small jet down in London

[firstchoice7e7]

Just heard that a small jet plane has crashed in South east London, hitting some houses. im awaiting more details.

[tradewind]

BBC News 24 saying Cessna down in Kent at Farnborough near Biggin Hill FFS!!

[tradewind]

I stand corrected (just multimapped it to check!):ouch:

[Practice Auto 3,2,1]

Sky News bloke to witness on phone:

"Any ideas what might have caused it to crash"

:ugh:

Hope that people on board are ok, but unfortunately doesn't look good from the pictures :(

[chasb441]

sky news reporting cessna citation.has hit at least one house

[operationsair]

this is confirmed. a.c dept egkb inroute to fab. crashed inbetween.

[Pace]

I have flown a Biggin based citation 2 out of Biggin and heard today of a tragic crash with a Citation.

As its close to home anyone have any details?

pace

[west lakes]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311171,00.html

[Snifferdog]

...nice to see this thread was moved from NEWS to the obviously more relevant BIZ JETS!!!.......:confused:

[Bravo-Papa]

Heard this 30mins ago by luck my father heard the incident was listening to scanner (live 10 mins fom biggin and farnborough. At the time India99 put a 2 mile exclusion around biggin (missed the mayday ha was on thames) but india99 said that it had ident 2 landing sites for inbond military heli's (3 at that time) so I have been very confused for the last 30 mins, glad pprune could shed some light...tragic for all involved thoughts with them but the military involvement from India99 still interesting?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

...nice to see this thread was moved from NEWS to the obviously more relevant BIZ JETS!!!.......:confused:


Agreed.

Come on Mod's - get a grip! This is news, albeit sad news. Move the story back to where it belongs.

[Captb747]

nice to see this thread was moved from NEWS to the obviously more relevant BIZ JETS!!!.......

Fair enough but lets keep it on track...........ver very sad:sad:

[Snapshot]

51'21'52.45N
0'04'01.94E
Google Earth

RIP

[elcAbron07]

If it was VP-BGE, took off EGKB 13:32z on its way to LFBP (Pau, France). Judging by the pictures, does not look good at all.

[Bravo-Papa]

Have chinook in the area now any thoughts? just went over me (sevenoaks) north towards Biggin?

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Well if it was VP-BGE, why would it be back in the vicinity of Biggin around the time it was supposed to be landing in France? Also, the flight plan on CFMU has an Actual time of arrival for the flight of 1554Z (i.e.landed) so maybe this was a different aircraft... ?

[CJ1234]

The usual conjecture and rubbish reported on the news - anyone at Biggin know anything about it?

[poss]

Not good to be jumping to conclusions about what aircraft it is at the minute. Very sad incident :(.

[LeakyLucy]

judging by the mess, it probably was a Citation ! Ouch !:(

[Zyox]

Sky News reporting Cessna Citation 501 with pictures of the scene from a chopper.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311171,00.html

Really nasty stuff :(

[Capot]

Is there another Farnborough where it's shown on the BBC's map (ie NE of Biggin Hill) or have the BBC simply moved it because they feel that since it's aviation Farnborough needs to be close by?

[on21]

Thread already running

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4013213#post4013213

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Capot... Farnborough KENT is precisely where it is shown - to the NE of Biggin Hill...

[LD Max]

The BBC heli has just departed (15:50Z) to go and have a look, so hopefully we'll get some airborne visuals on the tail No soon.

[AES]

There are 2 Farnboroughs in S UK - 1 in Kent, near the Bromley/Biggin Hill area, the other in Hampshire, where the Air Show is held. It appears that the media did get this one right!

[Saintsman]

Just heard an eye witness on the news - "It was banking in a stall position"....

[elcAbron07]

I agree with poss, not right to jump to conclusions on tail no whilst details are still sketchy. If any friends or family of crew or pax of VPBGE were to read these initial posts, would not be nice for them reading that the aircraft had gone down when in fact it was somewhere over France perfectly intact.

However, like any air crash, awful to see. Looking at where it crashed (in romsley close, farnborough), if it was taking off, did not get far at all out of 21.

[sikeano]

Lady Eye witness on the Phone to BBC ,
'Sometimes i hear the planes coming to land and they cut the engine off , And they start it again, You can hear the engine going put..put..put - and the flight path is on the way to school - we can't have flight paths over schools '


My thoughts with the Family of the people onboard

[muppitt]

Very sad for all involved.

When will both the Beeb and Sky News realise that Chris "Erm.erm" Yates knows naff all and bluffs his way through every interview for which he is hired as an industry expert.

[NABLAG]

Cannot believe that someone would be stupid enough to put a reg.up so soon. A little bit of thought towards the next of kin please.

[dontpressthat]

Tragic news for all involved..

A real shame that the best the fools on sky/beeb can do is ask how many children were playing nearby and how many houses there are in the street etc.. jeeeesus it makes me so mad.

People have lost their lives!!

RIP

DPT

[peterperfect]

NABLAG
I agree with the lack of sensitivity, however it doesnt stop there, maybe Sky News should not have broadcasted a "local resident who lives 3 mins from the crash site" they interviewed about 45 mins ago who....wait for it..... "clearly saw the terror on the faces of the passengers at the aircraft windows".

[EGCC Rwy 24]

The neighbour that, perhaps inadvertantly, mentioned the first name of the lady living in the badly damaged house. The reporter then, rather sneakily said "can you just remind me of their names" - and the lady then gave out first names, surname, the fact that the lady comes back from holiday today and the man tomorrow.......

I hope no identity theft practitioners are listening.

[maxdrypower]

One witness has just stated he "thought at first it may have been a flying bomb"???????

[Callsign Viper]

I don't agree with the likes of the busy bodies getting involved and making stories that could be disrespectful to next of kins ...

However ... I doubt they will be reading PPRuNe at this terrible stage of their lives - Reg and other info does give us all an immediate knowledge of many of our fellow colleagues and friends that fly from BQH aswell. I see no reason why this forum shouldn't be used for 'useful' information providing its accurate !

RIP, a very sad day for corporate aviation !

Thoughts to family and friends.

CV :(

[haamdhanimaid]

Bloody Sky News - it's the News of the World on TV, makes me so angry.

My thoughts go out to all onboard and their families.

[south coast]

If it makes you so angry, dont watch it.

Wait until the facts come out, of course the likes of Sky news will try to sensationalise news to keep people watching.

[peter we]

I think the news people are interested in the possibility of innocent bystanders being killed. It seems obvious the passengers and crew are dead but they can't say that without confirmation.

[silverelise]

Sky showing "old pictures of Cessna Citation VP-BGE - the aircraft involved in todays incident" :sad:

[ggpmw]

17.05z - It seems that either Sky News reads what is written on PPrune, or they know something we don't.... they've just shown a Photo of VP-BGE saying that this IS the a/c....!?!?

Also, looking at the Metar History, winds are 200-250 mostly all day, presume Biggin were using rwy21 at the time? If so, yet MORE rubbish aired on TV!

[captbod]

Some numpty just been babbling on Sky News about pooleys flight guide showing the VFR Departure routes :ugh: requiring a turn at between 1 - 1.5 miles from the Airport, and what therefore was the Aircraft doing at least 2 miles away!!!!!!!... Makes ya wanna weep.:{

[Awyrennwr]

Well if it was VP-BGE, why would it be back in the vicinity of Biggin around the time it was supposed to be landing in France? Also, the flight plan on CFMU has an Actual time of arrival for the flight of 1554Z (i.e.landed) so maybe this was a different aircraft... ?

Posted at 1630 Local or 1530z so obviously not the actual arrival time.

Due to arrive in Pau at 1554, crash was at 1330z.

[lexxity]

I hope someone at sky gets a rollocking for getting a gossipy neighbour to give out the full names of the owners of the house which is pretty much gutted by fire. I know they are on holiday, but in this day and age of international news there is every chance the owners will find out this way.

One more thing, they are getting lots of people to say how bad it is that they live under a flight path. May I therefore suggest they move? I live under the flightpath for MAN and here the same nonsense up here. This is a truely awful accident and not helped along by foolish reporters looking for scandal.

RIP to all involved.

[Right Way Up]

Lexxity,
Have to agree with you on that point. Not nice to have your house totalled & thank god they were away, but... Biggin was there a lot longer than those houses! Why do we have to cram houses in those places where houses should not be built?

[twinjetter]

The dichotomy that people face when considering posting the apparent reg of the aircraft involved should be subject to caution before we all throw stones.

As the Ops Manager of a large fleet of various Citation marques (including other a/c inbound BQH today); both I and my Ops team were desperate to seek confirmation that it was not one of "our" aircraft. Thank God, all our birds are accounted for.

The above may appear to be a callous comment, but I don't think for a minute that my guys were the only Bizjet Ops dep't trying to get immediate contact with any of our airborne aircraft that could conceivably be the one involved.

That said however, PPRuNe is not the way to find out the news that so sadly one Operator has received today.

Information or sensationalism? If the former, then with sadness I believe it to be appropriate; the latter, then not.

Sympathy to allcon from EBJ Ops

[EladElap]

Sky news just broadcast a picture of the aerie involved. Reg. was VH-... couldn't see the last part of the reg. Out of interest what country uses VH? Condolences to the crew and pax. :(

[Sallyann1234]

One more thing, they are getting lots of people to say how bad it is that they live under a flight path.
The houses in the news pictures look very new and have certainly been built and bought while Biggin has been in operation. They only have themselves to blame for moving there.

[LGW Vulture]

According to BBC, Andrew Walters of Biggin Hill A/P said the flight was a commercial flight. In which case highly unlikely to be VP-B registered or C for that matter!

[Super VC-10]

BBC News website has named the owners now. :mad:

[Hydroman400]

Reports say that the crew reported strong engine vibration......could be an uncontained engine rotor failure? I know protecting systems from UERF especially FCs can be a knightmare with rear mounted engines.

[fusian]

Thoughts are with the families of all involved. I think I'll wait for the investigation to complete before making my judgments. It looks pretty much a big mess; I can only guess at the cause.

Various news channels reporting on it at the moment and pretty much all garbage aside from the blatant obvious facts.

To be perfectly honest it wouldn't suprise me if those particular news agencies read and utilised whats on here, I doubt most reporters who need t get a story together quickly will understand the finer points of general aviation and need some more developed opinions...

[Richard J.]

The houses in the news pictures look very new and have certainly been built and bought while Biggin has been in operation.

I just looked up my OS map of East London to see how far off the extended runway line the houses were, and the road isn't on the map. Admittedly it's a 1976 map, but the aerodrome certainly predates the road. (I lived near there in the 1940s/50s and remember the Meteors roaring overhead.)

It's roughly 3.5km from the threshold of runway 21 and about 500m off the glide path, by my reckoning.

[lc_aerobatics]

Some teenager was just telling BBC reporter that aircraft was so low it knocked over her mate with a wing and then pilots waved at her to move out of the way :eek::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Can't belive those idiots......

[operationsair]

biggin was there a long time before those people living in those houses were

[ground_star]

Also go to love the interviewee (who shall henceforth be known as 'chav') who just claimed that the aircraft was going at about 20mph...surely a Citation would only be doing that speed on the deck...not prior to the crash...!

