wept!!!

Now I do take your point about an 8 month Captain with no previous multi crew command experience. But as you have quite rightly pointed out, the responsibility for that lies squarely at the feet of REX management. I do not feel ashamed of myself for defending the rights of others to have an opportunity to qualify. I do dispare however at the willingness of those who pull the strings at REX to allow the best and brightest to depart without so much as a phone call.

Recent events at REX have made the possibility of DEC's just one step closer. AS I have said in a previous post, the mechanisms for this exist within the current system. The reality of course, is that if any of your associates wish to avail themselves to one of these positions, the terms and conditions may have to vastly improve before their mercenary aspirations are satisfied. If that were to happen, then we will all benefit!

[Mr. Hat]

the minute i see the stuff about REX these days my eyes glaze over and i start scolling down. Its been done to death, just let them close in peace now.

As for the other topic, well people are just packing up and going where they can get the best deal. Gradually all the experience will leave our shores and this will become america.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

ACMS
Now if the Airline cannot upgrade their S/O's or F/O's due to experience then the mechanism is in place to allow for direct entry Pilots.

Or in the case of the airline that ACMS and I work for
....if the Airline will not upgrade their S/Os or F/Os due to financial and training load considerations, and don't give a damn if they dishonour your employment contract, then the mechanism....