Cause of Willowbank C206 crash

[oldschooljenko]

There was a skydiving c206 that went down a couple of years ago at Willowbank. I was wondering if anyone knew the cause of it. I heard a rumour somewhere that it had something to do with an icing problem. Haven't had much experience with turbo charged engines and was wondering if there were additional dangers with regard to icing when operating these.

Cheers for the replies

[To infinity & beyond]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2006/AAIR/aair200600001.aspx

But,


Technical examination and test of the aircrafts engine and its associated components did not reveal any anomalies with the potential to have individually contributed to the partial engine power loss.


And


There may have been an anomaly of the engine or its components present during the accident flight that was not apparent during the subsequent disassembly, examination and testing of the engine and its components.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Definitely NOT icing.

Very hot day.
35deg C
Very heavy load (7pob).
Almost 3550lb vs 3300lb certified max
Low time pilot.
5 kt tailwind on T/O
Possible fuel problem...
The current US Federal Aviation Administration approved Supplemental Type Certificate SA2123NM supplemental operational documentation relating to usage of the auxiliary fuel pump in the Cessna U206 is ambiguous regarding the operation of the pump for takeoff. That ambiguity could result in the inappropriate use of the pump and subsequent engine operational issues.

Notice the pic on page 28 of the PDF report.
See anything missing?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Besides Filters, earth straps and not in good repair, no, nothing.

[puff]

A must read for anyone considering a tandem jump and the 'standards' of the APF and 'some' parachute operators.

Sadly if half the stories i've heard from pilots about that operation are true, the whole incident was an accident waiting to happen from a LONG time ago.

A sad needless loss of life, as are most aviation accidents.

[Jabawocky]

You know the old story......

"Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane?":uhoh:

"Have a closer look at the plane, and why the pilot is wearing a chute too!:eek:

Not necessarily the opinion of the publisher:E

J

[bushy]

"why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane?"
You will probably never, ever know.

[Islander Jock]

Have a closer look at the plane, and why the pilot is wearing a chute too!:eek:

Jump pilots wearing rigs has nothing to do with perceived condition of the aircraft. It is because of the inherent risk of a premature opening parachute wrapping itself around the tailplane and bringing everything down in an untidy mess.

[RadioSaigon]

It is because of the inherent risk of a premature opening parachute wrapping itself around the tailplane and bringing everything down in an untidy mess.

...and here was me thinking it was because it is a legal requirement!!!

[heywatchthis]

Its not a legal requirement

[Islander Jock]

From memory the APF op regs state something along the lines of an emergency parachute and training must be provided to pilots of jump aircraft. I don't recall any mention anywhere of pilots being required to wear said parachute whilst jump flying. So whilst not a legal requirement, a study of some cases overseas and in Australia point to the fact that it could very well save your life.

[RadioSaigon]

hmmm.... ok, may be I weighed in a bit quick. I haven't flown jump myself, but was based at a very active jump-zone airfield in years past -in NZ. I'm pretty sure the jump pilots there told me they were required under regs/CAR's to wear a chute on jump ops. Maybe someone operational can clarify?

[Jabawocky]

Islander Jock

I did know that....was being a cheeky smart ar$e and its true to say that is probably a bigger risk than the aircraft falling apart.

Mind you, around this part of Oz, apart from a C208 at YCDR, the rest all look very tired and in need of TLC.

J:ok:

[frothy]

Jaba
Over the years I've seen some wrecks on the line for GA hire. Some I wouldn't have minded a Pilot's rig to do a 30" trip:)

Frothy

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Maybe it's time the industry made everything compliant with commercial ops instead of hiding behind the APF agreement by saying "it's private ops".
By every other definition it is a commercial op and its bulls:mad:it how pilots will promote this practise by flying for nothing after having paid over $30K to get their qualifications.
Not entirely free of guilt. Originally thought, "Well I'd have to pay to get these hours at a flying school", but having seen the pilot at Willowbank die at a very young age with no insurance, super or pay for the privelege I'm sure many will agree.
All being said many operators are now paying their pilots and yes, the operator of the C208 out of YCDR does run a very professional operation.
(He is the APF Flying Ops delegate.)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

To wear, or not to wear...

Years ago at Kambalda, doing the local Para club a 'favour'...I didn't need the money anyway...they gave me a 'Slimline' chute which I wore religiously...just in case.

And, as the Chief Parachutist Instructor found out one day, I would have used it too...

I wasn't concerned about the state of the aircraft - I have chosen not to fly some aeroplanes before, and this one was OK - but just 'if' someone wrapped around the tailplane or whatever.

If you've got the urge to do para drops, protect yourself just as you would doing any other 'risky' op. is reasonable advice.:D

[knox]

Yes in NZ jump pilots are legally required to parachutes.

Knox.

[frothy]

I flew Jumpers for a period of over twenty years, Yes, I wore a Slimline and would have used it if the situation warranted. The Chief Pilot flew for the one Para Club for over 35 years also wore one, in fact he went and did a couple of jumps so he was competent to use it. I was instructor for a number of years before I did the flying for them so I had a fair idea on the use. This was before it was recommended. Not much use in the Dragon. to hard to get out of, but I have been a jumper on the Dragon when it pranged(VH AGC) but we didn't get high enough to get out of it. The dust still going up when I left it.
I remember years ago a good Pilot we knew had a problem dropping Jumpers onto a beach in the Sydney area in a Noresman had a problem and got out, he said he had watched the jumpers go out in a stable spread, he did that but when he came in to pull he went head down so he went back to the spread to get stable, this happened a couple of time until it was,"got to do something" time. He pulled head down on the unsleeved canopy. very solid opening:)
I had an eng. failure in a 185 once at 8500', by the time I turned round to tell the Jumpers we had a problem, I was talking to an empty aeroplane,plenty of height, landed no power, no big deal thanks fellas:p
So my advice to anyone flying Jumpers, wear the rig supplied and get a thorough briefing on its use, even going for a Tandem would be an idea. If your flying for a Mob I can't see why they should not GIVE you a Tandem jump
We never had a maint. problem with the A/c we flew, as only the 2 of us flew it and HS (CP) handled the maint. and we didn't have the need or urge to beat the Jumpers down to the detriment of the Powerplant or Airframe
So if you've got a rig, wear it, I hope you don't have to use it, but you might be very thankful one day

Frothy

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Had I known then what I know now, I would also have worn a parachute while aerotowing gliders!

Dr :8

[RadioSaigon]

Yes in NZ jump pilots are legally required to (wear) parachutes.

Thanks Knox, that's what I thought. Begs the question then why things are different in Oz, given that we both operate under an (increasingly) similar regulatory structure.

[Brian Abraham]

Australian Parachute Federation Regulation 5.1.14. A serviceable parachute and training in its use is to be made available to pilots of parachuting aircraft.

[knox]

Quote: RadioSaigon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox
Yes in NZ jump pilots are legally required to (wear) parachutes.

Thanks Knox, that's what I thought. Begs the question then why things are different in Oz, given that we both operate under an (increasingly) similar regulatory structure. Quote.

I think also in Oz its a legal requirement for all jumpers to wear a seatbelt. In NZ no such requirement.

Knox

Ps. thanks for the correction.:ok:

[hair of the dogma]

"the operator of the C208 out of YCDR does run a very professional operation"

I don't know of any professional C208 operations that run out of Caloundra.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

What...haven't seen the overgrown cessna parked at the end of the T junction as you drive in??:cool:

Yeah yeah.
For those who aren't aware, Sunshine Coast Skydivers use a c'van owned and crewed by Al McVinnish. Owns about 4 of them. (MMV, NMV, OMV and ZMV from memory.) Bases ops out of Toogoolawah. C'vans used by SCS, and the crew near Byron amongst others. Might have seen them on Outback Jack and the Ice Break ad (anyone notice "Al" written on the side of the female pilot's headset?). Al is very particular about how his aircraft are flown. Do something stupid and you'll know about it.

Happy?:rolleyes:

And you will see Kenny's C208 also parked there from time to time with Chopperline. They professional enough?

[kalavo]

MMV, NMV, UMV and ZMV

Though I believe the fleet has dropped off a little bit.

Byron Bay got rather annoyed at Al and decided the best solution to the problem was to buy ZMV and run their own operation.

I heard a rumour NMV may have moved on as well, but don't quote me on that.

[j3pipercub]

Zulu bought by byron but still crewed and maintained by Al. November in Woolongong with skydive the beach. Oscar the most recent acquisition, the latest I know of anyway

[hair of the dogma]

Oh I take it all back, if Kenny's 208 is there then there may be one professional van operator in Caloundra. Proffesional is not a word I would use to describe McVinishs flying circus.

MakeItHappenCaptain I am happy but its got nothing to do with your post. Why the adoration of Al?

[puff]

A SKYDIVING centre owner has admitted he may have distracted a pilot as he tried to control a flight which crashed west of Brisbane two years ago killing five people.

A coronial inquest in Brisbane this week is investigating the circumstances which caused a modified high winged Cessna 206 to clip a tree and flip into a dam near Willowbank about 30 seconds after takeoff from the Brisbane Skydiving Centre on January 2, 2006.
Volunteer pilot Anthony Winter, 22, from Brisbane, Irish skydiving instructor Nigel O'Gorman, 34, British instructor Colin Hicklin, 41, Briton Susanne Williams, 49, and Barbara McLelland, 40, of the Gold Coast were killed.

Skydiving centre owner Brian Scoffell and Gold Coast woman Mandy Best survived.

Mr Scoffell today told the inquiry the plane had sounded normal on takeoff, but he realised it was in trouble shortly after when he felt the power pull back.

He said he asked the pilot to check whether the auxiliary fuel pump was on before telling him not to stall the plane.

He said Mr Winter had been trying to keep the plane in the air when he looked backed at Mr Scoffell and the plane's wing hit the tree.

Asked by counsel assisting Ian Harvey whether his orders had distracted the pilot at a crucial time, Mr Scoffell replied "possibly".

He agreed with counsel for the Australian Parachute Federation's barrister, Tony Entriken, that it was the pilot's obligation not to be distracted by passengers.

Mr Scoffell told the inquiry he believed Mr Winter should have attempted a forced landing on a nearby field to avert the disaster.

He said his decision to continue to fly was the wrong one.

"I expected him to put the nose down and look for somewhere to land because once you stall you've got no control over it, you just crash and die," he said.

Investigators have failed to find the cause of the accident, but Mr Scoffell said he thought the plane's turbo elbow may have broken.

The inquiry has previously heard from witnesses who said the engine had sounded odd while idling on the runway and black smoke had come from the plane.

Mr Scoffell said that was normal after the plane had been fitted with a 350 horsepower overhauled turbo-charged engine.

The inquiry continues.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23883487-3102,00.html

[zac21]

Hair of the dog,

Oh I take it all back, if Kenny's 208 is there then there may be one professional van operator in Caloundra. Proffesional is not a word I would use to describe McVinishs flying circus.


You are so right about that !!!!!

Zac.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Zac and HoD,

s'pose it all depends on your point of view, but compared to other PJ outfits I've seen, Al is miles ahead.

As for adoration, HoD, it was more of a trivia point, but if you're set on writing off everyone who doesn't immediately agree with you, well there's not much to say, is there?:hmm:

[OCTA]

McVinish a Pro? "There are no obsticals a Cal so just get within 3 miles and you can decend to 500' to get visual. You'll be fine I've done it heaps of times" And that was in a VFR 182 let alone his "how to fly a caravan like an airline pilot " lessons. Or "Don't worry about making radio calls there is no one around" Trying to save the almighty $

Woka woka woka woka!!!!

OCTA

[Tibbsy]

Parachutes for drivers

Australian Parachute Federation Regulation 5.1.14. A serviceable parachute and training in its use is to be made available to pilots of parachuting aircraft. ''Made available to pilots" is different to "pilots must wear"

Private vs Commercial Ops

Couldn't agree more with MakeItHappenCaptain - The better skydiving operators are slowly getting there but I still maintain that the majority of tandem operations are commercial and should have commercial standards applied (AOC etc). Private ops my a*se! :yuk:

Flying Circus

Seen a few less than professional incidents involving the aforementioned caravan owner. Like CLOSE form with a non-rated pilot in lead and scaring the cr*p out the more sensible meat bombs by sneaking abeam the lead a/c and putting his wing in front... The man used to boast about turning off his radios when transiting through the Oakey CTZ whilst returning to his property on the 'Downs.

compared to other PJ outfits I've seen he might be miles ahead but all that does is illustrate the low benchmark in that industry. :(

[kalavo]

Australian Parachute Federation Regulation 5.1.14. A serviceable parachute and training in its use is to be made available to pilots of parachuting aircraft.

Am extremely glad they brought that in. There will always be people who choose to wear or not wear a chute for their own religious reasons. However having this in their regs is much better than the former situation of a pilot having to fork out for a rig when the operators religious views dictated that pilots shouldn't wear a rig.

The aforementioned caravan owner doesn't even come close to the best PJ operators I've seen. Lots of warped ideas out of there - some good practices too, but a number of warped ones. That said, there are others that are worse.

[cjam]

Makeithappencaptain,
maybe you have had bad luck with the drop zones you were involved in because there are operations out there more professional than his. I have worked for a worse one than his, but only one. The ones that I consider better than his are better because there is not one domineering overpowering personality at the helm. If you fly for him and have doubts about some of the ways you are expected to operate the a/c I would suggest asking the advice of professional pilots, (ones that hold a CPL and an instrument rating,) and then make up your own mind. Don't fly VFR 182's in IMC, don't let down on home made instrument approachs. Don't be pushed around by the DZ owners. Set your limits and stick to them. They might jump up and down and scream and tell you you'll lose your job but they'l probably call you back next week to carry on flying. And if they don't, at least you are alive.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Cjam,
You're better off directing your advice to anyone considering PJ work. I got out of that side of things many years ago.:ok:

[cjam]

heh heh yeah, forgot I'd put your name at top of post and was happily rambling off on a tangent, sorry :)

[Brian Abraham]

''Made available to pilots" is different to "pilots must wear"
Appreciate the point you make Tibbsy, but it would be an nut of a pilot not to take up the offer, Corowa Caravan accident should make a believer of anyone. Am amazed at the standards at some of the DZ's these days, or rather the lack of them. When I started jumping in the early 60's it was highly regimented, being based on the Army jumping ethos, in fact you could be forgiven for thinking you had signed on to the military. Pilots in those days did not wear chutes and was not even thought of, so standards do change over time, some for the better and some not.

[Clear to drop]

Brian,

I think you mean the Caravan incident, at Nagambie DZ.

ATSB report: 200101903 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/AAIR/aair200101903.aspx)

[Brian Abraham]

Clear to drop - correct :ok: