A simple question

[jetshagged123]

Believe it or not, neither my company, CASA or Airservices Australia is able to provide me with a definitive answer to the following question, so I am putting it out there to the masses....

When making a straight in non-precision approach, but with the runway offset from the inbound track, once I ...
a. am in circling area
b. have visibility reqd
c. am able to maintain visual contact with ldg rwy environs

at what point can I break off from the lateral tracking requirements of the appraoch and runway align?
I know that declaring (OCTA) or asking for (CTA) a visual appraoch means all bets are off but let's assume that vis is not enough for visual approach but us enough to see runway from circling area.

For example, MEL 34 with strong right cross wind, you break out of cloud at say 3000', but you are cleared for MEL 34 VOR/DME, cleared to land.

I have always thought that once within circling area I can runway align but it seems many others seem to think it is either the MAP or the MDA, both of which I disagree with.

The arguments for having to continue to MAP or MDA are .....
ENR 1.1 para 11.4. Here it states:

"Unless authorised to make a visual approach, an IFR flight must conform to the published instrument approach procedure nominated by ATC.

but I think ENR 1.5 1.7.3 has the answer ....

During visual circling or during NPA...

Descent below MDA if:
a. maintain in circling area
b. maintain visibility reqd from chart
c. maintain visual with ldg rwy environs
and if complying with a,b,c at not less than MDA the pilot:

.........."intercepts position on downwind, base or final leg of the landing traffic pattern...."

So if you are above MDA but satisfy a,b,c - then I think you can alter track.

Latest advice from Air services Australia (it was someones interpretation but not a ruling as such) is that you must continue to MDA but as MDA is not a point, but an altitude, then I disagree. The position that MDA occurs on the inbound track depends entirely on quickly you decide to descend .

Also it seems utterly impractical to wait till such a late stage to runway align if you can safely do it at around 1500'.

So i open the floor to you all to see if we cant get a definitie answer to what I thought would be a simple question.

:ugh:

[Angus McGherkinsquirter]

You're right, it is a simple question to which you have the correct answer in you last par a,b,c etc. Jeppesen terminal 3.13 is word for word the same as your AIP reference. Not much to interpet IMHO!:ok:

[Ralph the Bong]

When you are in the circling area. The MDA has nothing to do with. When in the circling area you can do whatever you like to align with the RWY as long as you are clear of cloud with the required visability.

Just aim at the RWY.

And dont crash.:p

[jetshagged123]

Guys I agree. But would you believe in a sim when I did just this, the captain I was simming with, the instructor and an observer from CASA all said that unless cleared for a visual appraoch, I must continue on the inbound track until I reach the MAP or MDA before I runway align!!! :ooh:

[BackInTheSaddle]

Hi,

This is my first post so please be gentle.

I think that you need to continue to MDA or until you satisfy the paragraph below. I am not sure of the AIP paragraph but in the RAAF FIH, paragraph 1.14.1 - Visual approaches.

BY DAY

The pilot need not commence or may discontinue the approved inst app when

a. clear of cloud;
b. in sight ground or water;
c. flight visibility or 5000m; and
d. maintain a, b and c to within the circling area.

So the MDA doesn't really come into it until you actually reach it. If you are still doing the approach at MDA then the descent below MDA paragraphs apply.

Prior to that point then it is the rules about when you can discontinue by Day or by night.

Regards
BITS.

[jetshagged123]

I agree that the reference to the MDA seems a wishy washy approval to manouvre once in the circling area but I can't find anything better! Surely the intent is not to continue to MDA if you can see the runway? But if its not ENR 1.5 1.7.3 that enables the break off at the circling area then what does?

Good point though. I agree that ENR 1.5 1.7.3 is a badly written and confusing rule as far as interpreting whether it authorises the break off. But it's all I have!

lets say the following conditions

Vis 4500m
so you would see runway at roughly 2.4 nm out at 768 feet.

Surely the rules can't stipulate that when flying a non-aligned VOR/DME, you cannot align at 768 feet but must wait until minima at say 400' until aligning with the runway?

In a cat D aircraft this is making things much more difficult than they need to be!?

[Angus McGherkinsquirter]

BIS, your talking there about visual approaches as opposed to completing an instrument approach once visual in conditions less than VMC.

