Merged: 7.30 Report, Pilot's shortage (03 April 08)

[INTERESTED BYSTANDER]

Advertised preview of 7.30 Report (presumably Monday 31st) might be worth watching regarding the so called shortage of pilots in Australia.

[KRUSTY 34]

No "So Called" about it mate.

Be interesting to see if the good Jurnos at the ABC achieve a balance. So far most of the reporting on this crisis has been a regurgitation of company spin!

[Flyingblind]

Don't hold yer breath, most of what (as you all know) is reported is utter rubbish and puff pieces, or the overblown rantings of a single person (pot calling kettle?) there sole reason is to appear that they are in the know and reporting something 'serious' or in the instance of the commercial channels a chance for CEO's etc to play down the whole story.

More drivel from a dying and increasingly irrelevant medium.

[Whiskery]

I'll say it again................

There is NO pilot shortage in Australia, only a shortage of pilots wishing to work under ****ty T&Cs and poor remuneration ! :ok:

[Zhaadum]

AMEN Whiskery! I'll drink to that! :D

[Islander Jock]

The perceived shortage will last as long as China and Japan continue to buy ship loads of rock (ore) from WA and QLD. With talk of the US economy possibly going into recession and a subsequent decline in demand for imports there is always a chance of the current growth in fly in - fly out and supporting charter operations being seriously wound back.
I certainly hope it doesn't happen as like many, I am enjoying the benefits of the boom.

[KRUSTY 34]

Wiskery, Very true. But where are these pilots that will not work under ****ty T&C's and poor remuneration? If they currently reside in Australia, then one must assume that they are now gainfully employed in other jobs. They are more than likely uncurrent and are not contributing to the profession.

If they are working overseas as pilots, then they are by definition not in Australia, and have no bearing on the local scene.

If there is a whole generation of potential aviators that have failed to take up the profession because of the ****ty T&C's and poor remuneration, then this becomes academic as we may never know just how many of these people may have earned a control seat in a commercial aircraft.

Please don't misunderstand me. I believe there is only one way to garentee the adequate supply of professional aviators into the future. Good T&C's and much improved remuneration. But make no mistake, untill the airline managers in this country come to grips with this fact, all these potential pilots will by and large continue to persue other careers and work for other carriers.

The fact that they may be waiting in the wings is irrelevent. The fact that they are not working as pilots here means that there is a pilot shortage in Australia!

[bushy]

If airlines will not give pilots some sort of committment before they spend their money, and a reasonable long term outlook, they cannot expect the pilots to do it.

[Long Bay Mauler]

As Whiskery said:

I'll say it again................

There is NO pilot shortage in Australia, only a shortage of pilots wishing to work under ****ty T&Cs and poor remuneration

The same applies to experienced LAE's in this country.

CASA and the industry say there is a shortage of experienced AME's & LAE's,but some airlines have made lots of theirs redundant in the last 24 months,and now they want them to come back on lesser T&Cs and a worse off remuneration package.

Maybe Kerry o'Brien will mention that when he speaks about the shortage pilots in Australian aviation,as really the two shortages are linked by a common factor,namely short sighted management.

[AQIS Boigu]

...stop it!!! There is NO pilot shortage... I know of at least ten people (on pistons and turbo props) in QLD who are dying to get into VB because they missed out on JQ/QF psych tests/interviews...

AB
Quarantine matters!

[Aim Point]

Well AB, just a shortage of suitable pilot applicants then!!!

Not all of us have the aptitude for airline flying. Just because there is an undersupply, it doesn't mean the airlines are going to allow someone who is not suited to their requirements to occupy a seat.
There is also currently a shortage of doctors - doesn't mean the local GP is automatically considered suitable as a specialist! :hmm:

[Capt Wally]

As much as there is plenty of evidence to show that there is a pilot shortage by way of planes being parked up against the fence etc. I have to agree with AQIS in some ways because I too know of a few guys that have tried for the airlines also with more hrs than you can poke a stick at & they didn't get a show! A few others that I know of who also tried to get in some time back now before all of this pilot shortage rubish hit the airwaves have recently been asked to come onboard! And those of you out there are thinking well they (the ones that have missed out) must be no good or something then think again 'cause most are flying far more demanding jobs than sitting there driving a bus ! I believe it's because the airlines still want mostly 'button pushers' who can 'spell', jump when told to & how high & not the ones that can think on their own two feet with heaps of experience 'cause these types of guys are the ones that in the airlines eyes have brains enough to want more for their expertese, by way of causing trouble. They (the airlines) want a new type of Aussie pilot to fly the ships mof the future, one that is not union orientated & can be moulded with less 'heat' than ever before.

