PDA

View Full Version : Formula 1


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33

ORAC
15th Mar 2008, 10:56
Vroom, vroom.....

New season and Lewis Hamilton on pole. :ok:

I wonder who FA is going to blame this year....... :E

Tigs2
15th Mar 2008, 10:59
This should end up being a long long thread QRAC:ok:

Richard Taylor
15th Mar 2008, 11:07
{Ecclestone to Moseley: Hamilton must be stopped by ALL possible means...}

:eek:

Barkly1992
15th Mar 2008, 11:43
Please take the Melbourne GP somewhere else. We can't afford it.

Now that should start sometink.

Beatriz Fontana
15th Mar 2008, 12:32
Nice to hear that normal service has been resumed! The commentators in the UK are already thinking that it's going to be a vintage season.

Sounds a little premature, but there you go :bored:

Capt.Grumpy
15th Mar 2008, 13:42
If Hamilton wins tomorrow the usual suspects on here will be absolutely multiple orgasmic in their praise. I can hardly wait :hmm:

wiggy
15th Mar 2008, 13:48
Blimey, is it paint drying season already?

Clarence Oveur
15th Mar 2008, 14:02
Getting the excuses in early I see.

hellsbrink
15th Mar 2008, 16:01
'Twas nice to see some lairy powerslides again now TC has gone

ORAC
15th Mar 2008, 16:13
Please take the Melbourne GP somewhere else. We can't afford it. Looks like you're gonna lose it anyway, cos you won't agree to a night/floodlit race in future. Apparently there are countries like India begging for races, and that means someone else loses one.

At least that means I will have to stop having to get up at 3:30 in the morning to watch the race..... :ouch:

hellsbrink
15th Mar 2008, 16:20
Getting up at that time isn't an issue to me, do the same for bikes, etc, too. Is part of the fun, imo

Capt.Grumpy
15th Mar 2008, 16:31
At least that means I will have to stop having to get up at 3:30 in the morning to watch the race..

Buy a recorder of some description like the rest of us :hmm: ,or if you have one learn how to use it.

I just hope Melbourne tells the Poison Dwarf to fcuk off. Night race so you poor little Europeans don't have to get up early...didums didums :rolleyes:

Besides, I think most people go to the AGP to watch the supporting races rather than F1. Most notably the V8 Supercars. Much as I hate to admit it they are a lot more interesting to watch.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
15th Mar 2008, 17:07
Now TC has gone, maybe Button will make storming comeback.

hellsbrink
15th Mar 2008, 17:14
Going by qualifying, he won't.

The Honda's a complete mutt. Again

Sir George Cayley
15th Mar 2008, 17:50
I want Kubice to qualify first at least once this season so we can hear the immortal words "The Pole is on Pole!!"


Look out for BMW - they just might find form.




Sir George Cayley

ChristiaanJ
15th Mar 2008, 18:11
Sir George,
Seems from what I read that Kubica very nearly made it...
Ah, that would have been: "The First Pole of the Year is a Pole!"

BombayDuck
15th Mar 2008, 21:12
We're 17 and 19! Woohoo! :hmm:

Of course, the only thing Indian about Force India is its owner... and what do we expect from the Spyker team anyway!

hellsbrink
15th Mar 2008, 21:19
16 and 18, BombayDuck, that legendary Oirish driver Tim O'Glock has been bumped down 10 places due to impeding someone in qualifying (5 spots) and having to get a new gearbox fitted (5 spots).

ChristiaanJ
15th Mar 2008, 21:38
Oh well....
In the absence of the proverbial adolescent in this household I've set up the video recorder myself....

Sadly our ancient trusty VHS recorder gave up the ghost not long ago (something mechanical which I couldn't fix). All I could find was a cheap Chinese clone which lacked the nice programming features of the ancient one - VHS recorders are a dying breed, but still a lot cheaper here than DVD recorders.

We'll see.... or not, as the case may be.

frostbite
15th Mar 2008, 21:49
The repeat is being shown at 1500 (probably race start at 1530) in the UK.

I might even be up and about for that - if I bother.

ChristiaanJ
15th Mar 2008, 21:57
frostbite,
If I can believe our French "TV magazine" they'll do a repeat at 9am local. On a Sunday that's just about the time I might stick my arm out from under the covers to turn on the coffee maker.

