London Croydon Airport movements list 1939

[WHBM]

Somewhere in my book collection (much archived up in the attic) there is a page or two with a list of the movements at Croydon Airport on the last weekend of August 1939. I've looked in all the obvious books but it is not there. Does this ring a bell with anybody who can point me in the right direction. I am sure it is up there somewhere.Is it in one of the books on the airport published by Sutton Libraries ? (there were several such).

I seem to recall the list had been taken by an Air Cadet who spent time at the airport in those days. Thanks for any help.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Sutton, Surrey library has a shelf on Croydon Airport which came in useful when I was researching Imperial Airways.

The movements you require are listed in general as British Airways, before it became BOAC. There is some good stuff there.

[bigal1941]

I have at hand 4 books published by the London Borough of Sutton Library and Arts Services, they are.

The First, the Fastest and the Famous compiled by Douglas Cluett. " A cavalcade of Cropydon Airport, events and celebrities"

The Great Days, Croydon Airport 1928-1939 by Douglas Cluett, Joanna Nash and Bob Learmonth.

Croydon Airport and the Battle of Britain 1939-1940, by the same authers.

Croissants at Croydon, " the memoirs of Jack Bamford"

There is another which I cant find which details the final days.

Hope this helps Alan

[WHBM]

Yes, I have all those as well. I believe that Roy Smith, long-serving chief librarian at Sutton Library, was an aviation buff and once organised an airshow on the old Croydon site in more recent times with Tiger Moths etc. The books on the airport he got published are well done (would recommend "Croissants" to all here).

[treadigraph]

Thjere were two airshows organised by Sutton Council and the Tiger Club; one was around 1980 with an Amy Johnson theme, the other which I attended was around 1987 or 88 I think. Still remember Ray Hanna bringing the Spitfire in low between a block of flats and a chimney stack which sat astride the B axis!

Just peering at the site from my eagle's nest office in Croydon thinking wouldn't it be nice to have another, but I suspect budgets, regulations and insurance requirements would not permit it these days...

[DennisK]

Treadigraph ... if you could organize something like that, I'd offer my heli display FOC just to be there. Also know a few other DAs who might do the same on fixed wing.

Dennis Kenyon.

[WHBM]

I'd be first there too if only to watch !!! Dennis, your displays at London City are one of the highlights of the Fun Days there. Even Mrs WHBM :) who doesn't know one end of an aircraft from the other likes watching from across the dock.

In the "real" days at Croydon such an event would be called either an "Aerial Pageant" or a "Garden Party".

[PPRuNe Pop]

The airport closed in September 1959 and most aeroplanes and clubs moved to Biggin Hill, Surrey and Kent for example. CFI I think was ? Chinn - forgotten his first name.

The first airshow was on 15th May 1980 - just checked my logbook. It so happens I was the first aircraft to land there since its closure. It was a good day I have to say, what with the nostalgia of the place and some fantastic aeroplanes. I lived close to the airport, still do, and watched the war when I was allowed out.

[No comment]

Sounds like a CroyBash is brewing....

[treadigraph]

Dennis, if it were within me gift (and capabilities!) I'd do it! Gosh, it's twenty years since the last show - I wonder if the surface is as reasonably smooth as it was then... Nearly fifty since it closed - perhaps Sutton could organise something to commemorate it next year?

Pop, came a cross a pic of your Islander the other day ('DWG wasn't it?) taking school kids on joy rides out of Biggin I think. I'll try and relocate it. Caption didn't say who was flying.

A CroyBash - I'd be up for it...

[DennisK]

Now this is a 'rumour network' ... so here goes.

One of the guys who is in the air display business is the ex CAA inspector and long time display pilot .... John Davis. Then ex Reds leader Tim Miller (Blenheim - Fly to the Past) Next the ex organisor of the North Weald Air Fair events is display pilot, Anthony Hutton.

The Croydon Model Aircraft Club run an annual show with full scale fixed wing and helicopters at Hop Oast Farm, Kent. Theresa and Roger Godley are the names there.

With the 50 year date approaching, it would seem a super possibility to me, but probably no fast jets.

I guess one would need the co-operation of the Croydon Chamber of Commerce and the Croydon Council. I'm seeing the CAA GAD, Rob Metcalfe tomorrow at the DAE Seminar. I'll raise the idea for CAA feedback.

