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View Full Version : Since when has Ryanair been "Europe's Largest Airline" -PPrune Advertising Banner


frazhm
14th Feb 2002, 16:58
I am intrigued as to when MOL became the boss of "Europe's Largest Airline" I know he has a tendancy towards the blarney but this is surprisingly unambiguous. Or does he mean his is the largest airline at some of the more obscure airports Ryanair fly to????

Whatever you think about the guy and his company -it keeps these pages goin whether we like it or not!!

<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Findo
14th Feb 2002, 22:04
Could be something to do with market capitalisation. I think the recent figures showed their figures were bigger than any others in Europe.

Hudson Bay
14th Feb 2002, 23:26
The guy is Irish! Need I say more?

hobie
14th Feb 2002, 23:35
think the market value is indeed the basis of the statement ....... Ryanair is presently valued at aprox 1.5 x the value of BA ...... guess that makes it fairly big! .....

updated for Feb. 10th valuations (report date). .MKT CAP in STG (millions). .BA - 2120. .Ryanair - 2938

("Big" as used above is probably the wrong word - "valuable" is probably a better choice)

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: hobie ]</p>

Steepclimb
15th Feb 2002, 00:07
It all depends on just how much of a pedant you are. Just how do you define larger and bigger?. .BA is bigger than Ryanair but Ryanair is worth more that BA. Does that make it larger? Certainly more valuable. . .Well we know what they mean and the way things are going there will only be one airline in Europe soon, with a mostly blue livery. The question is which one??. .Bigger or larger?

simbad3000
15th Feb 2002, 01:55
Whilst it may be true that Ryanair's market capitalisation of GBP 3.14 bn is greater than British Airways' GBP 2.16 bn, try to remeber that little European airline called Lufthansa with a market capitalisation of GBP 3.94 bn. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

frazhm
15th Feb 2002, 02:41
I think Churchill had it right about statistics- “lies, damn lies etc... “Ryanair is NOT the largest airline in Europe.

I seem to recall last year the ludicrously high "paper" value of "tech" companies. At one stage didn't Amazon.com supposedly have a higher value than Boeing!!!!

Is this an example of MOL using statistics to suit his purpose? I suspect so.. .On the majority of criteria:- number of employees/aircraft/routes/RPK/ASK/turnover or even in-flight coffee makers (ha-ha!!)- Ryanair is still a minnow.

At the moment no-frills carriers are enjoying a surge in business based on the perceived public premise that they are always cheaper than the traditional opposition, but as we see on numerous other threads this is not always the case. I do feel that this bubble will burst and until then we are left with the preposterous banner at PPrune

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P Factor
15th Feb 2002, 03:23
Hudson Bay: Yes you do need to say more. What are you on about?

AiryFairy
15th Feb 2002, 04:32
If Ryanair is "Europe's Largest airline" then BA must be "The World's Favourite airline".. .Yeah Right!. .We're pilots on this site - so bullshit repellant comes as standard issue - doesn't it?

"P Factor" - Here's a good idea; why not change the subject of this thread completely and have a long and pointless discussion about the perceived qualities of the Irish. Lets start with:- "MOL is a typical Irishman - always ready to start a fight and tells the truth like a dockyard clock".. .Go on pick this up and run with it; it will be really interesting - not!

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: AiryFairy ]</p>

hobie
15th Feb 2002, 11:48
want to start a row? ..... just mention "Ryanair" ...... it works every time .....

flypastpastfast
15th Feb 2002, 13:46
Market capitalisation - as fickle as the UK weather. Remember the Dot coms.

Usual Ryanair piffle.

ElNino
15th Feb 2002, 13:52
Frazhm:. .Ryanair may be a minnow in terms of employees (and cost structures in general) compared to BA, which may explain why it is more valuable.. .They also carry more pax out of London airports than BA do. . .Comparing Ryans market value to the market value of tech companies during the dot com boom is ridiculous. Tech companies had no profits and no assets. Ryanair has massive profits and big solid chunks of aluminium called aircraft. . .The reason people perceive the low co's they're the cheapest is their hugely successful advertising. EI have now launched a low cost ad campaign, which is changing perceptions. However BA's latest campaign is not likely to appeal to the low fare customer. No, or wrong, advertising will result in anyone being taken to the cleaners.

Hudson Bay:. .Please continue...

frazhm
15th Feb 2002, 15:21
ElNino

Although I do not have the figures to hand, and I have not got the time to research it, but I find it difficult to believe that FR carries more pax out of EGSS/EGGW/EGKK than BA carries out of EGLL/EGKK.

Am I right, or can you prove me wrong?

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SIMDATE
15th Feb 2002, 19:06
Frazhm you know what you're right old bean the bubble will burst…. Ryanair never have the fares quoted so how do they get people to fly with them? They have grown their traffic from 1M pax in 1992 to 10M in 2002 – that’s a lot of pissed off people who thought they were going to get a 9 fare but in fact were coerced into paying say 109.

FR’s plan according to your well-researched thesis is to hoodwink the rest of Europe over 40M pax in the next 8 years. That’s a lot of dumb people travelling to out of town airports to fly on non existent low fares.

Sorry to burst your bubble Frazham – you give Fr more credit than they deserve – they’re running an airline not a magic show.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: SIMDATE ]</p>

Justforkix
15th Feb 2002, 19:34
I'm just waiting for the balloon to burst.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Justforkix ]</p>

Pete.S
15th Feb 2002, 22:31
Just looked out in the street and saw two vehicles. One was a Porsche and the other a 15 year old 7.5 tonne van. No matter how long I look at them I still can't seem to make the Porsche look bigger than the van, even if it is worth more :) :)

jsf
15th Feb 2002, 22:39
Pete S

Nice analogy. If you follow it through to its logical conclusion then I assume that this means that although Ryanair hasn't got the same carrying capacity as BA they get you there in more style and comfort and a lot faster than BA.

Now I am confused

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hobie
15th Feb 2002, 22:42
I was told by a very influential guy in the Airline Business, who really knows what's going on, ..... . ."Ryanair will be "on the ground within a year !!!!!" . . . .(this was at least ten years ago)

Ireland's Call
15th Feb 2002, 22:48
Err, guys there's no big mystery about Market Capitalisation you know, it's ctually quite simple, so for those with slow brains, it is the share price multiplied by the number of shares issued. It's not a subjective financial statement but simple financial fact, so if FR's Mkt Cap is bigger then BA's, then it's bigger then BA's! There's nothing dishonest or "dodgy" about it!

Some of you should rally get out more, your obsession with Ryanair is comical.

mainfrog2
15th Feb 2002, 23:00
I think the constant need to respond to sniping about ryanair is also just as comical. If it's all perfect then ignore them.

AJ
16th Feb 2002, 00:04
Mainfrog,

There is a need to respond to what amounts to a large amount of ignorant bull__ spouted about Ryanair, by those who actually don't have a clue.

You know what they say, 'where ignorance is present, fantasy reigns!'

As to the indefensible speculation about the 'Ryanair bubble burst'-er....I guess that means the SW, AirTran, Frontier bubbles still have to burst too, right?

A lot of this thread is made up of the very same speculation you all heavily criticise when a major airliner incident occurs....

flypastpastfast
16th Feb 2002, 00:25
Further to above post re:slow brains.

Share prices ARE subjective, and are determined in any free market by anticipated growth/current growth/how much you like company/is it worth a gamble/ etc..etc... I could go on. Some people may even buy shares in a particular company because they like the stationery. Daft, but true.

So, Whilst the current market capitalisation is a fact (which I don't deny), that value is based on the perception of all participating players in the given market. By its nature, IT IS A VERY SUBJECTIVE VALUATION. Ask two stockbrokers and they often give differing assessments for the same business.

As I have said before, it does not mean the business will be profitable or even exist a year from now. ( I should point out this is not a desire for ryanair or any airline to go under, just a fact).

. .To try to claim that Ryanair is Europe's biggest airline, is like trying to claim that BA is the world's favourite airline.

scroggs
16th Feb 2002, 00:26
As I understand it, the ad claimed that Ryanair was the biggest airline in Europe. By what criteria? On fleet size, departures, capitalisation, passenger figures, and anything else I can think of, it is eclipsed by other airlines (this is not just a comparison between Ryan and BA). So, as I see it, Ryanair is using misleading advertising. Again.. .I'd say that there isn't much future in that, as a couple of court cases against FR have recently shown. Is reasonable, accurate advertising beyond them? After all, they've got plenty they can legitimately shout about!

chrishowley
16th Feb 2002, 01:28
thanks for finally adding reason to the post flypastpastfast.

I think a comparison with the dot coms is fair because of the similarities. People are excited about the lowcost carriers at the moment because they are generating and receiving a lot of publicity. Hence people are buying the shares and the price is rising. This may be because people are not considering the potential future earnings of the business at all or are very optimistic about the potential earnings. This is exactly what happened with the dot coms and they too became horribly overvalued -as we all found out!

Now if you were to ask me which company has the greater future earnings I would reckon BA which would then suggest that Ryanair is overpriced.

Now the technical geeky bit - if Ryanair is indeed overpriced and this can be exploited then this is know as 'Stock Market Inefficiency'.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: ExiledTyke ]</p>

simbad3000
16th Feb 2002, 01:36
ExiledTyke: The comparison with the dot.com companies starts and ends with the "excitment". They have nothing else in common because Ryanair actually does make....

...PROFIT (and lots of it).

chrishowley
16th Feb 2002, 02:06
Now there I agree with you. It is true that the dot coms were not making any profit and didn't look as though they were ever going to but the markets seemed to convince themselves that one day they would.

I apologise if I gave the impression that I did not think that Ryanair was a profitable company - no one needs my opinions on that the financial reports speak for themsleves. The only point I am making (which I think we may agree on as your reference to excitement suggests) is that the company may be overvalued.

Now personally I would not expect to see Ryanair go the same way as the dotcoms but historically over valued businesses can get in to trouble - presumably becuase they find it too easy to raise debt which they then cannot afford to finance.

Whether or not Ryanair is overpriced or not, well only the future can tell.

Like others I have no ill feeling towards Ryanair. Just want to contribute to the quality of the discussion.

HugMonster
16th Feb 2002, 02:29
AJ, firstly, just because people are outside Ryanair doesn't mean they don't know a lot about what goes on inside.

Secondly, the bubble bursting reference was not to low-cost carriers. SW's bubble will not burst in the foreseeable future because they take care of their aircraft, their crews as if they were family, and their passengers as if they value their custom.

Ireland's Call
16th Feb 2002, 14:12
As pointed out you can't compare Ryanair to the Dot-coms because of course Ryanair make money in the here and now. They don't promise to make money 5 or 10 years down the line so there's no bubble to burst, they pull in huge revenues and have costs tightly controlled. I mean that's it, that's what every business should strive for.

For an airline to report an operating margin of 25% as Ryanair did at the end of last year is quite remarkable, especially bearing in mind the industry average amongst the top 150 airlines is 4.2%!!! BA's by the way was 1.57% Ryanairs profit margin was 23% again remarkable when the industry average was 1.1% BA'a was -1.34%.

Another key statistic is the companies Return On Equity, Ryans is 20% while BA's is -.44% this tells you that Ryanair are far more effective at using reinvested earnings to generate additional earnings, in other words they're putting good money back into the company while BA simply don't have the money to do that as their margins are so low.. .The only companies that have a bigger Mkt Cap than Ryan are Southwest and Lufthansa groupthat includes all Lufthansas ancillary services like Lufthansa maintenance etc.. .From a financial point of view Ryanair are a remarkable airline that have produced incredibly impressive results in a notoriously difficult industry. You surely must give credit to them for that.

Trislander
16th Feb 2002, 22:26
It probably means that they are the largest low fares airline in Europe, which of course, they are.

BN-2A Mk III-2 TRISLANDER

Sean Dillon
16th Feb 2002, 22:44
Whats with the downer on Ryanair! Let's not forget how many pilots they employ and how secure there jobs are compared to many others at that moment and that includes my airline - and I work for the national carrier !!!!

Ok, so the pay and conditions may not be great and MOL may not be the best boss then don't work in low cost - I can tell you the problems and issues are no different, especially in STN's other low cost airline...

NOODY
16th Feb 2002, 22:59
I've got no downer on ryan air the product. great job mol. I just think it's amusing listening to a bunch of guy's who 5 years ago couldn't get a decent job anywhere else telling us all were doomed to the dole and we deserve it for having the audacity to work for any full service airline.

Whilst sitting in first, surrounded by my family, sipping my krug i often wish i'd applied to work for ryan. Horse's for course's and all that. As someone else said .. good job mol for employing all those pilot's. I'm glad i'm not one of them though.. .couldn't give a fig for who's bigger. Far to busy enjoying my 6 day's off and planning my next jolly.