The well known T&C's & poor wages isn't going to stop too many, if you want to be an airline pilot in the new world of slave labor this is what you get, don't like it? don't apply!

Pilot shortage?, maybe not quite yet but it's coming to that! Will be interesting to see what the ill-informed journo's believe.


CW



CW

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday AB.

Once upon a time, an "experienced" aviator may have waited years, even decades for a shot at the big time. Patience Grasshopper. This game has only just begun!

[AQIS Boigu]

Aim Point,

I was referring to people who just can't get a VB interview...because you miss out on JQ/QF doesn't necessarily mean that you don’t have the aptitude... I hope you agree otherwise this thread will end up in a QF vs. VB bashing/discussion...


AB

[Speedbird 9]

Hi all, just finished watching the report and nothing about the pilot shortage!

[PlankBlender]

landof4x, you should get out more :E

[Dragun]

I looked up what was going to be on it tonight on the ABC website - there was nothing mentioned so I didn't watch. Much more efficient :p

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Why don't you write to the man ?:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/letters.htm

[Whiskery]

When there is no pilot shortage, why would the 7.30 Report waste their time doing a segment on the pilot shortage! ;)

[To infinity & beyond]

7:30 Report Tonight: Bailing out - the brain drain from Australia's skies.


Looks interesting.

[kimwestt]

The only real shortage in the GA arena is CP's who have their feet on the ground. One in particular - works 4 one of the east coasts larger GA ops - might have serious letter from serious people in regards to anti discrimination. Stay tuned !!!:uhoh:

[Tankengine]

ABC , on shortly!!:D

[Wellhung Unit]

Geez....The QF CP just don't get it does he....Give the Qlink boys and girls a job on a jet eventually, problem solved...........wake up

[Zero_au]

Sorry for late notice for SA Pruners but tonites show has a report on the pilot shortage. It suggests that airlines that don't pay properly may fold! WA members will have some time to spare before it shows. Do you guys in the West get the same report as us here in the eastern states?

[Friction Nut]

.....and apparently the majority of pilots leaving Qlink are going to mainline or Jetstar... :ugh:

I believe NOT

[Green gorilla]

Its on in WA.:ok:

[Zero_au]

Crikey Tank, we must have been tapping away on the computer at the same time!!

Zero

[Gearupandorrf]

Is it just me or did Chris Manning not present very well in front of the Camera- seemed very uncomfortable? Even my Wife made the comment that he looked like he was trying to hide something.

Still- could never top the Engineering Mgr (David Cox??) when grilled on TV re: the "Staples" incident!

[puma4319]

Yeah when he blatantly lied about Qlink pilots all moving onto Jet* and Mainline he seemed very uncomfortable. It was a good report, but i'm a bit dissapointed with his performance. I thought he'd have more integrity than that. Is it me or did he seem like bit of a puppet for managment?
Shame Rex declined being interviewed too...I would of liked to have seen their take on it all.
All in all though i'm happy it wasn't another pure crap media story regarding the state of the industry, but seemed like they had done a bit of research this time! :ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

I had to laugh. More guys are/will have left QLink in the last 12 months for external jobs than the sum of all pilots that have progressed to Mainline in the last 12 years!

Capt. Manning either has no idea (and is out of his depth), or is clearly toeing the company line....

I'd suggest the latter. :ugh:

[Flyingblind]

Thought it very telling that Rex declined to comment. Still a pretty good effort from the ABC crew.

[Bluebottle]

Jarse, he's just chanting the company mantra...at least he looked extremely uncomfortable doing it, so he obviously knows the truth.

A shame the report never asked WHY the regional pilots can't have progression to mainline after jumping through the hoops at Eastern/Sunnies.