Anyone interesting in getting the idea going, I'll put you in touch with the names.

Displaying at Croydon ... where in the 1940s, I used to cycle out from Wimbledon to stick my nose against the railings and watch the aircraft. Pure nostalgia.

A while back a certain Mr O'Brien seemed to own the airport. Not sure if he still does. I know he invited me to land by the control tower (now the car park) to meet him around the mid 1990s. Bell Jetranger, G-BUZZ for the reggie buffs.

Best wishes all at 'Nostalgia!'

Dennis Kenyon.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Dennis me dear chap, check your PM's

PPP

[treadigraph]

As I say, it's not something I could organise, but if it were able to happen I would certainly try to lend a hand!

However I do tend to think the restrictions of the site as it is now, plus good old Twenty First Century environmentalism would militate against it happening, quite apart form the sheer costs involved. The airport site straddles the Croydon and Sutton Borough boundaries.

Googlemap (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=croydon&ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=51.350102,-0.12615&spn=0.010172,0.026994&z=16)

The area criss-crossed with paths is that used for the last display in ‘88. I'm pretty sure the housing estate off the western end of area has been developed since the last show (not Roundshaw to the Northwest!). The area now seems to be a “managed open space” as opposed to what I remember as unkempt common land twenty years ago.

On the other hand, not only is September 2009 50 years since the airport closed, but also 70 years since the outbreak of World War II in which Croydon Airport played quite a part, so surely Croydon and Sutton could organise something that September. Close enough to the 15th and the BBMF might send the flight along - they normally do a flypast of the memorial around then I think.

The one thing I can do now is have a chat with one of my directors who is involved with Croydon Chamber of Commerce/Business in the Community/Future Croydon/etc, so he may be able to sow a seed or two of interest.

Cheers

Treadders

PS: a Croydon-based Bash would be simple to organise (if not any cheaper!) - anyone up for it and suggestions for a venue (Croydon Airport Hotel bar?). :ok:

[WHBM]

Treadders :

If you can suggest a date for a bash I'm sure several here will come :) Do Croydon Airport Hotel still know which was the room they set up as a private bar for pilots in the 1930s after they were banned from the refreshment room over in the terminal next door which had become their evening haunt ?

Possibly during daylight (ie weekend) rather than evening so we can walk round the field as well. I'll bring my wellies.

[Seloco]

PrunePop wrote:
The airport closed in September 1959 and most aeroplanes and clubs moved to Biggin Hill, Surrey and Kent for example. CFI I think was ? Chinn - forgotten his first name.

He was Peter Chinn, and I am eternally grateful to him for allowing my great uncle Gordon Carey - one of his instructors - to take his great nephew up in Aircoupes and C150s during school holidays "for weather checks". That not only taught me the rudiments of flying but also instilled a love of aviation that has so far lasted 45 years.

Another instructor at S&K was "Tiny" Marshall, inevitably so called because he was HUGE!

BTW Surrey and Kent's twin taildragger at the time (mid60s) was Rapide G-AKIF, still regularly flying at Duxford in spite of once losing its tailwheel courtesy of an abandoned Biggin Hill Air Fair tentpeg......

[DennisK]

I spoke to the CAA Display Chief today and raised the idea of an airshow at Croydon.

I got an immediate 'yes' as far as the CAA were concerned, but subject to knowing and possibly restricting many 'unsuitable' types. (aircraft types that is!)

I guess the local nimbys would get excited.

Dennis Kenyon.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Dennis, I think the idea of another display there was looked at but the London Borough of Sutton decided that with the many new houses now occupying the site it is not feasible. But still a fine idea.

Seloco, Peter Chinn of course. I knew 'Tiny' Marshall well during the time we were all at Biggin, a great guy in all senses of the word.

Treadders, BDWG was indeed my Islander, and it did do 'joy flights' at Biggin but I wouldn't have been flying it.

As for a 'bash' it would be a good thing and the best time would probably be on a day that the Croydon Airport Society - http://www.croydonairport.org.uk/ - have one of their open days. With airport hotel next door it would be the perfect place to retire to for a bevvy or two.

I would definitely be up for that.

PPP

[treadigraph]

Dennis,

Had a word with my colleague, he thinks he knows who best to talk with at Croydon council - unfortunately I subsequently imbibed quantities of a certain liquid substance derived from apples which has buried the gist of our chat in the uncharted territories of my mind. So I'll speak with him again on Tuesday! PS, I may be an unsuitable type!