At 15:00 local theyll already be knee-deep into "analysing" their local elections.

merlinxx
15th Mar 2008, 22:40
I'll just be thinking of the finishing me 'Taffia' celebration (Triple Crown & The Slam) when the grid forms up in MEL.

Just let the best bloke with the best motor win, if it's LH, damn well done, if it's the Pole in a Beemer, damn well done, if it's Eric in a Lada, then very bloody well done!

Why do the English hate a winner, but hold a looser dear? I'm a Brit (not English, maybe Cornish), and I could never understand my Island brothers thought process.

ChristiaanJ
15th Mar 2008, 23:07
MerlinXX (which version of the Merlin is that, BTW? please explain),

Funny the way everyone picks his/hers own fan, no?

I still root for Coulthard, and couldn't really tell you why.

Lewis? The kind of rookie you'd expect to see somewhere at the end of the list. Instead of which, he only barely misses the championship last year, and starts off this season with another pole. I'll be crossing my fingers for him every race this year.

And I can't stand Alonso.

Personal preferences, every one of us, but it keeps the discussion going...

CJ

muppetofthenorth
15th Mar 2008, 23:38
Why do the English hate a winner, but hold a looser dear?

It's always seemed to me that the general opinion from the kind of people who make such assumptions think that winning is showing off...

Clarence Oveur
16th Mar 2008, 00:23
Lewis Hamilton is no rookie. He has been owned and groomed by McLaren for many years now.

He is undoubtedly a very good driver, but it's possible that he is as good as he's ever going to get.

I would like to see him in a team where he has to be better than the car.

Tigs2
16th Mar 2008, 07:10
Hamilton Takes it!! Well Done.


I have to say, after watching the race, Hamilton is as good/better than the car. There were drivers coming off all over the place, because they could not drive their cars with the new traction control limitations, Hamilton did.

ORAC
16th Mar 2008, 07:12
First win of the season for Hamilton. No, don't tell me, it's just the car.. :hmm:

Shame about the Ferraris..... :E:E

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 07:34
Was a good race, full of action.

Well done, Lew!

innuendo
16th Mar 2008, 07:46
The Coulthard Massa punch up should be entertaining if David carries out his threat. Guess they could not :mad:/ Bleep out his comment in time.

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 07:49
I look forward to the post-race report to see what they think of Massa's incident

Howard Hughes
16th Mar 2008, 08:49
I haven't watched a lot of F1 in recent years, but decided I would watch today's race with interest to see what the removal of TC has done for the sport. I gotta say I was quite impressed, a lot more skillful and interesting to watch, they may have just won back a former fan...:ok:

PS: Well done LH, I think he will be unstoppable this year, wouldn't be surprised if he breaks the record for the number of GP's won in a season!

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 09:11
As expected, Barichello disqualified for going through red light after his stop-go penalty.

Means Ferrari get 1 point now

ORAC
16th Mar 2008, 09:22
Means Ferrari get 1 point now Hmm, if Raikkonen gets a point, does that affect the status of the car for the next race?

What I mean is, it was obvious his car was in trouble and they'd need to do an engine change. If he finished, he would be penalised 10 places on the grid at the next race, not worth it for 1 point here. So, for that reason or for real, he stopped, so they could do the change without penalty.

If he now gets the point anyway, are they still allowed to do an engine change without penalty?

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 09:26
Doesn't change anything as Kimi never completed the race.

He can still change engine and gearbox with no penalty

Rollingthunder
16th Mar 2008, 09:53
Australian GP - more like Australian Demolition Derby.

What was it? - 7 finishers out of 22 starts.

I don't buy the not used to loss of TC - they had all off-season to practice.

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 09:58
A few retirements were mechanical problems, with people like Fisichella, Button, Webber and DC taken out by others. Not so much a lack of TC (was still nice to see some lairy slides), but a lack of spatial awareness in most cases.

sirwa69
16th Mar 2008, 11:56
Wanted

2 drivers who can keep a car on the track without the use of traction control.

Apply Ferrari :E

matt_hooks
16th Mar 2008, 13:32
See I think the removal of TC plays right into Lewis' hands. He's just come from many years racing cars without traction control and is "on the ball" whereas the old F1 types, who've got used to not having to worry too much about stomping on the throttle mid-corner seem to be taking a while to get with the programme.

Lewis always did enjoy hanging the back end out a bit, I'm sure he's in for a good season!

