Delta/America West merger?

[non sched]

Holly Hegeman, and aviation analyst in the US, is speculating on a Delta/America West merger. Apparently talks have gotten to the point that the Unions have been advised.

[TowerDog]

Brand new rumor to this TowerDog.. .. .The America West guys would be more than happy to get on Delta's payscale meh thinks.. .. .Then there is the seniority issue.. .Date of hire??. .Junior Delta captains giving their seats to senior AW guys. Yeah right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[LAVDUMP]

I've heard that rumor at Delta as well. . .. .Strategicallly, it is distinctly possible given Delta's lack of significant West Coast presence - it depleted Western's former dominance over the years... I am sure Delta could also pick up America West on the cheap given its continuous poor financial condition. One problem: hub cannibalization - three hubs in a 500-mile radius - Salt Lake, Las Vegas and Phoenix. Las Vegas is a good idea given the popularity of the city and the good use of night flights - perhaps Salt Lake and Phoenix get consolidated - Phoenix is the better of the two choices (warmer weather and newer facilities).. .. .I say - go for it Delta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd like to see those A319s in Delta colors!. .. .Cheers

[LAVDUMP]

Tower Dog,. .. .Don't expect the strong Delta union to give ANYTHING to the AWA pilots. I don't fly for Delta (and don't speak for their pilots), but I would expect an American-TWA scenario - either staple the AWA pilots to the BOTTOM of the Delta list or utilize a formula that is not too generous for the AWA pilots - maybe 1:15 with date of hire also included. Probably the first choice - also note the Reno Air/American disaster - but Reno Air pilots are certainly better off for it.... .. .My brother works for Delta as a 757 FO, and in his 3rd year total, he already earns more than a 15 year America West CAPTAIN. If the transaction takes place, AWA pilots should feel fortunate to be a part of a somwhat "stable" airline - living on the "edge" for too long can't be much fun... . .. .Of course, it should also be understood that all Delta pilots currently on furlough (hundreds) would also have to be called back before any AWA pilot gets a seat of the proposed combined airline... In the end, joining Delta would be worth it due to the much higher pay and the stability factor - AWA pilots should recognize that..... .. .Cheers

[tinyrice]

Lavdump is right, Delta made such a pigs ear of merging the two airlines that they nullified any synergy they may have got from the merger, and allowed American and Southwest in particular to move into their turf. Its hard to see how anybody at AWA can think that they will improve their seniority position given the recent American / TWA deal that still has the legal eagles trying to sort out the mess. They may improve their financial situation unless AWA becomes a "Delta Lite" operation. Again given the mess Delta got into with their Express operation in Cincinatti that seems unlikely. They're more likley to use the situation to bring their mainline operation back to full strength, and then pick and choose anything of value that AWA has and build on that. AWA has also developed a hub in Columbus Ohio which has Delta at CVG and Continental at Cleveland, so it would be hard to see three hubs in Ohio being sustainable. Likewise with Vegas and Phoenix, especially as the Salt Lake Delta hub is the Vegas overflow outlet. As AWA is the only US airlines to accept Government largesse( so far ) in the wake of 9/11,their financial position makes them vulnerable. That vulnerability will still not make it easier for AWA employees to accept amalgamation into Delta - see TWA. PLus DL is non-union in the mechanic and flight attendant area so the seniority battles there should be a beauty.

[spagiola]

There is a precedent. When Delta took over Western, all the Western pilots went to the bottom of Delta's seniority list. Long-time captains suddenly became FOs. 15 years later, they are still bitter about it. And as others have pointed out, Delta had little success in operating in the west anyway (though they fared somewhat better than USAir did with PSA, and American with AirCal).

[Raas767]

Don't waste your breath. Holy Hegeman doesn't know a damned thing!. .She is one of those "Airline Analysts" who "predict" all manner of things that never happen.

