Decided to do the unthinkable...

[antic81]

Afternoon again Chaps,

Well recently I asked for some help removing Norton and installing AVG, I did this because my PC was running like a dog.
After doing the complete uninstall, thanks to more help from you guys...and girls, it seems that alas, all is still not well with the old girl.
So today I decided the hell with it, lets just reformat and start again...lots of stuff will be lost, but at the moment it is running so badly that I cant use half the applications anyway, for example it takes Firefox about twenty to thirty seconds to open...never used to, my 2gb of ram used to have it open just milli seconds after the double click of the mouse.
I have also noticed that when I play my music it distorts and seems to slow down.
So today I bought a fancy external HD (Seagate 750 GB),never used one before, but I think I am getting the hang of it,I have coppied my music and my pictures across...some applications, although not sure how well these will work, as I think the licences are probably burried somewhere deep inside my C drive...

So er...any advice on how these things work, I mean I plan on just sticking the boot disk in and saying yes when prompted and then letting windows update intself online, well as soon as I re-install the internet drivers...I have a feeling this could take a while!


Not sure what I posting this for...just keeping everyone up to date on just how sad my life is...so that you can feel better about yours!

Wish me Luck!

Ant

[antic81]

Ok so its not actually going to well so far...

Quick question...how does one go about reformatting the disc?
I use Windows XP, tried doing it through windows, but it kept saying that the disk is in use so windows cannot reformat.

Is there another way?

Cheers

Ant

[Saab Dastard]

You have to boot off the XP install CD ROM.

SD

[Spitoon]

Boot from the Windows installation disk (you may need to tell the BIOS to boot from the CD drive before the HDD) and you will get the option during the installation process.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

All this unnecessary angst about anti-virus software ...

Look, all you need to do is:

(1) Refrain from downloading any viruses.

(2) Then refrain from installing them.

(3) Then refrain from running them.

Easy. Problem solved. And you don't need any anti-virus software, which by the very nature of what its trying to do is difficult (to make work properly in a changing environment) and expensive (in CPU cycles and other resources).

(That's assuming you don't want to visit porn and warez web sites and/or receive emails from the same. If you do insist on such activities then, sure, you've got a bit of a problem.)

[Saab Dastard]

Well, that's one view.

Agree with:

(1) Refrain from downloading any viruses.

(2) Then refrain from installing them.

(3) Then refrain from running them.

But for the ones that slip through, there's AV. Like the MS disks that shipped with viruses, or the file from your best mate, or what your kids brought home, or the moment of aberration etc.

What you can do to mitigate 2) is to only log in as a User, not an Admin, unless it is necessary for the specific task - and there's always Run As.

SD

[Gertrude the Wombat]

or what your kids brought home
Kids are dealt with as follows:

Each time they catch something nasty, their machine is physically disconnected from my network, and hence the internet, until I "get round to" cleaning it up.

Each time they catch something it takes me twice as long to "get round to" cleaning it up. They know this.

It was a fortnight last time, so it's a month next time ... but the last time was several years ago now so the threat of no internet for a month seems to have made them sufficiently careful!

[S'land]

Last year my company decided to reinstall Windows XP on all of the PC's working with the server (stupid really as the problem was with the server not the PC's). You cannot reformat with XP as you could with earlier Windows versions (formatC:). The installation disc does it for you when you install. Takes forever on older machines.

Regardng not downloading viruses etc., you don't have to visit porn sites to get the blighters try to get on your machine. The year before last I had a hard disk crash on my lap top that necessitated a return to Maxdata for a new HD. When it came back, with XP pre-installed, I needed to download the Avira AV programme so logged onto the internet. Within two minutes malware had got into my system. A bit embarrassing really as I was trying to download one of my securit programmes.:(

[Shunter]

If your company went round and manually installed Windoze on every machine the IT staff should immediately be fired.

There's this wonderful technology known as 'imaging'. Install 1 PC, get it setup how you like it, strip it of its personality using sysprep then deploy to all machines in a matter of minutes. Type in computer name, done.

I can wipe and re-image hundreds of machines without even leaving my desk. The last time any of my lot went round manually installing machines was in 1998, and they were behind the times even then!

[S'land]

Shunter:

We do not have an IT department as we are too small. We did have an IT consultancy who were supposed to know about these things and said it must be done manually (by me). As the problem was not wit the PC's but with the new server they had sold us we decided that it would be better to chand IT consultants. It worked - the server works well now.