Ah well...never mind...it *is* Sky!

[Monty77]

Uncontrolled rotor disc failure is not uncommon, particularly the on the UERF system skid protecting EU agenda, which should never have been brought in anyway.

Hydroman400 aside, should FCS have been applicable any way?

Mwell?

[operationsair]

am told the operator is Ross Air.

[CaptainProp]

Rossair? As in South African Rossair?

[Shunter]

TOTALLY inappropriate.Not as inappropriate as the BBC broadcasting such verbal diarrhea from attention-seeking, pikey chavs and general fantasists. Yes it's a very nasty incident, and it's very sad that people have apparently lost their lives, but an outpouring of detached, insincere grief from those who have no personal connection to those involved either directly or indirectly is also rather nauseating.

[fusian]

Agreed... As per my last post, perhaps they should go get some qualified opinions first.

[QWERTY9]

Fusian : You K**B !!

LGW Vulture : Planty of VP-B** and VP-C** aircraft operate commercial flights for that matter !!

FACT : Aircraft was Citation 501 VP-BGE, built 1975.

Owner Or OPR : Ross Air, Hamilton, Bermuda since 07/06/02

Was a regular visitor to BOH where maintenance was routinely carried out by the Cessna Citation Service Centre, not that I'm inferring they were in any way, shape or form responsible for this tragic accident.

Some of the crap posted above is as bad as the 'Chav' reports I've heard on Sky/BBC

[MikeStanton]

do we know if the A/C had departed 21 or 03?? i.e. did they manage to fly down wind before the tragidy... Gosh I fly from Biggin in a cessna (152) :eek:

[Duck Rogers]

This thread will not be allowed to go down the route seen in the case of the 777/Heathrow incident. Inappropriate posts will lead to a ban.

Duck
Moderator

[babyprice]

Well, first of all, my sympathies to the families of those killed in this tragic accident. But I have to say it really saddens me that the news coverage has focussed almost exclusively on the residents, with only a passing acknowledgement of the fatalities on board the aircraft. The BBC even managed to dig up some local resident who got her couple of minutes of fame complaining about the 'accident waiting to happen' and the 3 schools and hospital that are at risk from errant aircraft. If this was an RTC, I can't help thinking the coverage would be so much less biased. Rant over

[PoloJamie]

I have to agree with BabyPrice - all the media coverage seems to be interested in in the local area and the cause of the accident. For goodness sakes, a family, two families, possibly more have lost relations in this tragic accident. Trust the media to be more speculative than actually respect the fact that there have been people lost in this accident. RIP.

The next thing the media will be doing will be like the LHR 777 incident in January, copying posts from the PPRuNe - "pilots on a well known internet forum have said....". Pathetic stuff.

In regards to this thread and the other thread, wouldn't be more suitable to close one thread and point all discussion towards the other? Or merge the two?

...And VH- is Australia, but what country uses the VP- designation (as VP-BGE has been noted in the other thread?)

Jamie.

[chanter]

VP registration relates to british colonies, VP-B being Bermuda

[2close]

No opinions, conjecture or comment just sincere, heartfelt condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of the deceased and hopes for a speedy resolution to any other persons affected by this terrible tragedy.

Remember, guys, there are a lot of people both directly and indirectly affected by events such as this.

I will be sparing a thought not only for the deceased and their families but also for everyone who has to deal with the consequences; friends and co-workers, the emergency services, investigators, witnesses and the homeowners. A lot of people will be very distressed and suffering over the next few days, weeks and beyond.

RIP

2close

[PPRuNe Radar]

Also, the flight plan on CFMU has an Actual time of arrival for the flight of 1554Z (i.e.landed) so maybe this was a different aircraft... ?

Perhaps people quoting data from the non public access parts of the CFMU should actually find out how the system works in regards to 'actual' flight data ?

[foxmoth]

Yeah perhaps a little inappropriate but at least it lightens the mood slightly.

There are serious threads on which lightening the mood is appropriate (such as a tech thread with a complex issue), personally I do not feel this is one.

As For
Not as inappropriate as the BBC broadcasting such verbal diarrhea from attention-seeking, pikey chavs and general fantasists. Yes it's a very nasty incident, and it's very sad that people have apparently lost their lives, but an outpouring of detached, insincere grief from those who have no personal connection to those involved either directly or indirectly is also rather nauseating.

Maybe not as inappropriate, but it is a lot harder to change what the BBC does, I feel at least on here we should try to keep this sort of thing to a minimum!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

QUOTE
Well, first of all, my sympathies to the families of those killed in this tragic accident. But I have to say it really saddens me that the news coverage has focussed almost exclusively on the residents, with only a passing acknowledgement of the fatalities on board the aircraft. The BBC even managed to dig up some local resident who got her couple of minutes of fame complaining about the 'accident waiting to happen' and the 3 schools and hospital that are at risk from errant aircraft. If this was an RTC, I can't help thinking the coverage would be so much less biased. Rant over

REPLY BYALPHAINDIA

Unbelievable - 'Accident waiting to happen' how could the resident presume this???:ugh::rolleyes:

Farnborough is no different from anywhere else, I bet there were other fatalities in Farnborough today in car crashes??? So how can the Schools & Hospital be at more risk from the said 'errant' Aircraft than anything else???

The next thing we will hear, Will be that the BBC has paid for the residents to go away to get over the crash, It's the old story when it comes to the British media - Anything for a story.:ugh::*

My condolences to the family & friends of the victims.

[Sir Bojangles]

One of the experts on BBC News 24 was the highly regarded ex-CAA Airworthiness chap, Derek Blackall, now an 'Aviation Consultant', as they put it.

[richatom]

built in a once isolated area that should be brought to account for the sad unneccessary fatalities of experienced pilots whom had they not needed to avoid the obstacles and clipped the buildings on their low emergency approach may possibly have landed safely before the treshold.


Look up Broadwater Gardens on Google Earth - you will see that it is a couple of miles from the threshold of 21. You can't blame planners for allowing buildings at that distance. There are many urban airports with houses far closer to the threshold than that - Heathrow for example.

And while I am here can I add my vote for a merging of the two parallel threads on this incident?

[Buster the Bear]

Having been involved with aviation for many a good year and the rarity in the UK of such an event (Biz Jet fatal accident), I find today most galling!

For the daft like me, what effects can an uncontained engine/engine component failure have in regard to the surrounding airframe and controls on the flyability of a 33 year old twin engined executive jet?

Are the more modern rear engined exec jets any different?

I only ask as to improve my understanding of such an incident within the context of what I currently do.

[Super VC-10]

Biggin Hill is not a WII airfield, it is a WWI airfield! Been there a heck of a lot longer than most of the houses in the surrounding area.

[Bye]

Airliners.net is quoting this forum with the identity of the aircraft.

GB

[derekvader]

Google Maps link to the house concerned (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Romsey+Close,+Orpington,+Greater+London+BR6,+United+Kingdo m&sll=51.344339,-0.324783&sspn=0.090928,0.17355&ie=UTF8&cd=3&geocode=0,51.364364,0.067358&ll=51.364562,0.067195&spn=0.00071,0.001356&t=h&z=20) - it's clearly identifiable from the BBC and Sky photos as the one between the blue car and the round blue swimming pool.

Very bad luck for the pilot who presumably was aiming for the nearby Derrick Wood and surrounding greenery and very nearly made it. Very bad luck for the homeowners too but at least they are alive.

Sympathies for all involved.

[READY MESSAGE]

Very sad news.

I am fuming at the inaccuracies in the reports of aviation matters recently. The coverage of the BA777 incident, the 'man on runway' incident and now this. Sky news should be ashamed of their coverage. BBC slightly better.

The 'experts/consultants' have been awful and as for the eye witness reports.... :ugh: :mad:

The whole thing is awful.

I'm still trying to account for some mates who are also in the Citation fraternity.

RIP

[Mariner9]

The vast majority of those watching TV news will never fly or be flown in a bizjet. Therefore, they are far more concerned about perceived dangers from aircraft causing ground fatalities, however irrational that may be.

Human nature I'm afraid. You really shouldn't be surprised when the media target their news at 99.9% of their audience. Viewing figures are enhanced by running sensationalist uninformed "eye witness" stories, factual reporting is seldom practised these days.

[SPIT]

First of all my condolences to all the families who lost someone.
As for all the people who complain about the sound and the larger aircraft, on the TV and in the press I wonder HOW MANY of them were only too pleased to get on a large jet and go on their hol's??? I bet they don't complain about the sound/noise then:mad::mad::mad: :{:{

[Mercenary Pilot]

It's now common knowledge that one of the Pax was racing driver and former BTCC hero David Leslie. Very sad news especially for those of us who followed the glory years of the BTCC.

My condolences to all friends, family and colleagues to all those who lost their lives today.

http://faimg1.forum-auto.com/mesimages/263658/btcc98_2.jpg

1953 - 2008

[cargosales]

RIP to all who lost their lives today.

And a big 'thumbs down' to those local residents coming out with dumb 'accident waiting to happen' type comments. Biggin has been an airfield for many a year, and has a proud place in history. It is a sad fact that occasionally aircraft come down, some with loss of life, but thankfully much more rarely these days than ever before.

I remember only too well being at OASC on the day that the Invader went down. As a group we stopped, thought, considered and more .. but still signed on the dotted line.

If the local council approved planning for new homes on the flight path then these unfeeling idiots should take their grievances to the council, rather than blaming it on the airport or its users :*

[Gar]

The reporter on ITV News has just commented that locals could see the look of horror on the passengers' faces. Come on, that's just pathetic sensationalist journalism. Disgraceful

RIP to all involved

[Pittspilot]

Are the more modern rear engined exec jets any different?
-------------------------------------------------------
Modern design like the Lear 40/45 and quite a few have 2 sets of control wires going through top and bottom of the fuselage to provide for a severe case of obstruction. If it helps in the special case needs to be experienced.

But if there is a fund to step in to support the families left behind please state a point of contact.

Mit Hals- und Beinbruch

Pittspilot

[infrequentflyer789]

should be brought to account for the sad unneccessary fatalities of experienced pilots whom had they not needed to avoid the obstacles and clipped the buildings on their low emergency approach may possibly have landed safely before the treshold. Such a tragic waste of life

I don't disagree in some ways, but not sure it would have made a difference here. BBC had a long interview with a pilot who was in the vicinity and reported it "drop out of the sky" shortly after the mayday call.

To me, with description like that from a pilot, and with a full fuel load, the result is always likely to be fatal - whether you hit houses or fields.

RIP.

[Creaser]

Although I agree with many posts about the poor quality of reporting and dubious choice of witness statements, I was slightly heartened when early reports seemed to emphasise that it was a small plane, rather than sensationalise it by calling it a "passenger jet".

Sky were calling it a Cessna which conjures up a very small craft in the mind of Joe public.

A sad day.

Creaser

[Long Box Jock]

Retired resident - "I've been watching the planes for years, you can set your clock by them" :ugh: There are no scheduled flights from Biggin! So no you can't!

So called aviation expert - "This aircraft is over 30 years old, it's to be assumed that this has something to do with it" :confused:

Residents association rep - "As the years have gone on, the planes have got lower and lower" :confused::ugh:

I suppose they think that it's bound to happen when the normal approach path begins to drop below the level of the houses!

It makes me mad enough that 99.9% of people are plain stupid, not to mention that a proportion of these people are experts (!?) or hold a certain authoritative / influential position in a community, and then there are the prats that host this bulls**t and broadcast it all over the world.

My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those perished in this tragedy.

[Bruno Pires]

I've just arrived home and my mother told an aircraft has crashed, I've seen it was a Citation, any ideas of what happened? I've seen on the CFMU ATD at 13:35Z and at 13:36Z already crashed.
My condolonces to the families of both the pilots and pax.:(

[ILoadMyself]

From The Scotsman http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Five-killed-as-private-jet.3929009.jp

the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/03/31/sotrib131.xml

and Autosport http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66246

[Cardinalsteve]

If the aircraft was VP registered I would like to know who's AOC he was operating under. Bermuda CAA can not issue an AOC to an operator outside of Bermuda. A Bermuda registered aircraft can operate on another states issued AOC under some circumstances.

[fernytickles]

CardinalSteve

If you would really like to know, why not contact the registered owner directly? I'm sure they'd be willing to share that info with you right now...:ugh:

Have followed this today, from afar. Very sad news for all involved.

[luoto]

Just before 5am UK time today LBC Radio(1) in London had the presenter talking about the crash and he was very supportive of the late pilot and his efforts to avoid the school etc. The presenter claimed to be a former pilot (PPL?) and spoke about the training for the right place to land if the only option is to crash somewhere.

Anyway just a FYI. The news of the incident made its way to Finland and was on the main news sites quite quickly too.

(1) Just in case anyone ask's I listen to the very early morning talk station here.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Cardinalsteve.. I think your posting is somewhat irrelevant. However, be very assured that large numbers VP-B registered aircraft, both airliners and exec jets operate in and out of UK airfields daily.

[Southernboy]

Once again we see emotional postings asking legitimate posters to shut up out of respect etc.

Surely it goes without saying that everyone is saddened at any tragedy & equally obviously those who know the victims will feel especially upset, but most of those who log on here do so to find out what has happened or at least what is known & to learn from whatever info is available.

One way of avoiding this conflict would be to have either an RIP or condolences thread for those who wish to post such feelings there thus separating, "upsetting" posts from those likely to be upset.


Ask and ye shall receive.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4017332#post4017332


Duck

[Flap 5]

Would this aircraft have an FDR and / or CVR onboard? If it were a private aircraft then there would probably be no requirement. However if it were a commercial charter then I would have thought there would have been some requirement dependent on the country of registration.

The AAIB can get a lot of information from the engines and aircraft at the crash site but it would ony tell them the situation of the engines and aircraft at the point of impact. An FDR and CVR would give much more information of what happened leading up to the accident.

The aircraft suffered severe engine vibration. Normally if this were on one engine only there would be no problem to shut it down and continue for a single engine approach and landing. However the BMI 737 accident at Kegworth showed that engine vibrations aren't that simple to diagnose (as to which engine was at fault). The pilot would have had little time after takeoff to diagnose the fault and may well have had insufficient thinking time to analyse his problem.

[RiSq]

I too have followed this since hearing early afternoon yesterday.

Just out of interest, there was a Citiation circling Brands hatch yesterday for about 15 minutes. It was touring cars, and with it being a motorsport related event the probability is the it may have been the same aircraft.

Can anyone confirm if this is the same aircraft (Flight plans) as my knowledge of this isn't too great.

I'm just interested to know, as the aircraft didn't sound quite right to the ear (Lived under a flightpath all my life)

I may be jumping the gun here, but it seems a bit of a coincidence.

Thanks guys.

[chevvron]

Risq: The ALKIN hold for Biggin and City is just north of Brands so it could have been any one of a number of flights.

[richatom]

Now lets all stop speculating and wait for the AAIB to do their work.

Why? Clearly the investigating authorities (such as AAIB) should not be speculating publicly at this stage of the investigation.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with folk on here speculating as to what may have happened. Indeed, such speculation could even be helpful. Look at the LHR 777 thread for example - there were many pilots, engineers, scientists with detailed knowledge of the airframe and fuel composition contributing useful speculative knowledge as to what may have happened. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the investigating authorities didn't also have a look at that thread!

[newcomer]

brushing through the scottish papers today, so a lovely picture of a nice shinny new Cessna Citation Excel, talking about yesterdays incident. I guess a Cessna is a Cessna according to some people.

[LTNman]

Quote from a London Rag

Horrified residents who saw a private jet plough into their street have revealed they saw the passengers panicking inside moments before it plunged to the ground.

One father who had to pluck his daughters to safety from outside his home described looking directly into the eyes of the pilot and a woman.:mad:

Yeh I think not

[Flap 5]

Right. My question is getting lost. Can anyone who knows about this aircraft type answer it? As follows:

Would this aircraft have an FDR and / or CVR onboard? If it were a private aircraft then there would probably be no requirement. However if it were a commercial charter then I would have thought there would have been some requirement dependent on the country of registration.

The AAIB can get a lot of information from the engines and aircraft at the crash site but it would ony tell them the situation of the engines and aircraft at the point of impact. An FDR and CVR would give much more information of what happened leading up to the accident.

The aircraft suffered severe engine vibration. Normally if this were on one engine only there would be no problem to shut it down and continue for a single engine approach and landing. However the BMI 737 accident at Kegworth showed that engine vibrations aren't that simple to diagnose (as to which engine was at fault). The pilot would have had little time after takeoff to diagnose the fault and may well have had insufficient thinking time to analyse his problem.

[Avioactive]

Only based on the assumption that this was VP-BGE, a 1975 Citation 500 (S/No. 500-0287), then the aircraft may have had a CVR but as a private aircraft of that age/weight, did not need to have one installed. It had TAWS (EGPWS) back in 2006, but no FDR (again not obligatory). A low time machine only on about 190-200 hrs a year over its 33 years life and a similar number of landings/cycles per annum - so more or less averaged hour long flights.

[Sheikh Zabik]

Very sad and RIP those poor souls.

Pure speculation but I am current on type. One of the biggest gotchas on this aircraft are the two forward baggage flaps.

If one is not properly latched and opens, the other blows open too sending contents through both engines. It happened last year in the States with fatal consequences.

I have absolutely no clue if this happened here, but a timely reminder of the importance of the "Golden Lap" after everyone is on board to check security of forward latches...and indeed everything else.

[richatom]

The aircraft suffered severe engine vibration. Normally if this were on one engine only there would be no problem to shut it down and continue for a single engine approach and landing. However the BMI 737 accident at Kegworth showed that engine vibrations aren't that simple to diagnose (as to which engine was at fault). The pilot would have had little time after takeoff to diagnose the fault and may well have had insufficient thinking time to analyse his problem.

My thoughts too. If they had severe vibration in both engines, this would suggest heavy bird strike on both engines, or else identical incorrect maintenance intervention on both engines, or an uncontained failure on one engine damaging the other. Non of the scenarios are particularly likely.

However, in the event of a single-engine failure, with both engines near the centreline, and with severe vibration in the cockpit, and already in close proximity to the ground, I can imagine that making a diagnosis of what was happening may have been very difficult for the crew.

[withins]

just putiing my two penneth in like everyone else:-

Not wishing to prejudge the fine work of the AAIB, but I would be surprised if the the possibility of a birdstrike isn't being considered, nobody else on this thread seems to have mentioned this yet. Does Biggin have a bird problem?

RIP

[Flap 5]

blablablafly,

I agree with you and is why I had to repost my question because it was in danger of getting swamped by other posts. Thanks for the replies to it. I am sure the AAIB will come up with useful information for current Citation pilots but pprune can help by answers to my question of the type posted by Avioactive and the Sheikh.

Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. An FDR would be especially useful in the case of this accident to determine the exact chronological order of the causes and effects of the engine vibration, rather than just the evidence available at the scene of the accident.

[Southernboy]

Indeed. The appalling crash at Milan Linate a few years ago which involved a Citation left the investigators with a major problem. They knew what the pilots did but not why, which is often as important.

[BoeingMEL]

Flap 5...why only public-transport? Surely the lives of those on private-category flights are worth as much.... Also, if we are to continue learning from such accidents, we should be learning from ALL of them.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers, bm :ok:

[No comment]

RISq: As far as I remember, the aircraft "circling" Brands Hatch was actually a Gulfstream of some sort.

[PoloJamie]

Not sure if this has already been said and I've missed it, but the name of the one of the pilots has now been released on Sky News.

Edit: All five people onboard have now been named. RIP

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311188,00.htm (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311188,00.html)

[Cater]

I think this applies to most airports lets be fair most where built long before the houses, when will they ever learn

[scooter boy]

BBC 24 news anchor to (alleged) industry expert:" Can you tell us exactly what the rules are that relate to building houses near airports"

Expert on BBC:" Erm yes well there are clear rules that set this out and erm strictly govern how close one can build to an airport"

I hope the BBC didn't pay him because his opinion was pretty worthless.

RIP to the five lost, it could have been so much worse.

SB

[BoeingMEL]

Just announced that Citation carried five MALES... 2 MALE pilots and three MALE pax. So much for the eye-witness who "saw" the "female" passenger. "I'll never forget her face" he said. Right. :ugh: bm

[Super VC-10]

NTSB are reporting the aircraft is Bahamas registered http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2008/080330.html, but speculation is on a Bermudan aircraft involved. Which is correct?

[blablablafly]

Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. They can only do that for G reg tails..... and that is the problem with a/c that are flagged out to N or VP reg...

[Super VC-10]

BBC are saying that no black boxs were carried. All on board have been named now. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7321997.stm

[Carbon Bootprint]

NTSB are reporting the aircraft is Bahamas registered http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2008/080330.html (http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2008/080330.html), but speculation is on a Bermudan aircraft involved. Which is correct?
If the reports of the reg prefix being VP-B are correct, it indicates registry in Bermuda. Bahamas' reg prefix is C6.

Someone mentioned the Citation crash in Oklahoma City (KPWA) earlier this month. The indications are pretty strong that was a birdstrike right after takeoff. That aeroplane had a CVR but it wasn't operating. Preliminary report here. (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080311X00297&key=1)

[JB007]

VP-BGE
Bermudan registered....

[DRPAM007]

Really sad to have another unfortunate event again in the UK airspace. This time, those on board were not so lucky.


Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?

How effiecient was the emergency response?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?

How effiecient was the emergency response?

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


Bromley police Chief Superintendent Charles Griggs said: "The site itself is relatively dangerous.

[Blues&twos]

Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?

How effiecient was the emergency response?

I would guess the first three hours were spent containing the blaze and making the area safe.........:mad:

[Nige321]

Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?

How effiecient was the emergency response?

One of the fire officers on the news yesterday mentioned gas cylinders were involved...

N

[cats_five]

<snip>
Look at the LHR 777 thread for example - there were many pilots, engineers, scientists with detailed knowledge of the airframe and fuel composition contributing useful speculative knowledge
<snip>

Useful to who? I'm sure the AAIB have a coach-load of engineers, scientists and pilots with detailed knowedge etc. available, including people from BA, Boeing and Rolls Royce.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

I cant speak for what the LFB do these days, but when I was a fireman in London 10 years ago, an aircraft accident off airfield would attract a standard attendance of at least 4-6 pumping appliances, hoselayers, rescue tenders, etc etc, not counting all the various specialist vehicles such as control unit, photographer and senior officers.



How effiecient was the emergency response?

Ask the Emergency services......

[His dudeness]

Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. An FDR would be especially useful in the case of this accident to determine the exact chronological order of the causes and effects of the engine vibration, rather than just the evidence available at the scene of the accident.

Do you have an idea what effort putting a FDR or DFDR (which gets way more information) on a 33 year old, most probably fully anaolg airplane would be? You´d probably rather get a newer airplane instead of wasting money. Or don´t own one at all. A simplified FDR would not really make that much sense, if got say, just HDG/ASPD/ALT, what would that reveal in a case like this?

I´d think that the AAIB has a lot of pointers already (eng vibs)...

[mickjoebill]

Given the lack of facts and despite the poor reporting of the details of the accident it is heartening that both public and media describe the actions of the pilot as heroic, in some cases with banner headlines.



Mickjoebill

[leedsgirl]

Just for info VP-BGE C500 arrived at southend on the 25/3 for maintenance at Avionicare Departed 29/3 back to Biggin!

Leedsgirl :hmm:

[con-pilot]

Someone mentioned the Citation crash in Oklahoma City (KPWA) earlier this month. The indications are pretty strong that was a birdstrike right after takeoff. That aeroplane had a CVR but it wasn't operating.

That would have been me.

The similarities I was alluding to was the facts that both happened shortly after takeoff, some type of engine problems and a resulting loss of control of the aircraft, ending with a nearly vertical impact accident.

Jet aircraft, even 30+ year old ones do not just fall out of the sky, bird strikes or not.

One difference between the two accidents is that with the London accident there was time for the crew to call a Mayday. There was no such call from the Oklahoma City accident crew.

[PoloJamie]

I really wish the media would get the priorities straight (well I guess they have from the point of view of selling a headline.) The latest babble from the Sky News website:
"If the plane that crashed into a house in Kent had hit just one hour earlier, three more lives could have been taken."

All fair enough and all that, but that kind of thing really doesn't need to be posted as a "story".

It's stated that the passengers were flying to France for a track session.

[HeathrowAirport]

I cant speak for what the LFB do these days, but when I was a fireman in London 10 years ago, an aircraft accident off airfield would attract a standard attendance of at least 4-6 pumping appliances, hoselayers, rescue tenders, etc etc, not counting all the various specialist vehicles such as control unit, photographer and senior officers.



Quote:
How effiecient was the emergency response?
Ask the Emergency services......

They must have been told light aircraft has crashed and maybe never thought it was a jet. To my knowledge a Citation uses A1 Jet Fuel and not LPG. Considering it's surrounding's it could have been much worse.

R.I.P all whom died, deepest regards to your family.

This is the second time i have had a plane crash so close to my house, Heathrow and then Biggin.:ooh:

[infrequentflyer789]

Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?

How effiecient was the emergency response?

Not sure, but there is amature video of it around on the web, eg. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0ce_1206907650

This appears to show police on scene (evacuating ?) first and then what looks like an airport fire engine turning up. This looks to be the first fire appliance tackling the blaze. Ambulance looks to have arrived at the same time.

Assuming that was the biggin hill fire engine, it looks like they got there first, and the road route from the airport doesn't look straight/quick - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=romsey+close,+farnborough,+kent&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl - and google maps reckons it's 5-6miles by road.

Without knowing where the nearest fire station is it's difficult to compare, and they might have deliberately let the airport appliance get there first (would have better capabilities in this situation than a standard red one).

I suspect that the 8 fire engines and 40 firemen were on scene for 3 hours damping down and making safe.

[west lakes]

not a firefighter, so stand to be corrected, but I have had to attend a number of fires and done some training for them

Their prime responsibility is the preservation of life nowadays so if they, after assessing, the incident feel there is no life at risk (some may think that harsh) they will withdraw for their own safety.

In the TV interviews last night the fire officer acknowledged that the airport equipment had dealt with the "fuel" fire, if you look on the aerial photos on Sky you can see the white of the foam. Most county brigades only carry a very limited amount of foam on their appliances.

Bear in mind that had they been spraying high pressure hoses on the wreckage the damage to any evidence could also have been crucial. Similarly the remains of the house, high pressure could have brought the walls down, possibly on a crucial bit of evidence

The helicopter views also showed a hose on a fixed monitor directed into the wrecked garage where the LPG cylinder probably was (these can take a few hours to cool)

[Gainesy]

I thought that the LPG bottles to which the fireman was referring were in a caravan or garage involved in the post-crash fire.

[Duck Rogers]

Thanks to those of you who have posted on topic. Threads voicing idle speculation, unrelated details or offensive material so far have been deleted. Thus far these tally more than just a few.

Duck

Moderator

[brabazon]

BBC have profiles of the crash victims here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7322983.stm

Suggest any amendments or additions are sent to BBC.

[eyeinthesky]

I may have missed it, but has anyone answered the question posted pages back:

Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?

Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.

As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!

[richatom]

Useful to who? I'm sure the AAIB have a coach-load of engineers, scientists and pilots with detailed knowedge etc. available, including people from BA, Boeing and Rolls Royce.

I don't think so:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/about_us/organisation.cfm?view=print&

I am not doubting that they are very capable, but there are contributors on here with very type specific knowledge.

[Flap 5]

Of course it would be better to have an FDR on all aircraft but you have to be practical and the CAA would have more reason to insist on an FDR on passenger carrying commercial aircraft as opposed to private aircraft.

A couple of other Citation 1 accidents have already been mentioned where it would have been invaluable to have an FDR on board. Cost? What price the safety of all Citations? If you have an aircraft worth several million dollars an FDR is not going to break your bank account. If you have an old version then you are going to spend a lot on parts anyway as they wear out. You have to be prepared to sink a fair amount of money into the aircraft anyway. Why not fit an FDR? If it were mandatory I am sure you can convince your accountant.

One reason why commercial airlines are so safe is the information learned over many years of operating them and from incidents and accidents that have happened with the aircraft becoming better designed with that knowledge.

[frostbite]

Channel 5 News at 5pm should get some sort of award for sick reporting. It would have been funny in other circumstances.

They showed a map highlighting first the airport, then the crash site, then (almost unbelievably) went on to highlight two schools and a hospital.

Schools being full of children on a Sunday, of course.

[Feathers McGraw]

It would appear that they had flown almost a full circuit, but ran out of time to make the last couple of miles.

[EESDL]

Saw what I now know was the plume of smoke as we lifted out of Brands Hatch - listening to the Sky News chopper confirming the RA(T) details with Biggin ATC.
Sympathy to all concerned

[infrequentflyer789]

I may have missed it, but has anyone answered the question posted pages back:

Did the aircraft depart runway 21 and then crash having flown almost a full circuit to return, or did it crash having departed 03 and attempted to turn back?

Sorry if it's a dumb question but I can't seem to find an answer here or on the TV.

As for not having houses under the approach to airports: That's most of West London for the bulldozer then!

This news video: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a06_1206986382 has an animation of the flight starting at about 01:00 (in the video) in. I can't vouch for it's accuracy.

[SLF-Flyer]

As some one who saw the aircraft just prior to the crash, I can report the following.

The pilot was flying very low just 400 yards or so from my home flying 45 degrees to runway 21 (I think you call this base leg) and must have crashed just as he turned to line up for the runway. My home is about a mile from the crash site and 3 miles from runway 21.

What I saw was the aircraft dipping its wings, as if in salute. No doubt, this was the pilot trying to keep the aircraft in level flight. The sound from the aircraft engines was as if it was low on power, not a lot of nuts and bolts rattling as some people have said.

It also looked as if the pilot was trying to land on the football field near the crash site. Unfortunately the field was in use by local school children at the time. Some of the children were away from school today (Monday) due to the shock of seeing the crash.

As for the fire attendance, I understand from local people. Fire services from Orpington and Bromley were called out. Biggin Hill airport fire services also attended (yellow fire truck in BBC video). Search and rescue helicopters ZH-544 from the RAF and G-BIMU Coastguard where also in attendance (obtained from photographs taken by myself).

No doubt this crash will raise the question of a main hospital being on the approach to runway 21 which is located also about 400 yards from the crash site. Pressure will once again be brought on Biggin Hill to be restricted to the type of aircraft using the airport.

May those who were lost in the crash, rest in peace. We owe a lot to the skill of the crew.

[robschopper]

Firstly, my condolences to the families of all involved. May their loved ones rest in peace.

I have to say that, for the first time in many years, I had to switch off the Sky and BBC coverage of this appalling incident. So much unbelievably bad reporting, it was truly sickening. I've seen some bad coverage in the past, but this took the biscuit.

Five people lost their lives in this crash! Bearly a mention!

Mr and Mrs whoever lost their house. Sad ... but more than likely insured. Get a new one!

Local M.P came on ... usual hospital, school, playing field etc ... shouldn't be aircraft flying over blah blah blah. Get a life!

'Pilot was a hero for avoiding hospital, and playing fields'. Now, i'll admit, i'm not a pilot, but I have been aircrew in the past. I'm sure the pilots only objective was to get back to 21 at Biggin and i'll put money on it that he wouldn't have even known the hospital was there.

As for those 'experts' on the News, they should be ashamed of themselves. They should have the balls to say 'I'm sorry, i don't know the answer to that question' instead of making up wild theories and statements with no basis in fact. One was asked by the reporter on Sky, how high the aircraft would be two miles out from the runway and stated 7000 feet!! What IS the climb rate of a Citation, as good as a fighter jet obviously! ... come on now ... make an effort!

What it all boils down to is this - rolling news programmes have to fill for time. They have journos who know sod all, questioning Mr and Mrs Chav and sonny chav who know less than sod all, often by telephone from 'their home which was almost hit by the crashing plane'. It's a sad indictment on news 'services' today ... and frankly should be banned from our lives, long before any flight paths over residential areas. Maybe we should just close all the inland airports and build new ones at the coast, so that aircraft only approach and depart over the sea!!

I wonder how long that idea will take to come up on Sky????

Watch this space!
:ugh:

[Timothy]

I had flown an hour earlier and 21 was in use; 21 is the preferred runway; I would assume a 21 departure right turn all the way back to the overhead then set course for DET, followed at some point with the problem leading to a wide left turn back for 21.

Only assumption but based on normal ops at Biggin and my experience a little earlier.

[fly777buster]

sad for all, I knew MR many years ago, but sat here with the usual 20/20, why not attempt a return to 03, it would have saved a lot of time, I think eyeinthesky mentioned this as background, but was it an option? real emers are a little bit different to those in the sim. rip and condolences to the families

[ILoadMyself]

#171,

The "off" switch is your choice with rolling news programmes.


More on David Leslie and Richard Lloyd:

http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=898&PHPSESSID=0be08b72cad0db5066cca82207507dd0

[ILoadMyself]

Read it in The Sunset Times

http://www.teaco.co.uk/

[verticalmach]

I have just spent the last hour or so going through the posts for this thread.

1) Westlake- I don't know in what capacity you have attended "other fires" but from my seven years as a full timer with the fire service you can rest assured that the officers at the scene did not go blasting water around willy nilly without regard for the evidence or structual integrity of buildings. Which, on reading your post, seems to be what you were inferring.:= The need to preserve evidence is crucial but this has to be weighed against the need to preserve life and minimise further damage. Fire fighters are not magicians. To do the job they need to do with the mediums they have at thier disposal sometimes water damage to evidence/crash parts, sadly, is inevitable.

2) As a biz-jet jock myself it pains me to hear the dross that comes out of the mouths of people I would normally consider educated. The sensationalism circulated by the media is a part of our lives that we unfortunately have to live with. It never fails to amaze me what people are prepared to say for their five mins of fame. I take comfort from the fact that the majority (I believe) listening to the garbage coming out of the TV treat it with the contempt it deserves.

3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence.

4) airports/houses- As loads of you have mentioned. Why buy a house next to an airport if you think you are going to be a statistic. In fact I have a better idea, just don't get out of bed in the morning. Oooops, sorry don't do that. An aircraft might crash on you. Jeeeeesssuuss.............:ugh: give me strength.

My thoughts are with the crew and their families. All the best to all you PP posters and safe flying.

[Tequilaboy]

Quote:

Steven and Peter Hale told reporters their mother Pat is "bearing up very well" and her husband, Ed Harmond, is on his way back from a trip abroad.

This is reference to the damage to her house. Am glad the old girl is bearing up well. End of the day she will be insured and the hubby decided that it was better to finish up his golf holiday and then return home. I really hope the family, friends and beloved of the tragically killed dont see the terrible heartbreak of this couple. I am not devaluing major damage to your house for one moment but have a heart, material posessions can be replaced, figureheads of households, fathers to children, husbands to wives and in some cases sons can never be replaced.

I did not want to get drawn in to this thread but the callous and frankly appalling reporting shoved down my throat for the last 36 hours has been too much now.

My heart and condolences goes out to all concerned and those 2 guys in LH & RH seat are held in the highest of esteem for their actions surely saved the lives of many others and showed what true professionals are made of, not some idiotic eye witnesses looking for their five minutes of limelight. RIP

[NuName]

verticalmach
Hi,
As in all things in life, cost is the driver. A Citation 501 would not be worth the millions that some people believe it would. To purchase and fit the below mentioned equipment would represent an unrealistic percentage of the hull value and this is in part caused by outrageously expensive certification charges levied by the state aviation organisations that primarily have the control of safety regulations. This applies in the manufacture and return to service phases. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, its just too expensive for the small operators.

"3) FDR/CVR- I have been doing this job coming up 10yrs and it is a shame that the above is not mandatory, I don't care if it is a "PRIVATE FLIGHT". The above should be fitted. I don't think the end result would have been any different, it would not have saved them, but at least there would be hard physical evidence."

[Timothy]

sat here with the usual 20/20, why not attempt a return to 03, it would have saved a lot of time, I think eyeinthesky mentioned this as background, but was it an option? real emers are a little bit different to those in the sim. rip and condolences to the families
Probably not part of the decision process, but a right turn would take them back over Biggin Hill village, which is even more densely populated than where they went in.

Having said that, if, as I suspect, they took a decision a mile or two East of BIG, heading East at 2400' QNH, 1800' AGL, it would not have made a huge difference which way they turned, but the turn onto 210 is actually less than onto 030 and 21 was more "obvious" as it has an ILS and all the lighting, and was the active runway.

I would have turned left under all the circs.

[Avioactive]

Concur on fact that although CVR/FDR is always desirable, on an aircraft of this age, worth around £400,000 or so, this would be prohibitively expensive, especially the FDR. One wouldn’t expect to fit them on a new piston single or twin of a similar value

[No Country Members]

To purchase and fit the below mentioned equipment would represent an unrealistic percentage of the hull value and this is in part caused by outrageously expensive certification charges levied by the state aviation organisations that primarily have the control of safety regulations

True, which is indeed an irony where the cost of certification in the name of safety as usual prohibits the fitment of safety related devices. Happy medium anybody?

[His dudeness]

EASA certainly is. One wonders if they get percentage from what they take for fees & stuff. Money is valuable to one, if it is his/hers, throwing money out of the window that does not belong to you is easy - and thats what EASA etc. are really good at.

However I´m pretty positive that the AAIB will have enough evidence to get a clue on what happened why.

BTW, we operate privately and we have CVR/DFDR. But on such an old dog?

[MrSoapsud]

People have mentioned about the wisdom of buying/building houses near airports in this thread. People have also mentioned about the proximity of a school and hospital to Biggin. Presumably both of these were also built after WW1 or whenever it was that biggin opened?

[SpeedbirdXK8]

IF and it is a BIG IF it turns out that the cause of the crash was due to bird strike in both engines (rare but possible) can you image the above headline from another so called BBC (read all news media) expert. Being April 1st perhaps we should start a rumour after all the BBC are trying to convince us that Pengiuns (sic) can fly!!

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

They must have been told light aircraft has crashed and maybe never thought it was a jet. To my knowledge a Citation uses A1 Jet Fuel and not LPG. Considering it's surrounding's it could have been much worse.


We're going way off topic here, but I'll reply to this anyway.

Have you not considered what may be under and around the accident site? The garage containing several patio heater gas cylinders, the various paints and solvents stored in garages, the gas supply to the affected house etc etc? LPG cylinders go BANG in a big way, and Jet A1 (not A1 Jet) is a pussycat in comparison.. A Fire officer will need to weigh up the risks before comitting men to the scene. It would have been fairly obvious that there was no immediate threat to life, so the next stage would have been to secure the accident scene, no matter how long it takes....

Think before you write.....:ok:

[Beausoleil]

"People have mentioned about the wisdom of buying/building houses near airports in this thread. People have also mentioned about the proximity of a school and hospital to Biggin. Presumably both of these were also built after WW1 or whenever it was that biggin opened?"

"We were here first" is not enshrined as a principle of settling such things, though. If having an airport nearby was shown to be dangerous to nearby houses (of course it isn't) then moving the airport or changing the way it operates would be the less disruptive option. The same goes for chemical plants and other such things. When you do a risk assessment you don't take into account when the various parties arrived relative to the risk.

In no rational world is a nearby airport a significant threat against the background danger level we all experience just by being alive. Win the argument that way. "These people chose to be near the risk" won't... fly.

[cats_five]

I don't think so:
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/about_us/organisation.cfm?view=print&

I am not doubting that they are very capable, but there are contributors on here with very type specific knowledge.

Am I wrong in thinking that Boeing & RR are providing resource to the AAIB? If they are, are you suggesting that there are people here who know even more than the manufacturers?

[Phil Brockwell]

I'm not sure my timing is appropriate, but is anyone else wondering about the whole public transport / AOC question over this one, I've not seen anywhere if the passengers were the owners of the airframe?

Phil

[Super VC-10]

#167

Which was there first does count. I live within a mile of Caister heliport. I cab hear the helicopters early in the morning when they are running their engines before flight. I would not dream of making a complaint about that. I was fully aware that the heliport was there when I bought my property. IMHO, the only ones with a right to complain about airport noise are those who were there before said airport was built. The rest wil ljust have to lump it.

[Southernboy]

"Ask and ye shall receive."

Thanks Duck, now we're all happy.

[robbreid]

AAIB Press Release (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_news/cessna_citation_501_accident_in_kent___press_statement_1_apr il_2008.cfm)- first confirmation I've seen on the registration,
VP-BGE, and stating wreckage to be moved on Wednesday.

Flightaware Thread (http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?t=5112)accident information on recent Citation accident in Oklahoma N113SH. There is some information regarding potential bird strike/s bringing down this aircraft, to date, there has never been a Citation brought down by bird strikes.

Aviation Safety Network (http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=COOB)52 completed accident reports worldwide, of known aircraft brought down by bird strikes.

List includes 14 biz jets, 5 Falcon 20, 3 Lear 24, 2 Sabreliners, 1 Lear 23,
1 Lear 25, 1 Lear 35, and I Hawker.

[moggiee]

I'm not sure my timing is appropriate, but is anyone else wondering about the whole public transport / AOC question over this one, I've not seen anywhere if the passengers were the owners of the airframe?

Phil
No you're not the only one. As AOC holders ourselves, we were pondering this question at work today - I assume it will all come out in the wash.

By the way, I don't think that the timing is "inappropriate" - whether it has an bearing on the investigation is another matter.

[robbreid]

Flight Global clears up some of the misinformation.

Click Here (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/04/01/222645/biggin-hill-crash-citation-was-turning-onto-final-approach.html)

[lc_aerobatics]

Good to hear that but I work in Biggin and it is not 60 km away from London, apart from that great to hear the part about Biggin Hill and new builds around, I wish that BBC or Sky play it on their news...........:suspect:

[Astra driver]

Thanks robbreid,

2 days and 174 posts and finally some usefull information.

[Mike Whiskey Romeo]

Firstly, My deepest sympathies to all affected by this terrible tragedy.

Secondly, I'm glad to see that Flight Global and Mr. Learmount have brought a sense of professionalism and decorum to the reporting on this accident.:ok: For some reason I doubt Sky will bother to quote FG though, too much like professional journalism...

[SLF-Flyer]

Photo taken from my house just after the crash. The plane past about 400 yards to the left of my location at a very low level. Which would be left hand from Biggin 21.

http://www.lacasita.demon.co.uk/bh/img_0466a.jpg


RIP

[snowfalcon2]

My thoughts are with all those affected by this accident.
I agree with MWR. As I haven't seen photos of the scene, I wonder about the condition of the wreckage and the investigators' possibilities to find out the cause? Specifically the condition of the engines and the instrument panel, where presumably good clues (possible bird remains, gps memory etc) are most likely to be found. Hopefully the investigation can contribute to making aviation even safer in the future.

[kinsman]

I believe the owner has several businesses including part or all of a racing team! The pilot of the aircraft was a close personal friend and I can tell you he would not have operated the aircraft if all was not above board and the owner would not have asked him too. Mike Chapman was one the most professional pilots I have ever known and also one of the nicest and most honourable guys it has ever been my privilege to meet. I count myself fortunate to have known him and called him my friend. These are not just words nor am I alone in my opinion; I have never met anyone who would have a bad word to say about the man. A gentleman, a great aviator and all round good guy, I only hope we can all leave this life so well respected and loved by those who knew us as Mike has!

I have to say I have been appalled by some of the reporting on this incident and disappointed at some of the remarks on this forum. Show a little respect for his friends and family and don’t turn this into an opportunity to get the airport near houses argument to the fore. Accidents happen; very rarely does an aircraft crash into houses near or far from airfields.

Mike will be missed by all who knew him as will the other victims of this accident.

[richatom]

Am I wrong in thinking that Boeing & RR are providing resource to the AAIB? If they are, are you suggesting that there are people here who know even more than the manufacturers?


No, in answer to your question.

My original point was that speculation/hunches as to the cause of an accident should always be very welcome on a forum such as this because there are many pilots/engineers/scientists with very varied and broad experience here who can make a genuine contribution - look at the 777 thread as an example. There is no way that the AAIB can solicit that breadth of voluntary contribution from its limited field of experts and linear communication with them. That is why open forums like PPRUNE should always be encouraged to speculate as to the cause of accidents.

