Sod Human Factors

[Bus429]

Looks like HF doesn't come into it...

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/b767-cf6-licensed-engineers-b1-b2-a-cat-mumbai-india--10391516.htm

[Mr.Brown]

Ah you see, Monarch aircraft engineering Limited being a Part 145 approved organisation have to ensure that all maintenance staff have had a recent HF course!!!!
So hands up, how many connies out there would say to their line manager/Station engineer etc that they cannot carry out their duties because their too tired as this 24/7 operation is out of order and it has me dead on my feet.
Out the door you'd go and someone else would be more that willing to come in and do that job.....
There needs to be legislation to protect engineering staff both permy and contract...

[Engineer]

HF is an EASA requirement.

Correct me if I am wrong but do not think India is part of the EU community.

At least not yet :eek:

[Bus429]

Engineer,
HF is an EASA requirement.

Not the point of the post. MAEL is a part 145 organisation, MTS is not; I was merely making the point that seems a bit thick for an organisation to promote a 24/07 maintenance job.

BTW, HF is an ICAO requirement and India is a contracting state.

[WOTME?]

The point of HF is so that when you've fcuked up after an 18 hour stint the company can say 'but we trained him,he shouldn't have done it'.
I really don't need to sit in a classroom for 2 days to learn that I get tired & am liable to errors when I work long/unsocial hours.

[Mr.Brown]

The point of HF is so that when you've fcuked up after an 18 hour stint the company can say 'but we trained him,he shouldn't have done it'.

Spot on!!!
HF is covering the companies asses and when you try to cover your own ass using HF, your considered to be uncooperative.:=

[JETZ Tech]

If I may throw my spanner into the mix; but HF is more than when any mechanic is tried. It is designed to make you the Engineer/Mechanic aware of what else affects our daily routine i.e. Marriage problems,Financial difficulties,Health issues or just about any changes that affects us. We may not choose or recognise these effects but they do impact us even if we think not.
I am not going to preach to anyone but HF is not just a Management Tool to ***K you as so stated; but to give you the Engineer/Mechanic the information to be aware. Your own safety and Licence depend on being aware and dealing with the situation.
Check your country's Labour Laws. They can be usefull.

[WOTME?]

When I did my 2 day course the company where I was working employed a large number of contractors.
The permies did their course during their working day.
The contractors(mandatory)courses were held after their(12hr)working day,thereby making them even more tired than usual.
Sorry if I am cynical,but I've been in this business for a long time & I can't help but suspect that whoever decided HF training was to be compulsory has an interest in an HF training school.

[JETZ Tech]

I can appreciate your position. It appears one rule for some and another for the rest. Had my recurrent during the second half of my working day.(Not Contractor). Hope that point was raised when they attended,as that fact had an impact on thier response and in how effective the training was in the end.

[WOTME?]

Not sure what was raised as I chose to do mine in my own time at a place closer to home.
But I do know the guys who attended & they regarded the event with the contempt it deserved.

[whatbolt]

Cant remember when I:ugh::ugh: didnt have marriage problems/relationship problems/family problems/money problems/teenager problems/rasehole boss problems etc etc - thats why God made me an engineer - to sort it.

[Bus429]

Have to register an interest here: I spend some of my time doing HF training along with other consultative roles. I believe it is mostly relevant, particularly for line and base maintenance staff. When component repair and overhaul organisations/shops have to receive - albeit tailored - courses, it loses some of its relevance. There again, Part 145 does not really take maintenance accomplished outside the line and base into account; Part 66 currently does not apply to component or engine repair/overhaul/process workshops at all.
Overall, I think some of the psycho-babble is largely irrelevant but using accident reports related to maintenance error appears to be a good way of focussing minds.

[HeryBird]

I`m an HF Facilitator and I wonder how you are receiving your training. Is it like a type course where the instructor talks, talks, talks, or a facilitator where discussion is encouraged and experiences are discussed between all.

Use of recent incidents is an important tool for HF training.

Just my bit...........................

[Bus429]

HeryBird,

I run it both ways.

[HeryBird]

BUS_429

I have just sent you an email.

colin

[limbang]

Gidday mate, PX or EK?

[limbang]

Bus429

EK or PX

GT

[Bus429]

Limbang,
Ex EK Line Maintenance (years ago). Not PX.

Currently back in UK but still travelling the world.

[Blacksheep]

Overall, I think some of the psycho-babble is largely irrelevant but using accident reports related to maintenance error appears to be a good way of focussing minds. From the HF training I have received, it would appear that Jim Reason is the master guru of HF. Its interesting therefore to find much of his theoretical work severely criticised in research papers published by eminent names in academic Industrial Psychology.

We aeronautical types don't have the luxury of academic musing; we have to get on with the practicalities of working life. At the extreme end of working conditions I often wonder what the HF people would make of working conditions on the battlefield.

(Then there's H & S - I smile at a mental imagine of Grunts running round the sandpit, wearing Hi-viz vests over their CS95s. :ooh: )

[Mr.Brown]

If I may throw my spanner into the mix; but HF is more than when any mechanic is tried. It is designed to make you the Engineer/Mechanic aware of what else affects our daily routine i.e. Marriage problems,Financial difficulties,Health issues or just about any changes that affects us.

The tiredness factor is the one major factor that the employers affect by putting engineers into positions where long hours are expected.
Alot of companies talk all the HF B****X but in practice they just want you to get the job done without complaint. And if you complain your seen as unco-operative...

Until it becomes legislation about engineers working hours, the tiredness factor,due to working hours, in HF will never be taken seriously. The industry as a whole has to take it seriously and not just a few suits in the EASA, that think its a great idea to tell all the engineers to be aware of all the pressures around them without actually doing anything about it.

It's the people who hold the purse strings that need to take it seriously!!!!!!!! And the only way they'll do that is if it's law.

[WOTME?]

Very well put

[Krystal n chips]

"the only way they'll do that is if it's law "


Almost correct but with one tiny error.....the law may well be written down but the only time the beancounters / "management" will actually take notice, rather than pay lip service to the legislation as per usual, is when it is enforced and a court finds against those whose responsibility it is ( in theory, given that abrogation of responsibility is the norm here..... the kudos and benefits of their positions being far more relevant...to them :mad:) that they may sit up and take notice. It's now 2008......there may be a significant delay before such transpires.....about 100 yrs as a rough guess :rolleyes:

And this article is far from off topic.....but wholly relevant I feel. Read the bit about management pressure.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7368639.stm

[N1 Vibes]

K and C

to add to your case, we have HF training at my firm. They show the Transport Canada film of the 'solid' worker who has a bad day and misses a bolt or something. The supervisor wants to fire his @ss, but the HF trained manager turns the situation around.

Recently, a person here was virtually nailed for something that was a procedural/managerial cock-up. So they made an example of them to their peers by sending them 'to Coventry'. God, you gottat luv colonial style, pidgeon-english management!

I read a story about the legend Bob Hoover and somebody short-fuelling his plane at a display/race, then it crashed. Bob was OK, and heard they were going to fire this guy. Bob said that he would be happy for him to fuel his plane again and again, since the lesson had been learnt and the mistake was unlikely to happen again with this man.

Just my 2 or 3 penneth.

Brgd's

N1 Vibes