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bar fly
28th Mar 2008, 16:09
Having a discussion at work at the moment and we were wondering what has been the earliest point any team were mathematically relegated from the Premier League, and who were they?

The reason is that Derby potentially could be gonners this weekend which is pretty damn early...

Any football brains got the answer? :confused:

DAL208
28th Mar 2008, 17:30
Sunderland. 2 years ago.

if not, then probably Swindon in, i think 1995...

ampan
29th Mar 2008, 04:10
One of my objections to the Premier League is that it culls out 140 years of football history - in the country that invented the game!

Let's go back back bit: Didn't Derby County win the whole caboodle in the early-70s? Brian Clough. Charlie George. Baseball Ground (either mud, or frozen mud.) That's where the nostalgia is - and yet the issue seems to be the "Premier League" stats.

You Poms invented modern football. So sort the stats out - like the Yanks do with baseball.

Tigs2
29th Mar 2008, 04:43
ampan
Bar Fly was simply asking a question, he also made it clear that if you don't like the topic, stay out.

ampan
29th Mar 2008, 04:53
But why the question?

DAL208
29th Mar 2008, 09:44
why question the question????

BRL
29th Mar 2008, 12:43
ampan, I don't know why you bother replying. You either answer the question or not.

If not as in your case, why don't you start a new thread knocking the premier league as your post has nothing at all to do with this question and all you football haters can give each other a virtual group hug whilst slating todays game......

Back to the question, how many points did Sunderland go down with and has anyone done it in single figures??

niknak
29th Mar 2008, 14:51
My beloved Norwich nearly achieved it when they went down, but fortunately they were surrounded by at least six teams of equal ineptitude at the time and avoided the humility... (in a fashion).:p

muppetofthenorth
29th Mar 2008, 17:07
Well, they've done it.

To quote the BBC Sports website:
"The Rams are the first team in Premier League history to be relegated in March."

Ouch.

N Joe
29th Mar 2008, 18:44
niknak

When we went down, it was the year that all three relegation spots were decided on the very last day of the season. Couldn't be less relevant to this question!

P.S. We was robbed today!

N Joe

Parapunter
29th Mar 2008, 20:21
Just shows what a lottery the play off system is. Should never have been Derby last year, no matter how proud their history is and it is, they were nowhere near good enough this year - they simply won out on the day.

ampan
30th Mar 2008, 06:34
L #8 and others: Agreed. (I've got a Derby County fixation, probably derived from the commencement of decent First Division coverage on NZ TV.)

I'll go back to pondering my old editions of 'Scorcher & Score'.

Nick Riviera
31st Mar 2008, 11:32
Parapunter

An excellent analysis of the playoff system, about which I fully agree, spoilt only by the fact that Derby finished 3rd (by 8 clear points!) so would have been promoted automatically anyway under the old system.;)

bar fly
31st Mar 2008, 11:51
Thanks for the help chaps.

And as others pointed out, by discussing one period in history doesn't negate all that preceded it.

Ok then, as we seem to have a knowledgable and captive audience in here, what was the earliest point at which a team mathematically won the top league (for you ampan) in English football?

phnuff
31st Mar 2008, 13:03
Listening to the radio on Saturday evening, they remarked that Derby are the first team to be relegated from the Premier League in March. Still, they get a nice £30m parachute payment which could help build the future.

Alloa Akbar
31st Mar 2008, 13:22
I agree, the playoffs are a farce.. whats next, you play all season, get the most points to top your division, then you lose out to the sixth place team in "playoffs" because of injury or suspension??? its poorly thought out and deeply flawed and just a revenue ploy. If anyone thinks the playoffs are fair, please explain to me why after the bottom two, the next four should not be involved in a relegation playoff???

and another thing (Stand by for topical hand grenade..) that offside rule is a load of outdated rubbish, both teams have 11 players.. why complicate it further??:p

phnuff
31st Mar 2008, 15:11
Thinking about it, the whole parachute payment thing is cocked up as well. One of the reasons teams get promoted to the Premier League only to drop back at the end of the first season, is the lack of top quality players in their squads. It would make far more sense to make at least part of the parachute payment available at the start of the season so as to give the opportunity to strengthen the squad before beginning the season.