[NuName]

With reference to post #180, there is every reason to accept that this aircraft was being flown quite legally. At least, in this country, innocence is presumed until guilt is proved. I think the aspersions would be better left for the authorities. A professional pilot appropriately licenced and rated may accept payment to fly an aircraft for a private flight. I have seen nothing to suggest that this was other than that, nor even that there was any payment involved. Posts insinuating otherwise are very inflammatory.

[kinsman]

V12

Sorry you can' take a hint! I suggest you wait for the report and perhaps you and others will think twice before posting such inflammatory speculation on a public forum in relation to such a tragic accident in future! :mad:

[PPRuNe Towers]

... and we have absolutely no problem with the question being asked.

Rob

[davyboy]

I knew one of the passengers on this flight, David Leslie. He was a really decent bloke, one of the nicest motorsport professionals you could meet.

This is clearly a terrible tragedy with life changing consequences for the families of all those who succumbed. The outpouring of tributes over the last few days is an indicator for how badly these guys will be missed.

I'm new to the forum and have read this thread from the beginning. As I'm not an expert, I can't hope to speculate what happened, but there are some reasonable possible causes here, including the baggage flap issue and uncontained engine failure. Hopefully the investigators will be able to get to the bottom of what happened help give some sense of closure to the families.

Just to clear up something. Does anyone know if the plane was owned by Richard Lloyd or chartered by him for this flight ? If the latter, who owned the plane ?

[kinsman]

Rob

Question asked and answered! I see V12 has removed his post and for that I thank him.

[Avioactive]

VP-BGE was owned, at least until the latter part of last year by Pan Maritime Ltd, part of the Dovey Group of companies (Cardiff?), reputedly sold though around October 2007. Over its life, the aircraft had resided in both the USA and Brazil

[suzukiraider]

The cylinders that were talked about were probably the oxygen and nitrogen bottles that are fitted to Citations. The oxygen bottle can go up with a very big bang an blow a load of debris a big distance.

[frontlefthamster]

richatom,

Are you seriously saying either that professional investigators don't know where to get expert input, or don't bother to do so?

Do you believe that they waste time trawling through pages of low brow 'discussion' in hope of finding an answer?

Seriously, I'd love to know your answers to those two questions...

[Scratch Pad]

AAIB can solicit that breadth of voluntary contribution from its limited field of experts


:D





Now that's priceless.

.......

[eyeinthesky]

Some stories bouncing around that the aircraft might have been fuelled with AVGAS, not Jet A1, at Biggin before departure.

Anyone else heard this?

[newcomer]

Can jet engines run on AVGAS, I know the PT6 can run on AVGAS for 150hr between overhauls. And looking at the flight manual nothing changes apart from the fact fuel pumps must be on at all times. No idea if this is the same for a jet again?

[forget]

Citation 500 Avgas limits. 50 hours or 3500 gals; between overhauls; 32c fuel temp; boost pumps on; 18,000 max alt; all hours logged.

[Southernboy]

Apologies if this has already been asked but as one not familiar with the type, any ideas why they couldn't fly a circuit on the one remaining engine? I've not seen speculation that both were affected & as a public transport a/c it should have been capable in theory.

[richatom]

richatom,

Are you seriously saying either that professional investigators don't know where to get expert input, or don't bother to do so?

No, not saying that at all. I am sure they can get access to any external expert field they wish too (and no doubt at a price too). My point was that their in-house expertise, although very high, is nevertheless limited (that answers scratch pad too).

Do you believe that they waste time trawling through pages of low brow 'discussion' in hope of finding an answer?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they glance at these sorts of threads occasionally, to see if anybody has thrown something useful into the pot. Accident investigation can often involve following a hunch to at least exclude it, and there were several interesting suggestions on the 777 thread, particularly from chemists and fuel experts, that could well have merited further investigation if they hadn't already investigated and excluded it themselves.

Collaborative discussion groups can be a very useful tool in all forms of research, and so I am sure they can also be useful in accident investigation.

But anyway, we are digressing from my original point, that there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in contributors on here speculating as to the cause of an accident.

[Duck Rogers]

there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in contributors on here speculating as to the cause of an accident.


Providing those are reasonable speculations and not barmpot theories along the lines of some of those in the BA/777 thread. Something in the order of 200 posts had to be deleted from that one.:hmm:

[richatom]

Providing those are reasonable speculations and not barmpot theories along the lines of some of those in the BA/777 thread. Something in the order of 200 posts had to be deleted from that one.


Exactly - that is why most collaborative internet research tools used by researchers are closed to the general public. I still think, however, that discussion groups such as pprune could and can be useful in accident investigation, especially when there is no immediately obvious avenue of inquiry, such as the BA777 thread. Amongst all the noise on that thread there was some very good discussion and argument by people with a lot of knowledge of the airframe and route. If I recall correctly, there were several pilots and engineers with very detailed knowledge of the airframe, voluntarily contributing their information, thereby allowing other contributors to reconsider or refine their own arguments, resulting in some very constructive debate. Such group expert debate is very difficult to recreate in a classic accident investigation as getting multiple experts together in one room is expensive and logistically difficult.

[Flingingwings]

Accepting that it's reasonable to ask questions :ok:

The major difference between the AAIB and internet forums is that they WAIT until they have reviewed ALL the available FACTS, before commenting.

Agree we'd all do well to learn from previous incidents, but strangely these lengthy '9 o'clock jury' opinion threads only ever happen after the incident, not in any great detail when the AAIB report is released :confused:

Accept it's horses for courses, but I'd rather discuss the facts than speculate (especially as this incident brings the number of friends I've 'lost' to aviation in 12 month to 2 :( )

[Phil77]

Southernboy:


Apologies if this has already been asked but as one not familiar with the type, any ideas why they couldn't fly a circuit on the one remaining engine? I've not seen speculation that both were affected & as a public transport a/c it should have been capable in theory.

Yes, of course you can fly the CE-500 single engine - as a matter of fact, both pilots have to demonstrate proficiency to react appropriately to an engine failure on takeoff (for the layman: after passing a certain speed you HAVE to take it into the air - no matter if the engine vibrates or if it just exploded and/or fell off).
I found the single engine climb performance to be reasonably well (up to 1000ft/min)!

Certainly, how you react when the sh** hits the fan in reality could be quite different than under simulated conditions, I guess.
I was even taught to leave the levers alone until I actually have time to decide which engine is the one that causes trouble and what actions to take (first: "fly the airplane!"). Looking at the highly UN-sophisticated systems on this airplane, there are no hydraulics, no computers or electronics that could prevent the aircraft from flying; or that could be shattered from an catastrophic engine failure (except maybe the fuel lines on the other side of the fuselage).

[richatom]

As you have experience on type, how easy is it to detect which engine has failed? With both engines close to the aircraft centre-line, I would imagine that yaw and roll towards the failing engine are not that marked. And how easy would it be to read the engine instruments in a heavily vibrating cockpit?

[richatom]

The major difference between the AAIB and internet forums is that they WAIT until they have reviewed ALL the available FACTS, before commenting.



Yes, but you can bet that the AAIB do a lot of internal speculating when they start investigating an accident! They start by investigating likely scenarios, based on their experience and judgement, then use their resources accordingly. That doesn't mean that they jump to conclusions - but establishing possible scenarios is certainly part of an investigation. That is why I suspect that in cases of particularly mistifying accidents, where there is no immediately apparent line of enquiry, that the open forum suggestions and discussions of experts on a particular airframe or technology could indeed be useful.

[Flingingwings]

In a previous role I have been an accident investigator with vehicles.

You'd start an investigation by gaining the facts - physical evidence and first hand accounts. Then using the experience and expertise you mention you'd consider the possible causes. No point in considering the causes without the evidence! An approach with an open mind I would suggest being the best. Although in many cases, with the evidence the actual cause was clearly evident.

I've no doubt that AAIB will discuss investigations within the AAIB. Why not, they are all experienced, highly trained professionals.

Who's said this incident is mystifying? What this thread lacks are the actual FACTS :ugh: What it has is speculation :hmm:

Things would have to be really bad to rely upon an open forum for divine intervention. :{

Who says the seemingly knowledgeable post comes from a real experienced engineer?

9 o'clock juries have their place, open forums being one of them. A little knowledge IS a dangerous thing. As I've suggested, once the AAIB report is released the threads never get the same detailed explanations from the gathered masses :confused:

You remain free to gain your 'knowledge' from whatever sources you choose, as do I (and others).

As stated I'd rather know the REAL reason my friend has died (or atleast the best educated guess from an acknowledged expert in possession of all the facts)

[Phil77]

As you have experience on type, how easy is it to detect which engine has failed? With both engines close to the aircraft centre-line, I would imagine that yaw and roll towards the failing engine are not that marked. And how easy would it be to read the engine instruments in a heavily vibrating cockpit?

I remember on my first flight that I was actually surprised by the amount of yaw I still experienced when one engine was pulled. However, keeping the ball centered and getting the old "dead-foot-dead-engine" right (for the lack of reliable/visually identifiable gages) in such a moment is nothing I believe is going to be easy.

I am lacking actual experience of an emergency of that dimension and I certainly can only hope that the accident investigation comes up with an explanation to prevent future accidents - should it be determined that somehow all control surfaces became unusuable and/or both engines suddenly disintegrate due to a structual, design issue or maintenance problem of some kind.

ATTENTION SPECULATION:
If all other factors can be excluded, than the bird-strike springs to mind - like in march, the suspected one in Oklahoma (on the same type! what would be the ods?)... Unfortunately that very accident shows the limits of post accident investigation: since the aircraft descended vertical into the ground, who can tell afterwards if the pilot was killed by the initial bird strike (I heard birds tend to split in two or more parts - one goes through the windshield and the other part into the engine :uhoh:)?
(slight thread creep, I apologize)

...oh btw, my take on speculation:
Of course it is not appropriate to insult anybody or attack others, but if the speculation is dealt with in a professional manner, it can be beneficial for many (of course only if there are people out there who now what they are talking about - and where do you find 'em when not here?).
I remember a very long thread over in the Rotorheads section regarding the Dolphin crash in the north sea in december 2006 where unfortunately so many people (incl. two highly experienced pilots) where fataly injured.
Beeing a rotorhead by trade, just by reading about the possible problems they might have ran into that night, helped me a great deal understanding and I learned a lot how CRM, night flying offshore, SAS/autopilots actually work!
Nobody would have come up with such a scenario or discussion in the first place and to be honest, I never learned about the real cause from the AAIB (its a bit late at night to search for it now) because whe tend to go on and loose interest - more precise: the news media looses interest.

...running for cover...


Edit:
Ok, ok I looked it up ;):

In the latest special bulletin stating the importance for the oil and gas industry it was deemed appropriate to disseminate the results as soon as possible - that bulletin was issued in January 2007. Nothing since.

"Please let's all ignore that the cause of the accident might have been p**** error (there is probably a ban on that word too); don't speculate about things that might help other people from doing the same mistake(s) and let's wait a couple of years for the final report". :ugh:

Pardon my sarkasm.

