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diddy1234
20th Mar 2008, 13:17
Just noticed that the new Dreamliner's nose section looks very similar to the comet's nose section.

check them out :-

Comet nose
http://www.airchive.com/airline%20pics/LGW%20Compressed/Comet%20cockpit%20ext.jpg

Dreamliner nose section
http://bp0.blogger.com/_9PoYPYFFn4Y/R-F1OqHP7kI/AAAAAAAAAN0/3iLrUZtSC4U/s1600-h/DSC_0094.jpg

Just thought i'd share this with everyone.

Seloco
20th Mar 2008, 13:36
Just thought i'd share this with everyone.

Why?

Actually just to be different the Boeing folk decided to make their's out of plastic so they could not be accused of copying De Havilland.:ugh:

WHBM
20th Mar 2008, 14:47
Well, the Caravelle copied it too :)

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Istanbul-Airlines/Aerospatiale-SE-210-Caravelle/1270032/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Istanbul-Airlines/Aerospatiale-SE-210-Caravelle/1270032/M/)

Just a spotter
20th Mar 2008, 14:58
Yeup, must be the design of choice for the fashionable passanger airliner using leading edge fuselage construction and materials 'of their day'

Lets just hope the 78 does not suffer any of the problems associated with the 106.

Still, it looks very smart. Looking forward to seeing the Boeing fly.

JAS

twochai
20th Mar 2008, 15:02
I believe Sud Aviation paid a fee to deHavilland to use the Comet nose section design on the Caravelle, under licence. This is not the same as 'copying'.

Boeing copying the alloy nose of the Comet on a 787 nose profile manufactured from molded composites - hardly!

Did they both choose the aerodynamic profile of a bullet profile to minimize the drag and maximize the aesthetic appeal of their respective designs? Probably, but the 21st century molded composite structure of the 787 allowed Boeing to do it with just four transparencies, instead of the ridiculously expensive and heavy eight or ten windows on the Comet, necessitated by the state-of-the-art aluminum structures of the day.

merlinxx
20th Mar 2008, 15:02
Well the prototype did have a Vomet nose grafted on!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
20th Mar 2008, 15:04
I'd have said that it was closer to this:

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/classics/images/T167393.jpg


...especially as it has a fuselage attached to it :8

pigboat
20th Mar 2008, 16:16
Well, there's this one...
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/3048.jpg

And this one...
http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/BrouG-BKPT2.jpg

The second manufacturer had some sheet metal left over to make a second vertical stab, I guess. :p

Zoot alors!

merlinxx
20th Mar 2008, 20:09
Shame it never got to fly the Ogin as it shoud've done!

airvanman
20th Mar 2008, 20:50
I like the snotter on the 787

But moving off Boeings. Is it just me? I always think the nose on the A318/19 etc looks old,fat, & stubby.

Guess the wind tunnel tells no lies?

twochai
20th Mar 2008, 20:55
Airbus could always do what BAC did to the One Eleven and put a pointy nose cone over the radar as an afterthought. Improved its looks no end!

Never could understand why the Broussard required two vertical fins when one would do??

Shaggy Sheep Driver
20th Mar 2008, 21:39
I think the nose (and much else) on this takes some beating....

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/GZK6NK/G-AWZOGatwickoct72.jpg

SSD

Jhieminga
20th Mar 2008, 22:16
Very true SSD, but I'll try to at least match your bid:
http://www.vc10.net/Photos/Images/VC10_HeathrowMaintbase3.jpg

;)

HarryMann
20th Mar 2008, 23:55
The second manufacturer had some sheet metal left over to make a second vertical stab, I guess. :p

Nope, look at the big extended dorsal fin on the first one and you'll see that there must have been 'issues'- so the 2nd makes sense!

twochai
21st Mar 2008, 01:17
You're right, the 'first' one did have early handling issues and the dorsal was grafted onto a Chippy style fin to stiffen it up directionally. Much simpler than two separate fins and rudders, though!

Lafyar Cokov
21st Mar 2008, 11:52
Might I suggest:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166/lafyarcokov/concord.jpg

Raving RHAG Muncher
21st Mar 2008, 12:14
Full marks for that suggestions, indeed. She's a beauty!

Brian Abraham
21st Mar 2008, 12:55
Don't think Boeing is copying anybody, in fact could they have a patent on it? Everyone copied Boeing perhaps. Boeing 307, first flight 31 December 1938. Utilised B-17 wings and tail feathers. Also the first pressurised airliner.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/7-1.jpg

HarryMann
21st Mar 2008, 13:06
Also the first pressurised airliner.

Yup, about 4psi? Comet is very similar nosewise, of course, there's only one or two ways of skinning a cat...

Re: That dorsal fin... square fuselage would be the problem methinks, shedding woking great vortices, dorsal fin only partial solution.

pigboat
21st Mar 2008, 16:58
Re: That dorsal fin... square fuselage would be the problem methinks, shedding woking great vortices, dorsal fin only partial solution.

You call that a dorsal fin? This is a dorsal fin, myte! ;)

http://www.dhc-2.com/2d13356d0.jpg

HM I believe you are correct with your comment about the slab-sided fuselage. The Beaver presented a quirk when taking off on floats with a stiff crosswind. Even with the dock knocker ventral fin, the airplane had a tendency to turn downwind before it got on the step.

wz662
21st Mar 2008, 20:21
Do I spy tapered wings on the Beaver? Does the owner also have a Cessna with straight wings? And looking at all those extra windows does it suffer problems with an aft cg when loaded? :confused:

IGh
21st Mar 2008, 21:06
About two slots above BA shows a Boeing B307 Stratoliner -- but that modern Vertical Fin and Rudder in that photo is AFTER the fatal upset/breakup of 18Mar1939.

Since Ralph Cram (Aero) was killed in that upset/breakup, Boeing brought George S up from Consolidated. GS and Eddie Allen worked through several iterations from the tiny Vertical Stab' with initial HUGE RUDDER aft of hinge.

AB -- ?maybe you can find IMAGES of the pre-mishap fin-rudder design on the web?? I have the early magazine images, the iterations were shown in the IAeS magazine:

Schairer, George S. "Directional Stability and Vertical Surface Stalling." Presented at IAeS Aerodynamics session, Ninth Annual Meeting, NY, 31Jan 1941. Published in IAeS' Journal of Aeronautical Sciences, May'41; pg 270-75; paper describes directional instability of prototype's Fin-Rudder design and excess Rudder Hinge Moment during flight with large Beta.

Cook, William H. Road to the 707. Bellevue WA: TYC Publishing, '91. pg 57, "rudder locked full over".

Regarding research on directional control: subsequent modifications of Vertical Fin (added dorsal fin) and Rudder (specifics on sizing to reduce hinge moments); and then added Rudder hydraulic boost). Later B-17s and other aircraft adopted lesson learnt, with the Fin-Rudder sizing to inhibit Rudder "lock-over". This was one of the major lessons in design, and measurement (with the knowledge that Sideslip Angle did NOT merely equal Yaw Angle).

Seattle P-I Sunday March 19th, 1939 front page headline, shown in large type spread across the top, reads "STRATOLINER FALLS, 10 DIE". Under the headline on that front page is a large photograph of the Stratoliner wreckage ...

P-I page two shows a photograph of NX19901 apparently in flight with #3 and #4 Props BOTH stopped, and the RUDDER deflected to the left (correcting for asymmetric thrust); no photo caption shown (perhaps a Boeing photo taken during a prior test flight). [This configuration, thrust asymmetry and associated sideslip angle, was described by WHC as likely at initial mishap-upset: with Rudder "lock-over" causing an unexpected yaw-rotation and spin in the direction of the "good" engines.]

Brian Abraham
22nd Mar 2008, 02:30
HarryMann the pressurisation was a modest 2 PSI on the Boeing 307, in practice the pressurisation system had problems and was not used. Had the pleasure of seeing a gleaming polished metal 307 sitting on the ramp at Tan Son Nhut Airport in Saigon, Vietnam when I arrived late 1970.

Igh this will be the photo to which you refer with #3 and #4 shut down. The prototype used the fin/rudder from the B-17C. Following the crash it was redesigned and in fact incorporated onto the B-17E when its tail end was redesigned to incorporate a tail gun turret.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/8-1.jpghttp://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/9-1.jpg

twochai
22nd Mar 2008, 02:43
It sure was a graceful airplane. In the late sixties/early seventies the last remaining 307 was based in Vientiane while operating a weekly sched service (unpressurised) for the ICC (International Control Commission?) to Hanoi and Saigon. Have no idea how they were never shot down!

pigboat
23rd Mar 2008, 03:17
Do I spy tapered wings on the Beaver?

Yes you do. That is a mod, the name of which I forget, where they add an extension to the wing outboard of the strut, plus an extended cabin, plus a fillet to the leading edge of the horizontal stab, plus that dorsal fin. I'm surprised one engine is able to lug all that ugly around. The only thing that could be done to make the airplane even more hideous would be to add the Edo 6100 floats. :yuk: