CTC ramps up training at NZHN - More overcrowding?

[Sqwark2000]

Sounds like HN's busy airspace will just get busier, doe's anyone else have a problem with the current 2 frequency system in place at NZHN??


City flight training operation wins new contract
By CHRIS GARDNER - Waikato Times | Wednesday, 26 March 2008


A Hamilton pilot training operation is expecting to be busier after winning a three-year contract to provide Boeing 737-400 training for Vietnamese pilots.


CTC Aviation New Zealand, based at Boyd Rd, at Hamilton Airport, will benefit after its UK parent company, the CTC Aviation Group, was given Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam approval to train Vietnamese pilots employed by the expanding Pacific Airlines in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.

CTC Aviation New Zealand chief executive John Jones said the Hamilton crew training centre would see an increase in training activity as a result of the partnership.

"Our crew training centre in Hamilton currently trains around 200 airline pilots a year. We expect to expand this significantly within the next twelve months," Mr Jones said.

The company, which is looking to increase the number of New Zealand pilots it trains tenfold to about 100, has strategic partnerships with 52 airlines around the world. The Hamilton training centre is one of four the company has internationally the other three are in the UK where the first group of Pacific Airlines pilots has already begun training.

As part of the partnership, CTC's Boeing instructor and examiner team was audited and approved by the Vietnamese civil aviation authority and will be actively involved in the training and examining of the new pilots.

Pacific Airlines was formed in 1992. Qantas took a 30 per cent share in the company last year and a rebranding is expected before July.

In the first stage of another new partnership, CTC has sold a Boeing 737 300/400/500 flight simulator to Lithuanian pilot training company flyLALTraining. The simulator is the first of its kind in Lithuania, as only theoretical training was previously offered, and marks the beginning of a partnership which will see the two trainers working closer together.

CTC and flyLAL have signed a framework agreement establishing the terms for future co-operation over the training and supply of flight deck and cabin crew.

According to the agreement, CTC and flyLAL will identify areas of mutual interest and develop co-operative programmes for the supply of pilots and cabin crew, as well as the delivery of training courses, to airlines within Europe and Russia.

[devolved]

already fun times trying to get the Bay sector & WP ILS. :P

Sometimes it doesnt help that they also do ATC training in HN tower.

[Blue Line]

2 frequencies & more traffic in and around the circuit, so glad I don't go into hamilton.......... Oh wait I do :sad:

[Got the horn]

I wonder where they plan on getting instructors from.....

[komac2]

Probably the CPP?

[slackie]

Yipeee Kai Yay!!

[conflict alert]

Time to be pro active rather than re active????????

[slackie]

Sometimes it doesnt help that they also do ATC training in HN tower
It certainly doesn't help that you do FLYING training at HN!!! We've got to train controllers somewhere!!! Pilots just need to give the same consideration to ATC training as we do to flight training...and get used to it, we're gunna be training for the forseeable future.

[LocoDriver]

In reply to Squawk 2000, Ardmore had a two frequency system,and it worked well.(until the tower was dis-established)
We used 118.1 for taxi instructions and joining instructions,
and 120.1 for circuits.
No problems., in fact, very good.

I wonder if CTC will help fund an extra controller for the bay sector????
the booking system is going to be busy!

:E:E

[27/09]

Two Frequencies

The current system is a mismatch, two frequencies for airborne traffic in the control zone - aircraft on separate frequencies unaware of whats happening on the other frequency - doesn't make for good situational awareness.

Sure have two frequencies, one for initial contact and delivery of departure/arrival instructions either prior to taxy or prior to zone entry and one frequency for all airborne traffic in the zone.

It's always a lottery as to what frequency to preselect on the Com prior to joining as the ATIS doesn't ever mention wether or not two frequencies are in use. They do it at PM and even AA states when to use 118.7 for Tower, Ground and Delivery.

ATC Training/Flight training

Fair call Slackie, BUT there is one major point of difference, the main business of flying schools and aero clubs is to train pilots - the main business of ATC is to control air traffic flow not train controllers.

