Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?

[bluepilot]

BA pilots are asking for our support in their strugle against openskies, my question is do they really deserve it?

Before some BA pilots shout "we dont need your support" remember you have through your BALPA CC asked for support through IFALPA, one form of this is the IFALPA recruitment ban on Openskys.

Having read other threads on PPrune and observed the elitist behaviour of the BA CC over the years regarding DAN AIR, BA Cityexpress, GSS etc and the sheer arrogance of some of the BA pilots who have posted on here I think not................let them fight their own little war and sink with it. They argue that they set the standards to which all UK pilots aspire.........I think not anymore, many European companies have better terms and conditions than BA, in fact I think Virgin are a better bet regarding general T and Cs.

[Tandemrotor]

And only 18 months after you returned your strike ballot!

What do you think?

Since it was only last month you were talking of applying to BA, I would have thought it was in your interests that we succeeded! :rolleyes:

2 Feb 2008, in thread titled BA747 rostering:
hi peeke,

just curious, have you landed a direct entry f/o B744 with BA? I thought they were only recruiting for the A320 / B737. If so I might be interested in applying.
:confused::confused::confused:

[bluepilot]

In order to stop a thread drift i have sent you a PM tandemrotor.

I am not interested in joining BA.

[Wizofoz]

Tandem,

You are aware that by coming across as a complete pompous ass you do your own cause no good?:rolleyes:

[kwachon]

As a non BA pilot, we need to think "pilots as a whole", the action they are taking will preserve the ground for the rest of the up coming pilot community who one day will step in their shoes.

The actions taken against pilots are very rarely taken by pilots, we need to speak with one voice and preserve the rights we have regarding our choice of where we wish to fly and for whom.

[bluepilot]

well said kwachon!! a lesson BA pilots need to learn i feel ;-)

Random air, yes that really was a bitchy little comment that has nothing to do with the thread, verbal reasoning has nothing to do with spelling... its about being analyitical and absorbing information....prob why it took you three goes!:);)

[RED WINGS]

Yes I think we should pledge the same scope, and support that BA pilots pledged for all the other pilots that were or are in the BA group! :E

[TheGorrilla]

I suspect most of you haven't thought about the effect Openskies will have on the industry in the UK.

Sounds arrogant but if BA use this as a "Trojan Horse" to force in lower t&cs across the BA workforce then some 3300 pilots out of 10-12,000 (ish) commercial pilots in the uk then that can only set a precidence to other operators in the uk who may use BA salaries as benchmarks.

[Dick Deadeye]

Hmmm....

From this:

Bluepilot 02 Feb 08
have you landed a direct entry f/o B744 with BA? I thought they were only recruiting for the A320 / B737. If so I might be interested in applying.

to this:

Bluepilot 23 Mar 08
I am not interested in joining BA.


and from this:

Bluepilot 07 Feb 08
now before all you BA guys jump down my throat and tell me how much "we" need to fight this ... i agree we do!!

good luck to all at BA. despite my seemingly anti post you really do have my utmost support.

Bluepilot 08 Feb 08
As I have said I really do support you guys

to this:

Bluepilot 23 Mar 08
let them fight their own little war and sink with it.


From which we can deduce that the PFO letter from BA / OpenSkies arrived on Bluepilot's door mat earlier this month! :}

Sounds like BA selection got that one right! :D

[oapilot]

Yes I think we should pledge the same scope, and support that BA pilots pledged for all the other pilots that were or are in the BA group!

Seconded. That'll be bugger all then.

[bluepilot]

Dick dead eye you couldnt be more WRONG!!

By the personal attacks you are pointing in my direction you are confirming the arrogance that has really pi**ed me and alot of others off over these proceedings.

As you have pointed out I have gone from a supporter of your cause to an opponent (seemingly).

You just dont get it do you??? This is not about me this is about working TOGETHER AS A PILOT COMMUNITY.

Can any of you (BA pilots) admit that there were mistakes in the past and those mistakes have bought this mess apon you.

will you ever learn ? :ugh::ugh:

[Da Dog]

I'm an arrogant, condescending, chip on his shoulder, silver spoon in mouth BA pilot:ok:

Whatever anyone thinks, every airline in Europe is watching this dispute and its outcome.:uhoh:

If BA succeed then you can bet your bottom dollar that the bottom line for pilot pay and conditions will fall further and faster than they are at the moment.

If I were starting out then BA may not be my first choice, clearly bluepilot has that choice, he/she is a lucky person:D

[hunterboy]

bluepilot - what would you do if after joining Openskies, your management (inept and immoral...as you may find out) decide to set up another company to employ pilots to do your job for less than the going rate? Wouldn't you ballot your fellow Openskies pilots to protect your agreed T's and C's?
In a way, it is a pity that you didn't join us in BA. I've lost count of the number of newbies that join us ranting about millionaire BA pilots living like Lords doing bugger all work. Normally, they change their tune after 6 months. Those that don't seem to go into management to work out ways of enriching themselves at evrybody else's expense. If you join Openskies, you will find this out. Knowing the management involved in Openskies, all I can say is "Good Luck". You will need it. Please don't say you weren't warned.

[The Swedish Virgin]

You have got my support ! It is time for pilots to stop fighting each other, that will only drive T and C:s down, down and down.
Management give each other bonuses and 20% payincreases, maybe if we stopped fighting each other. . . .

Good luck to you guys in BA

[bluepilot]

I will try to explain the reason I have started this thread.

Most pilots at an early stage learnt to learn from their mistakes, analyse information and act on it accordingly.

Over the past few years the BA CC have allowed BA management to get away with murder regarding T and C, they have believed that they were working in the interests of their members by “allowing” franchises, BACX , GSS with the small reward of a few commands within some of these companies. What has happened is the BA CC have allowed non BA pilots to fly BA planes for years and years and worse still have severely p**ed off fellow pilot communities as well.

Now BA decide to start openskies, a different company working in different countries but flying bread and butter routes to the USA, the BA CC say no! Not without the pilots being on the mainline list, shout “BA planes BA pilots” but hang on??? non BA pilots have flown BA planes for years, (and before you all jump at me and say AHHH the B757-200 is a BA owned plane remember it was planned to be replaced anyway and is being “sold” to another airline). The sheer arrogance of the BA CC by not insisting that ALL pilots who have flown the flag in the past were on the mainline list has come back to haunt them. The BALPA chairman JM stupidly enraged the non BA pilot community by inferring that this dispute was also about standards and using BA038 as an example. He inferred that if an non BA pilot had been at the controls of that aircraft then the outcome may have been very different!!!! It all boils down to this, the pilots, BA management, BA CC and BALPA are guilty of corporate arrogance.

Now to answer my own question “do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys”?
Damn right they do! We all make mistakes and as professional pilots we learn from them, what the BA CC did to BACX , GSS etc was wrong, it not only damaged the pilots in those airlines it severly weakened the BA pilots future case with openskies, they must learn from the past and never ever allow this situation to arise again. As a BALPA member it is my duty to support my colleagues in BA, no they should not fight their own little war and sink with it, but we all need to learn from this BA and non BA members alike, unless we pull together and work together better in the future we will all suffer.

Management have done a good job in dividing the pilot forces, lets not let them conquer us!

[Tandemrotor]

bluepilot

I think I now see where you are coming from, and I am genuinely (and humbly!) grateful for your support!

All I can say is that there are two sides, to all the BA associated airlines to which you have referred.

I do not believe you can realistically expect 3300 BA pilots to go on strike for the sake of 4 aircraft's worth of freighter work. (That is the current GSS agreement) I'm not even sure it would be legal.

Nor would many have gone on strike to incorporate 50 seat aircraft into mainline, as per BACX. (The RJ100 pilots had the opportunity, and will revert to mainline in two years)

That is not to say we wouldn't have supported those pilot groups, had they decided to force the issue! But they didn't, and haven't. There's the rub!!!

To paraphrase your earlier post; the BA CC did nothing to BACX , or GSS that would have harmed their chances of joining mainline. We want GSS work in house. Why wouldn't we? But it's not our company, and presumably there are many of their pilots who don't want to be BA!!!

OS is totally unlike the previous examples. It involves aircraft of an unlimited size (unlike BACX!) and in unlimited numbers (unlike GSS!)

We haven't found it easy to raise an army even over this obvious attack! It's 22 years since we last struck!!

What chance do you think we would have stood with earlier issues??

I'm sorry, but sometimes people have to take responsibility for their own situations. I'll support anyone who is prepared to down the tools!!

I hope others feel the same, but if they don't........

[411A]

Many BA pilots just will not face reality.
Their once cushey jobs are on the decline, and reality will set in sooner or later.
OS is just the first of a long series of cost reducing efforts, yet the BA pilots continue to resist, with their silly 'bans' etc.
Management will prevail in the long run, make no mistake....they always do.;)

In addition, I wonder why present BA pilots would try to convince others...after all, it's their 'fight'.
Why not just go on strike instead of pithering about all the time?
No backbone perhaps?:}

[Tandemrotor]

This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.

Fantastic.

It works!! :):):)

[click]

This thread is bizarre. It's really hard to read for the frequent last minute edits and what the hell is a BA CC and BALPA CC? CC is and always was a flight attendant. Cabin Crew. Have I missed some form of newspeak? Aside from that, this is a no brainer. They need our support. End of story.

[bluepilot]

CC = Company Council

[excrab]

Click

"CC" is short for "Company Council" - a group of pilots elected by the Balpa members in an individual airline who negotiate with their management on matters relating to their company, assisted as required by professional negotiators from Balpa head office.

However, the question about support is a strange one. Balpa at BA has an incredibly high membership percentage compared to some UK airlines, and if they really believe that this new airline shouldn't happen then all they have to do is to vote for strike action. 90 something % of BA pilots walking out and standing over smoking braziers on picket lines at LHR and LGW would certainly have an effect, I should think. Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.

Just before I run for cover I would quickly add that I am a Balpa member at a UK airline, I don't work for BA, I don't want to work for BA and I don't want to work for Open Skies so have no vested interest.

[xrba]

No, the BA pilots do not DESERVE any support, they certainly haven't supported anyone else in the past, and are very unlikely to do so in the future.
Their chosen mouthpiece, BALPA, is the most perfidious bunch ever to disgrace the co-operative movement, association, union, call it what you will. As an ex DAN captain I can vouch for this. Regrettably however, the T&Cs that they negotiate entirely for themselves do act as a benchmark and these do have an effect on the whole pilot community well-being. Galling though it may be to support them and their jackals, it is probably a necessary evil. It will be interesting to review the outcome in the future.

[Jack's a dull boy]

Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.

The IFALPA ban is patronising, divisive and threatening. I am quite sure it works against BALPAs objectives as whatever their standpoint, pilots will react against being threatened.

[7Q Off]

Pilots should be united. Thay have my support. :ok:

[Min Drag]

Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?

Good question - overall I think in the interests of the industry as a whole the answer has to be yes.

That said, IMHO, there are one or two individuals posting on Pprune who are doing an injustice to their cause.

Any attempts at intimidation here do not do the majority of BA pilots any favours. Start calling people "Scabs" (charming term from the dark ages) if you must once you've got yourself a strike action. At the moment intimidation is likely to lose you support and harden the resolve of those considering Openskies.

The T's & C's offered by Openskies may not be as good as what's on offer at BA but the stark reality is compared to quite a few other companies they're not bad. The fact is people will be interested and apply no matter what is posted here.

There also seems to be an arrogance over the qualifications/selection into mainstream BA compared to OS. This is not helped wth quotes from BALPA spokesmen, like:

"This is going to create flight crews that are not as well-trained and experienced as those currently employed - it's a major problem."

and other references to less able/qualified pilots.

What unsubstantiated rubbish this is arrogant and insulting to the rest of the pilot community. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who chose not to apply to BA or even attended Cranebank and didn't quite fit their mould.

MD :ugh:

[Tandemrotor]

Twelve months ago, in a galaxy far, far away....
I am currently flying 757's but am looking to improve my lifestyle and move to France

Mmmmm?

Anything you want to share with us Min Drag? :rolleyes:

No wonder you are so outraged at "references to less able/qualified pilots." :E

[Mister Geezer]

We now see some airlines charging for type ratings and even for line training, however these ideas were not developed by any flag carrier in Europe. If an airline wishes to erode their Ts & Cs then they don't wait for innovative ideas to be formed by large airlines. With the unstable economic environment - if our employer perceives that they have a need to erode our conditions then they will, regardless if BA lead or not.

The working life for flight crew has changed over the past decade or so, with flag carriers now offering a working life which is becoming rarer as time passes with the touring and night stops etc. Many LCCs and smaller airlines like to advertise that if you join us then you don't night stop and you get home every night. Also coupled to that is the fixed roster that easyJet and others now offer. For some people this is a significant benefit but none of these initiatives have been modeled on any flag carrier airline such as BA.

Airline management now need to be as ruthless as ever and they won't hesitate in altering our conditions or lifestyle for the worse if they see a need for it and they won't wait for big brother for follow. With the business models and the resulting working practices being quite different between BA and many other airlines, the days of comparing 'like with like' are starting to become numbered. If conditions were altered for the worse at BA - I don't necessarily see that the ripple effect will be as large as some may think.

[World of Tweed]

I wonder if you or your company has been involved in any pay talks or negotiations in recent times?

Because if it had and your CC was astute enough to the fact that BA is recruiting on their current T&Cs into mainline, you will find, provides considerable leverage during any "benchmarking" exercise on pay or conditions.

For example most legacy charter outfits have for many years benchmarked themselves to BA for that very reason. To try and keep their pilots. That doesn't mean we are paid the same but it does mean that we enjoy a lifestyle that for most is similar to that which they would aspire to when working for a huge flag carrier.

In short BA guys, however arrogant the precious few on here appear to be, deserve our support. Anyone with basic insight into the industry can see that yes we - as a working group will be forever afflicted with the O'leary curse of terminal cost cuts and attacks on our livelyhoods. At some point there has to be a stand.

In BA that Time is now... quite rightly because having come from a an underling post in airline management myself - trying to do what we all suspect BA is doing is EXACTLY what I would try and do if I was a senior - bonus driven - share optioned - Manager. Thankfully I'm merely a humble driver apparently I had too much personality to make the cut!

I add that I would question some of the arguments been suggested on here particularly about BA038. But overall BALPA needs to be strong with this one. It they back down now it will be the beginning of the end to many of the quality arrangements - sure for BA at first but all that negotiation leverage for the kids on the other side of the playground just disappeared!

So whilst in their articulation and execution they may be flawed. BA guys need our support and deserve it.

The view: "well I don't have that therefore he shouldn't" is quite frankly offensive and perhaps says more about ones character - casting doubts on the ability of one to be enjoying any of these hard fought benefits in any of the Higher Cost carriers in the future!

[Dan Winterland]

Make no bones, the outcome of this fight will have an effect on the Ts and Cs of every pilot in the UK and maybe Europe. A national carrier sets the standards for pay and conditions for all carriers in that country.

A fight worth fighting. Give the BA pilots your support.

[no sponsor]

I don't think that the outcome of this fight will have any impact on those airlines whose conditions are already appalling when compared to BA, or other flag carriers. In my airline, we wonder in envy at those T&Cs and associated perks, and there is no way my airline could or would ever match them, no matter what the outcome is. I suspect some people take the envy to an unhealthy extreme.

Certainly, if it is your desire to work for BA in the future, then you should care. If that isn't your bag, then I don't think it does matter. But perhaps I am missing something? Why this juncture, why not in the past with BA Connect, or GSS, or even GO - what's so different about this? The 100+ seat argument is lost on me, but I'm not very bright.

[Human Factor]

I don't think that the outcome of this fight will have any impact on those airlines whose conditions are already appalling when compared to BA....

On the contrary. If you even have a sniff of your present T&Cs improving at the moment, specifically if there are better deals elsewhere and folks keep leaving your outfit to get them, market forces dictate that your outfit will have to improve it's T&Cs to retain it's pilots. If the T&Cs at other outfits deteriorate to match those in your current outfit, where is the incentive for them to be improved at your outfit?

It's not rocket science.

[the grim repa]

a very complex issue,best tackled after a hearty meals a copious pints.but my take is,that you and i have to support one another irrespective of where we work or out viewpoint.one may well think that not supporting one another is irrelevant in this day and age.the harsh truth is that pilots need to to be more united now than anytime since the creation of aviation.aviation is at a crossroads and failure to work for the common good falls right into the management trap.the catch 22 of this situation is that one may well have to work for the benefit of a person they dislike.but only by stepping above the individual profiteering,will their be a future for all.think outside the box,your manager does.
one may think that a simple act of selfishness is ok,in time it will spin around to bite you on the ass.the signs are all around us.no one is exempt.

[The Little Prince]

I believe you're right, and I believe that BA pilots are right, at least from a the perspective of Pay and Conditions survival....however, anyone from GSS / Connect / BACX / Dan Air may be excused for wondering where the support was when they needed it too. Still, I'm quite quite sure that we're all sufficiently altruistic to "do as you would be done by" and gracefully forget the days when the bat was not even greased before being abruptly inserted.

[Kurtz]

I can't spell altruistic - but I certainly remember the bat!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire!

[411A]

Oh gosh, Kurtz, do tell us how you really feel...:E

In actual fact, the BA guys (and gals) I have met downroute many times have their beaks well above ground effect...just the nature of the beast, I suspect.

However, no matter what they think now, they will not achieve...the company has plans, you see, and it is not in the companies best interest to abandon OS, nor is it in the companies best interest to concede many points.

Look for a compromise, with the BALPA guys on the short end of the stick...just where they belong.:zzz::zzz:

[Tandemrotor]

Quick question for TLP, and Kurtz, with both of whom I am well acquainted:

You are both rightly bitter about your piss poor handling in BACX/Connect at the hands of British Airways Plc

This had absolutely NOTHING to do with BA pilots!

But in any case you had your OWN Company Council did you not? A group of your OWN pilots elected BY YOU to represent YOUR interests!

Did you have a strike ballot over any issues??

If not, why not??

We don't wish to be pissed on like you were. We are prepared to take action to prevent it.

As I have said earlier in this thread. Sooner or later, people have to take responsibility for their own situations.

I'll support ANYONE who downs the tools. I just don't recall that being you. :rolleyes:

Edited to add:
Almost forgot!
This message is hidden because 411A is on your ignore list.

Beaut! :E

[the heavy heavy]

I can't spell altruistic - but I certainly remember the bat!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire! - kurtz


how old are you? buy your own cpl and hate the world for not giving it to you on a plate? did one of us steal your wife? i have only been flying for 18 years but find this level of non-sensical hatered beyond belief.

your comments betray a level of intellectual simplicity that airline managers the world over have wet dreams about. your bitterness can only be the result of failure or percieved betrayal. I have flown with many pilots who on having had the sh*ty end of the stick somewhere else ended up in BA. their determination to get the best deal for them and their families says a lot for their motivation and qualities . I can only guess on the tortured path you took to your present job but I am sure that your statement says more about the qualities you possess than any personality flaws in us spoon fed, fat cat, porsche driving nigels.

if i wasn't being paid more with a better pension, staff travel and holiday entitlements than you I might actually want you to cross the street! as it stands you don't worry about us and we will just get on with trying to look after ourselves which in turn should help everybody out.:O

[The Little Prince]

There are three ways to misrepresent things:

Suggestio Falsi:confused:

Suppressio Veri:oh:

Listening to a BA pilot :yuk:

Oops, nearly forgot the fourth, listening to management.:ouch:

The game is not worth the candle; Dan Air have long memories, and so do we.

[Right Engine]

PPrune is utter s**t sometimes! Thanks for reminding me.....

[ShortfinalFred]

And Good Ol' 411a tops the list!:yuk:

[Strepsils]

Ah, reading this makes you proud to be British!

All across America there are pilots in full support of BA pilots (even thought this will have little effect on American pilots) because they have already been shafted and don't want to see it happen again.:ok:

Then on this side of the pond we have the small minded, bitter, twisted individuals who would cut their nose off to spite their face because they feel they were harshly treated in the past.:ugh: No wonder the country is in such a mess.

If you felt hard done by in the past just wait until (if) BA get their way. :hmm:

[Shaka Zulu]

I really do not get some of the reasoning and bitterness about stuff that has got nothing to do with the current situation.
I joined BA only a couple of years ago, trying to make a better living for me and my family.
95% of the guys/girls I fly with are top notch operators/consumate professionals and are well aware of the state of industry as it is in now.
This is partly due to our CURRENT excellent Company Council who I think ARE changing the way a professional union should respond ; but it's also due to people applying foresight and informing themselves about what 'will or could' happen in the future (be it tomorrow or in 10 years time).

I am absolutely sure mistakes have been made in the past, however its implications on how to act today bear no relevance to me. I'm staggered about people spouting untruths without informing themselves, and the blinkered view that it won't affect them.

I've been in the LOCO world and towards management within it and we certainly benchmarked ourselves a) to our direct competitors and b) to legacy carriers. To retain talent suitable for promotion and reduced training cost/turn over.


In no other profession have I seen so much bitterness/anxiety and resentment then in aviation. We owe it to ourselves to be professionals and support eachother.
Keep this industry somewhere dignified and a good job to support a wife and kids.

I'm doing 900hrs a year, can get called anytime in the week to come to work.
My pension won't be more than 25k a year (after 30years service, thanks to the new pension deal) and I'm certainly earning less than I would have earned as a Captain in my previous company for many years to come.
So in short, we are just like any other company now and fight for what is left.

Management love the divide and conquer rule, and seemingly on pprune it's all too easy to create that scenario without management input.
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.

A humble BA pilot

[The Little Prince]

Good post and good luck to you, although I have to wonder why you left your previous - it sounds like you're a junior LHR FO. Hope it works out for you, genuinely.

You suggested:
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.

Which is great, human, and sensible. The trouble is those of us who have had our attempts to do exactly what you propose, trying to make a better living for me and my family have found their careers in ruins and themselves disadvantaged for no good reason other than the arrogance and selfishness of the modern day equivalent of the "Atlantic Barons".
Being human, it's difficult to reconcile that with the pleas for support via IFALPA from those same people - even though I believe they are actually right in their supposition that OS is the thin edge of a very fat wedge which will inevitably reduce Ts and Cs across the Industry.

Fortunately I have no card to play, and no money in the pot. I chose a more sedate regional route and am happy and content with family etc all doing well. However when I read some of the cant and hypocrisy, not to mention the downright lies regarding what happened to my previous organisation when it was part of BA PLC - well, the blood tends to heat up a bit.
Sincere apologies to anyone I've offended here, it's impossible to know which of the more erudite characters were really in situ at the time, but I was, so I know!!!:=

[Jack's a dull boy]

The question at hand is; "Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys (sic)?"

As an FO effectively forced out of GSS by the retrospective imposition of secondments, and based on several other deeply callous and arrogant actions by the BACC/BALPA over the years, I would say; emphatically no!

If the question were "should we support BA pilots re OS", I would say yes.

[Cornflake]

Hear hear!

It seems that BA pilots are fortunate that some of us are less greedy, selfish and arrogant than the BACC representatives have been down the years.

However, if you really want support, buy a crutch - all of our kind words will make no difference to the outcome. More, if I needed a job, (and I'm certainly well enough qualified), I would be phoning OS, and certainly not deterred by the 'Scab' word. When we talk about supporting our families, our own are always more important than anyone else's. That is a concept that the Porsche Pickets seem unable to understand.

[Hand Solo]

It's interesting that all the bile and venom on these threads seems to originate from those who have never had the balls to stand up to their own employers. Rarely does one see that sort of criticism from the pilots of strong companies with decent BALPA representation. Perhaps they recognise their fate lies in their own hands instead of always wishing to blame somebody else for their woes?

[Wizofoz]

strong companies with decent BALPA representation.

Hand,

The problem is that there is a wide perception that the BACC used that strength and representation to further there own interest at the expense of pilots with less barganing power, even though those pilots were in the same union.

We could argue (and Tandem Rotor could make snide, pompous and thus self-defeating remarks!!) till next century as to the ins and outs of the actual individual circumstances, but it is that peception you are up against.

To go to the wider pilot community with the case that "We've looked after ourselves in the past, now help us look after ourselves in the future" is going to be dismissed by sufficient pilots (a good many ex BACX turbo-prop pilots as a convenient example!!) to crew Open Skies and any other five subsiduries BA wish to start!

Perhaps a little ownership of this resentment, and a quid pro quo, more inclusive attitude in future might engender more support.

[Hand Solo]

It's a union Wiz, not a communist society. The cases you site are never about an individual company building up it's own business, finding it's own market and customer base then having it stolen away by BA pilots. The cases are other outfits attempting to steal away business from BA pilots. GSS, a blatant breach of the BA scope agreement with a single, solitary customer; BA. BACX RJ fleet, a direct transfer of work and career opportunities out of BA to a lower cost outfit. Tell me honestly, do you think a union that supports direct transfer of work from higher to lower paid workers in any profession is a union worth having? If your management tried to hand over a 12 strong fleet of your 777s to a lower paid subsidiary and exclude you from flying them, would you really support that?

[Jack's a dull boy]

GSS, a blatant breach of the BA scope agreement

Nonsense - how about you actually read scope HS?

As you cant be bothered it says that mainline may 'bid aspirationally' onto ACMI freighter commands (and freight goes to mainline when >6 a/c) - NOT that ACMI freighters would be prohibited.

The problem was that the whole thing wasn't going to work unless BALPA let GSS recruit lots of FOs and let it get running for a year or two, before dropping the bombshell on the GSS FOs that their commands were to be given to BA FOs. Just to rub it in, nothing (such as staff travel or seniority list access) was offered as recompense - GSS was BA territory when it came to taking commands there, but not BA territory when it came to anything else.

As for being spineless, seeing as BALPA was orchestrating the whole thing, who were we supposed to turn to? - IPA - yeah, right!

Anyway, I think we digress

[PENKO]

Very eloquent words my friend Shaka Zulu, very nice. In lowcost land, every year we hope our salaries get benchmarkt with BA's...true, true...but here is the question amigo.

You ask for the support of the rest of the flying community, but would BA pilots support their comrades in easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair etc. when they put down their tools?For I am sure that you agree that the lowco's have had a far greater impact on BA than any benchmarking will ever have. So when the day comes will you join them in battle? Or will you too look on from the sidelines? Can they count on the BA-pilots?

Tell me yes, and I will believe you. I want to. Unity is what we all need.

[Wizofoz]

No prob, hand.

I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!

[Shaka Zulu]

Penko, I think the answer to that question has got many facets.

First of all , you need a union with a sufficient member base and sufficient backing to carry a strike vote....

Look at RYR: divide and conquer, play every base out against eachother. Thats why MOL objects so violently against REPA, a concerted effort to have everyone on mutual ground.
It's the LAST thing he wants.

EZY: Has got the union representation and the membership base to pack a punch. Hence it's T&C's are what they are. However the company is trying to dilute union involvement as much as RYR tries to do. Setting up different bases/different contracts and make them isolated from eachother. >>divide and conquer.

Wiz: Not familiar with the situation.

Second of all, even if you have the percentages, what issues do you 'ballot' to strike over and which do you not. I think it's clear in the past that some issues should have been taken on the head however it's important to remember that if you poll for a strike and the support crumbles for whatever reason effectively the union is dead in the water and can be sued for damages aswell. More importantly the company will claw back far more than what you were originally striking over.
Ultimately it's very very difficult balancing risk/gain and membership sentiments (REAL membership sentiments)

Prime example is the final salary pension and the contribution pension that BA has now.
It's not a shimmer of it's previous self. However I've flown with no-one that has sais they were in favour of the new pension deal. Interesting when there was a majority vote for it to save the old....
Even if a strike was decreed would there have been the support of the membership to push it all the way.

Only with a proper information campaign is it possible to get guys thinking along the same line. And this is effectively where the current BA company council is SOOO different compared to the old.

So yes, from my perspective and I would guess BALPA's aswell if there is a clear vote/backing/and sensible issues to strike over then I think you will find a lot of support around the globe for your actions. The key is information.


@Wiz, I would hope we tend to be fairly introspective and rumours about what we 'should/could' have done in the past have been rearing up on our private forums aswell with considerable differences in opinion.
I think it's important to remember the union/councils dilemma in aligning all the differences of opinion. I'm saying that the job of aligning is done the best I've seen it over OpenSkies.
Part of that is, there is so much at stake, short and long term.

[Kurtz]

Hand said:

BACX RJ fleet, a direct transfer of work and career opportunities out of BA to a lower cost outfit. Tell me honestly, do you think a union that supports direct transfer of work from higher to lower paid workers in any profession is a union worth having?

Sounds pretty similar to OS really then.
Wiz, great posts, common sense, keen character observations - I'm with you mate!

[Hand Solo]

In what way similar to OS? The RJ transfer represented a direct reduction in the number of mainline pilots. OS would represent an increase in the number of mainline pilots. Do at least try to grasp the issues at hand before commenting.

[The Little Prince]

As a 20 odd year BA employee I cannot tell you all how ashamed this whole sorry mess makes me feel.

I wonder if he, Hand Solo, Tandem Rotor and the rest have the balls to admit the same over their treatment of fellow "BA Airlines Group" fellow aviators?

I am editing this post at the request of Mr Mouse. below is the content of an email I have sent him. Odd really, I would have thought there were plenty of reasons to have felt ashamed to work for BA from dirty tricks to surcharge fixing, from disrupting flights and inconveniencing pax to mismanaging terminals. Ah well, always good to see an employee support his Company!



I wasn't aware that the specificity of your post was so well defined - I mistakenly thought that you were ashamed to work for BA for a whole variety of understandable reasons.
Please accept my apologies, I'm confident you can understand why anyone should make that mistake about a BA employee these days.



Let's make it plain - M.Mouse is only ashamed of working for BA SOME of the time, for VARIABLE reasons!















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Nope, thought not.:yuk:











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Hand, you are so far up your own back passage that you cannot comprehend reality. As the Wiz commented, I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!

You really, genuinely, totally do not see or acknowledge any other point of view but your own. That's why you lot and Walsh are so similar, that's why you, and what passes for the UK National Carrier have really had it. I'll certainly honk if and when I drive past the picket line - I'll smile too, knowing how many egos are being re-aligned with reality.
The actuality is that it'll never come to a picket line - you're already screwed, you just don't realise how much of it is down to yoursleves.
Genuinely tragic, lions led by donkeys as someone remarked a few years ago, although he didn't stop to question the educational qualifications of the lions - maybe they made the donkeys look like Einstein!

[Hand Solo]

I see others viewpoints perfectly well TLP, but I also know boll*cks when I see it written. I'm sure David Irving firmly believes the Holocaust was exaggerated, but I certainly don't empathise with him or believe his writings. Now I want to make it clear that I am in no way comparing you with the odious Mr Irving, but just because you strongly believe in your view doesn't mean it's right or I should agree or empathise. In all my years on PPRuNe I think I have seen a handful of BACX pilots who had a realistic appraisal of the business situation of BACX, in that it was screwed. Wrong fleet. Too many aircraft. Too many bases. Poor crewing. Poor reliability. Wrong market position. Reliant on wet leasing contracts and monopoly routes for profits. Once the Lo-Cos came along, particularly Easyjet, BACX was a dead man walking. I don't need to tell you that you are not one of those BACX pilots. Perhaps if you, and your CC, had accepted that reality earlier you'd have behaved differently. I can't say I blame you for grasping at the BAR RJ jobs, after all a drowning man will grasp at anything to keep afloat. Just don't try to tell me that just because you are grasping at those jobs means it's right that we should hand them over lock, stock and barrel.

[The Little Prince]

That perception is accurate today, but was not so at the time in question.
All BACX pilots (and GSS, and Dan) ever wanted was what you lot are now insisting happens to OS.
(But I'm sure you can show how the strands of the debate are suffieciently different to warrant an opposite view - you reallyshould be in politics. Mind you, ain't this where Rob Hall came from and went to - hmm, thought provoking.)

Your case is a ridiculous transposition of argument based, again, on self interest.
I've nothing against self interest, after all, it's the ultimate motivator for all of us except the most saintly and unattached, however the way BACC and BALPA twist and turn makes them no more than the moral equivalent of Walsh and BA management. You deserve each other - I'm glad I'm out of it, and while I still have strong feelings about the past and will not allow the more ridiculously extreme statements to go unchallenged - ach, a pox on both your houses. The Regionals will do rather well out all this, as the debacle of T5 has shown tonight.
World's Favourite - IPML!;)

[Shaka Zulu]

TLP forgive me for not being there when the whole BACX saga was unfolding but after doing a bit of research on the subject I've got the distinct impression that the 'mishandling' of it all can definitely NOT be attributed to the average normal BA line pilot.
Too many factors/too many opinions/too many ego's/too many interests....

We're digressing again into a useless discussion because of past skeletons in a very dark closet. Leave it be, just for once.
The only thing we seem best doing as aviators is moaning.
See the threats to Employment and T&C's for what they are.

I for one would like to preserve this job for future generations as something worthwile.
And so do many many of my fellow BA pilots, who display a lot of foresight and guts to take the company on over this.
Of course there is a vested self interest at the heart of it all but intrinsically there is nothing wrong with that. You have to pick your fights carefully if you want a powerful mandate to protect what is yours.
You don't necessarily have to agree, it's a democracy after all.

If you look at how market forces work than most certainly the following rule is true:
if you lower the benchmark then your own company council (if you have one) will find it harder to negotiate a good deal when you are up for improving your lot. Even find to have more downward pressure than up.

I thank anyone who comes out to support us, and do not judge your average BA line pilot on impersonal forum postings. Make your own mind up with the facts that are on the table.

regards
SZ

[PoodleVelour]

Good post Shaka.

I was at BACX too, BRAL before that, Manx before that, Loganair before that from the mid 80s onward - so I know exactly what happened. I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed, which is possibly more than many on both sides here.
I'm not going to comment though - what's the point? People have a right to be bitter - but it won't solve anything. Other people can remain intransigent in ignorant selfdenial - that won't prove anything either; the argument is not worth a bucket of warm spit!:\

As to the thread question, without any doubt if Open Skies flies, then ultimately the Ts and Cs of every European Airline pilot will suffer. So I hope it doesn't. Succeed.

However:

1. Will I go on strike to support BACC - No. Can't afford to, and it would be illegal.:=

2. Will I stand on a picket line, join a march, honk as I go past - No. I don't believe in behaving like a union dork from the 70s when I also believe it is pointless and will achieve nothing. Just more posturing.:cool:

2. Will I offer my moral support - of course, it costs nothing to scroll a post on here in the full and certain knowledge that it's free and that it will affect precisely nothing.:hmm:

3. Do I think BACC will win - No.:uhoh:
Option a) The courts will probably say a strike is legal, but if they don't - BACC lose bigtime.:(

Option b) If they say it's legal, the threat remains and will cause BA management to negotiate a compromise, which will be a foot in the door, and which will precipitate the aforementioned fall in Ts and Cs. At the end of the day, being human, BACC will, just as they did with the pensions row, look after present members at the expense of future ones. That's the way it is folks. Anyone who thinks differently should re-read the posts about the pension row, remember all those threats to bring the company down if anything was changed, all the threats about really meaning it, the line in the sand, etc etc. Just meaningless trite propaganda.
We live in a world of change; change is inevitable, hence change will come. In industrial terms, change never involves the employee benefiting more than the employer (Descartes, Rousseau). Further, change always involves new and more efficient ways of functioning (Thos Paine).

Check your history books, stop squabbling - be glad you're not just starting out in the business. Forget this utterly pointless dispute, type "Peak Oil" into Google and consider how any of our futures look if we have more than five years or so still to pension. (Ah, yes, pension, well done BACC:rolleyes:)

[Tandemrotor]

I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed,

In that case, can you just remind TLP why you didn't ballot for strike action over access to mainline??

I'm genuinely interested.

[PoodleVelour]

Certainly.

We had only had company recognition of BALPA for a very short period of time, we had just integrated three airline identities into one with all the problems associated with that, we had a succession of BALPA head office assigned personnel changes and were basically new to the whole union thing.
We had expected help, assistance and advice from BACC, perhaps it was a mistake, but the majority of the agendae of the meetings and presentations (with one or two individual's notable exceptions) at that time were aimed (possibly understandably from their perspective) solely at securing the preservation of BAR pilots Ts, Cs and lifestyle. BACX was regarded as "Plastic BA" which irritated a number of senior and exceptionally well qualified personnel in BRAL, Brymon and Manx - this confusion spread throughout the membership and did not facilitate amity or progress at the meeting table. BACC simply would not discuss any seniority list issues, far less support them.
Quite possibly, and obviously I am now into speculation rather than history, had BACC extended assistance, seriously helpful advice and support as we knew they had with Cityflyer Mk 1, it might have been very different. The really odd thing was that the incoming BA DFO actually DID support the BACX CC aspirations for many things at the beginning, and was enthusiastic about us working with BACC.
Anyway, it was not to be. The BACC offer for the RJ/146 pilots must have designed by a political illiterate, there was no possibility of it ever being sold to the BACX workforce. Even with positively spun hindsight, the Emb and TP fleets would never have voted for it, hence there was no possibility of it ever being recommended. Regrettably, rightly or wrongly, it was perceived as more of the 'Plastic BA' attitude and as I recall what few cordial relations there were broke down quite swiftly after that. Also at that stage, as the fleet changes, base changes, management changes, total airline format changes gathered pace, there was simply no possibility of concentrating on any one issue, and to have recommended a strike ballot would have been meaningless as the day to day change, disruption and individual concerns were over riding. I would suggest that to push through a serious threat of industrial action, a totally united and focussed workforce is require, and for a variety of reasons, after BA became the owner of BACX, this was never achieved at any level - which was particularly irritating because the cultures within Manx, BRAL, and Brymon were actually mature albeit different.
I doubt if it was actually grand strategy on the part of BA or BACC which caused it all, I don't believe anyone was (or is) that clever. Certainly the BACX CC made mistakes, but they were largely errors of judgement due to complete inexperience in role. Nobody's fault, nobody was supposed or required to help out with advice and support, but I think there was great surprise on the BACX side that we were treated as "Plastic BA" by people we had initially considered to be new colleagues. Perhaps an expectation that BALPA would be a broader church on BA Group issues than proved to be the case.

Hope that helps a little, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. Pilots are peculiar creatures, there are still Thomsonfly pilots not happy about the Orion seniority issues, there are FCA pilots unhappy about the UK Leisure issues, there are even ex Manx pilots still unhappy about the Loganair seniority issues, and there isn't a Manx Airline any more!

Quocunque Jeceris Stabit!

[Tandemrotor]

Thank you, that is helpful and if I may say, an entirely understandable assessment.

One follow up question. When did the BACX CC request specific assistance from the BA CC (on ANY issues), and if it was denied, then on what grounds?

Thanks again.

TR

[PoodleVelour]

I would think you'd have to check the minutes for exactly what was said and by whom. Given the vagaries of this forum, unless I got it word perfect, I would be flamed, and as I mentioned earlier, I have no wish to comment - at least not in a way that takes sides.

In parenthesis, my opinion would be that the BACX CC were enthusiastic and keen to become part of BA. I think we all saw it as part of a great adventure - we'd been bought by the world's favourite, surely that had to be a good thing? Perhaps the BACC perceived this as being brash and impressionable, gauche even - I really don't know. I don't actually remember things ever getting as far as a formal request for help; certainly any interface where BACX movement onto the seniority list was discussed just resulted in what were seen initially as postponements, then put-downs. The impression was that we were a nuisance, and had been responsible for the demise of BAR - which was far more important. Again, with 20/20 hindsight, perhaps it was all a great misunderstanding. The endgame was BA management telling us it was up to BACC, and BACC saying it was up to management. We became disappointed and cynical, particularly because all the concessions were one-way, secondees, commands etc etc and rightly or wrongly some of our number decided we were being taken for a ride. Eventual pressure and repitition resulted in the RJ/146 offer. Coincidentally, if I remember aright, there were no CC reps from those Fleets, but even if there had been, I doubt it would have made any difference.
As a CC, we grew up quickly - I think it's a shame BA mainline guys here denigrate the BACX CC - it was no coincidence that nobody was voted off.The only changes over the next couple of years were people standing down for personal reasons - I know one was actually virtually pushed into a medical retirement, and another arguably hounded out following an MOR incident. Yet another mysteriously failed a Command Course. The BA management (who I think just danced as the strings were pulled from London) became much more authoritarian and unco-operative; there was so much work to do that seniority became a back burner, or even a dead duck to mix my metaphors. I don't believe there was ever any substantive opposition to what we did through that period, in fact quite the opposite.

Not one of the most relaxed periods of my life! Happier days now.

[Delvanious]

I tend to agree with Jack's a dull boy.

BA Pilots are taking commands from GSS First Officers because of BALPA.

As far as im aware GSS is owned by Atlas Air and was only set up to keep the UK CAA and the Unions happy.

GSS fly freight for other companys and only have some of their aircraft in BA colours.

So why do BA pilots not support the First Officers of GSS and let them have the commands they have earned ?

When DHL started flying freight charters for BA a few years back, in EX BA 757s , there were BA F/Os on PRUNE asking about the possibilities of getting direct entry commands at DHL.

BA is not the bench mark for all other airlines, when the lesser airlines of the world can't get pilots, they improve their terms and conditions, they don't ring the BA CC and ask whats going on at BA, If they did have BA,s terms and conditions they'd go bankrupt pretty quick.

Pilots never stay together as a group they don't support each other, BA pilots are proof of that at GSS, will BA pilots come out in support of say Silver Jet pilots if they were to go on strike, I don't think so.

Good Luck to you all.

[Tandemrotor]

I will support ANYONE who has the cojones to down the tools!

I just don't remember any of the afore mentioned groups actually doing it.

That's all.

And Devanious: Your first posting under THIS name???

Your phrasing reminds me somewhat of a contributor by the name of Min Drag, who we know has taken a position at OL.

Strange!

[Hand Solo]

GSS fly freight for other companys and only have some of their aircraft in BA colours.

Thats interesting, as when I recently spoke to a GSS pilot deadheading on one of my flights he said they didn't have any other customers. I guess they must have got a load more in the last 2 weeks.

will BA pilots come out in support of say Silver Jet pilots if they were to go on strike, I don't think so.

Because that would be illegal secondary action, leading to the pilots being immediately dismissed by BA and BALPA being sued for unlimited damages.

[Min Drag]

Previously I posted this:

Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?

Good question - overall I think in the interests of the industry as a whole the answer has to be yes.

That said, IMHO, there are one or two individuals posting on Pprune who are doing an injustice to their cause.

Any attempts at intimidation here do not do the majority of BA pilots any favours. Start calling people "Scabs" (charming term from the dark ages) if you must once you've got yourself a strike action. At the moment intimidation is likely to lose you support and harden the resolve of those considering Openskies.

The T's & C's offered by Openskies may not be as good as what's on offer at BA but the stark reality is compared to quite a few other companies they're not bad. The fact is people will be interested and apply no matter what is posted here.