[mixture]

What you can do to mitigate 2) is to only log in as a User, not an Admin, unless it is necessary for the specific task - and there's always Run As.


Not enough people do this ....

Don't be a lazy computer user ! 99.999999% of viruses need admin rights to infect and propagate ... just like fire needs oxygen .... remove the fuel and you're much safer (please, no smart alec replies about oxigen removal, you know the point I was trying to get accross :cool:)

The view of Gertrude the Wombat, however, about living without AV software, is just asking for trouble. Especially given free/low cost AV software is available.

Look, everyone knows that Norton is slow and memory hungry. Use something else (such as Kaspersky, F-Secure or similar) ... and all should be well.

Just my 2p worth.

[DouglasDigby]

Don't forget other free options - Avast or AVG.

[antic81]

Hi all,

Interesting that the question of virus's has come up...I don't know, but it may be a virus, actually i am hoping it is, all i need now is to go through all this and then have a clean disk that still runs terribly slow!

I was called away on urgent business last night so I will have to do it today...whilst nursing a slight hangover.

The problem with single Malt whiskey is it just tastes so damn good!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The year before last I had a hard disk crash on my lap top that necessitated a return to Maxdata for a new HD. When it came back, with XP pre-installed, I needed to download the Avira AV programme so logged onto the internet. Within two minutes malware had got into my system. A bit embarrassing really as I was trying to download one of my securit programmes.
Shouldn't happen to a fully patched up to date system with a stealth mode NAT router between you and the net.

Of course there's a window of opportunity before you download the service packs and patches - which you should of course do before worrying about any AV stuff - but still nothing should get past the stealth mode NAT router (or other hardware firewall of your choice).

If you don't have any sort of hardware firewall to hide behind whilst you download the service packs and patches, download them onto another machine and copy them over by USB stick, or take your machine round to your mate's house where there is a proper router, or do something - don't just plug an out-of-date unpatched machine (running any operating system) unprotected into the net. Even if it has already got AV on it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

99.999999% of viruses need admin rights to infect and propagate
Trouble is so does 99.999999% of useful software, particularly if it was written longer ago than last week. After a couple of weeks trying to get MSCV6, VB6, Quicken 2000, PSP7, a DVD burner, ancient scanjet driver, and a few other things (you get the picture) to run on Win2k3 Server without admin rights I finally gave up and gave myself admin rights.

[antic81]

I am having all kinds of problems now, I cant get the stupid thing to boot from the recovery disk, I have pressed every key on the damn keyboard,mannaged to get into the BIOS, but that was of little help, it just not seem to register that the boot disk is in the drive.
I just keep coming up on the windows start options screen...ie start in safe mode etc.

Any ideas?

[Spitoon]

It sounds like you haven't managed to set the BIOS boot device order correctly yet. If you go into the BIOS settings one of the top level menus is likely to be 'Boot'. Go to that menu and you'll usually find some way of telling the 'puter the order of where to look for an OS - you want to put CD-ROM (maybe called ATAPI device) higher up the list than your HDD. Then, hopefully, it will let you run the installation process.

Another option is to run setup from the installation CD from Windows - I think this will give you an option to repair an existing installation or to install a 'clean' version. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure I've seen the option.

Last option. If you have access to some old installation disks (c Win 98), create a bootable floppy and copy fdisk.com (from the installation disk) on to it. Boot from the floppy - again you may need to change the boot device order in the BIOS - and run fdisk. This will let you partition the HDD and works at a lower level than the OS. It's usually my fallback when Windows won't let go..... One caveat - you will lose everything on the HDD so before doing it make sure you have copied everything you want to keep onto your external HDD first.

Drop me a PM if you get to the last option but don't have any old installation disks or if you get stumped in some other way and I'll see if I can help any more.

[Saab Dastard]

As spitoon says, the PC must be told to boot off a CD if present. The other thing is to confirm that the CD is actually bootable!

Is the recovery disk meant to be bootable? Is it a proper OEM installation disk? Have you got the license key for it?

SD

[antic81]

Hi Saab,

The disk is a recovery disk only...tried everything now, at the point of giving up!
I have an idea, let me know what you think, I will go and buy a copy of Windows XP Home, if I stick that disk in at start up, will it basically do the same thing, ie wipe everything and do a fresh install?
My other option is to buy a new internal hard drive and make a fresh install of windows on there, although, not too sure how easy that is?

Thanks for all the help Spitoon, no luck with any of it though!:{

And to think I thought this would be easy!

Ant

[Saab Dastard]

I have an idea, let me know what you think, I will go and buy a copy of Windows XP Home, if I stick that disk in at start up, will it basically do the same thing, ie wipe everything and do a fresh install?
My other option is to buy a new internal hard drive and make a fresh install of windows on there, although, not too sure how easy that is?

Yes, a new copy of XP will do the trick. Make sure that you download all the drivers for your PC from the relevant website while you still can. Put them on a CD if possible, as well as a USB stick.

If you get a new disk, you should be able to have both the new and the existing disks installed. If you install the new disk as the system disk, you can leave everything intact on the original - easy to pull your data off. But be careful not to pull any viruses / malware off at the same time!

Adding a 2nd HDD isn't a big deal - easier than you might think. Lot's of guides on the internet.

What does the user manual say about recovery? How are you meant to use the recovery disk? Is there a recovery option at boot? Have you got access to the manual to find out? If you haven't got one can you find one on t'internet?

SD

[mixture]

Shouldn't happen to a fully patched up to date system with a stealth mode NAT router between you and the net.

Of course there's a window of opportunity before you download the service packs and patches - which you should of course do before worrying about any AV stuff - but still nothing should get past the stealth mode NAT router (or other hardware firewall of your choice).



What a load of old nonsense.

Rule 1 of computer security : Security by obscurity is not security.

NAT was not designed for security. NAT was designed to provide a way to reduce the number of IP addresses that have to be allocated to users.

Lots of ways for things to get past NAT. One of the simplest examples is the human sitting behind the computer :cool:

[antic81]

Ok...now just trying to locate a place that actually stocks Windows XP!
Couple of places have it online and for a good price, around £55 or so, one thing I am noticing is there seems to be a huge price difference for something tha looks the same to me, ie Windows XP Home SP2, it starts at 55 and goes all the way to over £160, no idea what the difference why and what the difference is!
Problem with buying online is delivery, I am not at home all day and most places will only deliver to the card holders address for first orders.

What drivers will I need to download for the PC?
I have put a set of my sound drivers on my fancy new external HD, as far as the graphics go I can sort that out on the fresh copy of windows, anything else that I need?

I hope that after all this it works!

Ant

[antic81]

Right so I popped up to the high-street to see how much they were selling XP home for...looks like I will be buying online after all!
£185 for the pleasure of being able to walk out with it in my hand, no chance!
I guess I will just buy it online, where it comes to around £60 (including posting, next day before noon delivery)

My only question is, am I missing something, surely that can't be right?
The online versions are OEM's, but other than that I can't see the slightest difference!

[Saab Dastard]

I suggest that you check MS website for how XP is licensed, what the versions are and how you qualify for OEM, upgrade etc.

Caveat Emptor.

As a service for all, here's the gen straight from MS:

Important Restrictions on Pre-Installed Software

Buying pre-installed licences is a cost-effective way of acquiring software, particularly when you’re replacing hardware at the same time. But like buying an airline ticket, there are some important terms and conditions you need to be aware of before making your choice.

Transferring Desktop Operating System Licences on Pre-installed Software

Desktop Operating System software (such as Windows Vista and XP) that is pre-installed on PCs cannot be transferred; which means it lives and dies with the ‘machine’ it was installed on, unless repaired under warranty. We define the ‘machine’ as the motherboard.

Buying Software Designed for Pre-installation without a PC

Before it is installed onto a PC, software designed for pre-installation is known as OEM system builder software. You may see OEM system builder software for sale that is not pre-installed on PCs.

This usually comes in a pack and is referred to as an OEM system builder pack. This is only intended to be sold to manufacturers or system builders* who are building machines for their customers; end users should not buy OEM system builder software.

Once you open an OEM system builder pack, you are responsible for the ongoing technical support** of that software; the rationale behind this is that if you are opening these OEM system builder licence packs you will be a system builder and it is appropriate for you to be providing support.

*A system builder is defined as an Original Equipment Manufacturer, an assembler, refurbisher, or pre-installer of software on computer systems.

**This effectively means that the person/organisation that opens the OEM system builder licensing pack is responsible for resolving any issue with that software.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about Pre-Installed Software (also Known as OEM System Builder Software)

Q : Does buying pre-installed software give me a full copy of Windows?

A : Yes, purchasing pre-installed software does give you a full copy of Windows.

NB: A Volume Licensing agreement only offers Operating System upgrades; this means that your agreement doesn’t give you the right install a Windows Operating System on any newly-purchased PCs, only to upgrade machines already covered under your agreement.

Q : Can I transfer my pre-installed Windows software to my new PC?

A : No. Pre-installed software lives and dies on the PC that it is installed on.

Q : Can I upgrade the software that was pre-installed on my PC when I bought it with boxed software from a shop (called Full Packaged Product)?

A : Yes

Q : I have bought a PC with Microsoft Office pre-installed. Can I downgrade this to a previous version of Microsoft Office?

A : No. Pre-installed Microsoft Office does not have downgrade rights.

Q : I have purchased Microsoft Office pre-installed on my PC. Can I install a second copy on my laptop?

A : No. Pre-installed Microsoft Office is tied to the original PC and does not have portable use rights. These are only available when you buy boxed software from a shop (called Full Packaged Product) or through Volume Licensing.

Q : Can I install my pre-installed Microsoft Windows on more than one PC?

A : No. Windows is licensed per hardware device. This means one licence is required for each device that it is installed on.

Buying a FPP gives you the right to transfer the software to another PC, and also to MS product support (although I do not know how worthwhile the latter is).

Basically, you will not be able to re-activate your OEM software on a replacement PC. OEM is a one-shot deal. You should still be able to re-install it on the PC that it was originally installed on.

SD

[mixture]

Basically, you will not be able to re-activate your OEM software on a replacement PC. OEM is a one-shot deal. You should still be able to re-install it on the PC that it was originally installed on.


Saab .... it goes further than that, much further.

Microsoft make it clear that OEM software has to be pre-installed. Therefore unless the poster works for an IT company, he/she will be acting illegally from the word go simply by virtue of installing the software themselves. It is also against Microsoft license terms for resellers to market OEM as independently purchasable. OEM must be bundled, always !!! Therefore it is probably also in breach of license terms for a private individual or company to buy OEM and install it on any old PC.

There's nothing stopping you from re-installing (subject to licensing) OEM software, but the first install must be a pre-install by the vendor.

Other than that, as Saab says .... OEM lives and dies with the computer. And with Microsoft's current fancy for mandatory activation, I very much doubt you'll be able to find a way around it.

There is a reason OEM is so cheap .... it's because of the very, very strict licensing terms.

One side benefit of FPP is that you get to install it on PC and laptop for use by the licensee (no simultaneous usage though !).

Ref:
Microsoft OEM License Terms
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicense/default.mspx

Clauses 4,5,6 are particularly relevant. Note also clause 8.

[mixture]

Gertrude The Wombat ...

Re: Admin Rights

RunAs Pro : http://www.mast-computer.com/c_9-l_en.html (http://www.mast-computer.com/c_9-l_en.html)

Oh, and by the way, what are you doing installing this lot of desktop software :
MSCV6, VB6, Quicken 2000, PSP7, a DVD burner, ancient scanjet driver

On a server ? Surely you don't use Win Server as your desktop ?

[antic81]

Hang on a second...

So what you're telling me is that it is not going to work and I have just wasted my money?

All I want to do is clean up my HD and have it working fresh install of windows!

Should I cancel my order???

[antic81]

Actually I have just re-read Saab's post, as far as I can see I am happy with that, I did build this system myself, ok I moved the HD from the original machine that was bought from PC World with windows pre-installed, I cant remember how I did it, but I registered again over the phone and it worked...for a good two years, now I want to re-install, the restore disks don't work, probably because it is no longer the original machine, fine, no problem, so all I want to know is, when I stick the new disk in, will it allow a fresh copy to be installed over the existing one, therefore cleaning the HD and having a fresh install, I suspect that I will only find this out on trying it.
If not that was an expensive mistake, to be honest the sites are not exactly clear on what OEM's are, you just type in Windows XP Home and it gives you that option.

[Saab Dastard]

Yes, it is perfectly acceptable to buy OEM software.