Jetshagged - a bit tough having three knowledgable clowns against you! Just leave the page open discretely next time.

[BackInTheSaddle]

Angus,

I think that the question actually relates to when can you break off from an instrument approach. This is what that the visual approach rules are about - When can a pilot discontinue an approved instrument approach.

The only time is when the visual approach requirements are satisfied (by day). Until those requirements are met then you must continue on the approach.

So if you are:

a. in the circling area;
b. can see the runway environment; and
c. have the vis required for visual circling and that is less than 5km;

then you MUST continue to MDA and then ascertain if you can comply with the requirements for descent below MDA.

Cheers
BITS

[Mr.Buzzy]

What would they do if the cloud base was 430 feet?

What if they break visual at 3000 feet at night?

Landing 17 at Canberra off the VOR, would breaking off to your own final position
be a good idea, particularly at night?

Visual approach via the star means just that. If the approach radial is part of the star then fly the radial.

If you become visual early you may ask or be offered direct to a final position.

[desmotronic]

The offset is there for a reason because the vor is slightly remote from the runway. Follow the radial and whaddya know approaching MDA the radial puts you right on the extended centre line as it was designed. Why make it hard for yourself... :8

[No Further Requirements]

Landing 17 at Canberra off the VOR, would breaking off to your own final position
be a good idea, particularly at night?

What if you were established on the VASIS? Would this come into it? I'm not a pilot, but I know a little about YSCB:E

If you were doing the 17VOR, I'd say once you were established on the VASIS, or inside the circling area, whichever comes first. As it is not aligned with an ILS, then it would be a maximum of 5NM from the threshold on the VASIS. Does this sound reasonable?

Cheers,

NFR.

[jetshagged123]

Yes but it is not always the case. TSV 19 VOR/DME is another hairy one to make the runway if you continue to MDA with xwind.

MEL 34 is another and the one I am referring to.

Surely within circling area you can manouvre freely without fear of hitting anything by day or night especially if on a three degree slope?

[Centaurus]

and if complying with a,b,c at not less than MDA the pilot:

.........."intercepts position on downwind, base or final leg of the landing traffic pattern...."



Unless you read the fine print (meaning you are entirely responsible for your own terrain clearance - day VMC easy but night VMC is another story), once you "intercept a position on downwind or base" you are safe to descend - in theory.

At night unless you know the aerodrome and local terrain like the back of your hand you are never safe to descend below the published circling MDA until you are established within the approach splay (read VASIS). Even the VASIS seen on base leg does not guarantee obstacle clearance until you are within 15 degrees of final -and in addition it depends on how far out the VASIS is certified for (Port Vila for example)

[illusion]

Air Services is full of blokes who wish they were pilots, and CASA is full of unemployable pilots; neither a fountain of wisdom.

[jetshagged123]

So who wrote the bloody rules then so I can ring him/he/they and ask what the intent of the rules is? :rolleyes:

[illusion]

You know the rules. Rule 2 is the same as rule one!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/discuss.wav

:rolleyes:

[HF3000]

The more prescriptive the rules become, the more pilots stop being pilots and try to become aviation lawyers.

The offset is there for a reason because the vor is slightly remote from the runway.Not necessarily so. The CBR VOR is aligned with the runway centreline. The RWY17 VOR approach path is not aligned with the runway centreline because of TERRAIN.

Breaking off early from this approach and turning RIGHT to align with the centreline takes you closer to terrain. Maintaining the 170 VOR approach course until MDA puts you in a perfect position to make a very gentle and subtle 2 degree turn onto final. Works well... so why do otherwise?

However, in MEL RWY34 VOR the approach path is 6 degrees off course and is so because of the location of the VOR in MEL (not runway aligned). There are no terrain issues there so it would not be against airmanship concerns to runway align earlier than the MAP/MDA. But can you do it legally? Good question - and I think that is the question being asked here.

I have reviewed the AIP and I believe the answer is "grey" (or not specifically dealt with). Therefore, I would suggest that the answer comes down to airmanship. There are millions of situations in aviation where the books are "grey" and that is what airmanship is about. So to answer the question asked: this is my answer:

"When faced with a question such as this, review the applicable documents (as you have done), ask questions of those in authority (as you have done), then sit down and apply airmanship and decide what YOU would do when faced with the situation, and having done all your homework, you can confidently face a board of inquiry to defend your actions if/when the need arises."

