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fantaman
30th Mar 2008, 18:19
With the Scottish National Party (SNP) now in power North of the border, the First Minister Alex Salmond and a few other high profile Scots are looking for a referendum on Scottish independence in 2010.

Without this turning into a political SNP slagging match, what will happen to the Navy, RAF and Army if the Scots do decide to go it alone? Will they have a joint defence plan? If they do split, how will aircraft, troops and ships be divided between the countries?

Beatriz Fontana
30th Mar 2008, 18:25
Considering it's the Royal Navy, the British Army and the Royal Air Force, if Scotland decides to split from Britain and choose to have a head of state other than that of the United Kingdom, then it's game over for the Armed Forces as we know them at present.

A big move south, then, you're on your own.

The logistics of such a move would be a nightmare, though.

Union Jack
30th Mar 2008, 19:14
" ..... if Scotland decides to split from Britain and choose to have a head of state other than that of the United Kingdom ...."

From www.scotland.gov.uk's (http://www.scotland.gov.uk's) statement on An Independent Scotland:

3.25 On independence, Her Majesty The Queen would remain the Head of State in Scotland. The current parliamentary and political Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would become a monarchical and social Union - United Kingdoms rather than a United Kingdom - maintaining a relationship first forged in 1603 by the Union of the Crowns.

Jack (aka Jock)

buoy15
30th Mar 2008, 19:35
Easy option might be to declare UDI and impound or commandeer the lot - banish all the Westminster trough gobblers - a new Land Reform Act, giving all the estates to the crofters and letting them decay - sending non conformists into exile - rigging elections - rebuilding Hadrians Wall and restoring all Scottish Castles - Blah Blah Blah
Sound familiar - shades of Rhodesia (Zimbabwe)?
It's looking like Neanderthal Mugabe has lost his election
Hopefully, Mr Salmond has better ideas for a future Scotland - which is more than I can say for the present Sourpuss, his mentor Bliar, and the Scottish Cabinet, which is destroying the UK and tearing the heart out of England as we used to know it

Love Many, Trust a Few, Always paddle your own canoe

Monty77
30th Mar 2008, 20:04
Well I'm English, and I mean ENGLISH. All the Scots mates I've met have been Scottish, and they'd probably say SCOTTISH. Thing is, we've all had a common military background/outlook, which means we've rubbed along famously. Same thing with the Yanks/Canucks/dare I say Frogs.

Snag is, you then meet folk with different outlooks. Lawyers, politicians, criminals. All the same to me. They have a significantly different outlook to anyone treading the boards here as you're a military aviator.

All Scottish mates in the UK military are part of a fine tradition they share with the Irish, Welsh and English. There is no denying it. It's British military tradition. It's undeniable historical fact. Do not let the weasle words of political shysters today disconnect you from those who gave their lives and died yesterday.

Brown, Blair, Cameron. All names today with whom we are familiar. Can you imagine any of the aforementioned doing anything involving bravery, self-sacrifice, or death for their country?

Nope, thought not.

Because they are self-serving politicians

Before you have a rant about Scottish Independence/ English Rights, have a good hard look at the pigs with their faces in the trough. They are the scum, and they are spending your taxes, on themselves, whichever side of the border you're on.

Soz. Rant over.

Mnice. Or not, in this case.

glad rag
30th Mar 2008, 21:42
Monty :D:D:D for that reply.

Wensleydale
30th Mar 2008, 21:58
I'm all for it - we can get rid of the foreigners who are ruining England and kick them back to where they belong! We can then have a proper ENGLISH government for England without Jocks imposing in their rabid MPs upon us.

I suppose that Scotland does have some future as a historical amusement park for visitors - like Longleat, we could throw peanuts to the inhabitants as we richer tourists drive through. This is not as far fetched as it seems as the Scots have invented time travel. Each time I used to drive up to Lossiemouth, I went back 30 years once I entered Coldstream.

What about the oil you ask? If you take an average line of the Scottish border and extend it into the North Sea (not just turn the border East as it reaches the North Sea) then the majority of the Oil Fields are English! (Although they can have Berwick back - it rained last time that I was there).

I now await the comments about Bannockburn etc - however, like their rugby team, an occasional fluke victory is trumpeted for centuries (they still usually lost the war though :ouch:) Roll on Pinkie, Solway Moss, Flodden and Haildon Hill (plus many others too numerous to mention).



Pull Pin, Throw and Withdraw.

preduk
30th Mar 2008, 23:00
I fully support Scottish independence, however this issue was a problem that I couldn't get my head around.

I would imagine dramatic cuts in jobs and funding (if the British Army was split) as Scotland doesn't really require a huge force. I would imagine Trident being cancelled and Faslane dismantled. I'm not sure what we could do about the RAF, however I would imagine all Scots soldiers and regiments returning back to Scotland for good. We could even call them by their proper name rather than the Royal Regiment of Scotland (Whats that all about?!)

Wensleydale,

As the poster requested, he wanted a view on the military and not what would have happened to Scotland. If you are so negative about my country, perhaps you should have a good read at the amount of money Scotland produces to this economy and what Scots have done in our history including creating some of the largest companies in the world HSBC, RBS, BOS etc

tonker
30th Mar 2008, 23:30
If they didn't have a fire brigade, then they wouldn't be able to call it out on strike!:

ps Midhurst in Sussex was the only UK town to choose not to have any air raid sirens. Blue lamps were instead installed to alert people of an incoming raid.

Union Jack
31st Mar 2008, 00:00
If any of this happened - and its a very big "if", perhaps the best future for a Scottish army would be the recreation of as many of the former regiments as practicable. They could then become the 21st century Gurkhas - available to serve the Whitehall government, or any other for that matter!

Jack (aka Jock)

PS With guaranteed residual citizenship rights of course ....

MOVAGAIN
31st Mar 2008, 00:21
Enough said.

Thelma Viaduct
31st Mar 2008, 00:31
Is it possible to straighten out hadrian's wall a bit, and get the gravel chewers to ha'way the geordies while they're at it???

Dan D'air
31st Mar 2008, 05:31
I fully support Scottish independence

I think you will find that everyone here in England does too, we would pay a heck of a lot less tax, never have to suffer under a Labour government again and could have the clocks on CET.

goneeast
31st Mar 2008, 06:15
I think that the legacy that Blair/Broon and the over representation of Scots MP's in the government has already left us with is that SOME scots want independance ( although how they will annex Marbella to count Sean Connery in remains to be seen). But MOST English are content to see them go their own way, and good luck. Would it mean a nice large tax cut south of the border as we get rid of Broon and his ilk?

The thing that I find illogical is, however, the SNP's love for a more federal Europe and the Euro.. Out of a democratic union, into a undemocratic socialist blob..frying pan..fire.

althenick
31st Mar 2008, 08:32
I am a scot who neither believes in Independence or devolution (Came to my senses 5 years ago)

I intend to start a petition demanding that since the voting majority of Scotland had voted SNP and therefore presumably like the idea of independence. Then it would be appropriate that as a first step and to allow scotland to decide its future that the following should happen.

- Any public money over and above Scotlands own GNP should be withheld by Westminister (Barnet Formula)

- The Scottish government should be give free riegn on tax raising.

... So when Adolf Salmond and the McReich start taxing the people of Scotland beyond belief for Bu88er all improvements then they'll know the real cost of independence.

Althenick - Scottish by birth, British by birthright

Wensleydale
31st Mar 2008, 08:39
:E I am so disappointed.... usually a quick national insult gets the Jocks biting like rabid rabbits. Perhaps Sunday night is counting the pennies under the bed night?

I note the comments about all the businesses that Scotland has given us - I see that banking (ie hoarding money) comes high on the list. While on the subject, you can always tell a Scottish 5 note. It says on it "I promise to owe the bearer..."

GPMG
31st Mar 2008, 09:16
A few options.

1. Build a rather large chainsaw, cut the offending country from ours and mount a couple of big Johnson outboards onto it and sail it off in the direction of Greenland.

2. Move Hadrians wall a few miles south...(just below sheffield should do).
That should cut the dole/druggy/usless population of England down by 95% and allow those of us in the productive part of England 'darn sarf' to get on with and enjoy life without being contantly reminded that we are distantly related to cave men.

3. Use the nukes at Faslane to level Scotland and then get the Irish over there to tarmac it so it can be used as a giant car park for those visiting England.

althenick
31st Mar 2008, 09:22
Ok Wednesdayvale - I'll Bite

What about the oil you ask? If you take an average line of the Scottish border and extend it into the North Sea (not just turn the border East as it reaches the North Sea) then the majority of the Oil Fields are English! (Although they can have Berwick back - it rained last time that I was there).


1st off Turning the border east wasn't Scotlands Idea but I beleive is International law.

I now await the comments about Bannockburn etc - however, like their rugby team, an occasional fluke victory is trumpeted for centuries (they still usually lost the war though ) Roll on Pinkie, Solway Moss, Flodden and Haildon Hill (plus many others too numerous to mention).


You'll not hear any from me - though to be honest the Italian Gay Midget didn't do 3 bad in 1745 ;)

I note the comments about all the businesses that Scotland has given us - I see that banking (ie hoarding money) comes high on the list. While on the subject, you can always tell a Scottish 5 note. It says on it "I promise to owe the bearer..."

Not just money - How do you make a Paisely Omlette - 1st Borrow 3 eggs... :hmm:

Talking Radalt
31st Mar 2008, 10:15
Did you know that Edinburgh was the first city in the world which had its own fire-brigade?
Well it is built on a volcano.........

charliegolf
31st Mar 2008, 11:08
we would pay a heck of a lot less tax

Hey, Cheesy, look, the banter's back. Dan can't be seriously expecting that fairy tale to come true. Can he?

CG:ok:

Strictly Jungly
31st Mar 2008, 11:18
I don't think we should we too alarmed at the moment, unless of course, Sean Connery appears and bangs on about Scottish Independence then we are in trouble.
A bit rich really considering he lives in Marbella...mind you its the same syndrome that famous Scousers have............they go all misty eyed and rant on how good Liverpool is...........and yet they all live in Buckinghamshire!!!

Let the Scots have Scotland I say............

Wensleydale
31st Mar 2008, 11:24
Althenick,

Indeed, the Italian Midget seemed to do OK in 1745 although against a few part time militia regiments that were ill equipped and ill led. However, he did run away from Derby once the professional army appeared on the scene in 1746, culminating in an engagement rarely seen on the banners in Murrayfield - Culloden Muir.

Wader2
31st Mar 2008, 11:52
Considering it's the Royal Navy, the British Army and the Royal Air Force . . .
A big move south, then, you're on your own.

The logistics of such a move would be a nightmare, though.

Not so sure.

First the change could be done in the same way as the break up of the USSR with existing forces remaining in situ and open to bargaining - pay to get them back or swap them for simething else.

The original plan circa 1970s was for resident personnel to be offered a level exchange.

Logisitic nightmare? Possibly, possibly not.

Re-jigging the comms infrastructure should not be an impossibility.

Army units are generally semi-autonomous although there will be English based units that might be recalled north of the border.

RAF units swap regularly and it would be a very neat solution at ISK. Similarly at ISL, they could transfer south. Leuchars would simply retain the surplus ex-RAF F3.

The more difficult issue would be the Clyde base and the dockyards.

Dan D'air
31st Mar 2008, 12:59
Dan can't be seriously expecting that fairy tale to come true

Oops, Should have posted that tomorrow.

Leuchars would simply retain the surplus ex-RAF F3.


At least we would be guaranteed a win in the next away match if they were flying against the Typhoon.

Backwards PLT
31st Mar 2008, 15:30
Personally I think that scottish independence would be a disaster for both Emgland and Scotland.


Quote:
What about the oil you ask? If you take an average line of the Scottish border and extend it into the North Sea (not just turn the border East as it reaches the North Sea) then the majority of the Oil Fields are English! (Although they can have Berwick back - it rained last time that I was there).
1st off Turning the border east wasn't Scotlands Idea but I beleive is International law.


Now I am no legal expert, but I do know that international law is not "draw a line at a random cardinal point". It is actually something like "draw a line perpendicular to the coastline." Now which bit of coastline you choose is the difficult bit, but something like 060-070 seems about right - go look at a map.

althenick
31st Mar 2008, 15:56
Indeed, the Italian Midget seemed to do OK in 1745 although against a few part time militia regiments that were ill equipped and ill led. However, he did run away from Derby once the professional army appeared on the scene in 1746, culminating in an engagement rarely seen on the banners in Murrayfield - Culloden Muir.

Bearing in mind he was Italian he might have been tempted to change sides :O

Sparky01
31st Mar 2008, 15:58
Flt Lt Mac has forgoten Ancient Rome which had a fire brigade many years before Edinburgh became a city.

corsair
31st Mar 2008, 16:29
Despite Mr Salmonds optimism. I very much doubt the Scots would want complete independance. No real advantage to it but plenty of disadvantages. The English stopped oppressing the Scots a while ago and in any case the Scots are in the process taking over England via the Labour party:ok:

It would be ironic for the Scots to go independent leaving Northern Ireland in the UK considering that most of the 'Unionists' are of Scots origin and all the trouble everyone went to, to keep it in the UK. Maybe NI could join the Scots and call the place Scotlireland. maybe!

I don't think it would change much in terms of the military. After all even today there are a couple of Irish regiments in the British army. I suspect there would be no rush to form a Scottish army, Navy or Air Force. That would gobble up a lot of Scottish taxpayers money. They will need all that to pay for all the hospitals in the new 'SHS'. I think the bases would stay were they are for now. America has bases in Britain. It doesn't make Britain the 51st State, does it?:p

No, the only way there would be trouble would be if there was an attempt by England to retain those parts of Scotland where a majority voted against independance. It might be called Southern Scotland or British Scotland or something with the border carefully drawn to ensure an artificial majority of loyalists. No, that would be bad. I think it was tried once before with unfortunate results.:hmm::)

OilCan
31st Mar 2008, 17:12
Wensleydale

once the professional army appeared on the scene in 1746, culminating in an engagement rarely seen on the banners in Murrayfield - Culloden Muir.

...cause most of the Edinburgh jolly fellows were part of that professional army - and had been since 1633 - over 100 years before Culloden Moor. :=

eg. 1st Foot (Royal Scots) - the oldest, and senior infantry regiment of the British army - (at least they were until recently)

Culloden was not an England/Scotland match - it was a British goverment surpression of a civil/religious uprising over the rightful succession to the throne. :oh:

Do us all a favour - Google 'Act of Settlement'. :ok:

Monty77
31st Mar 2008, 18:29
With clans fighting on both sides.

Elmlea
31st Mar 2008, 18:47
It doesn't make Britain the 51st State, does it?

No, but I read a very interesting editorial once that suggested we ought to look into that rather than fighting about things like Scottish independence.

If you split the UK up, and divided England (as the most populous country) into 2 sections plus London on its own, we could form 6 new states. Northern Ireland has about as many residents as Nebraska, Scotland as many as Missouri, Wales equals Nevada, and London alone is more populous than Virginia. The rest of England has more people than California (the biggest US state in terms of population) and Michigan combined, at least using the figures extracted from my mate who studied geography some time ago.

If we voted together on anything, being 6 of the biggest states would give us a lot of power. We could sneakily take over the US! :E

Monty77
31st Mar 2008, 19:10
Mmmwwhhahaarr!

And then, (pause for effect), THE ISLE OF WIGHT!!!!

Mwhar,

Mmmwharr!

Dr Evil has spoken. Isn't it.

Monty77
31st Mar 2008, 19:13
I bought some wicked trousers in Camden yesterday. They've got pockets and shit.

Harsh.

Beatriz Fontana
31st Mar 2008, 19:23
It is tho, innit. Random...

engineer(retard)
31st Mar 2008, 19:50
Why is it only the Scots that are being offered a vote? It affects both sides, so the English should have the same opportunity.

regards

retard

BluntM8
31st Mar 2008, 20:46
Say what you like about the Scots, but you have to admire their sense of identity. (Along with the French...) If they have the balls to make a serious push for independence then fair play to them. Most contempary Englishmen will be too busy drinking and fighting amongst themselves. Saw a TV programme which tried to address what it means to be English. Apparently it's "Three lions on my shirt, innit?"

:ugh:

Blunty

CarltonBrowne the FO
31st Mar 2008, 21:27
I worry about how well the English would cope if they didn't have us to run their country for them. Still, I suppose after Independence we could still run it, but on a consultancy basis. We wouldn't charge excessively high fees...

knowitall
31st Mar 2008, 21:52
"First the change could be done in the same way as the break up of the USSR with existing forces remaining in situ and open to bargaining - pay to get them back or swap them for simething else."

or it could be done in the same way as the Qubec independance referendum, fly all the decent kit out the night before!

the snp's defence rhetoric mentions the EU and the UN but not NATO,

my moneys on the "Scottish Defence Services" being roughly equivilent to the Irish Republic's defence force in size and capability

BackfromIraq
31st Mar 2008, 22:07
A point worth noting for those who think Scotland contributes more than it takes from the Union: the Barnett Formula gives Scotland 10% of the tax take for 8% of the population, ipso facto England subsidises Scotland just as it subsidises Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Barnett Formula was devised as a short term measure to last for not more than 2 years about 50 years ago (details are a bit vague for me) and is still in use because successive politicians have felt the need to subsidise the Scots. Equally, Northern Ireland gets a huge cash subsidy because of the political and religious problems, something that runs into billions of pounds.