CTC's Expansion

I would have thought that any increases that will result from CTC's expansion plans will result in wailing and gnashing of teeth in certain offices.

[Sqwark2000]

n reply to Squawk 2000, Ardmore had a two frequency system,and it worked well.(until the tower was dis-established)
We used 118.1 for taxi instructions and joining instructions,
and 120.1 for circuits.
No problems., in fact, very good.


Loco,

Am well familiar with the good old Ardmore days, I did all my training and initial instructing there from 89-98. From memory, you requested joining instructions prior to entering the zone and on entering the zone you were changed to the tower freq. In hamilton you can be well within the zone and be operating on different freq's to aircraft that are not that far away at all. And there appears to be no set freq designation, just appears to be what ever freq is the flavour of the day or ATCO shift i.e. somedays you are initally on 125.9 prior to changing to 122.9 for the circuit, other days it's vice versa. Some days you can arrive in the circuit on 122.9 and therefore use 125.9 for your next airways clearance only to be told to change back to 122.9 for start and clearance. And just when you think you got it sorted, they operate one freq for all purposes.

It's just a wee bit dodgy is all I'm saying and wondering if something more solid and maybe published procedure is in place before CTC add to the already crowded environment

Having said that heard some ATCO's (particuarly a female one) do a great job working an all purpose single freq.


Am wondering if CTC had come to NZ a few years earlier or Airways had delayed the closure of AR Tower by the same, whether AR would still be controlled and CTC the main training organisation there, as they only left AR because of the JAR requirement for CPL students to train from a Controlled aerodrome.

[NZScion]

Why can the freqs not be used in a fashion that makes sense? At CH for example, there are seperate delivery, ground and tower freqs. Call delivery/ground for anything that is away from the runway, or call tower if airborne or looking to enter a runway. That way ATC manages the load nicely. You could even make it that you call delivery prior to entering the zone...

[slackie]

27/09
Two Freqs...wrong...that was over 18 months ago when that was the case. Now all aircraft airborne in the CTR are on the same freq. There is no "lottery"...follow the AIP...first contact is ALWAYS 122.9 and you get changed to 125.9 IF the second tower position is open (most days between 9:45am and 4:45pm). The only exception is inbound IFR aircraft who will get the correct frequency change instructions from BAY.

ATC Training Just where do you think we get controllers?? They don't grow on trees!! And they don't stick around for ever...we will always have a need to train controllers...even controllers with previous experience need to be validated/trained at their new location.

Sqwark2000 You are also incorrect!! 122.9 is either the single freq (when only one controller is on watch), or it becomes the "first contact" frequency when we are operating 2 positions. 125.9 is only ever a frequency used for ALL traffic either airborne in the CTR or taxiing on the ground (once the aircraft has received clearance and taxi instructions on 122.9)...

In short...
First contact with HN Twr is 122.9 unless specifically instructed by CH Control (e.g. inbound IFR).
The only time you change freq is when instructed by ATC or as contained in the departure procedures.
Why is that difficult to understand??? It is pretty clear in the AIP!!

All traffic in the CTR will be on the same frequency (either 122.9 or 125.9) unless there is a good operational reason not to be...of which I can think of a couple...but they are not very common.


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[slackie]

Komac
Your "pure speculation" is just that pure speculation...and incorrect.

The extra frequency allows transmissions to be removed from the primary Aerodrome Control frequency, and allows the Aerodrome Controller to concentrate on controlling traffic in the control zone without having the distraction of issuing IFR & VFR clearances to aircraft on the ground or airborne outside of the control zone.

The current procedures didn't happen overnight...and are the product of extensive customer consultation, trial, and amendment. Those of us that use them day-in-day-out find that they work pretty well, and allow us to move a large amount of traffic...more than any other tower in the country that deals with (primarily) IFR/VFR training traffic and IFR RPT operations. I believe we are the 2nd busiest tower overall and we do that between the hours of 6am and 8pm, wereas the busier tower (and the other 2 INTL towers) are 24/7!!