You are required to register as a System Builder with MS - anyone can do so, and it's free. You can install OEM software on both new and refurbished computers. The only other requirement is to install the software using the OEM Preinstallation Kit.

SD

[mixture]

to be honest the sites are not exactly clear on what OEM's are, you just type in Windows XP Home and it gives you that option.

Therein lies the problem ....

As Saab quite rightly pointed out, you can buy it ....

Problem is your average Joe Bloggs is unlikely to be buying it for the correct reason as far as licensing goes. :=

That's the point I was trying to get accross, watch the licensing. Microsoft do view "mischanneling" as piracy.

Hope that helps clarify.

[Saab Dastard]

Problem is your average Joe Bloggs is unlikely to be buying it for the correct reason as far as licensing goes.

Mixture, I think we are on the same wavelength here - what is feasible and what is legal do not necessarily overlap!

MS does seem to recognise that Joe Bloggs can and does build his own PC, and is reluctantly admitting that that qualifies as an OEM install. I guess they figure they are better off with the revenue from an OEM license than no revenue at all. After all, a lot of technically competent bods might otherwise jump to Linux! :8

That's just my opinion, based on what I have read about the topic.

SD

[antic81]

Saab,

Er...just wondering, where do I get an OEM pre-installation Kit?
And are we saying that there is more to installing the software than just popping the disk into the drive and following the screen prompts?

What have I gotten myself into??:{

[Saab Dastard]

Legally, you have to sign up with MS to become a System Builder in order to use an OEM license. This can be done online, on the MS website using a .Net Passport, which you simply register for. You can then download the OPK. You should then install the OEM XP using the OPK.

It is very probably technically possible to simply put the CD in the drive and install XP from there but, legally, you should follow the MS requirements.

Whether you do or not is up to you and your conscience. If it works, and passes validation OK, then it is very unlikely that anyone is going to investigate further. Never having gone down this route, I cannot say what the outcome will be.

SD

[mixture]

I guess they figure they are better off with the revenue from an OEM license than no revenue at all

:ok:

I think overall there does need to be a better push by Microsoft to clarify to Joe Bloggs in plain english what OEM means. And anyone selling to Joe Bloggs types should really require J.B. to pick up the phone and be told all about OEM software rather than just being able to order it off the website.

But yes, I guess it probably is a case of revenue from mischanneling vs no revenue from pure piracy.

Being a Mac user outside of work, I'm not one to defend Microsoft ...however I do think that the discount given on OEM products in return for stricter licensing terms is a fair one, and that the OEM licensing terms themselves are also pretty fair. I'm all for "home" system builders .... I've built one or two PCs myself, back in the dark ages .... but if licensing terms are abused, you may find Microsoft only making OEM available to branded PC manufacturers ....

I think my 2p worth has now become £2 worth ..... so I'll stop here ! :cool:

Best of luck with your home PC building antic .... great fun ! Wish I still had the time to do that ! :D

[green granite]

When I brought my last but one PC from Eavesham, some 3 years ago it came with XP but I had to finish off the install and register it at home it was supplied with the serial no and I had no problems getting it registered at all.

[P.Pilcher]

The more I read this, the more I am inclined to acquire that book I saw for sale in a famous P.C. retailer entitled "Ubuntu". Microsoft will have to realise, with the complexity and obscurity of their current licensing schmes that there IS competition out there and their attitude is driving more and more of their customers (like me) to seriously consider the alternative. After all, like most domestic customers all I need is an OS which provides me with a protected radio LAN with open access to the other computers on my network.
With trepidation I moved up from Win 95 and 98 SE to XP because of its superior photograph handling facilities. This was a good reason for moving up despite the learning curve. There is no similar reason for moving up again to Vista and we all know what a catastrophe that has become! Unfortunately, getting a new computer without Vista is now becoming extremely difficult and the last time I had a requirement for such, a second hand one with XP on was the only obvious solution.
I assume that my Ubuntu disk, when I finally pluck up the courage to boot it up will enable me to format the hard drive which originally contained a Microsoft product.

P.P.

[Wader2]

Green Granite, dat am true BUT you will possiblyfind that one group of your licence was -oem- or some other code that is recognised as an OEM code.

When you enter this in an online request you are politely refered to the OEM.

[Saab Dastard]

I assume that my Ubuntu disk, when I finally pluck up the courage to boot it up

The Standard Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Xubuntu install disk* allows you to boot into a "virtual" installation, running off the CD, that is not actually written to disk, so that you don't disturb your existing installation - whatever it is - giving you the opportunity to "try" the OS before installing it fully. You can actually access the "Windows" hard disks - even NTFS - which is how a number of useful Linux-based recovery (and Windows password changing) applications work!

You could then do a dual-boot install, assuming that you wanted to go ahead with the installation, which would still leave you the option to go back to Windows. Although NTFS write-access is still a bit iffy under Linux (MS have never released the proprietary NTFS spec. (this may change / have changed recently, not sure).

I bought a 2nd internal hard disk and mounting caddy for my laptop, so that I can swap completely (undo one screw, slide out disk, replace, do up one screw - 1 minute job). This suits me because I just use Kubuntu for learning purposes at this time - I am still firmly anchored to XP for many reasons.

SD

* - Except the Alternative Install image, which is designed for systems with insufficient RAM for the "trial" install.

[green granite]

Wader2 the point I was making was that I wasn't asked about OEM status or owt else when I registered it, I just went on line and it did it.

[mixture]

Unfortunately, getting a new computer without Vista is now becoming extremely difficult and the last time I had a requirement for such, a second hand one with XP on was the only obvious solution.

I believe HP make machines that you can downgrade to XP out of the box.

Also, I know I promised not to talk about licensing again :cool: ... but .... Microsoft give downgrade rights to XP from Vista Business. You have to provide your own CD and legal license key from a copy of XP licensed to you (e.g. on your old PC). But this can only be done with Vista Business and not Home, Ultimate, whatever....

Of course, unless you buy one of the HP type boxes mentioned above, if downgrading from VB on any other machine, you will need to make sure XP drivers are available .... otherwise you will be doing this ... ==> :ugh:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Surely you don't use Win Server as your desktop ?
Yes, everybody says that. But I can't justify an extra box (mostly because there's nowhere to put it).

[Saab Dastard]

But this can only be done with Vista Business and not Home, Ultimate,

Actually, Vista Ultimate does give you downgrade rights - but it's the only home version that does.

See here. (http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/f/4/5f4c83d3-833e-4f11-8cbd-699b0c164182/royaltyoemreferencesheet.pdf)

SD

[mixture]

Vista Ultimate

Well, for the amount you pay for Ultimate I would certainly hope so !

In my defense, I don't think this was a day one policy .... believe it's revised policy following a bit of pressure. :cool:

[green granite]

There is now talk of Microsoft bringing Windows 7 release forward to next year. Which means it will probably mean another semi broken system.

[P.Pilcher]

To quote the students I used to teach at a famous aviation academy in Riyadh in the early 80'S: "Wot de benefit?"

I can visualise Microsoft bringing out a new incompatible operating system every year, expecting us to learn how to use it and of course to swell their coffers - I don't think!

P.P.

[Albert Square]

Well I have built a few PC's and just buy a OEM copy of Windows along with the other components. No problem installing at all. The thing is, as I understand, the supplier will not sell OEM by itself, only along with major system coponents to show you are building a PC. But, I have read that if you buy a floppy drive (£5) along with a OEM disc, this can be enough to qualify!

[antic81]

Albert,

Well the online site I purchased from did not ask any questions!
Still have not actually done the install yet, I have saved my graphics drivers and sound drivers to the external hard drive, is there anything else?
Do I have to find motherboard drivers as well, just that I have never downloaded them before?

Ant

[antic81]

Actually I am now a little stuck, heres what I have done, I stuck the new cd in and all seemed to be going well, entered the product key, no problems, only problem is it does not seem to want to let me overwrite the old version of XP, instead in the set up in is only giving me the option to load the new xp on a partition...anyone know how to make it completely overwrite the old version?
Or if not how can I just re-format the disk so that the old version is wiped off?

Thanks for any help, sorry about the continual pestering!

Anthony

[antic81]

Aaaaaand I broke it!:{

Windows didn't seem to be installing fresh, it was just doing a repair on the older version, I didn't want this, so I kept trying, that turned out to be rather costly, as I have now broken the hard drive!
It just freezes on the motherboard splash screen at the start up, this has forced me into purchasing yet more hardware for the PC,a new Seagate HD, internal one this time.
I hate :mad:computers!!