If I was born in Wales I would be Welsh;

if I was born in Northern Ireland I would be Irish;

if I was born in Scotland I would be Scottish;

but, because I was born in England I'm British...

Thelma Viaduct
1st Apr 2008, 00:49
"An Englishman's home is his castle."

Southern yar yar mincing folk:

Come back and talk about 'English' when you can pronounce the word 'castle' without an 'r' in it.
That would be a good place to start before you flash your borrowed wealth.

I wouldn't want to remind you what once made Britain 'great' and who pissed it all away.

I'll happily saw away at the 52nd parallel, when do I start ?

Caspian237
1st Apr 2008, 03:34
I'm Scottish but also proud to be British. I hate these sorts of topics. Usually you get some mean spirited Englishman/Scotsman who expresses their narrow minded view point about Scotland/England which is immediately reciprocated by some equally mean spirited Scotsman/Englishman, and so it goes on for eternity. Why don't these people get off the internet and back to writing their complaint letters to the council about their neighbours hedge encrouching on their property?

To the original poster's valid question, in my opinion the armed forces of the United Kingdom would simply be reduced in size in relation to the reduction in resources & manpower. Excess hardware would be sold. For its part it is unlikely scotland would be interested in mainting a large force and would probably follow the example of the Republic of Ireland or Iceland or some such country.

Al R
1st Apr 2008, 07:48
Blunty,

By comparison, isn't Scottish identity Mel Gibson? England might have its problems, but it sure as hell doesn't have a persecution complex.

Barnett is clear. English tax payers lose out - simple. But hey. Why should we shoulder the burden alone? The EU is overdue another indebted and dependent emerging state, sponging off the collective mass and further enforcing another layer of the professional political class.

Good luck to the Jocks. It might take us a while to filter out the 5th Columnists in Westminster, but they can keep what's left of the oil and their Friday night village hall style of politik too.

Mag to grid. :ok:

Dan D'air
1st Apr 2008, 13:25
Let's just get rid.

glad rag
1st Apr 2008, 15:17
Ohh so dismissive.....

sitigeltfel
1st Apr 2008, 17:41
It may have gone over the heads of most of the Sassenachs, but the policies that Eck the Fish and his Tartan Toe-rags are bringing in are designed purely to wind up the English, and boy are you falling for it.

Free education, care for the elderly, reduced prescriptions et al. are nothing more than sharp knives designed to poke the English with. They disguise the latent Marxist make up that Scottish Nationalism wears under its kilt. The one thing that Salmond and his apparatchiks are afraid of is a vote on outright nationalism; every poll shows the majority to be against it. Until the Scots wake up to the joke that is being played on them then they will continue to be treated with suspicion by their neighbours.

As for the Barnet Formula, it is unfair and outdated. But there are some inner city areas and deprived regions in England and Wales that are receiving close to the level of disproportionate funding that is being awarded to Scotland.

GPMG
1st Apr 2008, 17:54
Thanks for your input Plot , do you just drip and whinge about the state of threads and posts? Or do you roll over and beg as well?

Monty77
3rd Apr 2008, 21:22
Roll over and beg?

Can't remember much about that, and I went to Winchester, if you know what I mean.

Mnice. Mmaybenot. MNot so sure.

Random.

Beatriz Fontana
4th Apr 2008, 08:42
The Scots can pack away their thoughts on independence for the time being, as Gordon Broon has introduced some new coins reinvigorating The Union. And anyway, you really think all those Scottish cabinet ministers are going to give up all their perks and second houses darn sarf without a fight, the two faced so and sos...

Monty77, did you still have non-uniform days at Winchester where you could wear your Camden trousers??

8-15fromOdium
4th Apr 2008, 09:11
But there are some inner city areas and deprived regions in England and Wales that are receiving close to the level of disproportionate funding that is being awarded to Scotland.


Deprived regions such as London which which gets an extraordinary level of funding when compared to the rest of the country (including Scotland). I'm afraid London is the root of the nations problems, can we make that independent with its politicians, journos at al?

Monty77
4th Apr 2008, 19:34
Beatriz, they are mostly wicked strides, chap.

Sorry for the thread creep, but I saw Armstrong and Miller on a link on an email from a mate back in UK.

I found it hilarious. Given as what I doesn't live in Blighty no more, are those guys mainstream tv humour now?

Also, pub landlord. Classic.

Here's my literary recommendation after I acted on the sound advice here on pprune for rivetting flying-type reads:

'Three Cheers for Me', by Donald Jack.

If you find Armstrong and Miller amusing, you'll like this book. First in the series of the Bandy papers. Bit like Flashman, but with flying.:ok:

Dan D'air
4th Apr 2008, 20:45
I went to Winchester

Isn't that a really strict school, Man??

Beatriz Fontana
4th Apr 2008, 21:00
Sorry chaps - temporary thread drift...

Monty77,

There's been audience testing of a new series of Armstrong and Miller and my spy tells me there are more RAF sketches. No transmission dates of yet, tho.

Standard!

dogrobber
5th Apr 2008, 01:01
oh dear another racist comment, you are surely struggling with your own national id, or is the daily moyle just running out of little englanders, och aye, gemalch, guttentag, bienvie,.. faulch geal , behindiert.....no these are not mong geezer slang words you abso nob!!!:p

Monty77
5th Apr 2008, 21:54
Beat

Cheers chap.