[411A]

Good grief, why in the world would Delta want to acquire America West...just wait awhile and they are likely to disapear anyway. No need to pay good money for a loser. OTOH, maybe HP could become a "Delta Express". . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 02:43: Message edited by: 411A ]</small>

[Kubota]

411A, I bit my tongue a while back on FH, but I am going to say something to YOU, personally: . .. .Why are you filled with such acrimony towards anyone with a half-decent shot of making a good life for themselves?. .. .What happened to your career(?) that fills you with such bitterness towards other people aspiring to a stable airline job?. .. .If America West guys have a chance at a better life and salary, more power to them, I say. No doubt Delta will do their homework and if the shoe fits.... .. .Do you ever look at the sahuaro and wonder at it's magnificence, the very fact that it grows in the desert, or just complain about the thorns?. .. . <img src="http://www.huffrealty.com/images/sahuaro.jpg" alt="" /> . .. .For crying out loud, try and be a better person!

[TowerDog]

LAVDUMP:. .. .APA was fairly generous to the TWA pilots.. .They did not get stapled to the bottom, (Should have in my opinion as that is an APA by-law)neither did they get some 1-15 intergration.. .(More like 1-8). .. .As for Delta "Light". Doubt it, surely the Delta pilots has a scope clause. (With the usual excemptions for Comair.). .. .Now we just need morons like "Downin3green" to issue more death threats to the Delta guys that are looking to protect their seniority.. .. .If this comes through, the A.W. guys are indeed lucky regardless of seniority, the payscale say's it all.. .. .(Hello TWA and Senator Bond, still dreaming about the moon and a free rocket to get there?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Ignition Override]

Do you guys/gals really want to be baited like that? Pilots often believe any rumour.. .. .Just how much America West stock shares has Holly Hegeman (or her analyst partners) bought?. .. .Does anyone remember seeing those Pan Am A-300s at Delta's Atlanta hangar, while taxiing uphill to runway 26L? For those with short memories, former Pan Am planes did not fly very long, and not many Pan Am pilots were hired by Delta, yes, at least interviewed etc, before they were allowed to wear the Delta uniform.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 06:09: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</small>

[411A]

Gosh Kubota, you are touchy...are you annoyed perhaps now that the open skies (HKG-USA) talks have collapsed, once again...relax dear boy and take a pill.

[Spad]

How many of the bottom-dwelling pond life who went out to Australia in 1989 are still with America West? Good luck to the rest of the AW pilots in any merger with Delta – quite the opposite wishes to those others.

[Fubaar]

Yeah, what ever happened to ‘Fast Eddie’ and the rest of those sorry losers who came out to Melbourne? I heard that the vast majority of AmericaWest pilots looked upon them pretty much the same way as we in Australia did. If their names aren’t on the ALPA scab list because they were only ‘temporary’ scabs, they damn well should be.

[ironbutt57]

Nice to see all the "alpo brothers" displaying their solidarity again..no doubt the knives are flying fast and furious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> by the way fubar their names are indeed in the "scablist"...but once again good old alpo saw fit to ignore it's own threats when it saw fit... . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 15:52: Message edited by: ironbutt57 ]</small>

[TR4A]

Ignition Override said:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Does anyone remember seeing those Pan Am A-300s at Delta's Atlanta hangar, while taxiing uphill to runway 26L? For those with short memories, former Pan Am planes did not fly very long, and not many Pan Am pilots were hired by Delta, yes, at least interviewed etc, before they were allowed to wear the Delta uniform.. .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Those A-300's were A-310's. About 760 Pan Am pilots and flight engineers went to Delta. The pilots were merged and the FE's were placed on the bottom. PAA FE's were not with ALPA. We had our own union, FEIA. The FE's started at Delta on 1 September 1991 but were placed on the seniority list as of 1 November 1991 behind two months of new hires.. .. .Former PAA FEO (not with DAL)

[TR4A]

spagiola said:. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There is a precedent. When Delta took over Western, all the Western pilots went to the bottom of Delta's seniority list. Long-time captains suddenly became FOs. 15 years later, they are still bitter about it. And as others have pointed out, Delta had little success in operating in the west anyway (though they fared somewhat better than USAir did with PSA, and American with AirCal).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"><a href="http://www.alpa.org/MEC/AAA/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0102/merger0201.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.alpa.org/MEC/AAA/docs/newmectoday/arc/airwaves/aw0102/merger0201.pdf</a>. .. . Delta-Western . .. .The merger representatives for these two pilot groups concluded a seniority integration agreement under ALPA Merger Policy in May of 1987. A series of ratios were used to construct the list according to the following methodology. Positions held by each pilot group were determined as of September, 1986, the month of the merger announcement. Positions were combined based on similar equipment type. The first equipment grouping included only Delta L-1011-500s, because Western did not fly any comparable equipment. The second grouping included Delta L-1011-1s and Western DC-10-10s. The third, fourth and fifth groupings were composed respectively of Delta's B-767s, DC-8-71s, and B-757s, again with no comparable equipment from Western. The sixth grouping included B-727 aircraft from both carriers, and the seventh grouping included B-737s and DC-9s from Delta and B-737s from Western. In order to allow for a more even distribution of Western pilots throughout the list, Western pilots were added to groupings to which Western had not contributed equipment. Because there was uncertainty over whether former Western pilots over age 60 would be provided employment at Delta as second officers, the merger representatives agreed on two lists, one including the older Western pilots and one excluding them. The seniority integration agreement included several conditions and restrictions designed to protect pre-merger flying and expectations. Delta pilots within three years of retirement were protected from displacement by Western pilots to prevent a diminution of retirement income based on final average earnings. European and Pacific flying within the then-current Delta system was reserved for Delta pilots for three years. All West Coast and Hawaii flying as well as new international flying were avail- able to all pilots based on system seniority. The parties agreed as well that the pre-merger Delta pilots would be guaranteed all positions awarded in 1987 on pre-merger or newly delivered Delta aircraft. The parties also provided for the conversion and protection of all positions and entitlements held by pre-merger Western pilots under their previous annual system bids. Pilots from both pre-merger groups were protected in the positions they held at the end of 1987, and could not be displaced by pilots of the other group until July 31, 1990. Until that date, Western pilots were guaranteed at least 1,261 pilot positions at former Western bases, barring circumstances beyond Delta's control.. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 18:15: Message edited by: TR4A ]</small>

[Ignition Override]

Good points TR4A: I wondered if they were A-310s, but am glad that so many found employment with Delta. Thanks for the clarification. . .. .Did Delta ever hire Eastern pilots after Eastern went down, or interview any Eastern pilots? Maybe someone out there can shed some light on this subject, also. Did Delta Captain Hank Duffy (former ALPA Chairman) try to get any Eastern pilots interviews at Delta? Many pilots in the industry were curious after Eastern went down.. .. .Are any of these questions awkward to address?

[TowerDog]

Negative on the Eastern Pilots getting jobs with Delta.. .Still bitter feelings out there.

[TR4A]

Pan Am had hired some in 1989. Some were hired at UAL. We have a few at Southwest.

[GlueBall]

Anybody higher up on the food chain who has a clue about the probability of the merger? May be a good time to buy some AWA stock at basement prices right now! (NYSE, $5.47) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[shon7]

This is typical of the industry these days. Can anyone please enlighten me - If America West hasn't been able to operate and make good profits on these routes (with a supposedly lower cost structure); how does Delta think they can change this around?

[tinyrice]

Economies of scale........ obvious - right???

[411A]

Not really....the problem with America West is that they have made many fundamentally WRONG decisions over the years....and Southwest cleans their plate on nearly every route, even out of Phoenix. The problems started with Conway and his attitude and has not gotten much better over the years.. .Delta should realise the HP is a can of worms...to be avoided IMHO.

[PaperTiger]

May or may not have anything to do with this particular rumour, but CO is cancelling codeshares on HP wef the summer schedule.. .<a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020327/n27146132_1.html" target="_blank">http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020327/n27146132_1.html</a>

[411A]

Yes indeed...and NOT good news for HP.

[ironbutt57]

Towerdog....'cept of course Mr Babbit, the then prez of alpo...who did become a delta capt!? correct me if i'm wrong?