Bring Back Honest Fares

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Just paid £65.00 for a return flight between the UK and Ireland.

I'd be happy to pay double if the airline treated me like an intelligent adult and made me feel like a valued customer with a bit of old-fashioned service thrown in.

Instead, I feel that I've been conned and that any "service" is provided reluctantly, for a fee.

Advertise an honest price and I'll pay it. Don't advertise a silly fare and let me discover that you'll add a bit to check in a bag, give me a choice of seat, process my credit card payment, etc., etc.

Quote me an inclusive price that covers your costs and your profit margin. Cut out all the time-wasting administration of extras for a fee.

[Mark in CA]

Has it really gotten that bad in the UK? I just ran into the same thing booking flights on the new domestic Russian carrier Sky Express. Thankfully, this craziness has not hit the US, yet (except those flights where you have to buy your food).

[MrSkyGuy]

Sounds like you've been Ryanair'ed. Alas, it truely is the cattlecar carrier of teh world, but people seem to be willing to trade a good experience for a cheaper buck..

I'm with you, however. My last haul to EWR from LAX in the cattle-class section with AA had me truly wondering what had happened to commercial aviation in the past 30 years. I'd gladly pay a few more bucks for honest service..

I miss the regulated days where price wasn't the competing factor, and service was. I realize there's more than one side to that fence, but from back here in row 40B, I'm wishing I could at least feel like my patronage was valued.

[SXB]

Arfur

You get what you pay for.

Most of my travel is with flag carrying airlines - AF, LH and the rest. They don't charge me extra when I put something in the hold or when I want a drink and something to eat. When things go wrong they provide me with a nice hotel room and they let me call my wife at their expense.

I should point out that I don't ever recall paying only £65 for a flight from one of these airlines, they cost a lot more.

Air travel has changed a lot, loco's have been charging for hold luggage for a while now, as well as other things. If you want full service you have to go with a full service airline, but it costs more.

[MrSkyGuy]

Unfortunately, it seems that while Ryanair is the driving force in this "screw-the-PAX-and-charge-em-while-you're-at-it" revolution, it won't end there. Startups like Skybus and others are certain to stretch it much much further.

[selfloadingcargo]

This is a necessary, but unpleasant, part of the turning wheel. Soon we will find that operators are 'astonished' to learn that is isn't all about price, but about service and overall value.

They currently dignify it as 'no frills', but it will soon be seen (as once it was) as sub-standard, rip-off service based on lowest-common-denominator standards.

When everything you want and value in a flight is an 'extra', people are actually bright enough (eventually) to say 'enough'. But it is down to us.
These airlines treat us as suckers and until we do something to convince them that we are not, they will keep,on doing it (and can you blame them?).

So let's all start saying it...............NOW.

I suspect that if nobody checked in an extra bag, paid for refreshments on board, bought the 'duty free' stuff on board, paid extra for credit card bookings etc, that these airlines might rediscover customer service. And if they don't, I won't be weeping as they go out of business.....

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Surprisingly, this was Aer Lingus - Ireland's flag carrier!

[MrSkyGuy]

Off topic: I just had a really good long laugh at your name, Arfur. Funny!

[Avman]

SXB, I do hate this flippant often given answer, "you get what you pay for". I don't believe that's quite true. It may well apply to those who have been able to book early and benefit from the gimmick "throw-away" fares, but it does not apply to late bookers. Book late with an so-called LCC and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for!

I'm not convinced that charging for every service used individually is that cost effective. Any perceived gain will to a large extent be cancelled out by the additional costs in administering and monitoring it all. All the hassle may well in time drive the revenue generating pax (i.e. late bookers) away from the LCCs and that will trigger their eventual demise.

I can live with pay-as-you-go in-flight service on short haul. For the rest, I'd like to see the industry retaining some common sense and taking stress away from air travel rather than adding to it.

I avoid the likes of Ryanair like the plague.

[MrSoft]

Arfur it all depends how important the "service" is to you - or more to the point your own personal definition of "service".

I believe, the product was to fly you to Dub and back safely and on time.

Unlike FR the service in your case will have included personal seat allocation, (probably) kiosk or online check-in options as well as human being, nice comfy leather seats, spanking new AB equipment, reasonable legroom, some recline on your seat. And in my experience friendly FAs and pilots that say hello to you with some charm.

Personally, as an intelligent adult I find I can negotiate the the lumps and bumps of the booking process without it spoiling my day, much as I don't especially enjoy it. I don't find it an automatic insult to my intelligence, that they choose to do it this way.

As a regular on EI, I really hope they don't get pulled too far into the Ryanair style nonsense - for instance, their laughable initiative to charge for online seat selection whilst simultaneously proclaiming your choice is not guaranteed!

But the product, and the service, for £65 are superb.

[Avman]

Btw Arfur, I'm 100% with you on this. Many, such as the above poster (Mr Soft), fail to comprehend what you're actually saying. At least I know I now have an ally in this hopeless battle to bring common sense back to air travel ;)

[SXB]

SXB, I do hate this flippant often given answer, "you get what you pay for". I don't believe that's quite true. It may well apply to those who have been able to book early and benefit from the gimmick "throw-away" fares, but it does not apply to late bookers. Book late with an so-called LCC and you most certainly do NOT get what you pay for!

Avman, most airlines operate exactly the same policy with X number of seats in each fare category, if you book late then normally you'll pay more, the general principle of late bookers sudsidising early bookers is the same whether using a LCC or a legacy carrier.

[MrSoft]

Avman, I comprehend what he's saying. Well I think I do!

He is happy to pay double if the carrier just gives him a straight price. That option still exists in much of the market. For instance, BMI and KLM have a deliberately transparent strategy and give you a straight full fare at booking stage, no extras.

As it happens BMI also serve Dublin from certain UK destinations - maybe they were an option for this traveller too?

He feels conned, I put a contrary view.

He equates this approach with an insult to adult intelligence, I disagree.

I know you and he are not alone in feeling like this, and I feel like this a little bit too. If enough people feel like this, the carriers will change policy.

[Avman]

SXB, sure I'm well aware of that. That is not the issue. The point I was wanting to make is that the LCC fare for a late booker is not always that much lower than that of the so called legacy carriers and you get bugger all extra for it. The difference with Legacy carriers (well most anyway;) ) is that you get a better overall service with them. Now, by service, I don't mean Champagne, caviar, free meals, free drinks etc., but being treated as a valued CUSTOMER, an intelligent human being, and - most important of all - knowing that come hell or high water the airline will do all it can to get me to my destination as expeditiously as possible, even if it means putting me on one of their competitors' flights and/or paying for accomodation if it becomes necessary.

If I'm lucky enough to book early and fly with DIRT CHEAP AIRLINES for 5 quid, I fully accept that I "get what I pay for" (i.e. bugger all). If, however, I book late and pay 300 quid for the same flight but with no additional benefits or security (by security I refer to, for example, all reasonable efforts being made to get me to my destination should the flight be seriously delayed or cancelled) then I dispute your argument. In the days prior to LCCs cheap(er) fares were also available to early bookers (such as APEX) albeit with the Sat/Sun rule. But, regardless of the fare you paid and whatever class you travelled, you got SERVICE.

the general principle of late bookers sudsidising early bookers is the same whether using a LCC or a legacy carrier

Absolutely. However, in a nutshell, in the past all parties benefitted from SERVICE. Now all parties benefit from bugger all (with LCCs). ;)

[Avman]

MrSoft,

He equates this approach with an insult to adult intelligence, I disagree.

I agree with him because I think I understand (from my own similar frustrations) in what context he uses the term. I believe, and I don't mean this unkindly, that you may be reading this in a different context to what is meant. I give the floor to Arfur.

[Led Goose]

Not been mentioned yet?

People seem to jump at the low fares without factoring in
1. Extra cost of actually getting from the airport to the city that LCC's claim to be flying to. (E.g. Ryanair London - Frankfurt = Stansted to Hahn!)
2. Transfer time and what this is worth to you.
3. Food and drink you'll buy along the way

Combined with all the good points already raised its rare that flying low cost airlines really is more attractive.

Biggest thing for me is that Flying SHOULD be pricey!

Flying is safe due to the professionals that make it all happen (Pilots, FA's, ATC etc) Do you want your life in the hands of a pilot that gets paid less than a school teacher? (no disrespect, good teachers are extremely important to any society!) But, an FO landing 150 lives, while fighting crosswinds, in rubbish visibility, at the end of a long day where he/she knows she's getting paid hee haw?

[PAXboy]

Avmanbut being treated as a valued CUSTOMER, an intelligent human being, and - most important of all - knowing that come hell or high water the airline will do all it can to get me to my destination as expeditiously as possible, even if it means putting me on one of their competitors' flights and/or paying for accommodation if it becomes necessary.And very nice that is and I often pay the cost of that by paying more for the ticket upfront.

I am in support of the general mood of the thread but the current system is not going to change any time soon. Certainly not in the next 30 years. The first and last of it is money. FR pushed open the door that Freddie Laker found by changing the short haul market, rather than the long haul, and that door is not going to be closed until the oil runs out.