PPP,

Oddly enough that was the gist of a PM I just sent to WHBM. Another colleague mentioned the tours and it sounds exactly what we should do. I'll find out when the next ones are - WHBM suggests mid to late April at the earliest. Cor, a bash I can walk to!

Cheers

Treadders

[Phileas Fogg]

Does the 194 bus still run to 'Croydon Airport'?

Just remicising my childhood & tenage years in Croydon circa 1965-1976 :)

[merlinxx]

Plse keep us all advzd re the bash, agree on an open day would be best.

I spent much time in the 50s school hols at Croydon as my Pappa was there with Olley (remember weekend flts to Deauville & Le Touq for the gambling & beach) then the Ministry afore getting posted to Hounslow Bus Garage, then Our Little Airport in the Country (LGW).

An aside, I spent many happy (ho hum) on the real -XL ex LGW, especially the greyhound charters to Deauville & Le Touq. I was with BUA, but Morton's was our little brother, great little operation with 'Tommy' Gunn as CP.

Phileas

Only bus routes past the aerodrome these days are the 455 from Purley & 119 from East Croydon.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I always blamed Croydon for my appalling O level results! I was an avid spotter on on my first day at senior school I was amazed to see aeroplanes just out of the window - Croydon was less than a mile from my school and I spent many hours after school peering at the aircraft when I should have been home swatting!! Oh the memories of Burmese Air Force Provosts, Iran Air Force Daks... and everything in those days had a propellor. What bliss..

[Fly380]

I seem to remember A Tiger Moth hitting a 194 bus in the late 50's. Only damage was a dent on the roof of the bus.:)
HEATHROW DIRECTOR - you didn't go to Cumnor House school in Pampisford road did you? It was right on shortish finals for Croydon. All the aircraft came right over at what seemed like rooftop height. Certainly stimulated my interest in aviation.:ok:

[treadigraph]

Will do some investigating on tours tomorrow. I see the Monospar in another current thread was built at Croydon.

Re the bus services, the 289 passes Croydon Airport en route from Purley station to God Knows Where (Beckenham Junction?), and the 119 terminates at the airport afore heading back to Bromley via East Croydon Station. The 194 is curtailed at West Croydon, a fine example of Ken Livingstone's service improvements. 455 goes up Pampisford Road rather than past the airport and thence to Wallington via the most convoluted route known to Nerdkind... Arrrrghhh, I'm talking about bus routes, Nurse! :8

Cheers

Blakey

[southender]

Getting back to the original posting, almost, an old edition of 'Propliner' magazine, I think it was No. 23, had an article on the final days of Croydon and gave a complete listing of movements for the final day of operations.

The magazine editor appears to have an unparalled knowledge of UK airport movements and may be able to assist with your enquiries.

Cheers

Southender

[merlinxx]

Stephen Piarcy (R.I.P) who started Propliner back in '79 was the son of one Capt. Ray Piarcy of BEA/BA. I don't think there is an archive for the mag, so you'll need to drag 'em out storage.

[treadigraph]

I've had some information from Dr Frank Anderson of the Croydon Airport Society. The guides can manage up to 10 people in one go - if there are more takers, perhaps we can arrange more than one sitting on the day.

The tours takes about 1.5hr and he suggests early May would be best which would certainly suit me.

How about the Sunday 11 May - this would avoid the Bank Holiday weekend? I was going to suggest a tour starting at say 1100 or 1200; we could then retire to the Aerodrome Hotel for a few pints afterwards.

PPruNe Pop, this might deserve a separate sticky thread?

Cheers

Treadders

[WHBM]

I'm out of the country at the moment so have got an advantage as I see this note while having an early lunch !

Date suits me, Treadders can you put me down for May 11 please. Thank you for the research and organisation. I wouldn't be able to make the following weekend.

[merlinxx]

Me also SVP

[PPRuNe Pop]

Treadders,

I'm in!

I'll see what I can do about the sticky. We limit them and are a bit full at the minute.

We should meet for a beer. Week after next OK?

PPP

[treadigraph]

PPP, have PM'd you...

