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Evening Star
20th Mar 2008, 20:30
From Komersant (http://www.kommersant.com/p-12218/Kalashnikov/):

Russia is currently in talks with a few countries concerning the payment for the intellectual property rights ... of [Kalashnikov] submachine guns

Now if the licensees pass on the cost, should neatly bankrupt any half decently equipped paramilitary organisation. Sort of approach that would make Machiavelli rub his eyes in amazement.:hmm:

Beatriz Fontana
20th Mar 2008, 22:57
I'd like to see them try!!

tony draper
20th Mar 2008, 23:07
Why not? the British Government paid the German Company Krupps an enormous sum of money at the end of the First World War because during said war we had used a fuse of Krupp design in our shells,business is business after all,if you are going to go capitalist go the whole hog.
:E

con-pilot
20th Mar 2008, 23:46
Hum, but will Kalashnikov or his heirs receive any of the money?

Somehow I think not, so I say to Russia, sorry, not this time. :suspect:

tony draper
20th Mar 2008, 23:49
Saw Kalashnikov interviewed once,think he was in the Army when he designed same so he did not get a bean,bit like Frank Whittle and his Jet Engine there then.
:rolleyes:

FakePilot
20th Mar 2008, 23:50
What patents are they talking about? Like the knock-off AK's throughout the world? Or things like the "trigger."

I have one of those AK knock-offs, imagine an AK-47 manufactured by Benenelli.

Mac the Knife
21st Mar 2008, 07:28
How about a world class-action countersuit claiming compensation for all the death, pain and suffering caused by the design?

That would shut 'em up.

Mac

G-ZUZZ
21st Mar 2008, 07:51
How about a world class-action countersuit claiming compensation for all the death, pain and suffering caused by the design

Do you mean the death to its users caused by the open-bolt design? A real bugger when you initiate your ambush with it and all you get is a nice loud 'clack' Ask the VC.

he was in the Army when he designed same

If they score the cash, Mikhail's descendants must remember to pay royalties to the jerries for all the design features he "borrowed" from the StG44, the first assault rifle.

if the licensees pass on the cost, should neatly bankrupt any half decently equipped paramilitary organisation.

With something like 75-100 million of them in circulation the supply of pre-loved isn't exactly limited.

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Mar 2008, 08:46
...Do you mean the death to its users caused by the open-bolt design?...

Open bolt? Far as I know it has a rotating bolt that locks into the receiver/breech assembly with (or without) a round chambered and is pretty reliable. 50 million "freedom fighters" who never bother cleaning the thing can't be wrong.

Wiley
21st Mar 2008, 08:59
It's always surprised me that no one asks whether Kalashnikov didnít borrow, just a little, from the Germans in his creation. To an amateur like me, the AK looks an awful lot like the Sturmgewehr 44 that was on limited issue to German forces in the latter stages of WW2. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_44 )
The Mig 15 was a Focke Wulf, (with a Nene engine, but thatís another story!!!), the rockets that sent up Sputnik and Yuri Gargarin (and the who knows how many nameless others before him who didnít make it) were all German designs, so does the same apply to the AK?

So could it be some nameless German who should be claiming this particular patent?

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Mar 2008, 09:09
The StG44 and the AK are similar in appearance but ol' Mikhail did some major design work. The gas operated tilting bolt of the StG44 was replaced by the rotating bolt design Kalashnikov came up with while in hospital recovering from wounds.


Edited to add: Your FN-FAL/CAL/SLR uses a tilting bolt. No rush there to hand over a wodge of shekels to the designers of the StG44...:}

G-ZUZZ
21st Mar 2008, 09:33
Yes Wiley see post #8. Or is that a JB thing to do....??

Open bolt? Far as I know it has a rotating bolt that locks into the receiver/breech assembly with (or without) a round chambered and is pretty reliable. 50 million "freedom fighters" who never bother cleaning the thing can't be wrong

Yes and it has two sears, one holds the rotating bolt in the open position between semi-automatic shots or when actioned. If the bullet or the pin is a dud it's bad news when you try to fire, especially in an ambush.

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Mar 2008, 09:49
The Uzi fires from an open bolt and is equipped with a fixed firing pin for this purpose. The AK fires from a closed bolt in all modes of operation and has a floating pin AFAIK. With the rifle in battery, the carrier is snugged up against the breech with the bolt rotated and locked in firing position, the extractor claw gripping the rim of the cartridge, the hammer cocked and the firing pin aligned with the primer.


Have I missed something in that I believe the AK fires from a closed bolt?

G-ZUZZ
21st Mar 2008, 10:50
Maybe. Or maybe I'm the one who's wrong about the bolt. Not entirely sure although info on the sears seems to indicate it is an open (and rotating)-bolt arrangement.

I was taught about ambushes and other delights by a bloke with a DCM who survived an ambush when the "[email protected]" (his word) who tried to initiate it with his AK mis-fired and gave the game away. The Man, DCM said it released the bolt but didn't fire and they got out in one piece - good enough for me, that was. :ok:

tony draper
21st Mar 2008, 11:36
Bah! tiz the weapon of a sneak and a cad,give me a sturdy Long Lee Enfield with a good honest bayonette every time,those natives don't like it up em yer know,and it didn't need half a dozen pp9 batteries to make it operate.
:rolleyes:

PLovett
21st Mar 2008, 12:04
Mr d,
My compendium of things that go bang doesn't list a "Long Lee Enfield", merely the SMLE in various forms. Were you perhaps refering to its length vis a vis the AK47?

That same compendium also relates that certain captured German scientists and engineers were involved in the design of the AK47 which was intended to be at least as good as the MP44 which was originally the MP43.