There also seems to be an arrogance over the qualifications/selection into mainstream BA compared to OS. This is not helped wth quotes from BALPA spokesmen, like:

"This is going to create flight crews that are not as well-trained and experienced as those currently employed - it's a major problem."

and other references to less able/qualified pilots.

What unsubstantiated rubbish this is arrogant and insulting to the rest of the pilot community. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who chose not to apply to BA or even attended Cranebank and didn't quite fit their mould.

MD

My intention was to point out that there are a few individuals here on Pprune doing the 3,000 or so BA pilots an injustice with their attitude and leave it at that but it obviously touched a nerve in the way that the truth often does.

Tandemrotor - I think your two rotors are producing some weird harmonics cos you are totally wrong about me, however I must thank you for proving the point I was making.

I genuinely have absolutely no idea who the hell Delvanious is - perhaps the moderators or Delvanious himself could help here? I don't even know what GSS is let alone be able to give an opinion on it.

I can also assure you that just because you made a connection with me wanting to move to France (which didn't happen), does not mean I have a job with Openskies. I'm sorry you'll have to throw your "scab" abuse elsewhere, I most certainly do not have a job with Openskies and am in fact happily employed elsewhere. Back to detective school for you Sherlock.


The last time you made it personal and posted about me you went back and edited it later. Are you gonna do the same to this one in an attempt to stop yourself looking the a**e you clearly are?

BTW best of luck to the huge majority of BA pilots - none of us want or deserve an erosion of T's & C's.

MD:ok:

[bluepilot]

I have to agree having been a victim of tandems personal attempts to discredit myself.

Tandem just because someone does not have the same view as yourself does not mean that you should launch a personal attack on them by trying to discredit them, it does you and your cause no favours at all.

Sensible debate is healthy however.

I am glad most pilots who have entered this debate have shown their support for our BA collegues. It is also healthy that some pains from the past are discussed, people then hopefully learn from these mistakes and injustices to help to a better future............but then i always was an ideallist!

[Min Drag]

Hey bluepilot, are you me? Or maybe I'm you or maybe we're both Delvanious? You must have a job with Openskies. Maybe we all live in France, are all "scabs" and all have a job with Openskies. Lucky Openskies!!

Fortunately we all know that Double Whirling Washing Rotor doesn't represent your average BA mate.

MD OS DHL BMI RFA FRA RAF RN Wocker Wocker BA SN over yer shoulder paranoia cx ur six in yer wardrobe :ok:

Best of luck (despite Tandem) to the BA crowd.

[The Little Prince]

MinDrag said about Tandem:

an attempt to stop yourself looking the a**e you clearly are?

Heavens above, now you'll get no peace - but a bl00dy good comment. Quite accurate. It's an interesting point to note that the recall actions of Hand, Tandem and a few others, immediately on sensing any imagined, factually based criticism is to launch an Exocet. Really does nothing for your credibility or your case, it's counter-productive.

Bluepilot and MinDrag - nope, you're both working for BRAL, and I'm the launch A380 customer......LONG LIVE DELVANIOUS!!!!

Fact remains, BA pilots do not DESERVE our support or sympathy, but our own interests militate that we give it.

[Charizard]

Whether they deserve it or not will make no difference to the result.
They're doomed.
........and some of them deserve it.

[Tandemrotor]

It is also healthy that some pains from the past are discussed, people then hopefully learn from these mistakes and injustices to help to a better future

From where I'm standing, there were few mistakes, just a load of folks, who were not prepared to stand up for themselves, and now bellyache about the fact that those nasty BA pilots wouldn't fight their battles for them!

Sooner or later people have to take responsibility for their own situations.

If you wanted to be mainline, what did you do about it?

[Anodyne]

Should we support the BA pilots in this - I agree with TLP; unfortunately we probably should - BUT the current situation is partly of the BA CCs own making:
As a ‘rasher’ (ex BACON now working for FlyBe on reduced terms and conditions) Openskies seems a tempting step up that a number of my colleagues will take despite the bleating of BA pilots. Undoubtedly we the BACON pilots were at fault in spinelessly doing nothing while BA sold us and our terms and conditions down the river, but the BA CC, as the biggest and strongest single grouping within BALPA, could have shown leadership on behalf of the wider pilot community, (thats what a Union means) thus gaining general respect and support.
Moral arguments aside this could have been seen as enlightened self interest as the current level of inequality leads to those of us lower down the pecking order grabbing any opportunity that presents - irrespective of what IFALPA say.
In the case of BACON as in so many others (Dan Air, GSS, etc) the BA CC chose the path of narrow self interest and thereby lost the right to preach to the rest of us - you can’t have it both ways and say its your job to look after the BA membership only, and then expect the support of the general membership when it suits you.
It’s also sad to think what this says about BALPA - not so much a union, just a lose federation of individual interest groups most of whom will have to suck hind tit when the BA pilots want to feed.

[bluepilot]

oh god your at it again tandem, "from where i am standing there were few mistakes" and with that attitude you expect others to support your cause??? what an idiot, you are really harming your cause here pal.

What i did was fight it and I AM MAINLINE but not british airways.. KLM :D:D again you have made yourself look a right arse! go on edit your comment! or maybe just maybe you have the GUTS to appologise?

[Tandemrotor]

Apologise for telling the truth?

There's a novelty.

Actually bluepilot, it is you who may like to edit your post. I generally find p*ss poor spelling, and punctuation, tends to detract from the overall message!

[bluepilot]

along with 411A tandemrotor now on block list :)

[Min Drag]

Tandem, come on why aren't you responding to me? You make accusations you can't substantiate and then go off at someone else trying to divert the flack.

It was me, not bluepilot, who noticed you editing posts after you obviously sobered up! I intended to make the one post and leave it but you made this far to personal.

If you want to accuse me of being someone I'm not and I respond where's your spine? At least have the decency to defend your accusation and support the grounds on which you make it.

Who cares if Bluepilot alias me (and anyone else the voices in your sad head are telling you) are making spelling mistakes, it doesn't matter. You have no credibility and have brought any/all criticism upon yourself due to your arrogant, selfish, bombastic attitude.

Do yourself (and most of your colleagues) a favour and disappear.

MD:ok:

PS anyone reading this who thinks I'm being harsh please take the time to read thro' this thread to understand that I posted my opinion once a few days ago and was personally attacked by this individual and have had enough of his attempts at bullying & intimidation.

If his attitude represents that of the BA majority then good luck to Openskies and those that choose to go there to put the coffers in the bank to support their family's.

[Min Drag]

Peeps, check out the OS recruitment thread, Mr Doublerotorbrain has posted on their that I have a job with OS too!!!

Cuckooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo:ok:

[Hand Solo]

Do you really need to post the same thing twice on seperate threads?

[rhythm method]

God it's sooooooo good to be out from under the 'BA umbrella' which our idiotic parachuted-in 'management' :rolleyes: used to say was our great safety-net!!!

I've gone lo-co and I wish I had done it years ago!!!! Earning 50% more than they paid me AND I am home every night with my wife and kids, not living out of a suitcase. The colour of happiness..... ORANGE!!!!!!!! (And I can ignore the rantings of those who sought to freeze us out of any prospects because we had a few aircraft over 100 seats... heck, I was able to fly more passengers than Concorde crews! How did 'scope' cover that???!!!! :} )

[The Little Prince]

Now why didn't I think of this earlier...Tandem - you are the weakes link, GOODBYE!

Perfect, PPrune looks like a more normal world already.

Anodyne - that was such a great post, that I think we need reminding of it:

Should we support the BA pilots in this - I agree with TLP; unfortunately we probably should - BUT the current situation is partly of the BA CCs own making:
As a ‘rasher’ (ex BACON now working for FlyBe on reduced terms and conditions) Openskies seems a tempting step up that a number of my colleagues will take despite the bleating of BA pilots. Undoubtedly we the BACON pilots were at fault in spinelessly doing nothing while BA sold us and our terms and conditions down the river, but the BA CC, as the biggest and strongest single grouping within BALPA, could have shown leadership on behalf of the wider pilot community, (thats what a Union means) thus gaining general respect and support.
Moral arguments aside this could have been seen as enlightened self interest as the current level of inequality leads to those of us lower down the pecking order grabbing any opportunity that presents - irrespective of what IFALPA say.
In the case of BACON as in so many others (Dan Air, GSS, etc) the BA CC chose the path of narrow self interest and thereby lost the right to preach to the rest of us - you can’t have it both ways and say its your job to look after the BA membership only, and then expect the support of the general membership when it suits you.
It’s also sad to think what this says about BALPA - not so much a union, just a lose federation of individual interest groups most of whom will have to suck hind tit when the BA pilots want to feed.

The most important bit, that Tandem and Hand could muse over is:

(thats what a Union means)

Regrettably, I think we all really know what the BA in BALPA actually represents.

[Tandemrotor]

I have two people on my 'Ignore List'. It's a useful tool. FWIW, they are Walter Kennedy, and 411A. The reason being that neither of them know what they are talking about!

The problem for you TLP, is that I DO know what I am talking about, because I was there!

You just can't admit that there could possibly be any view other than your own!

The reason you didn't get the mainline access that you clearly so desperately wanted, was because you, (or your CC) weren't prepared to stand on your own two feet, and demand it! You just wanted somebody else to fight the battle for you, because you didn't have any balls!

The one thing that I can't quite get my head round is this: If access to mainline for BACX, was entirely within the gift of the BACC.(They just maliciously denied it to you???) Why is it that even with overwhelming support, and the threat of a damaging strike, the SAME organisation, can't secure access for OS pilots??? :confused:

Could it POSSIBLY be because access to the MSL is ENTIRELY under the control of British Airways Plc, and actually nothing to do with the BACC??

It's a thought!

Unfortunately you can't read my post (because you prefer not to listen to views which do not tally with your own) and therefore can't answer my question. However, everybody else can read it, and will no doubt draw there own conclusions.

Your loss I'm afraid.

(Sits back to a vision of TLP sticking his fingers firmly in both ears, and singing; "Nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you!") :}:}:}

[Charizard]

We certainly CAN draw our own conclusions.

I conclude you're a single minded, uncompromising blinkered misrepresentative ass!
You never answer a single question you are asked, nor do you address any points you cannot refute. I hope for the sake of BA you are not a typical Nigel.

(I think the current standpoint of Captain Walsh is probably to commence the formation of a more normal group of pilots than the one you purport to be part of, and presumably representative of - it can only be a good thing for the World's Most Arrogant Airline.
I am minded to write to Walsh and tell him firstly that he has my complete support for the project, and secondly that if he paid just a little more, I'd apply for a job as a direct entry TRE!)

[bluepilot]

such a fool that i am i unblocked tandem....couldnt resist seeing what he / she / it had to say in response.

the previous poster is correct, you cannot address any questions directly put to you, you just resort to personal put downs and attacks. you are totally incapable of admitting you are wrong (not a good thing for a pilot)....you pointed the finger straight at me and demanded what I had done as regard to joining mainline..........you spoke before thinking again. I have not been any part of BACX, now knowing the T and C I have no desire to be part of BA, my background is another national flag carrier across the sea WHICH I BATTLED AND WON MY RIGHT TO BE IN MAINLINE. Unfortunately even that was not a satisfactory outcome due to KLM abusing the selection process and rejecting many good people. The terms and conditions there are far superior to BA (check out on PPJN) perhaps you at BA would like to use KLM / AirFrance terms and conditions as a benchmark? But then that's now making me look arrogant and superior which I am not. Tandem you really have to stop this self destruct phase you are going through and stop using PPRUNE to vent your venom. Please for your own sake and those of your colleagues think before you post and accept that others may have a different slant on things, it really doesn't make them bad people.

Edited to add; i have removed my post earlier where i used inappropriate language in anger towards you tandem, much as you frustrate me it was wrong.

[The Little Prince]

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Tandemrotor is on your ignore list.

I have control!

bluepilot, it's suddenly all worth while!;)

[Tandemrotor]

bluepilot

I don't believe I have ever said you were BACX. I have always known who you work for. I absolutely, and unreservedly congratulate you for 'battling' to join mainline:

WHICH I BATTLED AND WON MY RIGHT TO BE IN MAINLINE

I know you were balloted for strike action, and posted your reply 'by return'. Well done, that is precisely what I did! Sometimes you have to be prepared to down the tools to achieve what you want. In other words, and as I have previously stated, "take responsibility for your own situation."

In fairness to TLP, he wasn't given the opportunity to strike for what he wanted. I can see how he might criticise his own CC for that situation, but feel it is disingenuous in the extreme, to blame BA pilots, and their CC!

As for "bad people", I cannot claim to know who TLP is, though I believe we may have been at the same base. However, without fail every BACX pilot I flew with, and the overwhelming majority I met, were great people.

They WERE shafted. I WOULD have supported them given the opportunity! TLP and I just disagree about who was responsible.

I'm sure we would all agree over far more than we disagree. It's simply different points of view, that's all.

Perhaps TLP is too immature to handle a different point of view? :rolleyes:

"Nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you!" :}:}:}
(I left the playground behind some considerable number of years ago!)

[bluepilot]

Different points of view are on thing tandem, trying to bully others and discredit them is quite another:

to quote you quoting me :

""Quote:
It is also healthy that some pains from the past are discussed, people then hopefully learn from these mistakes and injustices to help to a better future

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From where I'm standing, there were few mistakes, just a load of folks, who were not prepared to stand up for themselves, and now bellyache about the fact that those nasty BA pilots wouldn't fight their battles for them!

Sooner or later people have to take responsibility for their own situations.

If you wanted to be mainline, what did you do about it?""

To me that looks by implication you considered me to be BACX!

You also state that "you know what you are talking about because you were there" regarding BACX, a quick look into your history as far back as 2004 i see that you were a member of the queens flying club, therefore you were not there for the full term at least!! but you do say you flew with them? have i really missed something here tandem? Dates dont seem to add up.

Finally we do agree on something, they were shafted!

I think this pointless bashing has gone quite far enough, lets get back to the subject.......BA pilots still do have my support.

[oapilot]

The reason you didn't get the mainline access that you clearly so desperately wanted, was because you, (or your CC) weren't prepared to stand on your own two feet, and demand it!

Why is it that even with overwhelming support, and the threat of a damaging strike, the SAME organisation, can't secure access for OS pilots???

Am I missing something here? Are the airframes being removed from BA mainline use, thus denying BA mainline pilots work on existing routes? If not, why not let the OS pilots "stand on their own two feet and demand it" too, if that's what they decide they want?

[Tandemrotor]

bluepilot

I never intended to imply you were BACX, I always knew you were not. I intended the general meaning of "you" and not the specific.

I would not claim to have been there, if I was not! :=

[bluepilot]

tandem , i edited my response before your reply, please re-read.

Now back to the subject :)

[Mike Mercury]

You - (Tandemrotor) - also state that "you know what you are talking about because you were there" regarding BACX, a quick look into your history as far back as 2004 i see that you were a member of the queens flying club, therefore you were not there for the full term at least!! but you do say you flew with them? have i really missed something here tandem? Dates dont seem to add up.




Interesting observation bluepilot, I see what you mean. Tandem first appears around 2004, claiming to be an ex SF Chinook pilot. His posts from that era certainly seem a little more measured, controlled and logical than his present ones, but then again, maybe that's what a few years in BA do for you.
What I find remarkable is the consistent cr@p and sh1t he spouts now, because he would have swiftly become and remained the Squadron SLJO on any of the outfits I flew with (Both dark and light blue!) He would never have got much past Pilot Officer rank (or actually even attained a commission) given the degree of maturity he seems to like to display. I find his credibility more than a little strained given that he first appears in 2004, yet somehow claims to have taken part in the BACX/Connect debacle.
Perhaps he was fast-tracked to command having had his qualities recognised by BA management? What do you think?

Still, there are a lot of people on here who pretend, and assume the cloak of careers they wish they'd been good enough for. (But maybe the Air Force still had Sergeant-Pilots in TR's day?)

[Hand Solo]

Lots of people in BA are still members of the Queens flying club whilst flying for BA. I believe they are called reservists. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but TR is and was exactly what he says.

[Mike Mercury]

Just goes to show even Adastral got it wrong on occasion. Interesting quote from TR circa the past, I think we can all see where he's coming from, and how he was motivated in terms of stealing and retaining a command from the BACX boys and girls.

To put my cards on the table, I am mainline, longhaul with a real desire to return to the regions. I will almost certainly take a pay cut to do so! Should that be a problem for anyone? I have to say that from where I am, Hands Solo speaks for many of us.

For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .


In fact, come to think of it, I now believe I know who Sergeant Pilot TR is - I recall a certain Secondee snagging the inertial reel on his seatbelt in....hmm, I believe it was Madrid. Long story, but if I recollect correctly, he had it repaired, and then tested in it in front of the gingerbeer so thoroughly that he knackered it completely. Didn't wish to fly home in the locked position, so the aircraft and the sector were grounded for 24 hours while a new belt was flown out. New Captains eh?
And you wonder why they can't run a terminal....... never mind an airline!

[Hand Solo]

Do you mean 'stealing' back one of those commands that BACX stole from BAR? Remind me who was flying BHX-MAD the year before?

Incidentally, will we be seeing an apology for this comment

there are a lot of people on here who pretend, and assume the cloak of careers they wish they'd been good enough for

now that your Poirot like detective skills have been revealed to be mistaken?

[Mike Mercury]

What makes you think anyone believes YOU any more than your so-called colleague? After all, you are BA.

If he wants to be believed, let's have a CV, name/rank/number, if not, well, I suppose this IS a rumour network!:p

I see there's no refuting the seatbelt story - I remember another of you guys grounding the jet because there were no wipes for the headsets! You couldn't make this stuff up. :ok:

[Hand Solo]

You don't have to believe me, but if you are ex-mob you'd at least understand the concept of reserve service, and the ability to fly for an airline and serve the country over the same period of time. I mean you weren't making that up about your service were you? Now how about you tell us about those tailstrikes?

[bluepilot]

A very good example of taking a small part of someones posting history on pprune and twisting it in an attmpt to discredit the poster, something mr tandemrotor has done on a regular basis. Perhaps this small example will teach tandem that is is dangerous to go down these lines to bully and discredit people, I hope the lesson has been learned. PPRUNE is a great medium for discussion and debate, abuse should never be tolerated.

[Tandemrotor]

Perhaps this small example will teach tandem

Oh, I don't think I'll be taking any lessons from anyone here my friend!

For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .

What a perfectly appropriate quote. Believe it or not, I had actually forgotten what a pathetic whinging bunch some of the BACE pilots were. Thanks for reminding everyone!

Mike Mercury

"Stealing a command"! - You're hilarious!

As for CV, name/rank/number...

I can do much better than that. Just send me a pm, and I'll meet up if you like?

No? Thought not!

By the way, can't help you with the inertia reel story. But then so much of your accusations are ignorant speculation, it's hardly surprising!

Mike Mercury wrote:
1. BACEX and GB etc etc are perfectly placed to make a good return on these same routes.


Whoops! Looks like you were wide of the mark on that one too, eh MM?

And the next one please!!

[The Little Prince]

Fortunately Tandem is someone who I don't have to read any more. HURRAH!


Handyboy - you're on thin ice there - should we discuss the secondees who scraped the RJ tails, or should we discuss the Secondee Training Captain who nearly piled one in by retracting flaps when the F/O called for the gear?
Careful my friend, not sure how much more mailine washing there is to come out of this, but it's your call!

[Mike Mercury]

bluepilot goes up in my estimation with every post.

He said:

twisting it in an attempt to discredit the poster, something mr tandemrotor has done on a regular basis. Perhaps this small example will teach tandem that is is dangerous to go down these lines to bully and discredit people, I hope the lesson has been learned.


There you go sport, read em and weep! Anyone who had to work with your disgruntled and workshy cabin crew of that period will entirely understand the inherent contradiction in your comment. I'm sure they picked all there mannerisms and habits up from their former 'colleagues"

It really is light comedy relief dealing with you Tandem, SLJO was probably something to which you aspired! I doubt you've ever taken lessons from anyone, you're too far up your stern orifice to listen. Ahhhh - maybe it was YOU who scraped one of our tails!, lol, trying to practice a tactical landing and getting it badly wrong eh!

[Hand Solo]

Sorry Mike, the tailscrapes were your team. And to be fair you've been doing exactly what bluepilot described too. You may consider the BAR cabin crew disgruntled and workshy (they weren't) but at least they were there, unlike your lot who were always a hundred miles away at the wrong airport waiting for a taxi to the right airport.

[Oswaldo]

I remember that business with the Flap retraction, a BA TRAINING CAPTAIN too. Wasn't there an AAIB investigation? Could have been more spectacular than the triple 7. Birmingham if I recollect aright - can you help us out here HS or TR??? Anyone you know???
Smacks of T5 doesn't it?

Oh, and I remember the cabin crew too, they were not used to departing and arriving on time, I can't describe the amount of occasions when we'd be asked to taxi slowly in so as to arrive late and trigger the next FDP level payment. And the sulks when we said "NO". Fortunately there were always enough of our own crews to make drinking the coffee safe. Real set of prima donnas, just like their erstwhile pointy-end mates.

[bluepilot]

Much to my better judgement I removed tandemrotor for my ignore list, but he /she / it just behaves like a cornered rat never admitting any wrong and worse still not learning from mistakes, in fact i am very concerned that this person is at the controls of a commercial airliner. Obviously he / she / it is emotionally unstable and incapable of rational debate. So he / she / it can re-join 411A on the ignore list.

And mr Tandem, i fully expect you to blow raspberrys behind my back as you have done with little Prince. My final words to you are....why did YOU put 411A onto your ignore list? Probably for the same reason you have joined him on mine. :ugh:

[Hand Solo]

Wasn't a BA Training Captain moving the flap lever though was it?;) Can't think why the cabin crew weren't used to arriving and departing on time, we used to have 90% punctuality on the BHX 319 fleet. They must have forgotten what is was like to be on time when you boys took over with your permatech jets.

[757flyer]

Me thinks Hand Solo and Tandemrotor are the same person!

[oapilot]

You may consider the BAR cabin crew disgruntled and workshy (they weren't)

You forgot overpaid:p And sorry, but in my opinion some were. If they wanted to be in mainline on proper aeroplanes they could have easily gone back to London.

My first encouter with a BAR dragon was on day three of line training in MAN, when some handbag faced old boot pointed out I was sitting in the BA section of the crewroom and should move.......How I laughed. Then I laughed even more when I realised she was being serious.

We can all quote examples because no one is perfect. Honestly Hand, I don't know why you've such a chip on your shoulder about BACX. Yes there were some oddballs there, I've met some oddballs who are BA pilots too. Mainline guys may have missed some command opportunities with the skypigs coming to BACX, I'm sure some BACX guys missed command opportunities because of the secondies - no-ones fault but the devious management gits at BA, I'm afraid playing us all for suckers. That includes the poodles inflicted upon us as BACX managers.

At least BA got some LHR slots out of the deal. What did we get? Shafted. Not by BA pilots, but by BA management who never wanted a regional airline, just a tool to sort out the BAR issue. There are a lot of quietly (and noisily)pee'd off ex BACX people out there, but the issue is with BA. I repeat, management, not pilots, so drop it.

Maybe someone should set up a thread on Jetblast where all the ex BACX and BA crews can vent their spleens about every perceived and actual slight ever commited by the other side. :ugh:

Must go, Grand Designs is on, I want to watch the Grand Master of patronising in action, I might learn something.

[Hand Solo]

Actually OA, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about BACX pilots as a whole. I've drunk enough beer with them in the bars of Glasgow and Birmingham to know there were some good eggs amongst them, I've flown with some of them at mainline and I think your assessment of there being good and bad in both companies is spot on. What I do have a beef about is a handful of ex-BACX types telling the world that the whole companys woes were exclusively the fault of the big, bad BACC, accusing the BAR pilots of 'stealing' commands at their own bases, falsely attributing any airborne stuff up to BA pilots (I recognise screw ups happen, it's the nature of the business, but trying to pin them all on the secondees riles) and generally implying that they would have conquered the world if only we'd fought a few battles for them. If they could knock that off then we could all go back to doing something more worthwhile with our time.

It's a crazy idea but how about we draw a line under things at that?

[oapilot]

Seconded.

Now back to Mr McCloud.

[Captain Jumbo]

Hand Solo and Tandem the same person??

Interesting thesis.
Same chips on both shoulders, same illogical approach to all who disagree with them, same 'big lie' technique to advance debate, same intransigence reference the slightest deviation from the BA line, same biaised and inaccurate propaganda, same 'strike to the death' for all industrial action (though none actually supported except their own), same phraseology, same mutual support, same silly names, same lack of syntax and poor spelling, same distortion of history, same intolerance for reasoned argument.
God help us all if this is the best BA can do to advance their cause.


I rest my case, thank you bluepilot.

(BA, but there we go, what a surprise!)

[Hand Solo]

Lack of syntax and poor spelling? Please....you're just making yourself look silly. You're late to the party, it was all done and dusted two posts ago.

[Captain Jumbo]

Somehow I doubt that!!

As long as yourself and TR are around and spouting BS, there will be someone here to try and help you guys recognise reality, to counsel you both where we think it may help, to advise on the quantities of Diazepam you require, to suggest rest and retirement homes (as early as possible) for you, to help with your modular CRM recurrent training wrt communication, self-expression, accurate and comprehensive recall and team building.........................oh no, where there's a will there's a way, and where psychiatric help is needed chaps, I'm sure one of us will be gald to help and advise!

Keep taking the pills - in fact, take more, lots more!!!

[Hand Solo]

It's over CJ, go back under the rock you crawled from beneath. You are a second rate mud slinger anyway. Now if TLP came out to play it might be different but I suspect he'll be honouring the very sensible truce brokered by oapilot. Perhaps you could try the jetblast forum, or maybe airliners.net, or just anywhere where they might find your put-downs incisive or witty, rather than just jaded and cliched. You bore us all.

[Captain Jumbo]

Merde, one of the best sources of entertainment is winding up you and TR and watching you react as predictably as a clockwork dog on the floor of a market toystall.
Mind you, you're both cheaper than a clockwork toy!

More, more - look forward to seeing you in my RHS.

[Hand Solo]

Me too. Can't wait to do your final command check at OS.;)

[Captain Jumbo]

In your dreams my boy. It takes more than attitude to be a Captain, let alone a Trainer - oops, except for BA, where trainers can confuse gear and flaps at your leisure without criticism! (Was that you perchance??)
I'm sure OS will be a FAR superior and more profitable product.

[Kurtz]

THE FUTURE!!

British Airways has launched its first direct services between the US and mainland Europe, with daily flights from New York to Brussels and Paris.
BA will set up a new subsidiary airline called Open Skies, which plans to start flying a Boeing 757 from Brussels or Paris in June.

The airline hopes its new carrier will operate six 757s by 2010.

The move comes after the European Union and US backed an "open skies" deal to liberalise transatlantic air travel.

The EU deal eases restrictions on travel between Europe and the US. It will also challenge BA's dominance at Heathrow airport.

Until now, BA has only been allowed to fly to the US directly from the UK.

Three other airlines - Virgin Atlantic, American Airlines and United Airlines - have also been permitted to operate flights from Heathrow to the US.

Supporters of the open skies deal say it will boost competition between airlines and lead to lower air fares.

It also may make it easier for BA to compete on other international routes outside of the UK.

'Major step'

BA chief executive Willie Walsh said: "This is an exciting new venture for us and we're confident that it will be a great success as we build on the strength of BA's brand in the US and Europe.

"By naming the airline Open Skies, we're celebrating the first major step in 60 years towards a liberalised US-EU aviation market which means we can fly between any US and EU destination.

"It also signals our determination to lobby for further liberalisation in this market when talks between the EU and US take place later this year," he said.

The new airline's managing director will be Dale Moss, BA's former director of worldwide sales, and the airline is registered in the UK.

The aircraft on the planned new route will carry up to 82 passengers on Boeing 757 aircraft with three onboard cabin classes: 24 business seats, 28 premium economy seats and 30 economy.

Union concerns

The planned airline is facing concerns from the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), which is set to meet BA soon to discuss the issue further.

The union wants BA's existing pilots to have the chance to apply for work with the new airline before the firm embarks on hiring new staff.

Jim McAuslan, Balpa general secretary, said: "Balpa welcomes BA's decision to innovate and establish a wholly owned subsidiary company to take advantage of the new open skies agreement between the US and EU.

"But we have issues with BA on how the new service should be structured.

"Having worked so hard to secure success for BA, its pilots do not want to see its brand or its safety record put at risk.
"The new subsidiary can only fly successfully with the full support of BA's pilot force."

Mr Walsh said terms and conditions for the new venture would be different from those in BA's main operation, but said he was confident concerns could be assuaged.

BA shares were down 3% at 275 pence in late afternoon trade in London.




I say again:

"Having worked so hard to secure success for BA, its pilots do not want to see its brand or its safety record put at risk.

What a laugh - you mean - OMG, this will probably work better than our own high cost inefficient legacy carrier baseline - we'd better go on strike for the benefit of the public. ILMAO!!!! Shower of fools living in the past!!!

And as for:

"The new subsidiary can only fly successfully with the full support of BA's pilot force."

well, the less the BA pilot force has to do with it the more likley it is to succeed. No contest, no question.

[Hand Solo]

I think it might be you living in the past Kurtz, that press release is old. Do yourself a favour and pop over to the other OS thread to see the latest release, there's a good chap.

[Kurtz]

I'll honk as I drive past you in the queue for the dole!

[overstress]

Jetblast would be the best place for this undignified thread now, surely? Reminds me of those fights between Hugh Grant and Colin thingy in the Bridget Jones movies. :sad:

There will be no strike now until July, anyway.

[Hand Solo]

Why will you be driving in the queue for the dole? Why don't you just go on foot like everyone else?

[Kurtz]

July, lol, there will be no strike.

THERE WILL BE NO STRIKE.

there will be no strike because when it comes to it, BA pilots don't have the balls!

As for the dole queue - well, it ain't me threatening IA. Better to speak softly and carry a big stick.

[Hand Solo]

Must have caught that from you boys.;) Lend us your lube will you mate? (if you have any left)

[overstress]

there will be no strike because when it comes to it, BA pilots don't have the balls!

Speak for yourself, PM me and we can meet up and I'll explain it face to face.

If your mum lets you out for that long... :}:}:}:}:}

(only a few posts until someone accuses me of being Hand Solo or Tandem!)

[Kurtz]

Prediction # 1

By Christmas 2008, Open Skies will be a successful transatlantic pax carrier from at least two, and probably three, European airports to major US destinations.

Prediction # 2

There will have been no strike by British Airways pilots.

Prediction # 3

BALPA. [and hence most BA contributors to this forum] will applaud their victory at achieving whatever face saving concessions Willie has decided to give them.

Question:

How long before Open Skies is subbing BA cancellations, and then going onwards to actually operate UK LH routes?
I hope it will be possible to buy OS shares at some stage.

[exeng]

Your error with prediction 2 also makes prediction 3 false.

A Pilots strike following the T5 debacle will mean Willie and his leadership team will take a walk into the wilderness. BALPA and the majority of BA Pilots know this.

Rocky times ahead for shareholders no doubt, but massive changes at the top should see things right in the long term. BA has been a very sucessful airline at times during the past and with the right actions it can again be.


Regards
Exeng

[Hulkomaniac]

Well I suppose everything's a gamble - but look how often Rod and Bob were written off on this forum. Granted events overtook Bob eventually, but his tails lived on for a long time.
OS is too profitable a concept not to go ahead. And I'll be right there!

[exeng]

I agree that Open Skies will go ahead and that it should prove to be profitable; however I also believe that the crewing concept will be slightly different from that currently proposed by the current BA leadership team.

Incidentally I believe Eddington always steered BA with a steady hand, Ayling however was a different matter - he was removed so he could cause no further damage, much as Walsh I suspect will be in due course. I think that this time the it will not only be Walsh who will take some pain.

I would imagine that the only reason the tailfins remained for so long was because of the expense of a dedicated re-paint for each aircraft - each will have been done when sufficient down time for maintenance occurred.

I wish you all the best in your future career with Open Skies, I'm sure it will be an exciting time for all of you.


Regards
Exeng

[Oswaldo]

Interesting to speculate how much WW will get as a bung if he and others actually are removed (and I agree with exeng it's more likely than not).
If only a single FTSE 100 Company could bring itself to dispose of top mangement the way they dispose of everyone else who screws up, then I'm sure it would be of benefit to the whole business community.

Nice post exeng, very courteous too. Have a good day!

[Maximuss]

Those predictions may be right or wrong, but I don't think I'd be handing in my notice to take a position with OS just yet.
It's not the IFALPA stance that would worry me (didn't achieve much for the HK boyos did they?) far less the BACC; it's just that until things look settled, well, they're not settled are they? Jam tomorrow is all well and good, but you need to eat today as well.

God bless all on board!

[411A]

BALPA and the majority of BA Pilots know this.


Sad fact is, most pilots know very little about the operation of an airline and the management actions that are accepted by shareholders.
T5 will calm down and work reasonably well in a few weeks.
If WW can show that the pilots (BALPA) are being unreasonable with their demands, shareholders will give the affirmative nod to management.
Will it turn ugly?
Nope, don't think so.
The BA pilots don't have the starch in 'em.
About the only thing that the BA pilots can hope to achieve is some kind of assurance that OS will not disrupt BA schedules, so that they (the BA pilots) can claim success.

Kurtz has it right, unless of course BA pilots have been sniffing the wrong stuff for too long...:rolleyes:

[Sheepslagger]

In the days when we could run ballots on here, I thought everyone may be interested in the results of one relating to the BACC, and what everyone thought at that time.

View Poll Results:
Do BACC have the best interests of CitiExpress at heart with their Scope Clause ??

Yes 32 15.92%

No 73 36.32%

Nope, only their own wallets!!! 96 47.76%

Tous c'a change, c'est toute la meme chose! :E

[overstress]

The only ballot that matters is not the one on an internet forum.

Que les un tas de vieilles conneries

[rhythm method]

Why is it that almost every thread about BA mainline quickly descends into this slagging match??? (Maybe they deserve it! :E)

What really p!sses me off, is that all the mainline guys I personally know are REALLY nice, down-to-earth lads, and unfortunately you get the same arrogant jumped-up t0ssers posting here who end up tarring the entire company with the same brush. (And I do honestly believe that they are a minority with a HHHUUUGGGEEE chip on their shoulders.)

The problem is that, they are the reason that most will feel no sympathy with the normal day-to-day guys/gals who suffer at the hands of Willie Walsh.

I personally cannot help but gloat at the shambles WW has created for himself, both with T5 and OS, and cherish the thought of him squirming after his abysmal treatment of BACX staff (and BAR, who he royally sh@fted and put on the dole queue). Unfortunately, unlike the grassroots staff at those companies, he will not be financially inconvenienced, as his personal pension has been very well topped up! Funny how Rod Eddington no longer looks like such a scheister!

[XL5]

411A - Sad fact is, most pilots know very little about the operation of an airline and the management actions that are accepted by shareholders.
T5 will calm down and work reasonably well in a few weeks.
If WW can show that the pilots (BALPA) are being unreasonable with their demands, shareholders will give the affirmative nod to management.



The shareholders can affirmatively nod to BA management until their collective heads fall off - the fact remains that a sufficiently unified labour force prepared to strike over the issue will render its implementation untenable.

The shareholders are irrelevant and don't enter into the equation, they're simply along for the ride with the controlling factor being the willingness (or unwillingness) of the pilots to strike.

[Fox One]

BA is a dead firm walking. It is a relic of a day gone by and is not fit for the modern world of CAT.

Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and the likes of Hand Solo and Tandem Rotor areintent on ensuring the company has no future.

Best thing would be for it to be shut down, sell off all the slots at Heathrow and give good value to the custmers.

I used to always make the effort to support BA come hell or high water especially as a passenger but not now.

ABBA - Anything But BA

Hand, Tandem, care to comment?

[gsm738]

Interesting thread relating to Openskies here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=319542&page=2

[Hand Solo]

Yes:

the likes of Hand Solo and Tandem Rotor are intent on ensuring the company has no future.

I find it interesting that you ascribe motives to me despite knowing neither myself nor my motives. The rest of your quotation is just plain bolleaux written by chrisbl who clearly doesn't find it necessary to justify such nonsense with any hard facts.

[Fox One]

Bullseye!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hand Solo]

Sorry, were you trying to reel me in by writing rubbish Fox? If you wish to look a tit then you certainly have hit the bull.;)

PS I found this in one of your previous posts:

And you haven't mentioned the CitiExpress Gatwick base yet.

I'd check your six o clock if I were you -

'the Times they are a Changin'..........'

How's that CitiExpress Gatwick base coming along?;)

[757flyer]

yup, convinced now. Tandemrotor and Hand solo are the same person. Same bullying traits.

[Hand Solo]

Aaah the 'bullying' accusation. Don't like what they have to say, must be bullying then! If your arguments are so weak that any counter argument is considered bullying then perhaps you shouldn't be allowed on the internet unsupervised. Maybe some of my 'victims' can sue Danny for emotional trauma!

[757flyer]

not denying you and tandemrotor are one and the same then?

[Hand Solo]

No I'm not Tandem Rotor, and if you suggest it again I'll steal your dinner money.:}

[3Greens]

Foxone

You really are a tit mate.

"ba has no future" - amazing for a company with a £7billion turnover.

"it's planes are poor" - Ok the small number of 757's left and old A320s' are a bit shabby but the 60 odd almost new Airbii and 45 or so 777s'? Have you actually been on a BA plane lately?

I hardly ever come on here anymore now as the amount of ****e written is getting beyond a joke. Also every thread; in time seems to degenerate into bashing either BA or Ryanair.

[overstress]

foxone is the same person as 757flyer, 's obvious!

[Fox One]

Well, after BAConnect, oops, BACitflyer Express, oops, BACitiExpress, oops, CityflyerExpress Ltd....are quietly absorbed into mainline in 18 months(ish) time, still on their sh1te Ts and Cs, you will then inevitably see the spread of those Ts and Cs to the the Gatwick base, and also to the London City base.
Meanwhile, OS will have formed, and will be taking business more profitably away from selected mainline routes. This will be a trend which will increase over the next few years.
Inevitably my dear playground bully, the times they are indeed a changin', they've crept up on you and you didn't notice until it was too late. Oh, I'm sure the compromise will be dressed up as a BALPA win, but let's face it - you've had erosion of those Ts and Cs in real terms for quite a while now, and with the cost of oil and inflation generally, not to mention the LIBOR effect being passed on to industry borrowings and leverage - (a particular problem for BA) - the good times are well and truly over.
But I don't hold grudges, you - (or Hand Solo) - can be my co-pilot (PNF) any time!:ok: If you're grown up enough to fly long haul, we could even be a heavy crew - I'll get the first round just to show there's no hard feelings!

And no, I'm not proud to worker harder than you for less than you, but I need the job, my family need the income, and if it means taking your job - I suppose you'll find yourself in an inevitably shrinking quad (playground to you old lad).
Do I care? Is the Pope a Protestant?

[the heavy heavy]

fox one.


And no, I'm not proud to worker harder than you for less than you, but I need the job, my family need the income, and if it means taking your job - I suppose you'll find yourself in an inevitably shrinking quad (playground to you old lad).

oh my god, another brilliant quote from an industry bottom feeder. You guys are incredible. just to get facts straight its working harder for peanuts.

But I don't hold grudges, you - (or Hand Solo) - can be my co-pilot (PNF) any time!:ok: If you're grown up enough to fly long haul, we could even be a heavy crew - I'll get the first round just to show there's no hard feelings!


anybody who wants to do back to back jfk's 3 times a month must be pathetically desperate to do long haul. they are either such a poor standard of pilot that they are unable to get a job flying long haul with any other operator or one whose present long haul experience is on MS FS2000. last time i checked they where planning to do all there trips 2 man, not sure that stealin mitt planning any heavy crews (maybe it's new banter that you don't get).

Whats worse is that you insinuate that this will be a pay rise for you! how desperate must you be? just how poor a candidate for a decent job must you be? I can only guess that anybody wanting a job for OS has bombed out everywhere else!

fox 3 kill the fwit in the rj!

[Shaka Zulu]

Don't worry the heavy heavy.
This is a guy that hasnt got anything relevant to say looking at his previous posts.
Just opinionated and not open to arguments.
It's a shame that this is what we are up against.

So in the meantime I let the foresight of the 'new' BACC do the talking.

[the heavy heavy]

reading his posts do make me feel wonderfully able and successfull though :O

fox one is an interesting choice of name. i doubt very much its a term he has ever used in the air? :confused:

[Hand Solo]

Well, after BAConnect, oops, BACitflyer Express, oops, BACitiExpress, oops, CityflyerExpress Ltd....are quietly absorbed into mainline in 18 months(ish) time, still on their sh1te Ts and Cs, you will then inevitably see the spread of those Ts and Cs to the the Gatwick base, and also to the London City base.

Yeah, just like they did when (the much larger) Cityflyer Express was merged into EOG. Clearly a man who doesn't concern himself with the lessons of history.

[757flyer]

seems to have gone very quiet about OS, have the problems with BALPA been resolved? I gather they now have their AOC.

[4468]

"It's quiet. Too quiet!"

[Carnage Matey!]

The issue goes to the High Court on May 19th. BA have had to disclose all documentation related to OS to the court. In 10 days well see just what their assurances are worth.

[bluepilot]

Are OS due to commence service soon? What will happen to the pilots already flying for them? If Balpa gets its way will they be integrated into the master seniority list or tagged on the bottom? Interesting for some of the BA retired pilots who have joined OS, one minute they are top of the list then they are bottom!!

[Fox One]

From your choice of callsign old lad; youd only ever have called RABBIT RABBIT when you heard mine own.

Oh and Handyboy -

Yeah, just like they did when (the much larger) Cityflyer Express was merged into EOG. Clearly a man who doesn't concern himself with the lessons of history.
Pity you didnt do the same with the much smaller BACX......but of course you didnt need to, did you....

[4468]

If Balpa gets its way will they be integrated into the master seniority list or tagged on the bottom?

Contrary to popular opinion, it is not in the gift of BALPA to decide who BA Plc chooses to employ.

OS pilots were recruited to 'different' criteria to mainline (according to BA) BA may choose not to retain them at all, in preference to granting them access to mainline fleets.

Absolutely nothing is certain!

However, they will all have realised the uncertain position they put themselves in when they chose to defy the IFALPA recruitment ban. With such a tiny number of individuals affected, and all with less than 2 years in the company, I am unsure as to what protection from redundancy they could expect?

BA, under WW is now more 'slash and burn' than 'caring employer'!

[Pontiuspilot]

Hear hear - can you see the headlines - BA makes pilots redundant, BA breaks employment rules, BA breaks contracts, BA breaks European law, BA appear in the European court of Human Rights, more Sunday Broadsheet front pages......it's enough to make you realise that BALPA would be on their case, wouldn't that make for an interesting thread on here!
Obviously Hand Solo would support ANY vocal pilot group trying to protect their jobs!
Yup, I think our careers with OS are safe.

[randomair]

Well a lot of you guys will get what you wanted, a back door into BA.
Expect a very quiet time down route as you'll struggle to find a skipper that will join you in the bar. As for cabin crew....well it's BA crew after all.. :}

[Hand Solo]

Welcome back PontiousPilot/ROTPS. I think you may have slightly misjudged BA management if you think they give a jot about bad headlines. BA could of course tag you all on to the bottom of the mainline seniority list, just like they did with Cityflyer. Of course if you then fail to make the grade within mainline they won't hesitate to chop you, just like they did with some Cityflyer pilots. That'll give some people something to think about if they've repeatedly failed to make the grade in mainline.

[pilotbear]

of course, modern management believe that any headline is free publicity. BA will pick and choose who they want by selective failing of OPC/LPC.

[4468]

Pontiuspilot
Hear hear - can you see the headlines - BA makes pilots redundant, BA breaks employment rules, BA breaks contracts, BA breaks European law, BA appear in the European court of Human Rights, more Sunday Broadsheet front pages......it's enough to make you realise that BALPA would be on their case, wouldn't that make for an interesting thread on here!
Obviously Hand Solo would support ANY vocal pilot group trying to protect their jobs!
Yup, I think our careers with OS are safe.

The point I am making is this. I believe I may be correct in saying that you need to spend two years with an employer before you receive any protection from redundancy. BA making even a couple of dozen pilots 'legally' redundant (some of whom are pensioners anyway!) is unlikely to make any headlines at all! In any case, as has been mentioned, there are other ways of sifting the wheat from the chaff.

As far as "BALPA would be on their case". That is precisely why the recruitment ban was published. You were warned, and have chosen to operate outside of union protections, and are therefore on your own. Though I very much doubt you are a member anyway!

Of course the most interesting implication is in your assertion that "BA makes pilots redundant," breaks rules, law, contracts etc....

But we are told that 'apparently' this is NOT BA it is an entirely new company named Openskies! Though I do have a vague recollection of others wishing to be BA pilots when it suited, but separate when it did not! :=

There are many threats to this fledgling airline, only one of which is BALPA's action. There will be NO headlines anywhere, when it folds. Where did you read about Maxjet, and it's redundant pilots? :rolleyes:

[4468]

It would be interesting though that potentially an OS pilot would be trained, licensed and deemed legally safe to operate the aircraft for pax revenue services one day, and potentially chopped the next by BA.

"interesting"?

To whom? :confused:

Exclusively to you I suspect.

[Pontiuspilot]

BA Standards? BA Standards? I recall BA cadets being chopped by BRAL when on attachment, and then being given a substantial number of extra sim sessions by mainline to get them through!

4468 - I didn't mention Maxjet, or mean to anyway. My point really is that regardless of the legal realities, I doubt even BA management would like to see even more broadsheet front pages, regardless of the provenance. The pax figures speak for themselves in April.
Regarding BALPA, again, a front page giving the other side of the story would make interesting reading, more on "The British Airways Line Pilots Association etc etc. I'm sure that will generate more public sympathy. After all, the only purpose of front pages is to sell newspapers, they are often, (like Union and Management statements), a little light on the 'actualite'.
Actually though, I think - getting back to the main thread - that it's irrelevant whether BA pilots deserve or get support from other pilot groups. Human nature being what it is, no-one will ever feel sorry for the City Financial sector redundancies, and nor will they for BA (or any) airline pilots who are perceived to be overpaid.

BTW Hand Solo, just for the record, when you say:
BA could of course tag you all on to the bottom of the mainline seniority list, just like they did with Cityflyer

Let's remember that only applied to Cityflier Mk One. You changed the rules for BACX and BAConnect, and the experience level of CityFlier Mk 2 shows how much people are expecting this time around, as so many people have left. Of course, you still have the nerve to demand LHS jobs for your mainline pals in Cityflier Mk 2, but you withhold reciprocity - as usual!

[Hand Solo]

Let's remember that only applied to Cityflier Mk One. You changed the rules for BACX and BAConnect, and the experience level of CityFlier Mk 2 shows how much people are expecting this time around, as so many people have left. Of course, you still have the nerve to demand LHS jobs for your mainline pals in Cityflier Mk 2, but you withhold reciprocity - as usual!

CityFlyer Mk 1 was the only operation merged into BA Mainline. BACX/Connect was never merged. The rules were not changed, merger rules simply did not apply to a non-merged operation. The LHS jobs in CityFlyer Mk2were a condition of the scope agreement attached to the use of the 16(?) specified RJ100s which pre-dates CityFlyer Mk2.

it's irrelevant whether BA pilots deserve or get support from other pilot groups. Human nature being what it is, no-one will ever feel sorry for the City Financial sector redundancies, and nor will they for BA (or any) airline pilots who are perceived to be overpaid.

That's one thing we can agree on.

[4468]

Pontius

I think all I'm trying to say is, you could all potentially find yourselves on a very stickey wicket. Inspite of your obvious low regard for the futures of myself, and my colleagues, I genuinely hope you are not caught out!

I suspect there would be very little interest from the press.

I believe you may have had some previous experience with BA management, and will be very well aware of exactly how you are likely to be treated. I can't believe you've fallen for it again! Different names, same b@!!sh!t.

:rolleyes:

[Pontiuspilot]

4468 - Thanks for that. It may sound odd, but I have no personal low regard for any of the professional standards of BA - other than the ethical standards in their management - however there is such a perceived disingenuous arrogance and hubris displayed by so many BA personalities on here that I feel it necessary to redress the balance from time to time with a reminder of the more glaring logical inconsistencies that they propound.
Anyway, thank you for your concerns - I hope they are not needed, and all the best to yourself.

From a more global viewpoint, I believe the days of the Legacy carrier are well and truly over. In some respects this is why I believe the abstract concept of OS is the only one likely to succeed. Oil prices coupled with the apparent inability of most large National Carriers to implement and enjoy economies of scale as found in other multi-national industries mean that they will be encountering growing major business problems. If you ally that with an apparent ability to shoot yourself in both feet and the bum at the same time in publicity terms, then I doubt even the most adventurous of market forecasters could really see anything but trouble ahead. BA needed to have merged along the lines of the model of AF - not that I believe this will necessarily work for all the same reasons, however the size and scope mean that it has the resilience and strength, not to mention the multi national governmental support - to last a lot longer. (Neither does it have the dreadful debt and leverage ratios possessed by BA)
The UK Government possesses neither the imagination nor the chutzpah of the Italians - it more resembles the Belgians or the Swiss. That, I believe is the medium term future for BA, not identical, but a much slimmed down long haul product, solely ex LHR, with perhaps two or three wholely owned subsidiaries like Cityflyer and OS doing the less glamorous donkey work. However, a job is a job; neither Red Robbo, Arthur Scargill or the scaly toothy Dinosaurs from the Jurassic ever believed what was going to happen to them until it was too late. Too many vested interests in BA, from BALPA through BACC through all the 'support' services to change now.
-

[randomair]

I think there is another issue that could threaten openskies. BA at the moment is looking at alliances with American carriers and in the future possible mergers, although the latter is a bit more doubtful. However if we just look at the possible
'alliances' with American and more importantly Continental. If some deal was struck, presumably BA would retain its big wig status on the London-New York route (especially LHR). This would leave Continental with possibly a large presence in Gatwick, but definitely a opportunity to concentrate on the mainland Europe traffic.

Then to Continental's surprise they find they are competing with a BA product named Openskies...could this be an issue?

randomair

[Gypsy]

Maybe I haven't looked into this enough but as BA don't fly Paris to New York, in what way are OS pilots harming BA pilots.

How is this different to setting up GO back in the 90's?

[Hand Solo]

Article in todays FT quoting prices of all major carriers for a business class seat to dubai

BA £3500 return
Silverjet £1050 return

Question: Which of those two carriers went cap in hand to Dubai recently seeking a capital injection in order to keep it in business?

Maybe I haven't looked into this enough but as BA don't fly Paris to New York, in what way are OS pilots harming BA pilots.

How is this different to setting up GO back in the 90's?

No, you haven't looked into this enough. If you read any of the OS threads in their entirety instead of just tagging some comments on to the end of one you might learn something.

[Gypsy]

Yet another unhelpful reply - sorry I don't have hours and hours of spare time to wade through the whole thread.

PPRUNE is supposed to be a forum where professional people can discuss issues affecting or interesting them. I think the questions were quite valid and in any open debate should be able to attract a reasonable answer. If you are unable to justify your case with reasonable responses then perhaps your case is not so strong.

If BA were starting a subsidary and that subsidary was taking over existing BA routes and operating them with non BA mainline pilots then I can see a big issue with that.

Q1, Why is it an issue for an airline to start a subsidary and start new routes serving a different market with that subsidary?

Q2, Why is this any different to BA starting GO at STN some 10 years ago?

It is quite normal business practice for big companies to start subsidaries to serve different markets.

Assuming OS goes ahead, I predict that eventually BALPA or a European equivalent will seek recognition and gladly take the subscriptions from the very pilots they want to prevent getting the jobs now

[4468]

Gypsy

I had promised myself I would not write any more on this thread. However....

In response to your claim that Paris/ Brussels are somehow different markets, I would say this. BA runs an extensive European network, frequently bordering on losses. It does this for one major reason. To bring customers into Heathrow to connect with it's longhaul services.

Believe it or not, ticket prices from the continent into LHR, and out to LH destinations are frequently cheaper than to fly LHR direct to those same destinations. It's the way the business works.

BA has so far refused to disclose to ANYONE how many pax currently fly CDG/BRU-LHR-JFK. I wonder why??

Add to that the nightmare that is LHR, and it is easy to see that anyone who likes to fly BA's PREMIUM PRODUCT, would probably be quite pleased to fly direct CDG/BRU (anywhere you care to mention) to JFK etc. etc...avoiding LHR completely.

Since a significant proportion of OS pax would likely have otherwise transferred (albeit uneasily) through LHR, (and soon will not) it is very difficult to sustain the argument that this is somehow a 'different' market.

But of course everyone knows that OS has it's sights set on destinations much further afield than just North America. OS will grow exponentially once created! It will be able to operate any aircraft type to any destination.

Secondly however, in my personal opinion, 'Go' was indeed a different market. It operated, I believe, from Stanstead (no transfer pax) and offered a totally different product to mainline. In other words, it was aimed at different (new) customers. However much it grew it could complement mainline. Though in hindsight, and in all honesty, BALPA may take more interest if it were created today!

Thirdly, BALPA actually isn't trying to prevent ANY pilots from getting jobs. I don't believe there is a single pilot, certainly in BA, who would wish OS to be anything other than a great success for our company. It's expansion for heaven's sake, which is great! We are just concerned with developments we have seen elsewhere in the World where PRECISELY this kind of low key 'separate' start up, has lead to very significant downward pressure on the T&Cs of it's parent's employees.

BALPA have offered a no cost solution to BA, which would satisfy everyone.

Simply put OS pilots on the mainline seniority list.

Nothing else! No outrageous demands. Zilch. Rien. Zip.

BA are risking extremely damaging strike action to prevent this simple, and inexpensive solution.

Why???

It is crystal clear.

BA seeks to artificially create an internal market for it's employees, in which pilots have to 'compete' with each other for work! They will do this on the basis of only one criteria. Cost.

And so we all see our T&Cs deteriorate, until this job pays the absolute minimum. If it happens to us, it will be coming to a workplace near you very soon!

Ensuring we are all on the same seniority list, with the same opportunities, and aspirations, hopefully means, we all stick up for each other. We don't allow a false internal market to develop as we all have a vested interest in each others T&Cs. Simple.

Non of my colleagues have any particular axe to grind with those taking positions with OS. In fact I wish them all the best, and look forward to welcoming them onto the mainline seniority list. However, hopefully I have explained why we are prepared to bring down this whole circus of clowns that BA has become, before we let this one pass!

We have little to lose.

I'm going to return to a 'watching brief' here again I think!

[bluepilot]

4468.

May i say it is refreshing to read such a good post from a BA mainline pilot stating very good reasons for their case against BA re Openskies. May I again wish all at BA success with your action against BA.

I hope the likes of Hand Solo and Tandemrotor can learn from your excellent post. 4468 has managed to sell a very good case without threats of "scabs" or mud slinging at other pilot groups. I would say this post should get most pilots on side. :O

[Min Drag]

I have to agree with Bluepilot - an excellent post by 4468.

MD

[SR71]

But he is being somewhat disengenuous when he says

BALPA have offered a no cost solution to BA, which would satisfy everyone.

Simply put OS pilots on the mainline seniority list.

Nothing else! No outrageous demands. Zilch. Rien. Zip.

BA are risking extremely damaging strike action to prevent this simple, and inexpensive solution.


because he knows that if this is the case, then the cost saving to BA for each individual pilot only exists for as long as he decides to remain on OS T&C's...

And because they're perceived as such a pittance, one must assume that, therefore, the saving will only persist for as long as their initial freeze on "type"...

So, arguably a "no cost" solution as 4468 quite rightly says, but thats not quite BA's point...

:ok:

[wee one]

Anyone who is stupid enough or desperate enough to sign the Open skies contract deserves all they get.

Desperate in one way or another. :ok:

[TheKabaka]

because he knows that if this is the case, then the cost saving to BA for each individual pilot only exists for as long as he decides to remain on OS T&C's...

And because they're perceived as such a pittance, one must assume that, therefore, the saving will only persist for as long as their initial freeze on "type"...



There are ways around these things such as an agreement as to which pay point OS guys would come in on, it is also somewhat balanced by the fact someone has to be doing the mainline job anyway, and the possibility of mainline pilots joining OS (on OS terms).

The big point is BALPA have conceeded the OS t&c completely, ie BA can offer any contact they wish. Any costs increases will be small and BALPA have said they will talk to BA to address any concerns they may have.

In short 4468 is correct as to the real reason why BA don't want a common list. Unfortunatly for BA this has been tried before and the pilots know about it as shown by a thumping ballot result.

Since I am here a note on the court case, BA say we are impeding thier right to set up a buissness in Europe. Nonsense we want it to be a success and are on record saying so. I remember when project lauren was unvieled the intrest and excitement generated amonst pilots, as 4468 says welcoming expansion. All this could be resolved easily but BA don't want to because their long term objective can not be met if there is common list.

[Pontiuspilot]

Congratulations on eliciting a sensible reply from a BA pilot on here - don't ever expect much in the way of a helpful response from Hand Solo - other than patronising and bullying diatribes.

4468 provided a good answer, however the fact remains that all too clearly, the answer does NOT satisfy all parts of the equation. The so-called facts all depend on your viewpoint and how strategically you are looking; not to mention the personal implications of your current perspective.
I remember once, as a Fleet Manager receiving letters of job application from people desperate to break into aviation offering to type rate themselves and then work for NOTHING for a year to show their mettle. At the time that was not general policy - (If MOL is reading this, I'm on 10%) - however as long as you have people like that out there, it justifies (in management terms) the use of such employment instruments. And why not. If you own shares, you expect the Board of the relevant company to perform and pay you a dividend (erm....not BA shares then). If they fail, you sell and don't invest again. How many of you check the employment policies of the Blue Chips you invest in?
Hmmm, thought so, it's all a sort of NIMBYism isn't it.

[Shaka Zulu]

Can I add my thanks to the post made by 4468, so eloquently written I'd have to work for hours to compile such a post.

We are not being disengenous when it comes to talking with BA and trying to negotiate a workable solution and addressing concerns of both parties.

I'd also welcome any pilot getting recruited for OS however I have severe doubts about the sustainability of this operation with the rocketing oil prices.
Be careful out there guys, there will be some fallout over this one, don't get caught giving up a contract with another carrier before you know what the fallout of this dispute is going to be.

regards from another ba pilot

[Uncle Silas]

4468 said:
Add to that the nightmare that is LHR, and it is easy to see that anyone who likes to fly BA's PREMIUM PRODUCT, would probably be quite pleased to fly direct CDG/BRU (anywhere you care to mention) to JFK etc. etc...avoiding LHR completely.

I completely agree with the logic. However, if the market now permits BA (or anyone else) to operate, say CDG or BRU to JFK, then why not do that? I would have thought, given the percentage of an operation's overhead that is represented by pilot wages, that the potential profitability would not be that much different, and the pax would not then be flying a second rate BA service.
More, the competition would presumably have to work harder if up against the premium product.
What am I missing?
It can't be that LHR is bypassed, since that's going to happen anyway. Surely it can't be just the profit margin? I reckon it's the strategic thing and that BA Board, given their indebtedness (HAND SOLO TAKE NOTE - I SUSPECT THAT SILVERJET OWE A LOT LESS THAN BA AND THAT THEY ARE BETTER LEVERAGED AS WELL!) have realised that their business model needs to change. Not unnaturally, the staff don't agree. Glad I'm not on board, the ship is listing, the pax are disembarking to the lifeboats and the crew are mutinying - got to be good for the rest of us!:E

[Hand Solo]

Evening Silas. Many thanks for your truly insightful statement that Silverjet owe a lot less than BA. Of course it doesn't take a financial genius to realise that a sub-prime, two 757 airline is likely to have a lot less debt than an airline with 250+ aircraft. As for excessive leveraging, well thats the second time in as many days I've read the accusation levelled without any facts to support it. BA remains in the fairly reasonable financial position it was left in by Dr Andrew Sentence, who did such a good job he's now part of the Bank of Englands Monetary Policy Committee. I don't see any headlines relating to the impending bankruptcy of BA and for that there is a reason. I'm sure Silverjet would be glad to be in a similar position.

Pontiouspilot/ROTPS: You do like to bandy the word 'bully' around. I took the liberty of looking up the word bully in the OED:

bully: a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people

Now as I've never actually met you it's rather difficult to claim that you are somehow weaker than I am. That leads to the logical conclusion that if you feel you are being bullied then you must believe you are somehow weaker, and I can only conclude that it must be your arguments that are weaker. These claims of 'bullying' are rather like some of the spurious the claims of 'racism' that pervade society these days. If you are losing the argument on facts then level a claim of bullying or racism and you trump the argument. Fortunately that doesn't apply here.

So, back to addressing the issue. I've no doubt that as a fleet manager you did encounter the desperate types who'd be wiling to work for nothing. I've no doubt BA encounter similar types of people, and I've no doubt that some of the people who have been selected to fly for Open Skies are not too far removed from them. I can even see the managers temptation to employ them; cheap, compliant, malleable individuals who will never answer back, you'd be a fool not to try to hire a workforce such as that. However that is a pathetically simplistic approach, and it speaks volumes of the pathetically simplistic BA management that they believed they could get away with that and nobody would notice. Any decent management team would see beyond simple attempts to save a few £££ and recognise the wider industrial situation. They would recognise that the engine of their profitability is, and will remain, the core business. They would recognise that the core business can provide significant advantages in manpower, flexibility and resources that a faux-stand-alone unit could never achieve. They would recognise that you achieve far more working with your crucial staff than working against them. Instead, they are gambling on a sh1t-or-bust , ego-driven operation launched despite a perfect storm of dire financial circumstances in the hope that a pretend premium product will seize market share from well established local operators who have the time, effort and resources to throw against them. Meanwhile the clowns at Waterworld cross their fingers and hope that they win a court case whilst they try to work out how their 'Biz' seat will actually get through the door of their aircraft and how they are going to fasten it to a floor that Boeing says isn't strong enough to take it's weight. If you think you have a career with this joke of an outfit then good luck to you.

[wee one]

The open skies contract is doing the rounds courtesey of a no thank you type.
Anyone who has signed that is truly desperate or an indication of the generation that are simultaneously inheritng and destroying this industry.
It makes RYR look like manor from heaven.
I know the word scab is innapropiate in this context, but its not needed. What is the point of living in a free society if you are willing to sign all your rights away. In my opinion absolutely shocking exploitative and more akin to a workhouse agreement. unbelievable abdication of ones dignity and profession.
Anal prostitute would be more appropiate:E

[Gypsy]

4468 - thanks for taking the time to put together you reply to my earlier questions.

The connecting market from Paris etc to LHR is a debatable point as with that logic it would be difficult for any BA subsidary to fly from anywhere to the US if there was flight via LHR which could connect with a BA mainline service. Whilst there maybe an impact on BA transit pax numbers, the biggest threat with OS would be to Air France at CDG or any other major airline based at the origin airport; eg. LH in FRA or MUN but that supposedly is what competition is all about.

One of the most significant problems facing BA in my opinion is LHR itself - the way I look at it, LHR is such a horrible airport compared to many other major hubs in Europe and given a choice of going transatlantic from eg. AMS or LHR, I'd certainly not choose to connect through LHR and would go direct from AMS.

As far as the OS T's and C's are concerned I don't think they are as bad as some of the posts here suggest and many pilots flying jets with UK operators now would find them an improvement - can you blame these guys for being interested in the jobs?

[Orvil]

Hi all,
Very interesting thread. I was wondering when BALPA will be taking a "robust" position with regard to SSTR and line training?

Just been looking at an advert on this website for SSTR + line training at £30000 to £40000 with no pay, not even sector pay. http://www.simulator-experience.com/ HURRY ONLY 32 PLACES THIS YEAR !!!

It seems to me that BALPA only gets involved when it concerns BA and not the wider aviation community. Quite ironic really as most of the new FO's will be coming from the Low Cost Airlines who have paid for all their training.
No "Union" position on these people? After all these people (under duress in trying to get a job) have lowered T & C's.

Anyway, I don't think OS will make it off the ground. We're already in recession and the first thing to be cut is air travel.

Orvil

[wiggy]

Could I be brave enough to suggest that many of us here agree with your view that SSTRs have endangered T&Cs across the industry - but having said that what exactly do you suggest BALPA "do" about SSTR"s?

FWIW in my ideal World I wish BALPA would stop running job seekers conferences and stop telling people what a wonderful job it alledgedly is...then again I'm notoriously meanspirited:ok:

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

People shouldn't be so quick to judge BA pilots based on what they read on here.

I'm sure that at least a few of the supposed BA pilots on pprune are people with nothing to do with BA pretending to be arrogant just to cause trouble. Sad I know but true.

I've met a few BA pilots (sitting on their own in Orlando after their cabin crew have abandoned them) and they seemed nice enough blokes. I'm sure the many cadets I met with their 'I'm better than you' attitude were just in the minority.

I do agree though that if openskies goes ahead, there will be many other airlines trying to do the same thing.

It doesn't really matter if you like BA or whatever you THINK their pilots to be like.

If openskies goes ahead your airline will be next.

[Orvil]

Hi Wiggy,
Thanks for your comments.

I have researched all of these "SSTR and line training companies" and it's sad to say that most are run by current line Pilots in high management positions.

What BALPA could do is expel them from the Union (if they're members of course). They may change their minds about exploiting in-experienced Pilots when they have to shop individually for the financial benefits they recieve from BALPA.

BALPA could also speak to the airlines who are taking these people on. I may seem naive but I keep ready on this website and others that we are a profession. May be management Pilots could start acting professionaly rather than dodgy fly-by-night market traders.

I know, one of the arguments is that "if people are willing to pay then so be it". May be we should take the same argument for other professions. Let's use Doctors- for their internship, Accountants - articles and Lawyers (ok they can pay ;-) ). Would you let a Doctor mess about with your insides knowing they had to borrow £40,000 for the pleasure and then not get paid!

Thanks once again. I await the ridicule.

Orvil

[kj990]

Orvil,

Don't worry, the borrowing binge of New Labour's brave new world is over. We have witnessed the end of credit expansion. The SSTR's were the golden generation.

A new era is about to begin, without credit.

[757flyer]

So BALPA have withdrawn.....and I guess that makes any IFALPA ban null and void too.

[Captain Jumbo]

Erm - Hand - please don't disappoint.
Please give us all some insightful comment.
Surely there's a way to present this as a BACC triumph?

Question is really how many people's contributions have already been wasted on BA line pilots ludicrous aspirations!

[757flyer]

Yes....interesting that handshandy and tandemrotor have nothing to say now.....;)

[Saint Peter]

Oh I'm sure they will - just a matter of time. It should be interesting.:bored:

[plane_kerazy]

I agree dick in all honesty the bloke doesnt seem to know what side he is on what a complete ass!!!! those ba pilots do deserve support from us after all it isnt just them as individuals it effects in the future it effects there families too they are fighting for the security of there future.

[hunterboy]

I look forward to reading the comments of any pilot that joins OS in a years time. I should imagine it will be along the lines of the BACX comments about piss poor BA seconded mgmt, poor T & C's, and a general lack of support. Unfortunately, your choices will be to suck it up, or to leave the company. Don't think for one minute that you will be missed. The Chief Pilot of OS is a notorious cost cutter in BA who cheerfully made all BA terminal staff redundant (100's) outside of London. What do you think his reaction will be when his pilots come begging for a pay increase knowing that their will be more wannabees like yourselves willing to undercut their colleagues to get their foot in the door? Sadly, I think that many OS joiners will be rueing the day that BALPA withdrew from this courtcase. I foresee former OS pilots joining big, bad BA in the future, having wasted 5 years of their lives in OS thinking , surely it has to get better than this? Ask any BACX guy for the answer.

[bluepilot]

Indeed it is interesting that Hand Solo and Tandemrotor are noted by their silence now, much as some would like to gloat I feel that this is not a good result for UK pilots in general. As i stated on another thread managers of airlines all over the country will be rubbing their hands in glee at backdown of BALPA. I wish good luck to all those who join Openskies. Having read now the contract and terms and conditions for this outfit I feel that you will be very vulnerable. This is made much worse by the fact that you are not on the mainline seniority list.

[Megaton]

And BA have now withdrawn from their counter-claim. Little consolation in the overall scheme of things.

[Tandemrotor]

Ahem.

Some of you obviously missed my post in R&N on page 3 of the thread entitled "BALPA withdraw from Openskies court case." Dated 23 May.

I admit it. I am absolutely gutted at this outcome. I can't think of any other way to describe it other than a complete and utter disaster! I feel badly let down. All those bitter BA pilot haters, go ahead, have a field day at our expense. Fill your boots.

For my troubles, I received several abusive PMs from anonymous idiots, who wouldn't have the balls to say anything to my face. (and at least one HAS had the opportunity!) I admit, I have replied in kind!

I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions! :rolleyes:

I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster.

OK. The big question for all you gleeful revellers: Who thinks the defeat of BALPA in court by BA will improve T&Cs in this industry??

Therein lies the whole point of this thread!

[hunterboy]

RG is the new man...not ex BACX...just been through the same BA mgmt course.....and is a lot brighter than TDLF. Expect it to be worse than BACX, especially with that contract and no right of access to mainline. Judging by some of the posts on here though, they should be very happy there. Good Luck

[Gypsy]

To quote from Tandemrotor: -

"For my troubles, I received several abusive PMs from anonymous idiots, who wouldn't have the balls to say anything to my face. (and at least one HAS had the opportunity!) I admit, I have replied in kind!

I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions!

I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster"

1, Your first point - despite the obvious quality of BA training (I mean it) you obviously haven't learnt one of the basic fundamentals of CRM - namely 'behaviour breeds behaviour' and the need to always remain Adult even when those around you are being childish or parental.

2, I get rather fed up of pompous posts from a few within BA about how wonderfully better than everyone else they. TR - your second and third points - having seen BA recruit some pretty obnoxious individuals I wouldn't be too sure that the guys not accepted are inferior. I acknowledge that BA in general have some excellent people but nothing is 100% and at times I can assure you that BA have rejected some good guys and taken some that other employers were very glad to see the back of. I was also once in an expat national carrier when a retiree BA Capt joined and needed extra sectors to get checked out of line training - a rare event maybe but nevertheless enough to possibly shatter TR's delusion of superiority. All airlines make occasional errors in selection and I hasten to add I have friends within BA and colleagues who are ex BA who are excellent characters and pilots. I expect many BA pilots cringe at posts by TR and others like him.

3, As far as OS is concerned I really think this was a misjudged episode by BALPA and BA pilots - OS a/c are no more BA a/c than GO's were - OS is a subsidary company with a seperate AOC = seperate terms and conditions etc etc. If OS wasn't targeting premium class pax and longhaul then we wouldn't have heard much about it as we didn't about GO which many who object to OS probably saw as a tatty little shorthaul operator which they didn't really want to dirty their premium class hands to be associated with anyway.

Before the expected insults come back, I've never applied to BA - it just never matched my needs but I'm sure it is great airline with many great people in it and like everywhere else, some not so great.

The truth is that sitting up the front of your Boeing or Airbus, you can't tell what the paint scheme is on the outside and whether the pax are in 29 inch econ seats or flat beds, they all deserve the same professionalism and levels of flight safety and comfort that we all strive to provide.

PS: I never worked for Go either