[pilotbear]

I am all for speculation and ideas when something happens without an obvious answer. Why people should feel it necessary to criticise someone else's reasoning is beyond me, Oh wait, we are on pprune! any excuse for loud mouth 'holier than thou' thought police to get their word in and dictate the way things should be done. :rolleyes: Especially the cowardly anonymous ones.
If you disagree with something then give an your adult (look that up) coherent (look that up too) argument (Look that up also as you probably think it means fight).
If I should have the misfortune to be involved in an accident then I give full permission for the cause to be debated to the full whether it be caused by a stall avoiding an alien spacecraft, a radio controlled mouse biting my foot causing me to put the wrong rudder in:eek: or me just f*****g it up.:ok:

[Duck Rogers]

If you disagree with something then give an your adult (look that up) coherent (look that up too) argument (Look that up also as you probably think it means fight).

Coherent?

Pssst, the edit button is down there ;)

[pilotbear]

didn't take you long...got nothing better on:E
now i have got to wait 120 seconds

[Duck Rogers]

Then I'll edit your reply to make it look like you screwed it up :E



Duck (with nothing better to do this afternoon)

[pilotbear]

Coherent

adjective: capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner

this 120 second thing is annoying:bored:

[Duck Rogers]

this 120 second thing is annoying



Uncanny!!

That's just what my missus said in bed last night.

[pilotbear]

that isn't very sporting is it now?:ouch:

:ok:

[pilotbear]

bl**dy H**l you managed it three times then?:ok:

I think we are getting off topic here old chap aren't we might get moderated by the moderators moderator.:=

:cool:

[Duck Rogers]

Dead right. Back on topic please before we have an outbreak of fun.

[Pace]

Hi I have read these threads and avoided posting as not only have I flown the aircraft that crashed but flew with the Pilot who was killed.

The pilot was a cool character who came to flying after pressure deep diving for the oil companies. He had a lot of experience on type, was single pilot rated.

The aircraft before it was sold was always well maintained and when I flew her she flew like a dream.

I hope the accident investigators find a cause other than an engine failure as that alone should not bring a citation down.

My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.

Guesswork here isnt going to add anything as we all try to imagine scenarios where such a situation may occur.

Yes we hope some reason is found because otherwise its a case of there for the grace of god go I and we all need the reasons avoidable or unavoidable.

Pace

[Phil77]

pilotbear:
Why people should feel it necessary to criticise someone else's reasoning is beyond me, Oh wait, we are on pprune! any excuse for loud mouth 'holier than thou' thought police to get their word in and dictate the way things should be done.


:D

but...

pilotbear:
Especially the cowardly anonymous ones

which part is your last name? "Bear"? ;)
...relax, I'm joking! would you want everybody to leave his phonenumber? :rolleyes:
But also I know what you're coming from, people feel brave when their name isn't public.


pace:
My concern is that there isnt enough left of the wreckage to 100% determine a cause and only the pilots might know when the plot was lost.

my point exactly! (so there will be no real result of the investigation)

Guesswork here isnt going to add anything as we all try to imagine scenarios where such a situation may occur.

If its valid and professional "guesswork" I don't see a problem with it!?
So because there's nothing left, we all should shut up, mind our own business and (besides condolences) never discuss what might have led to the accident?
People who have known a person involved might not like the outcome or the discussion itself, which is understandeable, but maybe "they" should not take a personal offense (I stress: from a professional discussion).

Only my two cents
(and unfortunately nothing that has really to do with the topic)

[Pace]

>If its valid and professional "guesswork" I don't see a problem with it!?
So because there's nothing left, we all should shut up, mind our own business and (besides condolences) never discuss what might have led to the accident?
People who have known a person involved might not like the outcome or the discussion itself, which is understandeable, but maybe "they" should not take a personal offense (I stress: from a professional discussion).<

Phil

The problem with guesswork is that not only are there much greater implications ie insurance claims but there is the reputation of the pilot at stake who is no longer here to defend himself.

There have been a number of fatal crashes where the outcome of why has been inconclusive.

The investigators may only have radio transmissions and radar traces to go on and saying that the pilot may have done this or that without hard evidence has broader implications.

As pilots we need to know so that we can avoid a recurrence. I did not know Mike as a close friend but had flown with him and had flown the aircraft myself at a later date.

Hence it comes closer to home for me than most in this forum. I only hope the conclusion is some act of God like birds through both engines.

But I have a horrible feeling that this will be one of those inconclusive investigations which leaves us all with vivid imaginations as to what may have gone wrong.

Pace

[His dudeness]

The problem with guesswork is that not only are there much greater implications ie insurance claims but there is the reputation of the pilot at stake who is no longer here to defend himself.

yeah sure, insurance won´t pay because user his dudeness at pprune.org said it might have been a pilot error. Give me a break, man...

And if he´d survived it, it would be different because 'he could defense himself' ??? - What if he would not bother to look at pprune?

Dude, you can´t hide ANYTHING in Aviation any more, like it or not. Spotters, internet flight paln tracking etcetc.

So, if WE, all pilots, would stop speculating, there would be still at least hundreds of other doing that.

[Phil77]

Pace:
I think I would probably argue the same way myself if it would come "this close to home" like you said (like that term).

However, I think the benefit outway's the issues a (naturally) small affected minority has with questioning the pilots actions. Again, I do not intend to badmouth anybody, but if there is a chance he in fact did something horribly wrong (and that could even have been commonly thought in the SOP), then discussing it could rise the awareness of other pilots flying the same type (like me!).

Please don't take offense by me calling you a minority.
You might talked in the past with others about accidents too, when you or your friends were not involved? Did you honestly care at that point who's feelings might have been hurt? I know a public forum is a different story, but believe me, I do not intend to destroy somebody's reputation (not even postmortem) but we are not fail-safe and we will never be.
All I want to do is discuss the options openly without being punished for even considering that human factors might be involved.

Please understand my point of view...
I tend to concur with "his dudeness" that just because somebody mentioned it might have been p*** e****, the reputation of the pilot will not be hurt.

[Pace]

Phil

In all likelyhood it probably was P**** E**** most accidents are. I know the aircraft was very well maintained until its sale last october so certainly no bag of nails. That doesnt preclude some failure because even well maintained aircraft fail.

A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out so there has to be some other factor mechanical or human which added to this.

The important thing is that whatever the cause the findings are conclusive so that we other pilots can avoid a simular situation.

pace

[Phil77]

Thanks Pace for not getting it the wrong way! :ok:


"A citation doesnt go down on a simple one engine out"

...and since that's exactly my understanding I'd like to discuss something like that with my fellow busdrivers without getting chastised!

Everything said, whoever wants to get back on topic...

;)

[keepin it in trim]

I am not rated on the cessna types, so could someone give me an answer on a couple of things, how much of a margin were they likely to have on mtom structural/ MTOM performance limits for the flight they had planned, and how awkward/unforgiving is the cessna if you are up near the performance limits in the event of a single engine failure, I know some aircraft can be very unforgiving in this regime.

[Pace]

Hi well put it this way on a recurrent test I have gone around in the flare with full flap and gear down at fairly light weight.

In such a situation and low speed there is a fair amount of yaw but that diminishes as the aircraft is cleaned up and speed builds.

At around 140 kts the aircraft is perfectly manageable in the climb.
In level flight with the aircraft clean there is little yaw.

A climb rate of 900 fpm is not difficult on one engine as long as temps and weight are ok.
That is why I say there has to be some other factor involved human or mechanical.

The citation 500 is not a seneca or light twin in that respect struggling to get a couple of hundred feet for minute.

pace

[littco]

I heard today that there is an article in one of the sunday papers today that the owner of the plane had been arrested over the alleged illegal charter of the ill fated flight.. Is this true?

[ChrisGr31]

There is a small article on Kent Online about this http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kol08/article/default.asp?article_id=40532

[Phil Brockwell]

Any idea on the relationship the accused had to the flight?

[Monkey Boy]

More on the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7363622.stm

[mrloop]

AAIB Special Bulletin issued: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/special_bulletins/s2_2008___cessna_citation_500__vp_bge.cfm

[robbreid]

Flightglobal update in response to the previous threads contents from AAIB; http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/04/25/223271/no-engine-or-control-damage-found-in-crashed-citation-at-biggin.html

[Pace]

This is a very upsetting report as it maybe one of those accidents which has no clear reason.

Most of the aircraft was detroyed so not a lot to go on.

Witnesses who contradict each other. ie some said the gear was up, some down. Some said the engines were running at high power some said the engines were not running.

Now with what they do have left of the engines No double bird strike, no major engine failure.

So what would cause a citation which is a doddle to fly engine out to crash when in level flight and not just after takeoff.

For those of us who Fly citations and especially a 500 as I do I know that I would really like to know a conclusive reason especially as both pilots were experienced and competant.

pace

[SLF-Flyer]

As someone that saw the plane, prior to the crash I can inform you that I could hear it coming towards my house. As a result I looked upwards to see the type as it was quite loud, but not sounding as if anything was wrong.

To my surprise the plane was almost at rooftop height to the left of my house (I am 300 ASL) passing along the line of Ashbourne Rise (BR6 9PZ) and then over playing fields to the crash site.

I only got a quick glimpse of the plane, due to a tree in the way. The thrust plume from the engines was smaller than I expected and the pilot was trying to keep the plane level, the wings were dipping up and down as if in salute.

If the tree had not interrupted my view of the plane, I could have probably seen it all the way to the crash site about a mile away and therefore give more information than I can.

One jet, a light plane and a helicopter crashing in the local area in the past three years or so, is making people a little jumpy around here. Personally I think that I have more chance of a bad car crash than being hit by a plane and yes I will be at the air display in June.

What still gives me a cold shudder from some 17 years ago, is seeing a 747 pull up over the tail of what looked like a DC9 (rear engine job). The 747 was in the Biggin stack and I think the DC9 was out of Heathrow, I have never told the wife.

[Vino Collapso]

One jet, a light plane and a helicopter crashing in the local area in the past three years or so, is making people a little jumpy around here. Personally I think that I have more chance of a bad car crash than being hit by a plane and yes I will be at the air display in June.

What still gives me a cold shudder from some 17 years ago, is seeing a 747 pull up over the tail of what looked like a DC9 (rear engine job). The 747 was in the Biggin stack and I think the DC9 was out of Heathrow, I have never told the wife.

I started to believe you until the last few sentences.

The helicopter was no where near Farnborough. What light plane are you talking about? And as for the rubbish about the B747 and the DC9!!!

Sorry but you just made yourself an 'unreliable' witness.

[NuName]

Please tell us the story of below, I'm on the edge of my seat.:yuk:

"What still gives me a cold shudder from some 17 years ago, is seeing a 747 pull up over the tail of what looked like a DC9 (rear engine job). The 747 was in the Biggin stack and I think the DC9 was out of Heathrow, I have never told the wife."

[SLF-Flyer]

Vino Collapso (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=103766)

The pilot of the helicopter in question was asked to consider not taking off from Biggin as I recall, but crashed soon after taking off about 5 miles from the airport near Chelsfield, which is in the LB of Bromley. The light plane also came down also in the Chelsfield area and crashed onto a road killing the two pilots.

