The Ultimate ULR Flight

[oz in dxb]

I've just been reading a back issue of Flight International on an article about Ultra-long haul flying written way back in 2004.

Seems like TC could still have a plan how to tackle our woes about ULR flying.

First a statement from a former SVP. Quote: "We've still a lot to learn about how to deal with ULR flights" says Emirates' Knowles "For example where is the best place to locate the crew rest area, or what sort of lighting helps? The time-zone changes are in fact more of an issue than flight duration itself" Unquote

And now to TCs world inovative plan!

Quote: "Emirates president Tim Clark has a long-term vision for the industry that could eliminate this time-zone problem. He believes that the next generation of long-range airliners, such as the proposed 650 seat Airbus A380-900 stretch, could be equiped with the ultimate in on-board crew rest faciltities, including showers, enabling pilots to operate the aircraft using a shift pattern similar to a ship's roster"
"Crews could operate ultra-long haul flights to a 4h on/4h off pattern, and when they get to destination, they'd turn around and fly back without need to acclimatise to different time zones" he says"

"And Clark has a simple solution to winning the pilots over his plan. "The savings generated by not having to put crews up would be given back to them in their pay packet" he says" Unquote

So watch out A380 guys!!! Looks like you'll be earning a lot more than your fellow colleagues! Around the cost of a hotel room extra???

So, it's a "simple solution" to pay us "more". Lifestyle is certainly not what flying is about anymore, neither be able to see the world, except from either the flight deck or the bunk!

Keep discovering guys!!!

[dubble_dubble]

Thats pretty interesting.(in a good way)

[Lord Flashhart]

Probably the only thing stopping TC getting his way with this ludicrous idea is the loss of revenue from installing proper rest areas and shower facilities. The loss of revenue from setting it up like this would well and truly be more than the cost of a hotel room for the crews for a night.

[Mister Warning]

That, and the FTL's.

[Wings Of Fury]

All fun and games for management, until they push us over the edge, its the same with any other limit, there is a limit!!!!
They wont stop will they, until they wake up one morning and read the paper or get a phone call! :mad:

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Just did a ULR IAH trip. Spent about 20 hrs at the hotel and got back to DXB absolutely shattered. I was in bed for the entire day dog tired. Never felt that tired in all my life after a trip. I slept in the next day as well and felt like I had caught up. Pretty hard to nap b4 a flight especially after just sleeping for 8 hrs. Flew back with mind in a constant sleepless haze.

I can only imagine what LAX will be like:

- Delays out of DXB.
- Flight time just under 17hrs.
- Directly over the poles for a years supply of x-rays.
- Stressing about where to put her down (if we had to) flying over the arctic wilderness
- Low Fuel Temp Problems
- Another 20 hrs at the hotel
- 6 hrs at Disneyland with the CC
- Another years supply of x-rays on the way back
- 35 hrs in a tincan and another year older in dog years

:ooh: Anyone care to take this further?

[Capt Hair Y Balls]

Stressing about where to put her down (if we had to) flying over the arctic wilderness

I thought they took care of that senario at the EK interview?

[fractional]

TC "spent" the weekend on BBC's Middle East Business Program...:eek: The guy isn't much wiser than his days elsewhere in the Gulf:oh:.

[Backwater]

could be equiped with the ultimate in on-board crew rest faciltities, including showers, enabling pilots to operate the aircraft using a shift pattern similar to a ship's roster"
"Crews could operate ultra-long haul flights to a 4h on/4h off pattern, and when they get to destination, they'd turn around and fly back without need to acclimatise to different time zones" he says"

"And Clark has a simple solution to winning the pilots over his plan. "The savings generated by not having to put crews up would be given back to them in their pay packet" he says" Unquote

From past experience if this ludicrous idea were to come to fruition it would be:
1. 4 on 4 off
2. BCRC in it's present form.
3. No showers or any other 'luxuries'
4. Only count 50% of the 'on' time for FTL purposes due to some misinterpreted letter from the GCAA.
5. Promised review of the situation when sufficient FRMC data collated (ie. never).
6. A ULR allowance of 10 Dhs per 'on' hour to pay for deodorant and toothpaste.

:rolleyes:

[Kamelchaser]

Sheikh-it-easy,

I hope you put in an ASR..there seems to be significant lack of fatigue related ASRs from that trip...I can't understand why.

I recently did a GRU flight. Decent departure time, 30 hrs rest, enabling a decent two sleeps before the return trip, with the return sector starting about 4am Dubai time, so all-in-all pretty reasonable.