Anyone agree?

Parapunter
31st Mar 2008, 15:16
The offside rule, refs, linesmen, respect blah blah...

High time we had technology introduced. It's been shown to work in cricket & Rugby, I say let's have it in the premier league & stop whingeing Feguson, whingeing Wenger, whingeing Rafa...I could go on...

ZH875
31st Mar 2008, 16:12
And leg irons for Ronaldo so he can stay on his feet for 90 minutes.

TooLowTerrain
31st Mar 2008, 17:27
I think, the offside rule prevents the strikers from goal hanging and the score line finishing in double figures....:}

DAL208
31st Mar 2008, 18:10
And leg irons for Ronaldo so he can stay on his feet for 90 minutes.



Oh hardy har!!:}

There's always one isnt there! Strange how it's never noticed in the papers the amount of times he gets hacked down by defenders and because of his 'reputation' he doesnt get a freekick.

That boy Ronaldo, makes England look sh*te!

Bravo73
31st Mar 2008, 18:12
Alloa Akbar,

re playoffs. Are you therefore suggesting that there should only be 3 automatic promotion places and 3 automatic relegation places in each league?

PaperTiger
31st Mar 2008, 19:05
I think, the offside rule prevents the strikers from goal hanging and the score line finishing in double figuresErr, yes.

But those responsible for enforcing the rule either misunderstand it or get it patently and pathetically wrong.

My suggestion: add a specific offside line extending the 18-yard box out to the touchline. An attacker may not precede the ball beyond that line, otherwise once within it there can be no offside (yes, I admit it's the NHL blue line rule) and add two more linesmen whose sole job is to call the offsides.

Nick Riviera
1st Apr 2008, 11:48
Bravo

Well I can't speak for Alloa but I would certainly endorse that idea. Worked well for many years.

ZH875
1st Apr 2008, 11:59
Strange how it's never noticed in the papers the amount of times he gets hacked down by defenders and because of his 'reputation' he doesnt get a freekick.

That boy Ronaldo, makes England look sh*te!

He doesn't get hacked down, he dives from 10 feet or maybe he just slips on his own grease!.:E


And for what its worth, he doesn't make England look sh*te, England manage that all by themselves.:p

He may be the leagues top scorer, but anyone can score from three feet offside.:suspect:

Effluent Man
1st Apr 2008, 12:10
The Premier League has only been in existence since 1994,so not that much history to refer to.The lowest points total of any BRITISH team was Stirling Albion in 1954/5,they finished with six points.Of course it was only two points for a win,although whether they won any or if it was six draws I don't know.

ZH875
1st Apr 2008, 12:20
In the hospital the relatives gathered in the waiting room, where their family member lay gravely ill.
Finally, the doctor came in looking tired and somber.
"I'm afraid I'm the bearer of bad news," he said as he surveyed the worried faces.
"The only hope left for your loved one at this time is a brain transplant.
It's an experimental procedure, very risky but it is the only hope
the NHS will cover the procedure, but you will have to pay for the brain yourselves "

The family members sat silent as they absorbed the news After a great length of time, someone asked, "Well, how much does a brain cost?"

The doctor quickly responded, "£5,000 for a Manchester United supporter’s brain, and £200 for a Manchester City supporter’s brain."

Mum, finally unable to control her curiosity, blurted out the question everyone wanted to ask,

"Why is the Manchester United supporter’s brain so much more?"

The doctor smiled at the childish innocence and explained to the entire group, "It's just standard pricing procedure. We have to mark down the price of the Manchester City supporter’s brains, because they've actually been used."

PaperTiger
1st Apr 2008, 16:15
The lowest points total of any BRITISH team was Stirling Albion in 1954/5,they finished with six points.Of course it was only two points for a win,although whether they won any or if it was six draws I don't know.P 30 W 2 D 2 L 26 http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/allg/stirlingalbion1955.htm

Bravo73
1st Apr 2008, 19:15
Bravo

Well I can't speak for Alloa but I would certainly endorse that idea. Worked well for many years.