Treadders

[ONE GREEN AND HOPING]

Cumnor House School in Pampisford road mentioned by FLY380 in #22 was evacuated at the tail end of 1939, and out of 99 boys, 20 moved for a while to the Old Saw Mill in Sanderstead. ( "until machine gun bullets began spraying the classroom walls" ) 29 moved as boarders to the country. The R.A.F. took over the building that I imagine remains as CHS Mk 2 until around 1946.

At a book launch last May, I had the privilege of talking to Dick Wheeler, who in 1931 was the first ever pupil at CHS which was started by Martin Wheeler, his father. He described to me just how close the aircraft passed by the school, and that he had never forgotten their astonishment in earlier times at seeing passenger/s waving from windows set into the leading edge wing root of a German airliner. I suppose this has to be the Junkers G38 which I looked up on the internet later on. I was delighted to re-discover this machine that resembles nothing so much as an insane Brobdingnagian Art Deco Batmobile. What a delight. I would travel many times further to watch one of these stagger into the air than an Airbus 380. ( which with all this so-called Green technology still can't operate off grass! - probably less prone to icing problems I'd imagine though....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP6Qvvdb1io

............If you have a spare 5 minutes, this is a rather well edited video clip, complete with appropriate sound track.

[S'land]

ONE GREEN AND HOPING:

Great video. That aircraft is ugly enough to be called beautiful. Fully agree that it is better looking than a modern jet airliner, even if the mofern ones are more reliable and faster.

[WHBM]

Bumped - as I'm just home and putting 11 May in my calendar :)

[treadigraph]

Ok chaps, will check 11th is OK with Dr Anderson.

Cheers

Treadders

[Cricket23]

I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but did any of you go to the 'London Society of Air-Britain' talk last Wednesday evening at the Victory Services Club?

The talk on the history of Croydon Airport was given by Dr Frank Anderson and Peter Skinner. Fascinating it was. I never knew that the airport actually started out as two separate airfields that were split by Plough Lane. When the airport was remodelled in 1928 Plough Lane was ploughed up (sorry about the pun!) and Croydon Airport as we know it was born.

I can't make the time suggested as it cuts across my church duties, but if it moves to a bit later can someone PM me please. Thanks.

Regards,

Cricket

[treadigraph]

Cricket, what time could you make it? I've just been invited to an 80th birthday party at a pub the day before and you know what that usually means! So I'd be happy with a later start.

If 1200 or 1300 would suit all, I'll try and arrange for then.

Treadders

[Cricket23]

Hi Treadders, very kind.

I could be there at 1:00 (at a pinch).

By the way, one other thing that came up at the Croydon Airport talk was that the last commercial flight out was flown by 'Captain Last'! Strange, but true.

Regards,

Cricket.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Did I see crop circles on the runway, at Croydon International. ????

The previous rereferenced G Earth, shows crop circles.

Or perhaps D.K. has been picking mushrooms again.

glf

[A30yoyo]

Enjoyable video (missed the display in 1980)....did you transfer by projecting on a screen and filming with a digicam?

[WHBM]

Is that a certain PPRuNer flying an Islander in, in the first few seconds ? :)

[pasir]

On the nostalgia trail - Further to Croydon in '39 (or '40) -I recall as an infant wandering along Foresters Drive to observe what was presumably the initial arrival of the RAF - in Gloster Gladiators ! Many houses in Foresters drive were requisitioned for the pilots who could be seen relaxing in chairs in the front gardens. Bottles of milk seemed to be popular with them. A flak damaged Lancaster once attempted to land sometime around '43/44 but sadly crashed and burnt onto houses in Lavender Vale. Towards the end of the war some high ranking German officers were flown in to Croydon and placed under guard where my father was an Air Ministry Policeman. When war ended many airlines took up residence again where I joined the air traffic staff of KLM as a junior. It was an impressive sight to see Dakotas and JU52's lined up on the apron in the various liveries of KLM SABENA & AIR FRANCE. It was the practice in those days for KLM - upon landing - to fly the company pennant above the cockpit.
Several KLM pilots arriving at Croydon were ex USAAF .
When the major airlines moved out I later worked with Jersey Airlines
who ran scheduled svcs as did Morton Air Services - mostly to the
Channel Isles flying Herons Doves - and the occassional Rapide.
One of the last remaining memories of Croydon was its large flashing or revolving red beacon light observed from the top deck of the 654 trolley bus passing along Stafford Rd.