The IAH is everything that ULR flying should not be about. 24hrs is a ridiculous ULR layover period, and I'm frankly surprised about the lack of ASRs.

[ShockWave]

Guys are so tired they don't have the energy to be bothered writing ASRs. If they actually did a proper study of crews by electronically monitoring how little sleep their crews are able to get and how often they are asleep or micro sleeping when at the controls they would crap themselves.

[MTOW]

A friend told me he and other members of his crew submitted 4 ASRs on his last IAH flight, all different, but all to do with fatigue and inability to gt any meaningful rest in the hotel.

But I also know the doctors are complaining that so few ASRs are being submitted, they don't have a leg to stand on when they pass on the comments about fatigue from pilots who have come in to see them at the medicsal centre.

On my last IAH, the second captain had been called out - after his good friend had told him 30 minutes earlier over the phone that he was going sick for the flight because he felt too tired to do it. (A few not totally good natured mutterings were heard about what he would say to his friend when he next saw him.)

[mensaboy]

A courtesy call to the 2nd Captain was thoughtful. Going sick if too fatigued to do the flight is required by law. So what was the problem?

I hope by the time he returned to DXB he reconsidered his decision to have words with his buddy. I suspect he was just venting some steam when he made those comments earlier.

Remember why we now get paid for sim supports? Because so many pilots simply called in sick instead of doing a days work for free. If more people rightly call in sick for this pairing, then perhaps it too will change. It is an absurd pairing and should be changed. It will cost the company some money but that is the price of doing business. As it stands now, doing this pairing is risking our health. Is there anything more important than that?

They will push us until we push back.

[Roster Change]

It is absolutely essential when reporting sick due tiredness for any trip, you TELL the crew controller you are reporting sick due fatigue, and assign the correct sick code ! This data is being collected ! No "F" code, no data.

[TangoUniform]

Probably a reason there aren't too many ASRs on this could be the fact that THEY will want you to come in a discuss it with the committee or doctor or whomever. After doing one of these trips, who wants to then head to clinic on one's day off to discuss this absurdity?

Look they want you to file an ASR for everything (ref. how many incidences are required to be filed). Look at the ridiculous ASR filled on the weekly safey report-all to cover one's backside. Why are we not seeing more IAH fatigue related ASRs?

[Plank Cap]

Gents, I have a Houston flight coming up, and you can rest assured my ASR is all ready partially filled out - just the variable details to complete. This is because there is a principle at stake here - data collection is needed to try and prove the point that this ULR pattern is dangerous. And if you believe the company is hiding these ASRs, as some people do, then copy your form directly to the GCAA and FAA, advising EK that you have done so.

I know form filling is tedious, but complaining about this or anything else without written evidence rarely gets things changed.

[MTOW]

A courtesy call to the 2nd Captain was thoughtful.It wasn't a courtesy call - he told his mate he was pulling the plug for the flight (mate on reserve) - and then the mate got the call a 1/2 hour later to cover the flight.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The 'operate-an-airliner-like-a-ship' idea was discussed and discarded 3 years ago.:rolleyes:

[410]

Quite correct. Except for the "and discarded" bit.

[puff m'call]

"Plank Cap"

Well done mate, I wish there were more like you around.

That FCI clearly states the you have to be acclimatised prior to a "ULR FLIGHT" That's out and back!!!

Emirates is breaking the rules and flight illegally with a 24hr layover. :ugh:

We're being shafted and it has to stop.:=

[fo4ever]

Just sign on as per FOM ETD -60 minutes.

If all did this then the problem is solved. But guess what: No one dares!!

I heard a captain telling the FDM to piss off with his drug test untill 60 min before departure... RESPECT

[scanscanscan]

So did he get awarded a Possitive test result then for his cooperation?

[QNH1013]

Talking with my Singapore Airlines friend the other day, was in awe of their layovers they get for their long haul flights. 2 - 3 days layover in the USA or London! Now that's adequate. They are getting 3 days in Houston by the way! When we're checking out to go back the'll just be waking up from their long needed rest.

[Roster Change]

QNH1038....

Better ask your SQ friend what the SIN-IAH schedule is. 4 times a week ?

[QNH1013]

Yeah checked and you're right, 4 times a week to IAH. Wonder if they will reduce their layover time when they go daily if ever. Their London and Los Angeles flights which are daily are still getting 2-3 days layover though depending if direct or via somewhere.