As for Rex not appearing...............

[tenfouroldmate]

Shame Rex declined being interviewed too...I would of liked to have seen their take on it all.


Seems to be the common management practice for REX... Don't acknowledge the problem and maybe it will go away!:)

[KRUSTY 34]

You know, I used to believe that Chief pilots were there to be the link between the pilot group and management. After about 5 minutes in this game I came to realise that they are no more than Company "Yes Men"!

A certain CP who worked for Gerry years ago put his integrity before ambition, but alas he was the exception.

As for the program, I think the measage may be starting to get through.

Captain Ian Woods: "Those that pay the most will keep their pilots, those that don't won't have any".

Peter Harbison: "It's bad now, but it looks like getting a whole lot worse."

Does any of this sound familar? Rex declined an interview of course. I mean do these people realise just how incompetent they look. It may be a case of remain silent and let them think you are a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt!

Jesus wept!!

[Veruka Salt]

..... and absolute BS that mainline pilots aren't leaving to go overseas.

I hear that another mainline 767 Capt has just interviewed with EK.

[B A Lert]

Sadly, Chris Manning made used-car salesmen look good. For whatever reason, he looked very very uncomfortable as he was probably dreading a few hard questions. They weren't put as we saw and heard as journalists today have no concept of the aviation industry. That's why some of Chris' colleagues have never been (deservedly) skewered.

[tenfouroldmate]

"Those that pay the most will keep their pilots, those that don't won't have any".

I agree with this statement but have concerns that the cadet schemes that Q_link and Rex are running (however efficient they may or may not be run) may be a way out for these companies to pay top wages. IF the above companies can survive the pilot shortage by operating with cadets (for the next say, 2 years), paying them sub-standard salaries will undermine the attempts of the more experienced pilots to get the wages they deserve.
It happened in the pilots' strike in the 80's and has happened in other industry strikes as well. Pilots that were willing to work for nothing got the jobs.

[KRUSTY 34]

tenfouroldmate.

I reckon that's exactly what REX have in mind. Problem is whether REX like it or not, they need ATPL rated pilots with at least 2000 hours and 500 multi command to sit in the left seat! They also require SIM instructors and qualified line Check and Trainers. The continued loss of these people will ensure that the cadet scheme will not only not save REX, but will most likley end in tears for all concerned.

There is only one answer. And we all know what that is.

[LEvans]

Erm, it's 7:20 in WA now, so unless we get the 7:00 Report, or the 6:45 Report, it aint on :P

[puff]

Amazing how Rex is willing to put on media releases about how bad the problem is blaming all the majors for 'poaching' their pilots, and when they had a free opportunity to talk about it on a tv show dedicated to the issue that they suddenly went all quiet ? Strange.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

If you make your own bed, ie screwing pilots for about 30 years, Farking lie in it!!!

[celco]

Two comedians in back to back articles. Both very entertaining but only John Clarke, alias Fed Dag, telling the truth.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Enjoy India Lofty.

Josh

[Going Boeing]

I just watched a replay on the website and CM didn't say that the QantasLink guys were staying in the Qantas Group - he said, "A few will leave, but most of them stay within Australia". As the majority are going to Virgin Blue then, I guess he is correct.

I agree with the previous posts about how uncomfortable he looked.

[turbinejunkie]

GB

Small correction needed:

CAPT. CHRIS MANNING, QANTAS CHIEF PILOT: Our salaries and our conditions are certainly equal of any in the world. We don't, we're not seeing Qantas pilots leave and go overseas.

Transcript straight off the ABC 7:30 Report Website: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2207270.htm#

Regards

TJ :ok:

P.S. When will these management types wake up and see the real world as it really is? :{ :ugh:

[Shot Nancy]

CM was my mentor in QF. I left QF to work overseas. Better renumeration and better long term prospects. So he really is speaking with forked tongue.

Anyhow some will whinge, some will quietly suffer and some will take action. It will not be until a lot more take action that chief pilots will wake up, then most probably they will move on and leave the fix to someone else.

[puma4319]

You had to keep listening GB:

REBECCA BAILLIE: But there are Qantaslink pilots leaving, aren't there?