As for the near miss, I am not telling pokies.

[SLF-Flyer]

January 2003


A flight instructor and his 15-year-old son, Simon, had just got the five-seater Bell 206 Jet Ranger back after a four-day maintenance check on January 17.
But the pair were killed when the private aircraft crashed into a field at Cudham Lane South and burst into flames at about 3.40pm.


The helicopter experienced problems soon after taking off from Biggin Hill Airport for a 15-minute journey to Southend Airport.

October 2005: A light aircraft, a Piper Cherokee, crashes into Victoria Gardens, less than half a mile from Biggin Hill airport, narrowly missing several houses.

The helicopter pilot is hailed a hero after swerving his stricken craft away from houses before it plunges to the ground, killing him and his passenger, his son.

I rest my case.

[vancouv]

It appears from the report that the plane passed through the overhead. I'm a PPL who flies a PA28 and if I was in the overhead I would expect to be able to glide in, even with no engine.

Can someone tell me if this is not possible in something like a Citation? Do you need to extend so far out from the field that gliding onto the runway is not an option?

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but I have no experience of flying anything bigger than a PA28.

[Feathers McGraw]

Would someone with the requisite knowledge care to explain the process of getting fuel from the tanks to the engines in a Citation 500 please.

Is there a common feed mechanism to both engines?

[Chilli Monster]

Vancouv - yes, you can glide the aircraft. Flight manual quotes 125 Kts @8500 lbs. This aircraft would have been considerable heavier, so glide speed would have been higher. As you have to put the nose down to increase speed I suspect the glide would have turned into a very fast, semi controlled impact on the airfield from the height it was at. You need to be quite a bit higher to think about the glide option.

Feathers - LH fuel supplies the Left engine, RH fuel supplies the Right Engine. Separate systems, via a series of pumps and injectors. Cross feed is an option if required to keep the tanks in balance (Single Engine Ops).

[Feathers McGraw]

Thanks for the explanation Chilli Monster, I didn't expect anyone to say that there was a common path for fuel to engines.

So, engines apparently very short of thrust and vibrating (possible misdiagnosis of the latter), but whatever caused that seems to require both engines to be in a similar situation as the s/e performance is described as adequate.

Fuel starvation, again? They clearly had more than enough on board as evinced by the post crash fire. And only 700ft to play with.

What sort of glide angle could you achieve at 10k pounds weight?

[roljoe]

Hi,

you don't fly an angle, you fly a speed with a jet in a glide condition..

anyhow,..700ft is really to low..to come back..go strait and look for a road or a flat field, and prepare to land on the belly..

[Feathers McGraw]

Yes, I know about the speed rather than angle, I was asking to get some idea of how far you can glide from 700ft agl.

[Chilli Monster]

Depends how fast you're going. If you have to accelerate then you nose down, so that's more height lost. You're probably looking at 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile - no more.

[roljoe]

So for Feathers, if you know about the speed , you should also know that this a/c was in a post take-off segment, meaning that the speed was not in excess...this to say that you get only a few seconds to take proper action to save the day...which is not a piece of cake...

just remember the "Concorde" in the vicinity of Paris

[hedgehopper]

"roljoe: you don't fly an angle, you fly a speed with a jet in a glide condition.."

From EMERGENCY/ABNORMAL PROCEDURES Citation I/ISP Revision 1 sep 1996

Tab 10A MAXIMUM GLIDE-EMERGENCY LANDING

"Maximun Glide Speed........AOA .35"

Then speeds: flap 0
7,500 114
8,500 120
9,500 126
10,500 132
11,350 137
11,850 140

VREF......... AOA .6"

"AOA" Angle of Attack is displayed on a gauge above the electrical panel to the top left of the P1 panel " (can't find a picture) but there is a triangle at .35 AOA for best Climb/Glide. There is also a slow(Red "^")/On speed (Green "O")/fast indicator (Amber down cheveron) available only to the P1 for "normal approaches" above the panel, displayed by lights.

The AAIB in S02/2008 state " The aircraft then manoeuvred to overhead the airfield at approximately 1,200 ft aal"

Regards

Hedgehopper

[pilotbear]

roljoe, please explain what you mean by remember Concorde?

[Vino Collapso]

A flight instructor and his 15-year-old son, Simon, had just got the five-seater Bell 206 Jet Ranger back after a four-day maintenance check on January 17.
But the pair were killed when the private aircraft crashed into a field at Cudham Lane South and burst into flames at about 3.40pm.


The helicopter experienced problems soon after taking off from Biggin Hill Airport for a 15-minute journey to Southend Airport.

October 2005: A light aircraft, a Piper Cherokee, crashes into Victoria Gardens, less than half a mile from Biggin Hill airport, narrowly missing several houses.

The helicopter pilot is hailed a hero after swerving his stricken craft away from houses before it plunges to the ground, killing him and his passenger, his son.

I rest my case.

This is not really the thread to be batting this subject to and fro but one last response.

Correct the helicopter came down in Cudham Lane South. The clue is in the name Cudham not Chelsham. Bearing approx 110 degrees from the airport.

The light aircraft was a PA38 ending up in Victoria Gardens, Biggin Hill not Chelsham. Bearing from the airport approx. 200 degrees.

The C501 came down near Farnborough Village, Kent. Bearing from the airport approx. 020 degrees.

Pretty widespread pattern with only one common denominator. They were all within 3 miles of an airport.

You must be part of the 'Flightpath' alliance or quoting from a mis-informed local newspaper article?

[ChrisGr31]

Its not the right thread, but to the best of my knowledge no aircraft have crashed within 3 miles of my house in the 30 years I have lived there, let alone 3.

Therefore it might be that there is a greater chance of an aircraft crashing on your house if you are near an airport, but its still a pretty small chance.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

AOA indexer only works on the 500 with the gear down - so no donuts

[Feathers McGraw]

Roljoe and Chilli Monster

Thanks for the info, my own calculation based on a rough 7 degree descent angle said about 3/4 mile or so, allowing a little height for a flare and landing.

I quite agree that they had very little margin to play with and in fact looking at where they eventually ran out of options I'd say they did an exceptional job of getting as far as they did.

Knowing the area somewhat, it's a fairly hilly area too, so terrain clearance would have been at a premium whichever direction they were from Biggin.

I wonder if the recent maintenance activities on the jet might have had a bearing?

[om15]

The aircraft was maintained to AMM Chapters 4 and 5 of CESCOM, all maintenance was up to date and carried out by Approved Part 145 Organisations.
Prelim statement from AAIB indicated that there is no evidence to indicate an engine failure, nor indication of starter generator bearing failure which could cause engine vibration.

Any speculation regarding maintenance is purely that, speculation, so unless you have specific information regarding this aircraft which may be of value to the AAIB, best not muse on this on a public forum.

Best regards,
om15

[moggiee]

vancouv:

Gliding is not something that would normally enter the equation as the aeroplane in question has two engines, unlike a PA28. Because of this, there should be no need to consider gliding as the statistical probability of losing both engines is tiny. In short, lose an engine on a PA28 and you have to glide - lose an engine on a twin and you SHOULD still be able to fly on the remaining engine.

As a result, following an engine failure, the intention would be to return to the airfield for a single engine approach. The approach would normally be flown with a lesser flap setting than for two engines, and a slightly higher approach speed to compensate (typically 5-10kts faster). The lesser flap setting means less drag, requiring less power (and therefore creating less asymmetry) but also gives less lift, hence the higher approach speed. The higher speed also gives better control authority, meaning (in theory) better control response.

They would aim to fly the approach at a 3 degree descent angle - the same as for an ILS approach or visual approach. A 3 degree descent will bring you down at a rate of 320' per nautical mile and so if they were 2500' above ground level, they would take an approximate 8nm approach (plus about 2nm for getting settled in final approach track and configuring for approach).

However, when manoeuvring with an engine out, care must be taken to avoid letting the speed get too low as there is less thrust available to recover. If speed is allowed to get too low then the rudder/fin lose control authority and due to the asymmetric thrust caused by one engine, it will become increasingly difficult to maintain directional control. In extreme cases, the aeroplane will yaw and then roll, ultimately entering a spiral dive or stall.

Turning increases drag and therefore will tend to cause IAS to reduce. If IAS reduces far enough, directional control will be compromised and, if the speed drops far enough, drag will increase dramatically as the aeroplane finds itself on the "wrong side of the drag curve".

Some twin engined aeroplanes are a little short on power following an engine failure and may struggle to maintain airspeed when turning - especially if they are heavy (as this Citation was). In such cases, it may be very difficult to avoid a significant speed loss in a sustained turn - such as a base turn onto final approach.

My suspicion, for what it's worth, is that the most likely cause of the crash was that, following a loss of power, the speed dropped too low whilst manoeuvring and directional control was compromised. However, we may never know for sure.

[CL300]

VmcA is below Vs at any weight on a CE500....

Now that the heat is down, if we were talking about training and yearly competency check in simulators ? and for the sake of it i should add, if any ?

[moggiee]

VmcA is below Vs at any weight on a CE500....
Thanks for that. Still, either stall or loss of directional control, it doesn't make much difference if you allow the speed to get too low in a turn at a very low altitude - you're still in trouble.

[n305fa]

OM15

The AAIB bulletin doesn't discount a problem with the engines, all it says is that there was no indication of FOD , birdstrike or any blade or bearing failures, there is no mention of starter generators or any other accessories for that matter, so its probabley jumping to conclusions to rule out the starter generators as a source of vibs yet.

[Feathers McGraw]

om15

Sorry if my comment was misinterpreted, I wasn't saying that the maintenance done was at fault, merely asking if it included the engines and fuel system. I don't know what was done you see, so I asked it it had any bearing.

I'm sure the AAIB will be following that up, in any case.

[om15]

Feathers,
Yes sure, hopefully the cause will be established and any necessary recommendations made to prevent another accident. Naturally the Organisations and the people who maintain the aircraft find this situation very difficult, hence my request not to speculate, n305fa, take your point, I was trying to say that nothing yet published indicated engines.
Best regards,
om15

[HappyFran]

I've heard a rumour circulating that the aircraft may have uploaded the wrong fuel...may explain both engine vibration...but is this a possibility ? :confused::confused:

[CL300]

the JT15D can run on AVGAS... need adjustment on FCU due to difference in density, but does not run rough for that at max power it gives fuel whatever.

Maintenance intervals are reduced and there is a maximum of hours you can run the engines with, Boost pumps have to be operative and altitude below 20000 ft... Need a double check on this , that was some odd years ago :-)

[basil faulty]

No way, the guys at Biggin are brilliant, they know the difference between a piston and a jet, some of those Fuellers have been there for as long as I have been alive, they would have also known the Captain very well so be sensitive, please.

[pilotbear]

You have no more idea about that than the person actually speculating about the possible fuel error so lets cut out the 'sensitive' bit eh?
I want to know why it crashed. It is a very widely used aircraft and if it is discovered after all the speculation and investigation that there is a person at fault not the aircraft then so be it.

[forget]

Steady on pilotbear! Read what's been written - or check out the aircraft Manuals. It wouldn't have mattered if it had been fuelled with Avgas. Understand?