Law is rarely black and white. Aviation law particularly so. So don't spend the rest of your life trying to get a black and white answer on every question. Adopt the attitude of a Pilot in Command (slowly disappearing) - when faced with a question, gather the information you can, make a decision and move on. Don't dwell on it too long - there are plenty of other matters aviation that may be more pressing or worthy of study.

Rgs, HF

[ballistix71]

Perhaps this will help;

ENR 1.5 1.7
1.7 Visual Circling or During Non-Precision Approach (NPA)
1.7.1 A circling approach is a visual flight manoeuvre. Each circling situation
is different because of variables such as runway layout,
final approach track, wind velocity and meteorological conditions.
Therefore, there can be no single procedure designed that will
cater for the conduct of a circling approach in every situation.
After initial visual contact, the basic assumption is that the runway environment
(ie, the runway threshold or approach lighting aids or
other markings identifiable with the runway) will be kept in sight
while at MDA for circling (Reference: ICAO Doc 8168).

So firstly they can't say you have to fly the same procedure every time.

1.7.3 During visual circling or during a NPA, descent below the MDA
may only occur when the pilot:
<sections a, b, c snipped>
d. by night or day, while complying with a., b. and c. (at an altitude
not less than the MDA), intercepts a position on the downwind,
base or final leg of the landing traffic pattern, and, from this
position, can complete a continuous descent to the landing
threshold using rates of descent and flight manoeuvres which
are normal for the aircraft type and, during this descent, maintains
an obstacle clearance along the flight path not less than
the minimum for the aircraft performance category until the aircraft
is aligned with the landing runway;

This means that it can be done above the MDA, ie at an altitude not below the MDA.

This reference relates to both day and night. During day time there is no requirement to intercept downwind, base or final and you can descend below MDA provided you have the required visibility along the flight path and are able to maintain the required obstacle clearance etc. The belief that you have to fly to the MDA or missed approach point "IMHO" is incorrect. No where in the regulations does it state that you are required to reach the MDA or the missed approach point prior to commencing the circling manoeuvre. Nor do they go on to restrict the movement of the aircraft at or above the MDA inside the circling area unless designated on the actual approach chart as a restriction to the circling area itself. The notes after the relavent sections of the AIP also state;

ENR 1.5 1.7.3 (1) & (2)
Note 1: The concept is as follows:
(1) The pilot maintains visual contact with the landing runway
while the aircraft is circled at MDA to a position within the
traffic pattern that intercepts a normal downwind, base or final approach.
If the MDA is above the downwind height, the aircraft
maintains MDA and downwind spacing until it reaches a position
from which it can descend at normal approach rates to join base
see Figure 1.)
(2) When daylight exists and obstacles can be seen, the
pilot has the option of descending from MDA from any position within
the circling area while maintaining an obstacle clearance not
less than that required for the aircraft performance category.

So during day time you can descend from any position inthe circling area. At night time you can maneouvre the aircraft at an altitude not below the MDA inside the circling area to intercept downwind/base/final until the aircraft is aligned with the landing runway. So that means if you are not below the MDA, have the Vis and the runway environment in sight you can maneouvre onto the final approach and descend as you are aligned with the landing runway.


So after all that gas bagging;

You can maneouvre to align with the runway if;
You are not below the MDA
You have the required visibility and clear of cloud (ie meet the minima)
You are in sight of the runway environment
You are inside the circling area.

From this point, during the day, you may descend below MDA provided you maintain the required obtsacle clearance along the intended flight path, the minimum visibility and in sight of the runway environment.

During the night, at a height not below the MDA intercept final approach and complete a continuous descent to the landing
threshold using rates of descent and flight manoeuvres which
are normal for the aircraft type.

Now this is what I was taught and it is also what I teach during IFR theory courses and when in the aircraft. I've had heaps of discussions with other instructors about this and no-one has been able to tell me that I am incorrect. Most actually agree after discussing it. For flight tests and check flights if they want a certain way the saying is "when it Rome do as the Romans do".The truth is that when you work for someone, if they want you to do it one way then that's how you do it unless it obviously breaks a regulation or is unsafe. At this point you have every right to say hang on a sec.

So how's that clear as mud?

Cheers