There are more than enough pax willing to go through the worst service to get to their destination, to offset the handful who do not wish to subject themselves to it. This market model (paying for seat res and hold baggage) is brand new and has only just begun. Soon it will be normal with only the premium cabins having the old style service. The legacy carriers will charge for bags and seats at the back and make them inclusive upfront.

I think that one should direct energies against the web sites that do not make it clear about the extras. FlyBe in particular have very poor directions about what is a chargeable bag and what is not. They spend time talking about taking 'a bag' on board for free and then charge for that bag. I am in correspondence with them about making the clear distinction between cabin bag and hold bag. FR and EZY are right up front about this, in my view.

[SXB]

Ok, Avman, point taken.

I agree 100% on the points you make about service.

[MrSoft]

Fair do's Avman. pax.


There are more than enough pax willing to go through the worst service to get to their destination


I suppose what I am banging on about here, is that in this case, with this carrier, "worst service" does not apply - I believe good service has been delivered for a very good price. On a different thread, about a different carrier, I would agree with everything everyone is saying.

[Avman]

Certainly some of the extra charges are just way over the top. Remember how we were encouraged to book on line with a small discount if we did so? Now we have to pay for the privilege! :ugh: Can you imagine your local supermarket adding 10 pounds to your shopping bill for choosing to shop with them? It's all just become insane.

I believe that the all-important high yield revenue generating customer (the late bookers) will eventually abandon the LCCs and return to the legacy carriers (if there are any left). This will force LCCs to rethink their product (or market model, to use PAXboy's more apt term) if they want to survive. It won't be too long before you see a two class cabin on the so-called LCCs. It already exists with one I regularly use, Brussels Airlines. The Legacy Carrier and Low Cost Carrier product will merge into what I consider Brussels Airlines to be: a Hybrid Carrier (you heard the term here first folks :) ).

[old,not bold]

I did an analysis for a client not so long ago of the average yields on a number of routes operated competitively by locos and BA. This included those routes where the loco's idea of how close to a city an airport needs to be, to be sold as serving that city, was rather different from any normal person's.

All charges were included in the analysis.

There were several where the loco's average was higher than the rest, and this was due to the large number of last-minute (business?) sales. I rather think that the penny has dropped with many people now, who realise that they can pay a lot less for an infinitely better product by not buying from Ryanair, Easyjet et al, if they need to very travel urgently.

A very senior FR executive once said to me that they sometimes double the revenue, at least, on a sector from the sales of 5-10% of the seats in the 72 hours before the flight, which they retained for this purpose. That may or may not the the case now. He regarded those who bought them as mugs ready for fleecing.

[PAXboy]

Avmana Hybrid Carrier (you heard the term here first folks Insert 'smiley' of doffing cap! :ok:

There is no doubt that the permutations of the modern airline has many more yet to run. The basic premise is, of course, as old as the hills. Make the headline price as low as you can.

It does not matter whether it is a sign over a supermarket freezer that says "Buy One Get One Free" (BOGOF) or a large billboard outside a motor car show room advising that, you can now buy the GLX model for the price of the GL. Once inside, you find that you have to buy it TODAY but it got you in the door.

ALL advertising of ALL products aim to do this. If only the majority of humans were not so culturally directed into always demanding the lowest price and to feel that they have got a 'bargain'.

The reason that we are grinding our teeth about this is because the practise is changing during our lifetime. The 18 year old starting off on their first summer vacation on their own - will not even think twice about having to pay extra for the cases because that's how they have always been charged. I, too, do not like the change but it is just one more to add to the tally that is spurring me on to become a grumpy old man. :p

[Seat62K]

I find it difficult to agree with much of what has been written here. As someone who flies well over 60 sectors a year - including some in BA First and Club World as well as with both Ryanair and easyJet - I feel able to make comparisons. In relation to onboard service, I have found Ryanair crew, for example, to be courteous and professional. I fail to understand the "they don't treat you as a person" and "you get what you pay for" arguments. I have received truly abysmal service from some so-called "full service" airlines, both in the air and when it comes to dealing with complaints afterwards.
Some have commented on the "extras" they have to pay. Checking luggage and checking in at the airport impose extra costs on the airline and I feel that the user should pay. Would these posters abolish excess baggage charges on the same principle?
I regard punctuality as important and, in relation to this, Ryanair has to be congratulated. I can't remember the last time I suffered a delay of any significance with them.
On the other hand I have yet to experience what help I would get if a low cost carrier left me stranded. Are there posters out there who have been in this position?
Lastly, reclining seats. I regard these as a nuisance. Ever tried reading a broadsheet newspaper with the seat in front reclined? Who needs reclining seats on short haul flights?

[Techman5]

My dad was returning from Malaga to LGW a short time ago. There was a massive jam on the motorway, and he missed his flight.

Contrary to the impressions given on the TV programs, he went to the Easybus desk, and they simply offered to transfer him to the next LGW flight at no extra charge. Unfortunately, this was about 12 hours. He asked more, and they offered him a flight to LUT in about 1 hour. They then said that the LUT flight was €2 cheaper, but asked if he minded waiving the refund because it was difficult to process.

As I say, this is definitely not the impression that you get from the TV programs. Perhaps, like most events in life, we tend to hear the bad experiences. I see nothing wrong with low cost carriers. For those of us that do not live near London, they have certainly opened up regional airports.

[al446]

I too hate the practices being adopted, how many pax fly to e.g. Tenerife with only a toothbrush?
I do agree though with seat62K, flew KLM long haul and we were treated worse than cattle with subsequent complaint ignored. Also flew Alitalia via Rome, nice you may think but airport was an hour away by fast train.
I suppose the charges on LCC were almost inevitable (seen the price of oil these days?) but fairer advertising costs nothing.

[TSR2]

Now back to topic.

Yes Arfur I fully agree. There is no reason whatsoever why airlines should not show ALL charges (both non-optional and optional) on the flight select page. In not doing so they are guilty of misleading practices in my opinion.

It can be done. Look at the BA website. THE PRICE SHOWN FOR YOUR SELECTED FLIGHTS IS THE PRICE YOU PAY.

[kingdee]

very sorry to hear your comments .But as a regular traveller with Ryanair ( 100 flights last year ) i have never had bad Customer Service even when i flew LPL - FUE this year 4 hr flight Cabin Crew were attentive and very happy to assist you.My list of 100 flights includes RIX DUB SNN GIR FUE BLK LBA LPL STN BTS .I am also a regular upon Jet2

[Based]

Yes Arfur I fully agree. There is no reason whatsoever why airlines should not show ALL charges (both non-optional and optional) on the flight select page. In not doing so they are guilty of misleading practices in my opinion.

And what about the people who generally don't check in bags and actually want to check in online? The credit card fee is the only additional charge I personally notice having to add on to the initial quoted price. Beyond that it's genuinely beyond me why people get so worked up by this.

[take-off]

Surely in this day and age , with all the technology avalabale , airline can/could produce a fare (albeit lowcost or legacy) that includes all taxes charges and baggage, with out the customer doing all the work.If i wanted to be a travel agent...I would have become one! Or maybe i should sent a fee to said airline for costs covering the expense its cost me to book flight in first place, paper, ink, electric etc..
The reality is these days, is its not so mcuh harder to compare flights , just so much more time consuming, having to go through page after page of extras before gettin a final price, which at end of day is all any of us want. I would much rather see a flight at say £100 all in, rather than £1 plus taxes and charges...What happend to that airlines were sposed to be showing prices that way ?

[CallBell]

The difficulty with showing an "all in" fare covering everything is that there is a range of options... checking in 1, 2, 3 or no bags at all? Checking in online or at the airport or at a self service kiosk? Which options you choose will affect the end price. Low cost airlines advertise the cheapest possible fare ,ie no bags, check in online, because it is possible to do that. Anything else gets charged for.

[TSR2]

Perhaps you never noticed the 'Fuel Supplement' in addition to the credit card charge.

It is not a case of getting worked up about anything, it is simply debating the question of airlines not being up-front or transparent with certain charges.

Let me give you an example.
Two adults + two children from MAN-FAO with a well known loco airline.
Fare including taxes and charges - £444. It is not until you get well into the booking process that you find out exactly how much the additional charges are. First there is a Fuel Supplement of £31.28. Then a Credit Card charge of £16 (£2 per person per flight) and finally £47.92 Baggage Charge (£5.99 per bag per flight). Total add-on charges £95.20. That is 21.44% on top of the fare quoted on the Flight Select page.

Taking this example, why could this airline not show complete transparency and display all charges on the Flight Select page as follows:
Fare (inc taxes & charges) - £444.00
Fuel Supplement - £31.28
Credit Card Charge - £16.00
TOTAL BASIC FARE - £491.28

OPTIONAL CHARGES
Baggage - £5.99 per bag per flight (£10.00 at airport)
Seat Selection - £xx per pax per flight
Extra Legroom - £xx per pax per flight

Quite simply, the basic fare qoted should include ALL charges which you will HAVE TO PAY. In displaying Optional Charges on the same page will allow you to calculate the total cost at a glance.
How airlines are allowed to bury a Fuel Supplement deep into the booking process is beyond me. It should be incorporated into Taxes & Charges.

This is not a rant or getting worked up about anything. It is simply a comment on the pricing policies of certain airlines.