Not that well though, unfortunately. Let me explain.

In any league, there are realistically 5-6 teams who have got a chance of finishing top and the same number who are likely to finish bottom. That means that for the 'basic' system (ie 3 up/3 down), towards the end of the season, you will only have 10-12 teams with anything to play for. With 24 teams in each of the Football leagues, that means that nearly half the league have realistically nothing to play for for a lot of the season. With the top 6 finishing league positions having some value, this brings a further 6-8 teams into the equation (ie until the final games of the season, any team from 14th place upwards could sneak into the final play-off spot.) This, theoretically, should lead to a more competitive league.

Think of the play-off places as the equivalent to the UEFA Cup spots in the Premiership.

BombayDuck
1st Apr 2008, 19:37
Half Time at the Champions' League quarters and I must say the Italians will come back with many a gold medal at Beijing 2008.

In the diving competition!

Plus the Romans have been doing everything to bump Ronaldo from the ball. And he's still scored - a beauty of a long-jump-cum-high-jump header. :ok:

He may be the leagues top scorer, but anyone can score from three feet offside

So you haven't been watching him play this season, then?

ZH875
1st Apr 2008, 20:30
Ronaldo scored a beauty of a goal, a very quick run from nowhere, and a very good jump, but the way he barged the opposition out of the way with his elbow was absolutely fantastic.

And So you haven't been watching him play this season, then?No, and if the wife hadn't lost the TV remote, I wouldn't have watched him tonight either.

Alloa Akbar
2nd Apr 2008, 08:41
Nick R - Actually yes you do represent my thoughts on this one mate, 3 up, 3 down.. as for middle table teams having nothing to play for.. maybe they ought to focus on the whole point of the football leagueat all levels worldwide.:ugh:

Bravo73
2nd Apr 2008, 10:07
as for middle table teams having nothing to play for.. maybe they ought to focus on the whole point of the football leagueat all levels worldwide.:ugh:

Which is what exactly...??? :confused:

Nick Riviera
2nd Apr 2008, 13:40
Bravo

Sorry, but you have me massively confused with your assertion that 3 up/3 down DIDN'T work well for many years. How exactly have you reached that conclusion?

As for only 6 teams in each division being in the running for the top 3 spots, I would place a hefty bet that you would not have included Bristol City, Stoke and Hull in that list for the Championship this season, yet they occupy the top 3 spots currently. It is a long hard season and it is only right that the team that finishes 3rd should go up. Where is the fairness in having the team in 6th place go up instead? The league is a season long competition that should not be decided by a 3 game knockout contest. The incentive for the teams that finish outside of the top 3 is to build a better team and be good enough to take an automatic promotion spot. Comparing this to the UEFA cup is a nonsense. That competition is a consolation prize. There is no consolation prize for a team that finishes third losing in a play off to a team that finishes 6th.

Effluent Man
2nd Apr 2008, 14:59
Clearly the reason for the play offs is to add some end of season excitement.It is always unpredictable who will finish where.I have seen both Stoke and Hull play at Carrot Rd in recent weeks and with all respect to both teams I would not rate their chances in the Premiership much better than Derby's,although Hull were the better of the two.On a lighter note I agree that only the top three go up,I hate to think of Ipswich sneaking into 6th place on the final day of the season and then getting promoted!

Bravo73
2nd Apr 2008, 16:08
Bravo

Sorry, but you have me massively confused with your assertion that 3 up/3 down DIDN'T work well for many years. How exactly have you reached that conclusion?

Nick,

What I actually said was that it didn't work 'that well'. Which is why the football authorities/administrators sought to change it. And kept it changed, BTW. ;)



As for only 6 teams in each division being in the running for the top 3 spots, I would place a hefty bet that you would not have included Bristol City, Stoke and Hull in that list for the Championship this season, yet they occupy the top 3 spots currently.

And? :confused: I didn't say anything about the 5-6 teams being the pre-season favourites.


It is a long hard season and it is only right that the team that finishes 3rd should go up. Where is the fairness in having the team in 6th place go up instead?