CAPT. CHRIS MANNING: A few will leave, but most of them stay within Australia.

REBECCA BAILLIE: Qantas chief pilot Chris Manning admitted more than 20 per cent of Qantaslink pilots have left the carrier this financial year alone. He says the majority have gone to jobs with Qantas mainline or Jetstar.

Personally I have no idea whether most are going to QF or Jetstar, but from what I hear the majority aren't, rather going to VB as you said GB. Why would he say that when it clearly isn't true?

Oh and anyone who missed it, here is a link to the video: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2207270.htm# :ok:

[TruBlu351]

Erm, it's 7:20 in WA now, so unless we get the 7:00 Report, or the 6:45 Report, it aint on :P

Hey bud, that's why it's called the 7:30 Report :ok:

[Wiley]

I'd almost be willing to bet a month's pay that not once in the program was a certain government's and airline management decision to crush a union back in "that-year-no-one-dares-mention" mentioned as the root cause of the current malaise - and that the Silver Haired Bodgie, who still pulls in his generous parliamentary pension, was responsible for it for reasons we-dare-not-mention-here.

[WynSock]

I need a holiday.

[vigi-one]

If recent crisis meetings at QLink are any thing to go by, Manning may not have been given the correct info regarding pilot numbers.

My review of numbers leaving North Eastern (formerely Sunstate) since Jan 07
shows 58% of the pilots have left - 4% overseas, 6% mainline, 9% jetstar, 39% Virgin. The most pertinant fact is that all senior C&T captains are leaving for Virgin.

[Poto]

Amazing how Rex is willing to put on media releases about how bad the problem is blaming all the majors for 'poaching' their pilots, and when they had a free opportunity to talk about it on a tv show dedicated to the issue that they suddenly went all quiet ? Strange.

I also thought Rex's decline was a little strange, however this sort of issue does not do the share price much good:=

I thought Ian Woods hit the nail on the head. "You pay, your crews will stay; end of story"

Also the AFAP dude who said something about the low wages after large training outlays.

These were the only comments of fact in the story:cool:

[Kangaroo Court]

Don't beat up on your chief pilot. Under no circumstances should you ever do that; if he hadn't gone to the dark-side already, you guys might have just sent him there.

[Pundit]

Give Chris a break for just one minute.

This problem started back in the days of Ray. He was a yes man who sold out the soul of flt ops. When there was a pilot shortage, rather than address it, he became dual endorsed!!!

Then came Poor sad old Ian, a man simply lost in the circus. He time is imfamous for its nothingness, a complete blumbler. So flt ops relevance slid even further.

And now Chris, Unfortunately, being a union boss with no management experience did not equip him well for the role. Now we pay the price.

Chris has known there was a problem coming for a long time. Unfortunately the Chief Pilot of QF is a long ....long ......... long way down the food chain. His best mate Big Pete ignored him, little John ignored him. That is an indication of the true relevance of the pilot management group to GD and co in the airline.

Chris is now the fall guy. Whether you feel sorry or not for him does not matter

Why was he speaking for the other group airlines? He has no responsibility or accounability for them. Where was little AJ? He is one person who will always be remembered in Australian aviation, him and his HR "wizard" (RG), the man who is prepared to pay upto $450K for key pilots from other airlines but unwilling to look after his own

The story Chris was required to tell last night would have been scripted by the PR people. He was the messenger.

The real question for Chris is simple. Am I prepared to give up my integrity to save a has been executive team.

We all know he was telling lies last night. Let no one be fooled, except the fools!!

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"The real question for Chris is simple. Am I prepared to give up my integrity to save a has been executive team."

I guess we all now know the answer to that one!

[Capt Wally]

Interesting that most in here where dissapointed that REX made a 'no show' (me to dissapointed) but what do you all really think REX would have said if they did turn up?
We are going to keep our pilots (what's left of them) by paying good wages? I DON'T THINK SO!
We are training cadets to be part of a wider based crew resource that will ultimately be experienced enough to take CMD in a year or so? I DON'T THINK SO!
We believe that there's no real pilot shortage just a fast moving industry that we are handling by way of blaming others. CORRECT, but then again the tooth fairy also tells lies!, dollar under my pillow. pffffft what about GST?:bored:

In a strange sort of way am glad REX never showed up, the last thing we pilots need is BS that's made public!


CW

[dylanbob]

Captain Manning said that services to certain ports were reduced without cancelling services to any port.
What about Mt Hotham ?

[megle2]

I don't know the CP so he could be a vibrant, personality plus guy.

But on last nights performance he certainly looked uncomfortable and spoke in an unconvincing manner.

Not leader material on that performance!

[capt.mofo]

7.30 Report Website Vodcast if you missed it.

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/730report/av/podcast/20080403-730-pilotshortage_video4.wmv

How is the Qantaslink Traineeship 'fully funded'?? You need an existing CPL before you can apply. Therefore not FULLY funded. If the jurno's had done a tiny bit of research they would have found this out on the Qantas website.
Seems like Chris is burying his head in the sand. Quote 'we are not seeing Qantas pilots going overseas.'

[Artificial Horizon]

Don't worry about it guys, once this Global credit crunch and property market price plunge takes full effect in the next few months then the 'pilot shortage' will be well and truely over for another few years.:{

[Spaz Modic]

:p Pay peanuths - get monkeyths! :ugh:

[Grogmonster]

Guys I see all this prattle about wages all the time and it never ceases to amaze me that you carry on about management not paying decent wages. Do you really think they do it just because they can?? If any of you got down off your high horses for just 30 seconds and applied yourself to understanding basic business principles you "may just may" get the idea that the very people who are giving you that job that you think you so richly deserve are struggling in a very competitive enviroment to make enough money to keep their company viable.

In any business the largest weekly expense, aside from the aircraft operating expenses, is the wages. If you pay higher wages your aircraft hourly rate goes up and this directly affects the charge out rate for the aircraft. So if you follow the spiral the market forces dictate that the higher the rate the less attractive your rates become to the customer, you know those pains in the butt who sit down the back, the people who really pay your wages. No customers = no flying = Boss goes broke = "NO JOB"

So the solution is if you don't like it then get lost because it is people like you who get Mummy & Daddy to pay for you to learn to fly that don't belong and maybe that is why the airlines didn't give you a job even though you had 2000 hours and were "very experienced". They don't want some ?hiT Stirrer in the company who runs of to the unions and tells tales every time the roster doesn't suit. If you think I am being harsh well have a think about it and try running your own business and dealing with the Arrogance that is dished out by you people on a daily basis.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Grogmonster, what are you talking about ?.

This issue is about: no pilots ( due to better money and roster elsewhere ) = reduced numbers of flights = pissed off pax.

So the companies can either force Pilots at gun point to stay, pay them better money/fix the roster or go broke ( because many companies will and have stepped up to the plate ), pretty simple really.

I am no fan of the silver spooners either, but this is not about them.

Arrogance, compare the industry rates of pay against other industries, then against mortgage repayments for the average house.

If a company can not negotiate a reasonable salary with staff, then afford to pay said salary, do they deserve to be in business ?.

Salary rates are set by the laws of supply and demand, under supply of Pilots at present, so the companies need to adapt to this new environment or be uncompetitive and have no Pilots.

[max1]

Grogmonster,
At this stage I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a troll.
The people who run these companies are continually running the line that their payrises are in line with market forces. i.e these are the T&Cs required globally to get the right people. It seems reasonably simple to apply that to other positions in the company.
Don't preach restraint unless you are willing to apply the same principle to yourself.It is galling to see people trotting out this line whilst lining their own pockets to the detriment of the company AND the bottom line.
In aviation you strive to employ intelligent can-do people then are shocked to find that they don't swallow the company spin. Go figure.

[Metro man]

Some of these companies need to learn, it's not he 1990s anymore with walk ins and resumes arriving every day. Pilots with the sort of experience they want to employ are in short supply. Just look at Fridays Australian, plenty of "first jobs" being advertised, jobs that ten years ago would have been snapped up the instant they became available.

If someone has laid out $50 -100 000 on their qualifications, do you really expect them to work for taxi driver money. Try telling a newly qualified accountant he should get $35 000/year and see what he says.

The old business model where pilots were abundant cheap labour need to be re worked. I live in the economy and need to earn enough to buy a house, and do my shopping. If you won't pay me enough I'll find some one who will or do something else. Arguments that I should work cheap so you can have a business, and at least I've got a job won't get very far when I've just spent $400 in 45 minutes at the dentist and my acountant charges $60 an hour.

I want the going rate for my services, ten years ago when pilots were abundant you were quite happy to take advantage of it, now it's my turn. :E

[404 Titan]

Grogmonster

You’ve just regurgitated something I learnt in year 11 Economics. When I went to university though and studied accounting in the mid eighties I quickly discovered that what I had learnt in high school economics was far from the whole picture and infact in some cases was plain wrong because of its very simplistic view of reality.

By the way there are a lot of pilots that frequent this forum that have considerable qualifications in addition to an ATPL. I suggest you think about that the next time you tell us to “get down off our high horses for just 30 seconds and apply ourselves to understanding basic business principles”. Pretty arrogant comment if you ask me from someone that quite obviously has little more than a high school economics education.:yuk:

[mattyj]

In my company, the receptionist gets paid more than the pilots...she bugs us when its 1 month before our medicals are due and we have to pay..$400 this year..more than a weeks pay after tax:*:*:*

[QFcaptain]

"In my company, the receptionist gets paid more than the pilots"

Why do you still work there then?
Do you have any self-respect?
you're making a joke of yourself mate.

[max autobrakes]

Really do you think either Manning or Dixon is worried , by the end of the year both Manning and Dixon will have taken their respective retirement benefits and bonus' and will be walking out the door laughing all the way to the bank, giving the bird to who ever is left to pick up the pieces !

[QF2]

I don't know what you all expected CM to say. No, he didn't exactly speak the truth, but if he wants to keep his job at the end of the day he needs to say the right things by those above him. Also, if he wants the company to do well, he knows that it basically comes down to the number of punters you've got on seats. Most people who watched this won't be pilots who know the real situation, so it won't look good if he goes saying negative things about the company in front of them. Pity about those constraints though, coz I'm sure that he'd have a few good things to say if it wasn't going to paint the company in a bad image or lose him his job.

Don't bother shooting me down over half defending him, just seriously what do you expect him to say when management's breathing down his neck?! :uhoh:

[777Contrail]

Defend the defenceless.
Always speak the truth, even if it means death.

In the end, you are worth nothing more than what your word is worth.

[Towering Q]

the very people who are giving you that job that you think you so richly deserve are struggling in a very competitive enviroment to make enough money to keep their company viable.

Grogmonster, must be hard to keep the company 'viable' when you treat your staff like the enemy.

[fl610]

QF2 you would be a top man to be in the trenches with. :uhoh:

[7x7]

QF2, 23% of us were "reasonable men" just like you when push came to shove back in 1989.

[KRUSTY 34]

Grogmonster.

In the imortal words of John Belushi: " My advice to you, start drinking Heavily."

P.S. You do live on planet Earth, do you?

[QF2]

I said don't bother shooting me down, did you seriously think he'd throw away his job, and probably his career, for an interview? I'm not saying that it was necessarily the correct thing to do, but you'd be kidding yourselves if you actually thought he was going to come out and say the full truth.

[ACMS]

Why don't one of you guys write to the Jerno at the 7:30 report and fill her in ( so to speak :ok: ) on the real facts?

You never know what she might do if she had all the details.

And as for Grogmonster: you sound like Aircraft.........he left the scene, why don't you join him?

[farrari]

ACMS, no that did not work .I rang the 7.30 report to tell them how it is but she DID NOT BELIEVE ME, what the :mad:

[ACMS]

That'd be right....................never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Maybe a few more guys/ girls ringing her up might convince her, then again...........

[blow.n.gasket]

What's her e-mail address?
That should do the trick!

[max autobrakes]

Manning ,what a popular chap!
His own pilots don't care much for him, he alienated the Impulse boys when he was AIPA president and now he's well and truely pissed off the Eastern pilots, who's left?:uhoh:

[tenfouroldmate]

Grogmonster...