[ops.normal]

CTC need to work on instructor retention, particularly meir instructors. The JAR requirements are so extensive that none of the instructors are getting close to a 'useful' return of service (in the company's view) before they rightly disappear to Eagle or Nelson...can't see it getting better in the medium term either...

[Hanz Blix]

Slackie

Sorry, what you think is happening is not always the case!

I've operated in and out of hams for about a decade and was witness to the intro of the two freqs. Now I have alot of time for the controllers in hams but this 2 freq thing is an accident waiting to happen. IFR flights don't always change to just the single freq when inbound and infact only a few weeks ago we got 122.9 then at 5nm changed to 125.9 (not ideal)

A simple system like putting which freq is in use on the ATIS would be nice and save some confusion and also give the pilots of inbound/outbound flights a heads up to what is going on.:=

Lets not get started on trainees (they are exactly that and need to learn) However it would be nice if airways once again insisted on some flight training for these newbees. Alot just don't have a clue about what aircraft can and can't do or traffic priority. :ugh:

[27/09]

I think Hans just proved my point about how the two frequencies don't work as well as they could..

The current procedures didn't happen overnight...and are the product of extensive customer consultation, trial, and amendment.

There wasn't much customer consultation right at the start, this only came after complaints about how things were working. Yes it is much better now but could be better still.

There needs to be mention on th ATIS about when there is two frequencies in operation. Many IFR operators like to have the next frequency ready on the standby ready to change when told to by Bay. This is the lottery I was referring to - which freq to dial up on standby.

With reference to training, I think you missed my point Slackie. If I take my car to the garage I don't expect excuses from them about the quality of work because they had the trainee on the job. ATC's job is to provide a service, that service is affected when there is ATC training in progress. I think that was the point that an earlier poster was trying to make.

Hans makes another good point about the lack of understanding about what an aircraft can or cannot do.

[slackie]

27/09 & Hans
There is the odd occasion when BAY don't change the inbound IFR to the correct freq (everyone makes mistakes!) but in the vast majority of times the correct change instructions are given. Without knowing the exact case I can't really comment further, but it sounds like an oversight somewhere...did you query why you were still with CH Ctl on 5nm at the time or were you "happy" to continue on in??:confused:

There wasn't much consultation at the start
I beg to differ...we consulted from the outset (once we heard that CTC were coming)...the VFR Procedures were initially introduced as a trial in conjunction with local users meeting...local users (including some AR users) were then invited to critique...they were then promulgated..."bedded in" for a period...then critiqued again...Airways then conducted a Operational Review that again interviewed all local operators...amendments were then trialled again before again being critiqued by local operators...and we now we have what we have....so which part of this did you miss out on?????
I'd like to reiterate that this is still a movable feast...if we can further tweak the procedures then we will.

Training
And I think you missed my point with training...we can't all be up to speed from the first time we sit "on position"...did you successfully land your aircraft at the first try?? Did you learn to fly your aircraft by watching your instructor or did you learn by doing (and making mistakes)?? How exactly do you propose that we train controllers without using live traffic at some point??

Totally agree with the idea of getting controllers more piloting experience...as an instructor (and pilot) myself it is plainly obvious which trainees have past experience and which don't...having said that I've seen more than one trainee with a CPL not be able to transfer that knowledge to controlling!

Yes it is much better now but could be better still.Do tell!! We have always been open to suggestions, and still are, but when actually asked what needs changing most go silent!! The stage is yours (and I take your suggestion re the ATIS)....

[27/09]

Slackie

My recollection was that there was very minimal consultation to start with, in fact it seemed a case of "We'll do it our way" from Airways. However there has certainly been a lot of discussion since then, some very robust and productive. Perhaps my memory is flawed and since you are closer to the action I'll take your word on the consultation.

How exactly do you propose that we train controllers without using live traffic at some point??

I think the point being made is this "Is HN the best place for this to take place for new controllers?"

I'll look forward to hearing the frequency status on the ATIS. :)

[slackie]

In the beginning...
Without knowing what "camp" you're in I can't really comment, but I know what we did in the beginning...we studied the existing traffic patterns and (with our ATS Ops chaps) attempted to formulate procedures to cope with the forecast increase in traffic, using a mix of current and past procedures from places like AR TG and CH...and then put our procedures to the local operators in the context of "what do you think?"...the locals replied "Let's give it a try" and it went on from there as described earlier...can't think of another way of doing it...but again happy to listen to other suggestions.

"Is HN the best place for this to take place for new controllers?"
I think Hamilton is an excellent place for trainees...there is pretty constant and diverse traffic...it's not "rocket science" - it's just a bit busy...but that is better than somewhere like Rotovegas or NV were there is very little traffic, or OH where the type of control is "different".

It is, however, very difficult for the OJTIs (On The Job Instructors)...exactly how much rope does one give the trainee?? How much delay "due training" is acceptable (and don't say, "None!")?? When should the OJTI take over?? etc...pretty similar questions a flying instructor asks!

[XRNZAF]

Slight drift off topic here, but I am reminded of an incident recently that was a bit of a giggle.

Was on a cross country training flight which included a brief stop and refuel in HN. Despite a fair bit of traffic around and with a trainee controller on watch, after a brief hold at te rapa we were cleared to join number three behind a twin star (full stop on the seal due wake turb) and a 172 with a solo student from a training establishment that shall remain anonymous (full stop on the parallel grass).

We were then instructed to follow the 172 onto the grass. Which we duly did....

Everything seemed to be going to plan, the twin star landed safely on the seal, and we were sequenced nicely behind the student in the 172 going for the grass. It wasn't until we turned final we noticed the 172 ahead of us had spotted the big shiny PAPI's and figured they were actually for marking the threshold of the grass runway and had lined himself up nicely on those and promptly landed dead set in between the sealed and grass runways and stopped. At this point the supervising controller took over and asked the 172 pilot to stay put (laughter was audible in the background from everyone inside the tower) and we landed safely beside the other two aircraft on the actual grass runway.

I think a pretty good illustration that a trainee pilot can cause just as many head-aches for controllers as trainee controllers can for pilots when both are under a heavy workload. Despite what could have developed into a very serious mess, everyone stayed calm and retained their "sense of ha ha" and all ended well. Panic and raised voices would have achieved nothing.

I have always found ATC at HN to be very accomodating even when under a heavy work load, would be nice if some (not all) of their colleagues in AA would take a leaf out of their book from time to time.:ugh:

XRNZAF

[slackie]

If I had $1 for every....oh never mind! You gotta laugh or else you cry!!
:cool::}:D;)

[Hanz Blix]

Slackie

Bay are guilty of alot of things but not on that occasion. I'm saying we were changed to HN twr only to be changed again by the controller to another at 5nm. This has happened more than once, given not as much now as it use to. Believe me there wouldn't be to many crews who wouldn't prompt at 10nm so I can assure you the way you read my statement is wrong:ok:

Controllers need to be trained and perhaps hams is a good place for it (not my place to argue where is and isn't) but they really need to have a good knowledge of aircraft capabilities before been thrown in the chair. This is a problem which Airways need to look at and perhaps drum into trainees before they come out of the school and go into towers. (20 tonne aircraft can not go from 245kias to min approach in 5 nm):confused:

sorry editing for spelling

[slackie]

Yeh...that was the modus operandi before we shifted to the single freq in the CTR last year sometime...if it happened recently it MAY have been when the extra position wwas being opened or closed...we usually try to organise it in relatively low traffic periods when it will effect the least amount of traffic...maybe in this instance the controllers just needed to open/close the extra position and you just happened to be caught in the middle??? Again hard to comment unless I knew all the facts...let's just hope your comment not as much as it used to means that it was an exception rather than the current rule!!

Couldn't agree more with the reduced aircraft knowledge stuff.

[flyby_kiwi]

What are the problems with having GA circuit traffic operate in a circut west of the runway and the scheduled and twin traffic operate in a circuit on the eastern side rather than using the crossing grass? I dont have to sperate them myself but would have thought the guys and girls upstairs would find it easier?