The only 'fairness' comes from the fact that all of the teams were aware of the rules at the beginning of the season and were happy to abide by them.

To continue using your Championship example, if you look at the current league table, I'm sure that West Brom, Watford, Wolves, Ipswich, Plymouth, Palace, Burnley, Charlton and Cardiff are happy with the current system. Only West Brom and Watford would be happy with the old system. (My criteria is making up a 5 point difference by the end of the season.)

This then means that the fans of an extra 7 clubs have got something to follow for the reminder of the season. And surely that's ultimately what it's all about? Entertainment.

The incentive for the teams that finish outside of the top 3 is to build a better team and be good enough to take an automatic promotion spot.

I don't doubt that for a second. But do the leagues essentially exist for the benefit of the teams? Or the fans?

Comparing this to the UEFA cup is a nonsense. That competition is a consolation prize. There is no consolation prize for a team that finishes third losing in a play off to a team that finishes 6th.

It's not nonsense at all. The UEFA Cup means that the top 6/7 places in the Premiership have 'added value' so this gives something for the clubs to aim for. The play-off positions mean that the top 6 places in the other leagues also have 'added value'.




Clearly the reason for the play offs is to add some end of season excitement.

Exactly! :D

Nick Riviera
2nd Apr 2008, 16:50
OK, so explain why it didn't work THAT well then. If you think that the administrators changed it for any other reason than the chance to generate some extra income then you are very naive.

Of course every team not in the first 3 places is a supporter of the play offs but that doesn't make it right. Why not extend the playoffs to 8 or 10 teams, why only 4? That would keep everybody 'interested' for longer.

The point is that the leagues are there to show which are the best teams, the ones that deserve to be promoted. Inventing an artificial tournament to provide a bit of out of season income is not achieving this. God forbid that it is eventually modelled on rugby so that all of the top teams play off to decide the champions. Just because everybody is aware of the rules does not make it right. But hey, let's make it like the UEFA Cup and give everybody a consolation prize just for turning up.

Bravo73
2nd Apr 2008, 17:07
blah, blah, blah...then you are very naive.

Sticks and stones, Nick.

Adios.

chevvron
2nd Apr 2008, 18:28
Well I was at Pride Park on saturday; my sympathies to Derby County supporters but it looks like Fulham will go down too; still I'll drag myself to the Cottage on saturday to see it if they can at least beat Sunderland; amazingly the match is sold out, but I've got a season ticket; the next two Fulham matches are also sold out (Reading away and Liverpool at home);pity Al Fayed was pre-occupied with other things for most of the season otherwise he might have got rid of Sanchez earlier.

BombayDuck
2nd Apr 2008, 18:52
but the way he barged the opposition out of the way with his elbow was absolutely fantastic.

You know, I've watched the video a few times now. And I can't for the life of me figure out just what the hell you're on about. His entire arm was close to his body without the elbow poking out when he was in the air. The speed at which he was flying meant that if an outward elbow had impacted anything it would have been hurt or broken.

But I guess I can't stop from seeing things you want to believe in.

Nick Riviera
3rd Apr 2008, 12:13
Christ, Bravo, you have a hissy fit because I called you naive. How thin is your skin?

Little Blue
3rd Apr 2008, 21:04
Jeez...this thread hurts.....I'm a RAMS fan and this season has HURT !
I've been watching em since '72 and we've had the highs and the lows ( Mostly lows) but this year beats em all !
Play-offs ARE a lottery. We've been beaten twice in the semi's, once after finishing 3rd and again after coming 6th, as well as losing in the final so I think we finally deserved a win last season. And we had finished 3rd.
Still, we've managed to stink out the Premier all year so take that as you will.
Excuses from the club have varied from the then boss, Billy Davies not having long enough to bring in the right players, due having to wait til after the play-off final to the fact that we really are a crock of sh1t ! (And one win in 32 does tend to underline that !)
Ah well, only five more points to beat Sunderlands 15 points record.
Bring on the cricket ! (Although Derbyshires recent record ain't much to crow about !)