Unfortunately, it doesn't refer to the type of bolt action.

Anyway, how can they claim intellectual property when I doubt that the action was ever patented and they allowed numerous countries to manufacture the thing in any event? I can also think of two countries that developed their own military arms based on the AK47, Israel and South Africa. I doubt whether either of them will entertain any idea of paying Russia for intellectual property.:ok:

tony draper
21st Mar 2008, 12:43
Then one's compendium is sadly amiss Mr P, there was and indeed is a very famous Lee Enfield product called the Long Lee Enfield manufactured around the turn of the century
Behold
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a194/Deaddogbay/TheBSALongLeeEnfield.jpg
The one shown is a parker Hale coversion chambered for .22 rimfire,one had a Lee Enfield Parker Hale conversion in one's sproghood,although twer not the long Lee Enfield,twer the SMLE. which was fortunate as the Long Lee would have probably towered two feet above one's noggin at that time
:rolleyes:

FakePilot
21st Mar 2008, 15:22
Maybe Mr. K made other designs too, but the AK47 and AK74 are closed bolt. And even though the 47 looks alot like the mp44 I'm told (never having fondled one) has some key design differences.

Germstone
21st Mar 2008, 15:59
slow mo of AK in action with top cover removed:ok:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sNDTdKQNVU

Capt.KAOS
21st Mar 2008, 16:09
Both StG.44 and AK47 are gas operated and fire from a closed bolt. Even the design of the gas system is identical. Where they differ is in how they lock the bolt. The AK-47 uses a rotating bolt like the m1 Garand and the MP44 uses a wedge lock like the SVT-40. Trigger is also different although not completely. The only thing completely thing shared with the StG.44 was the piston attached to bolt carrier.

An interesting fact was that Hugo Schmeisser, the designer behind the MP-38/40/44 worked in the same factory where Kalshinokov was designing the AK-47 and stayed there until 1949. I'm sure he was somehow participating on the development of the AK47 but never got the recognition due to popaganda reasons.

.

dazdaz
21st Mar 2008, 18:29
I think the Ruskies might be talking about the AK-74 (new design 1974) as to the old AK-47 yes, you guessed it, designed in 1947. Most African nations and the far east are using the AK-74 they look simular but the workings are a bit better with the AK 74 including better killing range, and a lighter weight.

Daz

Sailor Vee
21st Mar 2008, 19:14
Similar, yes......

http://www.google.ie/images?q=tbn:GhDcrUVWZ_YJ:www.airsplat.com/Images/ER

takes 7.62mm short ammo, so can use NATO 7.62mm with an insert to the breech.

but a lot shorter......

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Aks74u.jpg/180px-Aks74u.jpg

takes 5.45mm ammo.

They always have been sneaky, even down to mortars that can use the west's ammo, but they can't use the soviet stuff.

Ken Wells
21st Mar 2008, 21:37
This has been going on for years as Kalashnikov family have tried to license out the name Kalashnikov on numerous deals from Vodka to clothing.

They also got upset as America bought Romianian made AK 47's

The AK 45 was also re-tooled as an air-rifle for the American youth market

Solid Rust Twotter
21st Mar 2008, 22:09
The AN94 is also an interesting piece of kit. One of the disadvantages of the closed bolt system, particularly with dodgy Russki manufacturing re the firing pin springs was a slam fire problem when chambering a round in the older and more worn AKs. One had to make sure the weapon was facing in a safe direction before chambering the first round and it was never done in a vehicle or indoors for just that reason. Quickly sorted out with a new spring but it was a bit nerve wracking when it happened.:ooh:


The sound your mate heard may have been the hammer coming down on the rear of the bolt, Mr ZUZZ.

G-ZUZZ
21st Mar 2008, 22:15
Possibly so, Mr. Rust.

But he said it fired from an open bolt and I believed it. You never wanted to argue with Maj. F***r. The bloke had more ears on his necklace than I'd had hot rat packs...

PLovett
21st Mar 2008, 22:55
Mr d,

Ah, tis mentioned in my compendium as the successor to the Lee-Metford Mk 1 before the decision was made to shorten it which then became the SMLE.

My apologies for doubting you Mr d.

FakePilot
22nd Mar 2008, 00:26
Not all AK74's are short. I've seen plenty "full" length.
Sorta like every other gun, eventually someone makes a short version of it.

Now an AN94 - that's one I'd like to have. Unfortunately its design automatically makes it illegal for civilians.
Check out the design on it! It's actually an action within an action so that 2 shots can be fired before the recoil is felt by the user!

Solid Rust Twotter
22nd Mar 2008, 06:21
Perhaps the person was referring to the cartridge as being "short" Mr Fake. It's the old 7.62x39 Soviet standard used in the AK, as opposed to the NATO 7.62x51. The newer AKM74 uses the 5.45x39 cartridge compared to the 5.56x45 NATO standard. The cut down weapons such as the AKS74U and the wzor88/96 were made so for tank crews and spec ops requiring something around SMG size with a bit more bite. A good example of an AKS74U can be seen leaning against a wall behind Mr bin Laden whenever he's shown sitting crosslegged on a carpet for a rant against the West on al Jazeera.

On the subject of cut down weapons, one was privileged to use a seriously cut down Galil/R4 on the range. It was shortened to the size of a large pistol for the movie "Lords of War" by a friend of mine. Pretty much uncontrollable one handed on full auto but it does make a spectacular Hollywood style muzzle flash, not recommended for those with bushy eyebrows unless a fire extinguisher is close at hand.:uhoh: