Scotairways pilots say "I'm alright jack"

[Report FIR boundary]

The results of the ballot of Scotairways pilots is published today. It seems that given the choice between a 5% pay cut or the loss of the jobs of the most junior pilots the majority would prefer to see the job cuts.

62% voted in favour of further job cuts rather than see their salarys reduced by 5%.

Well, thats democracy for you.

Good to see that we are all sticking together.

[Rowley]

Are ScotAirways linked with BA by any chance? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Airbrake]

Be aware, all may not be as it seems! I believe the pilots had initially accepted a 5% pay cut for all the right reasons, ie to save jobs and ease company cash flow etc. However, they then found out that staff in other sections of the company had been given a pay increase! Hence leading to another ballot. . .This info is second hand so I stand to be corrected?

[sky9]

I have to say that I am in favour of the job cut option when it is offered. Invariably when the actual job cut is due the market has changed. "Last in first out" is generally the best option other than voluntary redundancies, otherwise we all end up working for less.

[Hudson Bay]

You are in favour of the job cut option purely because you are a selfish individual. You are not alone, you are probably part of the majority but that does not make it right. Remember you entered this world with nothing and for certain you will leave it with nothing.

[Notso Fantastic]

I think you'll find that pilots do themselves no favours by jointly sharing the pain. We end up losing the jobs and the pay. I think it is better if managements think they can cut jobs to let them go ahead and do it- if the business needs the extra jobs, then they will be employed. 'Sharing the pain' with equal pay cuts all round may look attractive, but those jobs will go eventually anyway if the business won't support them. Call it selfish- I call it realistic (BA- we 'shared the pain' with no/poor pay deals, now the job cuts are on us anyway- 400 fewer. So did we do ourselves any favours?)

[KwikPhix]

[quote] Be aware, all may not be as it seems! I believe the pilots had initially accepted a 5% pay cut for all the right reasons, ie to save jobs and ease company cash flow etc. However, they then found out that staff in other sections of the company had been given a pay increase! Hence leading to another ballot. . .This info is second hand so I stand to be corrected? <hr></blockquote>. .Hmm... . .1)When was the last time the Pilots Recieved a pay increase?

2) When was the last time the 'Staff in other sections' recieved one? (I'll give you a clue they haven't !)

Just a thought.

[sky9]

Hudson Bay

I was on the bottom of a seniority list in exactly the same scenario when the same question was asked. I told the CC not to accept a pay cut in exchange for my job. Needless to say we didn't get the pay cut & I didn't lose my job.

It is for management to manage, not pilots and we shouldn't help them by accepting lower salaries in exchange for jobs.

[tailscrape]

Sky9.

Quite right old boy.

Never trade terms for jobs. They are rarely linked and all we do is erode our lifestyles into the bargain.

[MOR]

Hudson Bay is displaying all the logic of a torpid turtle.

He/she/it is obviously very new to aviation... this dodge has been tried many time before. If you accept the pay cut, the slope you have just stepped onto will turn out to be long and very slippery.

We certainly enter the world with nothing, and we will certainly leave with nothing... so in between, we should try to have... nothing?

Grow up! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

"He who dies with the most toys, still dies"

[Shawny1]

KwikPhix,

Remember that you can soar like an eagle but the weasal never gets sucked into an engine!!

[Hudson Bay]

What was that I said? Selfish and part of the majority!

[nigelhayes5000]

Hudson bay..I think Iam inclined to agree with you on this one. If airlines are cutting jobs then surely its to save money and not just to work the remaing pilots harder, so for the pilots who are so worried about their 5% pay cuts in order to prevent the oncoming of a long and slippy slope, let me tel you if its coming the meking a few pilots redundant will in favour of keeping and extra £50 per week nett against the extra trips into work to cover for these pilots..what more do I need to say apart from the airlines point of view and that is..All the extra monies spent on re-training the pilots when they find that the selfish ones who remain cant cope with the work that they have and are now complaining how bad things are and they need to get more pilots..furhermore the monies saved by not having to retrain could then be used to increase your salaries albeit by £5 per week but then what the hell you need the money dont you!

Think about it you know it makes sence. . :)

[basil fawlty]

I cannot say that I am surprised. These "hard" times will show the true colours of many in the piloting fraternity I'm afraid. Unfortunately phrases such as "pay cut" (or even "tax rise"!) stir up very negative, even fearful emotions in a lot of people, even if it only results in cutting back on one meal out per week.. .Please remember though that the piloting profession, like many others such as medicine, have only secured the favourable terms and conditions enjoyed by many as a result of the workforce looking after each other over the years and "singing from the same hymn sheet" so to speak. Those laid off will be very tempted to take any flying work they can get, regardless of pay or perks, and this will ultimately erode everyone elses position far more surely and rapidly than any other scenario. This is part of the problem that BA is suffering from right now.. .Please guys, lets bury the small minded selfishness, remember the old saying "what goes around comes around" and in the relatively small flightcrew community you are not immune. Ultimately it has to be everybody or nobody.

[MOR]

Well, Hudson Bay migh be naive and childlike, but merlotty is just bizarre!

So you think that once pilots work out that they have to work a little harder, the company will simply employ more pilots when the "selfish" ones complain about the workload?

I really hope you are joking! Small outfits like ScotAirways will work their crews to the limits of the FTLs to save money. There is nothing the pilots can do about a (legal) hard roster. There are no "re-training" fees.

I have thought about it, and it makes no sense whatsoever. As english is clearly not your first language, maybe something got lost in the translation!!

As for basil fawlty, the only people to have benefited much from collective bargaining are BA pilots, the cost of that success of course subsidised by the non-BA BALPA members. There is really no evidence of pilots working together across the industry to improve pay and conditions- any progress that is made is only local to individual companies. There is no uniformity- companies pay what they can get away with, in accordance with supply and demand at the time.

Given the apparent unwillingness of the low-cost crews to join or accept BALPA, the situation will only get worse, not better. Of course the low-cost boys and girls get paid a decent whack to begin with!

[Pegasus77]

It is true nonsense to fire newly-trained pilots, just to hire new ones one year later. Therefore a management threatening with such a thing can't be taken seriously.

In my company the management used 9-11 as an excuse to get a few things "cleaned up". As a newly hired pilot I was told I would be fired if my colleages wouldn't give in to a salary-cut. In the end they did give in and I was allowed to stay.

Afterwards I can only think of the management using me as pressure on my colleages in a very nasty way.

Firing me as youngest and therefore cheapest pilot would not solve anything!. .Firing me as newly-trained pilot would mean the company would lose about 100.000EUR of training-investment! They could keep me here for years and it would still be cheaper than hiring another guy.

The only thing that it did cause with me in the end is that I almost lost my motivation, because flying on the edge of being fired does not really make it fun.

[nigelhayes5000]

Glad to hear you kept your job! Your work colleague's get my vote, How refreshing to hear that there's still some people out there that don't come into the selfish category all be it with the thumb screws at max tension..Good luck!

[basil fawlty]

MOR,. .How have the terms and conditions secured by BA pilots been "subsidised by the non BA BALPA members" exactly? You yourself have stated that pilots have little influence with regards to pay in other companies. Not a case of "green eyed envy across the apron" is it? In my earlier post I was refering to the fact that there is little support "in house" these days, from those in the top half of the seniority list to those in the bottom half. It seems that many would rather see their more junior collegues sent down the road than have their kids miss a horse riding lesson, or whatever, here and there!!

[relapse]

Quite right guys..

I bet that the job cuts will be no more severe without the pay cut than if you accepted a pay cut.

Management have an investment in flight crew that they should long and hard about before cutting loose. They will work for their competitors who will get a type rated pilot trained and paid for.

[Super -63]

Don't believe all that has been told...... I have been told that among the desperate pilots salaries (Ahhh) the Ops staff and have also been told of the 5% pay drop.... The Pilots are the only ones that have the union to decide the fate of the airline. If the Ops/Engineering/Res staff made the decision then what would the poor pilots have to say....

[MOR]

Basil Fawlty

Sorry, I have not the slightest interest in working for BA. I actually declined an offered interview back in 1989, and have been heartily glad I never went there. This is mainly because I like flying with folk I know, like rapid promotion, and don't like the "tiny cog in big machine" syndrome. Besides, my present employer is more secure than BA seems to be.

My point about subsidy is that, for many years, those of us in BALPA paid our subs, but seldom got any form of pay bargaining assistance from them. When they did get involved, we ended up with minimal pay increases after not-a-lot of effort on BALPAs part. Instead, they saved their pennies for the big fight, ie increasing the already exhorbitant BA salaries. It is interesting to note that the trend continues, if recent pay negotiations in other airlines are anything to go by.

As non-BA pilots are now in the minority at BALPA, one would expect a little more equality- but one does not hold ones breath.

Quite right, pilots have little influence over pay, as their principal negotiating weapon isn't doing an effective job.

Most people alter their lifestyle to suit their salary, not the other way round; you will probably find that the folk that voted for no pay cut, probably couldn't afford said pay cut, and therefore had little choice in the matter.

As for the people who think that crews are so valuable, a) it isn't that expensive to train crews on Dorniers and b)pilots are, have been, and always will be, a commodity. The sooner you realise that, the sooner you will appreciate your real place in the world!

[easondown]

MOR,

Well said mate!!!