I hope you were just after a reaction when you submitted your post. If not...

...people like you who get Mummy & Daddy to pay for you to learn to fly...

Try to understand that not every pilot has their mummy and daddy looking out for them. Some of us don't have that luxury and have earned our own CPL (or even a PPL for that matter) for which we paid every cent from our own pocket.

Secondly, we do not need to be told how difficult it is to run a business. You're no Marco Polo there sunshine.

I was horrified to read your post and believe that if you have such negativity toward this site, DON"T BOTHER LOGGING IN. From all I have read at pprune and from my own experience in the aviation industry, it appears to me that the folks that are here all have a justified point of view, even if I don't always agree.

If there are complaints about such things as poor salaries for example, that's because some pilots are today being paid less than $30K to fly a twin turboprop. AFTER forking out $60K + to get the licence to be there. FACT.

And no, they shouldn't have to piss off if they don't like it.

[romeocharlie]

Every single flying job I've had, bar the current one, I've had to have another job in bar/restaurant just to supplement the income to afford to live. I also worked 3 jobs just to pay for a majority of my flying, and have a very friendly bank manager who 'lent' me the rest (now hexable apparently). I'm aware how difficult it is to run an aviation business, but as far as becoming aircrew is concerned - my situation is APPALLINGLY COMMON. The fact also remains that the minimum wage for quite a number of aircrew jobs is actually below the poverty line in Australia. That according to me is not being 'overpaid.'

Gets off soapbox
RC

Has anyone sent the link to this forum to ABC?

[bushy]

Wages are so low because they can find fools to do it for so little.
Anyone who flies a twin turboprop for less than $30,000 PA is VERY foolish, and is doing enormous harm to the industry. I earned $43,000 for flying a twin turboprop in 1992.
I think many do it because they think they will get into a big shiny jet next year. Those who have not got some sort of committment from an airline should think hard and long about what they are doing. It has been stated that the airlines only accept one in every hundred applicants.
So you should only accept jobs that are properly paid, and consider it long term. If you do otherwise, then blame yourself, and don't complain, because you are adding to the problem.

[romeocharlie]

I realise that 43K back in 92 was a lot of money, but the STANDARD rate of pay in Cairns alone is very similar and isn't a great deal of money. You can earn triple the award driving truck unqualified in a mine if you'd like (this is the choice). I personally am very happy with what I am currently paid, but if I'd said can I please have the award wage back when working on a station was considered a privileged job, the owner would have told me where to go.... This wasn't directed at you bushy either. The award rate for a graduate architect is quite poor too. As was said, it's a choice, you can either accept getting paid peanuts or not have a job. Bills still need to get paid.

[max autobrakes]

I heard that in NZ when the pilots at AIR NEW ZEALAND let slip to the media during pay negotiations that a number of their pilots were on Special Assistance payments from the government in order to make ends meet, the company was that embarrassed they backed down.

I wonder if any pilots in Australia can access something similar?
here's a link that might help
http://myaccount.centrelink.gov.au/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4g39ggGSYGZ7oH6kWhijggRX4_8 3FSgeKQ5UMDcP1A_RD_SXT9I31s_QL8gNzSi3NDCEQAF8cxi/delta/base64xml/L0lDVE83b0pKN3VhQ1NZWW9LVVEhL29Gb2dBRUlRaENFTVloQ0dJUUlTRkNJ QWdBR2Nad1dFQVFCZy80QjFpY29uUVZ3R3hPVVRvSzc5WVE3RG1HNFJBLzdf MF83T1EvMzMwL29yaWdpbmFsQWN0aW9uLyUwaW50ZXJuZXQlMGludGVybmV0 Lm5zZiUwcGF5bWVudHMlMHNwZWNpYWxfYmVuZWZpdC5odG0!#7_0_7OQ

[Knulp]

$65-70k for 733 FO in '89?

[blow.n.gasket]

And what was that as a multiple of the average wage back then as opposed to what an F/O earns today Vs the average wage?

[tinpis]

Mug punter was on $25k in 1989....so ...roughly a third ...which would mean $210k for an EFFO today and $75k for punters

[max autobrakes]

God I love progress!;)