[philipnz]

Hey kinda off topic, kinda

A few weeks back my band was playing at a beach resort in NZ and three English CTC guys turned up with nowhere to stay. I put them up at my place for the night. Funnily enough my guitarist has a PPL and i've almost finished training for a microlight license so we ended up talking for ages after and in the morning. My only lesson to go is flying into a controlled airfield which i'm doing at hamilton tomorrow then i'll be doing my revision and flight test within the next few days

Anyway........ in case those guys read this, my band is playing in hamilton at fatbellies saturday night and it would be great to catch up again. If they or anyone that knows them reads this please give them a heads up

www.agent99band.co.nz (http://www.agent99band.co.nz)

philip

[Healey 3000]

I personally have never really had any problems with the '2 frequency' issues mentioned here. (Generally it's a case of just follwing the prescribed procedures in the AIP'S, or just following hand-over instructions?)

And I can honestly say, without bias, that the HN ATCO's are extremely efficient and helpful, and have had no problems dealing with them. They seem to cope well with the busy periods at least! I reckon one of the best, if not the best regional towers to deal with.

H3000

[27/09]

What are the problems with having GA circuit traffic operate in a circut west of the runway and the scheduled and twin traffic operate in a circuit on the eastern side rather than using the crossing grass?

The crossing grass is more into the prevailing wind and therefore is much more usefull for light aircraft circuit training than the parrallel grass.

Do tell!! We have always been open to suggestions, and still are, but when actually asked what needs changing most go silent!! The stage is yours

slackie

My 2 cents worth for improving things are to have one airborne frequency and have the frequency status on th ATIS. You say that single airborne frequency has happened, I wasn't aware of that, I usually operate into Hamilton IFR so probably wouldn't notice the change. If the ASTIS thing can be done, then I think it will be about as good as it can get.

[komac2]

I wonder where they plan on getting instructors from.....


Flight Instructor
CTC Aviation Group was established in the early 1990's to provide training and management services to the highest airline industry standards. Since April 2005, we opened a brand new, purpose built pilot training and accommodation centre at Hamilton International Airport, New Zealand. With Group Head Office and three further Crew Training Centres in the UK, CTC is an expanding, global operation.

We are confident in the future - both of the commercial aviation industry worldwide and our ability to grow and continue delivering high quality services tailored to the needs of our airline partners around the world.

We currently have great career opportunities available for full time Flight Instructors. In this role you will be responsible for assisting students by providing high quality instruction, preparing tuition material, and reporting in line with our world class training standards.

A minimum of NZCAA 'C' Category Flight Instructor rating and class 1 medical is required, along with excellent communication skills with the ability to liaise with students and management in a dynamic and challenging environment.

A competitive salary is offered alongside training and development opportunities and excellent future career potential.

If you are interested in joining one of the most exciting and innovative flight companies in the world please apply by emailing your CV

http://www.seek.co.nz/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=31&PageNumber=1&JobID=12249901


Ground Instructor
CTC Aviation Group plc was established in the early 1990's to provide training and management services to the highest airline industry standards. In April 2005 we opened a brand new, purpose-built pilot training and accommodation centre at Hamilton International Airport. With Group headquarters and three further Training Centres in the UK, CTC is an expanding, global operation.

We are confident in the future - both of the commercial aviation industry worldwide and our ability to grow and continue delivering high quality services tailored to the needs of our airline partners around the world.

We currently have great career opportunities available for Full Time Ground Instructors. In this role you will be responsible for assisting students by providing high quality tuition, preparing tuition material, and reporting in line with our world class training standards.

Previous experience as a flight instructor and /or operational airline experience are essential. Ideally you will hold exam passes in all NZCAA ATPL theory subjects. Excellent computer skills are required, along with excellent communication skills with the ability to liaise with students and management in a dynamic and challenging environment.

A competitive salary is offered alongside training and development opportunities and excellent career potential.

If you are interested in joining one of the most exciting and innovative flight training companies in the world please apply by emailing your CV

http://www.seek.co.nz/users/apply/index.ascx?Sequence=31&PageNumber=1&JobID=12249901