Harsh.

preduk
5th Apr 2008, 22:53
This post is full of typical Labour and Tories non-sense arguments that have no bases of research.

Scotland doesn't get anymore money that any other part of the UK, in fact if you look the consultants of Oxford Economics, they stated that Scotland gets 9,631 per public head compared to 9,748 of London and 10,271 for Northern Ireland. Even though Glasgow receives high incapacity benefit compared to areas, its still 3,086 lower than Northern England.

The amount of Tax Scotland pays is only beaten by London, no where else in the UK pays as much tax as the Scots do.

Gavin McCrone, one of the top economist, released a report under the freedom of information act that Scotland had provided over 125Billion worth of oil which helped fun the Iraq war and the recent nuclear programme (which is highly opposed by Scottish MPs).

Now you are probably going to use the argument that "not all of the Oil is Scottish".. sadly you will find that almost 90% of the oil is. In fact, Westminster already recognises that the North Sea north of the 55th parallel falls under Scottish jurisdiction, and international convention decrees that this would be the dividing line. Some 90% of the UK's oil and gas reserves lie within Scottish waters, and this percentage is set to rise as new fields to the west of the Shetland Isles and into the Atlantic are explored. Scotland is currently Europe's most energy rich country, however we seem to get poorer and poorer.

At the moment people seem to think that London supply them with their money, this is mainly based on the Government Expenditure which stated Scotland was short by 8.1bn that year. What they never added to the report was the income generated from Whisky, Oil and Scottish Workers who worked for a London Based company. Areas of Scotland also pay higher VAT on fuel in areas such as Aberdeen.

If we are that bad, then that would only reflect the failure of the Tories and the labour governments who have been running your country also.

Scotland is a rich country with potential. Yet her average growth rates over the past 25 and 10 years have been 22% below the UK average; while the small countries in the EU have grown twice as fast on average over the same period. The opportunity cost of this in money terms is enormous, let alone in personal or cultural terms.


So.... What are the benefits to Scottish Independence?

Simple... They could change the taxes so that they suit our local businesses, an example of this is the British Government decision to increase tax on alcohol which is going to affect the Whisky industry highly in Scotland.

They could set our own defence budget, they would no longer need to pretend we are a country with an empire. They could also refuse to setup Trident and invest the money elsewhere in local jobs and businesses to generate more money.

They could represent our industries better within Europe because at the moment the UK Ministers really don't care, they could show what we need for our fishing industry.

Why is it, that countries throughout Europe who have less resources seem to be doing better than them?

Maple 01
5th Apr 2008, 23:43
Sorry, Sweaty OK? :E

OilCan
6th Apr 2008, 00:25
preduk

you said,
They could set our own defence budget

so, back to fantamans original question
what will happen to the Navy, RAF and Army if the Scots do decide to go it alone?

Backwards PLT
6th Apr 2008, 04:25
Now I have no strong feelings on Scottish independence, but I know a completely biased, pick-the-facts-you-like argument when I see one.


Scotland doesn't get anymore money that any other part of the UK, in fact if you look the consultants of Oxford Economics, they stated that Scotland gets 9,631 per public head compared to 9,748 of London and 10,271 for Northern Ireland.

You have typically compared Scotland to the 2 other biggest areas. How about comparing to the rest of the UK by region? Scotland is high.


The amount of Tax Scotland pays is only beaten by London, no where else in the UK pays as much tax as the Scots do

Is this total or per head? There is a big difference.


North Sea north of the 55th parallel falls under Scottish jurisdiction, and international convention decrees that this would be the dividing line.

Interesting - never heard of that convention, can you quote the source please? It would be contrary to all other similar situations around the world that I know of.


What they never added to the report was the income generated from Whisky, Oil and Scottish Workers who worked for a London Based company.

Of course not. You can't count it both ways Scottish companies abroad and non Scottish companies in Scotland - it would make the statistic non-sensical. Unless all assets of non Scottish companies will be immediately seized as in Venezuala. In which case valid point.


Scotland is a rich country

No its not. Despite "Exciting new discoveries" Scottish oil is declining fast. Whisky wont run an entire country (although I appreciate the Scots have tried!)


They could represent our industries better within Europe because at the moment the UK Ministers really don't care, they could show what we need for our fishing industry.

They could try, but how much clout do you think a small country like Scotland will have in Europe or the world?


it's a serious discussion

No its not. It's a Professional Pilots Rumour Network (military section). Dry your eyes, wetpants.

As I said at the start, I did not write this to argue for/against Scottish Independence, but simply because I hate to see ridiculous propoganda peddled as serious and factually correct discussion.

What do you reckon, Alex?

alwayslookingup
6th Apr 2008, 06:42
BPLT wrote- "but how much clout do you think a small country like Scotland will have in Europe or the world?"

Probably exactly the same clout in the EU as, amongst others, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia & Slovakia and, not forgetting those two towers of world super power, Malta and Luxembourg. One member state, one vote.

OCDave
6th Apr 2008, 20:31
Bring back the Empire I say.

Lon More
6th Apr 2008, 23:01
No its not. It's a Professional Pilots Rumour Network (military section). Dry your eyes, wetpants


No it's not . It's in Jet Blast

wingman863
7th Apr 2008, 01:08
- Any public money over and above Scotlands own GNP should be withheld by Westminister (Barnet Formula)

- The Scottish government should be give free riegn on tax raising.


- Althenick


Amen. Then lets see what the hard-line scottish nationalists say when their fellow countryfolk, many of whom are either obese (2nd to the americans I believe), alcohol and drug-abusing, or teenage mums, say when they have bugger all healthcare to rely on. That on top of the generally crap infrastructure which would result from all the westminster cash disappearing.

