ATCers: Where do they fall?

[G-NICK]

One thing that I have often wondered: Are RAF Air Traffic Controllers attached to squadrons, bases, etc? I have often wondered how they are organised.

I hope that makes sense.

TIA

[BluntM8]

The RAF is broken down into Groups. A Group is broken down into Stations. Stations have Wings (usually 3, called something like Flying Wg, Forward Wg and Base Support Wg, or Ops, Eng and Admin in old money!). Wings have Sqns.

Usually, ATC is a Sqn, which comes under Ops Wg. The ATC Sqn may be split into Flights, or shifts.

In short, a separate sqn from the others.

Blunty

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe the organisation is also supposed to be able to support 3, or maybe it was 4, expeditionary ATC units. One, it was hoped, would be Mount Pleasant which would mean they only had to find 2 (3) more.

Unlike ATC Sqns on main bases where pesonnel might rotate on 2-3 year drip feed basis the expeditionary units would rotate on the short OOA basis.

[FantomZorbin]

G-NICK

On an ad-hoc basis, it was common practice for a flying Squadron to have a 'Tame Air Trafficker'(TAT) who spent time in a Squadron Crew Room. The TAT would get an understanding of the deeper elements of the role and requirements of the crews so that this could be brought back to the tower and the 'gospel' be spread amongst the ATC staff. Furthermore, the crews were able to query ATC procedures/practices and get an idea of when and why things happened in particular ways.

It was a really useful arrangement as so many misconceptions/situations could be quickly and easily resolved over a coffee/beer. Speaking as an ex-ATCer it was so useful to have a grip on the pilot's 'viewpoint' when the chips were down and the crew needed every bit of help it could get - and this included knowing when ATC should shut-up when the crew was busy 'in the office'!

The only down side I can remember (only 'cos Mrs FZ reminds me:uhoh:) was a particularly vicious encounter with strawberry champagne:yuk:

[G-NICK]

Thanks very much for your replies. Makes sense now.

[spekesoftly]

There were other duties. I'm talking about the really important stuff like scrounging lots of flights on the early morning 'weather ship', and various SCT trips. Helping to eat up surplus night flying suppers was another, and most importantly, attending the post night flying beer calls etc! Happy days ;)

[Il Duce]

Spinning on from Fantom Zorbin's post: During TTTE times at Cottesmore I occasionally had to go to the Sqns to give an ATC brief to the student Tonka flyers. On one visit I met a RAF pilot who had completed the JATCC whilst holding between different stages of his flying training - how's that for getting an understanding of what goes on at the other end of the r/t.
Anyone know of other flyers who've done the same?

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Who cares? They're all g%ts

[BluntM8]

Il Duce, that's an interesting story. Did it make him any better in the air?

I've occasionally wondered about doing somthing similar - for example, the Fighter Control course, or JATCC. But what stops me is the possible reaction from other students on the cse. I wonder how they might feel about an aircrew mate doing their professional training just "because they can". Hopefully they would understand the motives but you can bet someone would get the arse about it.

Thinking about it I know of at least 3 pilots (one each of FJ, RW and ME) who have done the All Arms Commando cse.


Blunty

[Lurking123]

There was a Nimrod driver and two Tornado 'mud' Navs (both with significant GW1 experience) in the early 90s. Don't know what happened to the Nimrod chap but one of the Navs went back to flying after 3 years and the other branch changed, got to Wg Cdr and is now the boss of the Examining Board!!

[FantomZorbin]

Il Duce

Now I think of it, yes I can - one happened to have been an ex-stude of mine on JATCC, he went to The Tatty Ton and the last I saw of him was on E3Ds; another came from Canberras and went on to the SAR world - a very competent guy.

The more I dredge back through the past, I seem to remember that there was a significant number of aircrew doing ground tours in ATC between op. postings in the early 60s - there seemed, to a naive yoof anyway, to be less of an 'Us & Them' and more of a 'We' rapport between ATC and aircrew in those days. Must get these rose-tinted specs cleaned!!

[Wader2]

I seem to remember that there was a significant number of aircrew doing ground tours in ATC between op. postings in the early 60s - there seemed, to a naive yoof anyway, to be less of an 'Us & Them' and more of a 'We' rapport between ATC and aircrew in those days.

Last bit first, some towers were les conducive to mixing than others. Finningly was on the far side of the airfield. They could come to work through the back gate and depart never having been landside. For aircrew to visit you needed an airfield driving permit.

As for aircrew doing other jobs, the stn adjt was usually a career ex-cranners GD officer. First tourist pilots were often given second tours as ops, sim instructor, Canberra or even FAC as well as ATC and FC to increase their maturity. Remember, in those days it was quite normal for a pilot to complete his first tour and be only 23 yrs old or less. With 5 year commissions many would do a ground tour for their second and final tour.

Then there were the ground branch imports to the aircrew. Several docs underwent the full pilot course and an operational tour to better suit them to the AVMed role. One our wing we had an Elect Eng officer who did a tour on the Vulcan as an AEO. There were many others.

[Pure Pursuit]

I can see the value in getting a few aircrew through the Weapons Controller Course up at Boulmer however, there are a few issues with it:

1. Slots on the courses are very tight, with only 5 studes on each course.

2. Completing the WCC would only give you a very small insight into the FC world, the high workload experienced by an WC on a busy sortie would not be experienced until you started CR training & controlling TLP waves etc.

3. The pass rate for FJ mates coming through is not fantastic, particularly those who have gone onto try and pass the E3D course.

It would be far easier if a few FJ mates bothered to visit either of the CRCs or perhaps the E3 guys for a full day & actually get to see the workload that exists during a busy flying wave. I appreciate the workload on sqns however, some units demonstrate an appailling understanding of airspace restrictions. See & avoid is not always an option!

I have heard several stories, all recent, of F3 and Typhoon mates REFUSING to take Radar Control turns as they thought they knew better!

The Typhoon guys refused to turn as they were heading for an IP, the fact that there was civil traffic climbing through their 12 o clock did not deter them. Civil ATC went beserk & quite rightly so.

The F3 mate refused to descend as it would have taken him into cloud. He broke min sep on an airliner.

I believe that much of the problem is born out of the fact that the Typhoons and F3s spend so much time in the MDAs & rarely operate (tactically) in Class C airspace.

On the other side of the fence, I am certain that FCs could learn a great deal from regular contact with the FJ mates and hopefully improve the service provided.

A little more contact between the branches would go a long way.

[Wader2]

It would be far easier if a few FJ mates bothered to visit either of the CRCs or perhaps the E3 guys for a full day & actually get to see the workload that exists during a busy flying wave. I appreciate the workload on sqns.

Sadly busy is a way of life and always was. However sqns at ISK and ISL used to programme the big crews for 'crew training weeks' where the crew would put together a programme - one was visit Faslane, Pitreavie and Rosyth. Another was Boulmer, Finningley etc.

In earlier days, with practically colocated CRC/Unit - Gata and Magdelana for instance - it was much easier to arrange a full day meaningful visit.

[Il Duce]

Memory becoming less foggy................ah yes the OC Ops at Wittering a few years back was from the Air Defence branch and, in order to get a better understanding of the Harrier world, completed the OCU ground school.

[FantomZorbin]

Wader2

Yes, I agree. I'd forgotten about Finningley - was there in late 60s and early 70s, but there was still a good rapport however that was probably more to do with the Scruffs' Bar!!