I think the whole thing has more to do with anti-english feeling amongst some scots and a romantic vision of a william-wallace-esque wonderous land of haggis, than good common sense. Fair enough if your country has been invaded yesterday, you're going to want independence again, but after 300 years?! Are they mad?

er340790
7th Apr 2008, 01:16
Could we force them to take back IAN McCASKILL too?????????????

Bally Heck
7th Apr 2008, 02:15
Speaking as a Scotch Jock type person. And not having read most of the thread.

But knowing what I am passionate about! I responded to the consultation website. I wanted a "Disband the Scottish parliament totally" option in the vote. Give the Scottish public the opportunity to disband what most of the electorate didn't vote for in the first place.

Strangely.....and I don't understand why, this is not one of the options which will be considered. I have no idea why this might be.

I can't imagine self interest being the reason...surely?

TheDesertFerret
7th Apr 2008, 04:39
May I lend my fervent support to SNP and Scottish Independence with one slight aggreivance?

Can't we let the Welsh go it alone first?

Vote Plaid Cymru now!

tdf,
Yorkshire,
England

ampan
7th Apr 2008, 04:56
The admirable thing about the Welsh is that they've given up - and they should be congratuled and admired for that (although this year's Six Nations results are a little disappointing in that regard).

The Scots should also give up. To an antipodean visitor, Scotland and England are so very much part of the same country that I'm surprised that this issue is still argued.

And, to put it bluntly, so are Irish. They can sit around in bars singing IRA war songs until the cows come home, but the Irish are, essentially, British. Talk the same. Think the same. React the same. Poms, through and through.

Krystal n chips
7th Apr 2008, 06:56
As I visit Scotland on a fairly frequent basis....and have even been known to talk to the natives at times....jolly good chaps actually...:)...and even have friends who, shock, horror ! are, erm Scots...the consensus of opinion is that the SNP leader is (a) a shrewd politician ( b) a good orator and (c) knows how to milk the populist vote.....and that's it !....whilst most favour more autonomy, most do not want independence...why should they...nothing to be gained after all.....and most think he can shove his speeches up a certain orifice.

Ampan....re your last paragraph......erm, would you care to express this view in say Waterford, Dublin, Newry or Armagh......or Rathcool..just to keep a balance here ;)....and er, get somebody to video the results for youtube....with the warning "some viewers may find these images to be distressing".....go on, book yourself a wee holiday in Ireland....:ok::E

ampan
7th Apr 2008, 07:17
I'm not a brave man, even with eight pints of porter on board, and my 16 Clancy Brothers albums tucked under my white woollen jersey.

Wingswinger
7th Apr 2008, 07:48
The admirable thing about the Welsh is that they've given up - and they should be congratuled and admired for that (although this year's Six Nations results are a little disappointing in that regard).

But Wales, or to be more accurate the remnant of Ancient Britain, was never a soveriegn independant nation as Scotland was. It was just a collection of warring Celtic principalities

The Scots should also give up. To an antipodean visitor, Scotland and England are so very much part of the same country that I'm surprised that this issue is still argued.

As a Scot, I have to agree. Three centuries of Union have done their work.

And, to put it bluntly, so are Irish. They can sit around in bars singing IRA war songs until the cows come home, but the Irish are, essentially, British. Talk the same. Think the same. React the same. Poms, through and through.

Agreed there too.

I write as a Scot with Irish blood who is married to a Welsh woman and who lives in England. I guess that makes me BRITISH.

Oh wad some pow'r the giftie gie us to see oursels as others see us!

bnt
7th Apr 2008, 17:00
And, to put it bluntly, so are Irish. They can sit around in bars singing IRA war songs until the cows come home, but the Irish are, essentially, British. Talk the same. Think the same. React the same. Poms, through and through.
They only do that for the tourists, you know... just to annoy you. :\

I'm Scots, but if I was that bothered about Independence I probably wouldn't be living in Dublin, or have had 8 years in London before that. After 8 years here, I can definitely say there are major differences in the way real Irish people think, and most of them are not complimentary. (My doctor tried to direct me to a clinic, for an X-ray, by telling me which pub it's next to. I'll refrain from describing "Irish Time" in this forum.)

I say "real Irish" because I live in a suburb called Ballsbridge (Dublin 4), arguably the poshest part of the country, which is where all the embassies are. People in other parts make jokes about D4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_4) and West Britons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Briton) i.e. Irish people who don't hate Britain with an obvious passion. So I don't have a fair and balanced view of Ireland... but I can't over-estimate the anti-British hypocrisy to so much that goes on here. You're supposed to make a show of being "not like England", yet the local TV channels carry EastEnders.

My "favourites" relate to the Gaelic language, which they call "Irish" here. Official policy is costing a huge amount of money, all road signs and official documents are bilingual, and there's a shrinking area (Gaeltacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaeltacht)) on the west coast that gets special treatment... but you almost never see a Govt. minister utter more than a few token Irish words to the TV cameras. They make all the right noises... in English. They have policies about all university students having to know Irish, and foreign students are supposedly obliged to go to an office with their passport to get a waiver... but the Dean of the faculty at the university I applied to just said "Meh" (paraphrased). (If you know South Dublin, no prizes for guessing which university I'm at.)

Back on topic... there is a core Scots culture that I can still see when I go back there. I'm not talking about whisky, shortbread and tartan, the tourist stuff. I'm talking about an attitude. The lower classes in Scotland (Neddies, Rab C Nesbitt & co.) are about as much guide to Scots culture as Chavs & Essex Ladettes are to English culture or the IRA & Skangers are to Irish culture: of course you come away with a poor opinion if you focus on scum. The Scotland I (virtually) inhabit is the Scotland of Adam Smith & David Hume, James Watt and Lord Kelvin. :8

TheDesertFerret
8th Apr 2008, 00:28
Leave the irish alone.

The Irish have a far greater claim of abuse by the English than the Welsh and Scots do. Yet the Irish get on with it and don't winge and moan and blame the English for all their ills (even though they have the right in some regards).

With help from the EU Ireland is now an economic "go-ahead" place.

The English conquored Ireland with no justification other than it was there (along with the rest of the Empire) - Scotland and Wales is a little different - they picked fights with England and lost, badly.

I'm no psychologist but which is the most together self-confident nation? :

1) The one that (a) feels the need to bang on about its identity (b) tell the world how great it is and (c) blame the English for everything or...

2) The one that just gets on with it.

(I'll give you a clue - the answer is (2) and it's Emerald in colour).

ampan
8th Apr 2008, 04:14
You're probably right. How could it be that a full-on guerilla war could be completely ended in a few short years? It wasn't those at the top that stopped it, I reckon. It was more likely due to a groundswell of yawns and boredom from the masses below.

Wingswinger
8th Apr 2008, 05:48
The English conquored Ireland with no justification other than it was there (along with the rest of the Empire) - Scotland and Wales is a little different - they picked fights with England and lost, badly.


Extraordinary, TDF. I suggest you go back to your history books. Look up "Longshanks". Wales picked fights with no one simply because "Wales" never existed as an independent nation..

TheDesertFerret
8th Apr 2008, 06:32
Ah....Longshanks....nasty piece of work. Not my favourite Englishman. He did put William Wallace to a terrible death of course (though we English practised that heinous form of execution on ourselves).

Though, hang on, wasn't that the same Wallace chap who was pottering around York sacking it and murdering people?

The Scots must be so proud of themselves that they gave up Wallace to his execution.

Even the Scots greatest King, Robert Bruce, was a murderer (slotting an axe through the rightful John Comyn's head) (though he really was a great King - I'll give him that).

I concede your superior reading of historical knowledge my friend that the law abiding Scots were merely sat north of Hadrian's Wall happy as Larry amongst themselves and not regularly raiding Northumbria at all.

:ok:

PS: A quarter of my family is Scottish - they're even tighter than us!

TheDesertFerret
8th Apr 2008, 06:45
PS: Why don't they make a film about the Marquis de Montrose?

Now he was an awesome Scottish leader / warrior. He deserves elevation above Wallace in my opinion for charisma, soldiery and achievement (without all that unnecessary murderous barbarity and deceit - though he was a vain bugger).

PS: Apologies Wingswinger again for my poor grasp of British history.

bnt
8th Apr 2008, 10:58
As for the Irish just "getting on with it" better than the Scots, I must disagree for historical reasons. The whole Scottish Enlightenment of the 18th century showed that it was possible to get over the injustices of the past and look to the future, and for a while England was looking to Scotland for ideas from Hume, Smith, Burns & co.

What happened to the Irish Enlightenment? Nearly killed at birth, by the Catholic Church and lingering Reactionism. Irish philosophers like George Berkeley and John Toland (who narrowly escaped hanging) did their notable work in the UK and beyond. :hmm:

BlueWolf
8th Apr 2008, 12:59
Now all this bickering, y'see, is precisely why devolution will eventually happen.

It has nothing to do with economics or common sense, both of which firmly suggest that the UK should remain united, for the betterment of everyone involved - though that's not to say that Scotland couldn't make it on it's own, oil or no oil. Plenty of successful sovereign nations of comparable size are proof of that, Ireland being one of them, ditto Finland, New Zealand, Singapore, Denmark, Estonia, etc etc.

It has everything to do with emotions and national sentiment, and these are ultimately more powerful arguments than the aforementioned.

The mood of the world is towards devolution in this current age of man. Go with the flow. Let it happen. Alliances and unions will come again in the future, and then break up, ad infinitum. Such is Man; and we are but a blip.

GPMG
8th Apr 2008, 13:06
Were all freinds really Wolf.

Come on guys, come on Taff, Jock and Paddy sing up lads.....'God save our gracious queen, God save our noble queen..............

:):):)

radeng
8th Apr 2008, 13:52
Could an independent Scotland really afford all the international representation it would need to usefully support its industry? Look at the organisations it would need representation on to defend its economy - CEPT, ITU, ISO, CEN, CENELEC, ETSI, ICAO, IMO, UIC arethe first that come to mind. Then they need a ScotCom to look after radio comms, a Scatts for ATC, a Scottish AAIB, a Scotts equivalent to BSI, a Scottish CAA, and doubtless several others I haven't thought of. Then representation at the UN, a foreign service to provide consular representation, a national fisheries protection service - the list goes on.

BlueWolf
8th Apr 2008, 22:02
Could an independent Scotland really afford all the international representation it would need to usefully support its industry?

We manage it, with 4 million people.

ampan
9th Apr 2008, 03:53
I don't think we manage it, Blue Wolf. We're stuck down here, in the middle of nowhere, having told the yanks to get stuffed, and celebrating a free-trade deal with China.

If the Scotties really want independence, let's swap. They can have NZ, and we'll have everything north of Hadrian's Wall.

BlueWolf
9th Apr 2008, 08:20
Aha, but we already HAVE the equivalent of everything north of Hadrian's Wall right here, it includes everything south of the Waitaki. Why don't we just give them everything north of the Bombays instead - no, bu&&er it, everything north of Taupo - and they can fix the mess there, as well as providing a bulwark against the aforementioned Chinese.

And we do manage it, in most jurisdictions, even if, in many of them, we manage it by bludging off the Poms or the Swedes or the Swiss or the Canucks, or, in fact, anyone who will still put up with us.

althenick
9th Apr 2008, 08:23
Were all freinds really Wolf.

Come on guys, come on Taff, Jock and Paddy sing up lads.....'God save our gracious queen, God save our noble queen..............



Just got to the 9th verse and for the life of me I cannot remember the words ;)

throw a dyce
9th Apr 2008, 08:51
6th verse has something about Rebellious Scots to crush,God save the Queen.
That's why Flower of Scotland is used instead.Send them homeward tae think again.:cool:

radeng
9th Apr 2008, 15:05
>We manage it, with 4 million people. <

You don't have that much industry, and New Zealand isn't that particularly visible in international meetings. This means your industry has to put up with what it gets. But you're not members of the EU, (having far more sense!) which makes it so much easier for you.

corsair
9th Apr 2008, 15:16
And, to put it bluntly, so are Irish. They can sit around in bars singing IRA war songs until the cows come home, but the Irish are, essentially, British. Talk the same. Think the same. React the same. Poms, through and through.

You're dead right ampan, however with one proviso. British with a small b, british. Culturally british and very often a british mindset even though many are completely unable to recognise it in themselves. I have some fun arguments with people here on that topic. Arguably New Zealanders are british too or even Aussie like, who of course are culturally similar to the Britain for obvious reasons.

We don't like to hear it though, specially not from foreigners. That will usually invoke an outraged rant which usually contains the phrase 'eight hundred years of English oppression'. Which ignored the essential fact the original invaders were in fact French not English as was the then current King. These French had previously invaded England. So blame the French again!:ok:

BNT, completely agree with you too. There is a some hyprocritical knee jerk, anti British attitudes. These same people will then often as not rush to the pub to watch their favourite 'English' football team and run around proudly proclaimed how 'we' beat Utd or whatever as if they were part of the team.

In our defence, I will say that attitude is lessening particularly since it all became a big love-in up North. In a further defence. I would say that we Irish don't have the monopoly on hypocrisy. All countries have their own ludicrous mores and myths about themselves.

It's pretty much the same with Scotland. Even if they become independant, which I doubt they will. They will remain british (lower case b) while going around fiercely proclaiming their Scottishness.

The point is that whatever way you look at it. People like to have an identity. The Irish, Scots and Welsh have strong identities but so have the English although they are more likely to refer to themselves as British at times. Them and a certain group in NI who don't like to be considered Irish in any way. But the English are the dominant factor in these isles and it is their culture we are all part of. Essentially Britishness is Englishness with modifications.

So when English people grumble about the loss of their English identity. They are missing the essential point. The British identity is the English identity. In conquering the rest of us. The English have essentially turned us into versions of themselves. For better or worse we are all 'english' (lower case). The preferred term though is British.

The Romans provided a similar example of identity. The only real Romans came from Rome itself. The rest of the empire were Roman too but always had another identity.

Another example would be the former Soviet Union. A lot of the former countries now independent are essentially Russian in character.

So, English people, don't all uptight about the Scots/Irish/Welsh trying to reclaim their identity. It's just a normal thing when one culture dominates another.

bnt
9th Apr 2008, 16:22
A few years ago, the film King Arthur was filmed here in Ireland: I applied to be an extra on it, but I wasn't called back, and I was working anyway. (I forgot to tell them that I can ride a horse, which would have been useful.) I may try again next year, when there are plans to film a biopic of one of Ireland's historic heroes, Brian Boru.

The film will be called Freedom Within The Heart (IMDB (http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0787468/)). News of this doesn't seem to have hit the mainstream media: I can't wait to see the stuff hit the fan when they see who's signed on to play Brian Boru... :}

corsair
9th Apr 2008, 19:25
Thread drift I know but.........

The film will be called Freedom Within The Heart (IMDB). News of this doesn't seem to have hit the mainstream media: I can't wait to see the stuff hit the fan when they see who's signed on to play Brian Boru...
Today 15:16


Join www.Movieextras.ie. Tell them you can ride a horse or whatever. I have had some fun days dressed up as policemen, British soldiers, getaway drivers, prison officers even a pilot, didn't have to act for that one LOL. Occasionally I appear on TV a couple of times a week. :) I think I'm on tonight in Rock Rivals. Look I needed the money OK :hmm:

I'm sure that agency will be providing some extras for that film.
Leonardo Di Caprio is supposed to be in it. Is that right:confused:

bnt
9th Apr 2008, 20:43
Leonardo Di Caprio is supposed to be in it. Is that right:confused:

That's what IMDB says... another report (http://www.cinematical.com/2007/09/13/leonardo-dicaprio-and-vinnie-jones-team-up-for-irish-king-tale/) says that this isn't recent news, and that Vinnie Jones was being sought to play the baddie. It also points out that Boru was about 60 when he became King... blah. Almost makes Mel Gibson seem right for William Wallace - the age was about right, and Gibson is a good Scots name. :rolleyes:

renfrew
13th Apr 2008, 15:45
New opinion poll up here in today's Sunday Herald.
For Scottish independence 41% and against 40%.

Last year,before the SNP took over it was running at about 23% in favour.

Rob Courtney
13th Apr 2008, 19:26
Let the Scots go and take all the oil, after all havnt we just found mega reserves off the Falklands:E

Stupid Is My Name
20th Apr 2008, 13:27
Not only do the F***** want independence


:= - Now, now thy surly neighbour

Richard Taylor
20th Apr 2008, 19:17
Unlucky ZH875, too late - once a **** always a ****. :)

By the way, Gordo is all yours...:E

BlooMoo
20th Apr 2008, 23:15
The SNP are a one trick pony.

They're socialists but their trick is TO BLAME THE ENGLISH for their incompetence. This will run and run and in the end achieve absolutely nothing.

I don't know what is more depressing - that so many of my fellow Scots fall hook-line-and-sinker for their bullshit or that the quality-bar of political reality in the UK is now so low that the SNP in Scotland is seen by many as the least worst option.