Tigs2
16th Mar 2008, 14:05
I agree that everyone has had all of the pre season to practice without TC, but that has not been under race conditions with 20 other cars and your heart doing 170 a minute.

matt

i agree. I think LH was the best driver there today, simple as that. Despite all the leads he built up being eroded time after time by the deployment of the safety car, he held it all together. Getting rid of part of the TC has been the best move they have made in a few years of F1. It should get really exciting at the first 'wet' race.

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 14:11
First wet race could be next weekend at Sepang, I'm seeing forecasts mentioning rain and thunderstorms there next weekend...

boristhemini
16th Mar 2008, 14:15
I went to bed straight after the podium...... tell me did Coulthard keep to his word on "....kick the s**t out of the little b*****d...." or did he get an apology?? Best live comment I've heard for a long time. I wonder if they'll edit it out on the highlights this afternoon?

hellsbrink
16th Mar 2008, 14:17
Since Massa was claiming it was DC's fault as he "was on the inside" (It doesn't work like that, Flippy) I doubt there has been an apology.

I can imagine quite a few words were said though...

beamender99
16th Mar 2008, 18:26
Australian GP - more like Australian Demolition Derby.

What was it? - 7 finishers out of 22 starts.



I agree. The race was a complete joke. It was just like banger racing but a little faster.

With our red light jumper "I did not see it" but I am about to be the driver with the most GPs, now black flagged, that leaves just 6 finishers with 2 dead cars gaining points.
I am astounded that teams do not abide by such simple rules as - a RED light means STOP - do not proceed.

Time to change the rules????

Papa Charlie
16th Mar 2008, 18:33
Just as well McLaren removed all the Ferrari bits (they were supposed to have stolen) - they obviously didn't want to end up in the gravel (twice) or with an engine failure like a certain red coloured team! :E

ChristiaanJ
16th Mar 2008, 19:03
I'm not French, but I live there.
And I thought the saddest moment was seeing Seb Bourdais' Toro Rosso going up in smoke, while he was fourth (!), two laps from the end in his first F1 race....

Watch that guy.

ORAC
16th Mar 2008, 19:56
I thought the saddest moment was seeing Seb Bourdais' Toro Rosso going up in smoke, while he was fourth (!), two laps from the end in his first F1 race.... He got two points regardless....

tinpis
16th Mar 2008, 21:34
What sorta money being offered for Webber to COMPLETE a race?

aviate1138
16th Mar 2008, 21:35
I met Sebastian Bordais in Holland [Champ Car race @ Assen] last year. Looks younger than his 29 years. Drives like a real Pro.

I would like to see him in a Mclaren. He was untouchable in Champ Car racing for 4 years.

frostbite
16th Mar 2008, 21:52
I like DC but, from what I saw of the incident I would award him at least 60% of the blame.

merlinxx
16th Mar 2008, 22:16
Re Merlin aka 'Arthur's Little Helper' the 'Welsh Wizard' nothing to do with Swearingen, hate those bloody airplanes after a dead head ride from KBWI to KHGR to see a Lady. Through a snow storm, nil vis, KHGR clamped, held for 45 mins & returned to KBWI to get a van to Winchester KOKV.

ChristiaanJ
16th Mar 2008, 22:20
Somehow the instant impression I got from the TV coverage was that of Massa bumping Coulthard out of the way and off the track.

But unless you were there, even a dozen replays won't really tell you who did what to whom. Anyway, neither made it to the end, or into the points.

ChristiaanJ
16th Mar 2008, 23:06
Re Merlin aka 'Arthur's Little Helper' the 'Welsh Wizard' nothing to do with Swearingen, hate those bloody airplanes after a dead head ride from KBWI to KHGR to see a Lady. Through a snow storm, nil vis, KHGR clamped, held for 45 mins & returned to KBWI to get a van to Winchester KOKV.And that Lady in Hagerstown had presumably been picked up by somebody else....?

I was thinking of another Merlin of Spitfire and Lancaster fame, when they still wrote "Mark" numbers in Latin..... Hence my question.....

CJ

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 02:53
Frostbite

Rules are clear, Massa was not far enough past DC (barely half way), DC had the line and position, Massa should have yielded. He didn't have a hope of making that move stick and he should know by now that DC will not move out of the way to let someone past unless they are actually past them.

Massa's fault

G-CPTN
17th Mar 2008, 03:03
I was surprised to see that DC's left front wheel detached, even though there was no direct impact at that corner. Likewise, Glock's front wheel also detached 'merely' through running over a change in profile in the track (which launched him skywards) rather than any imp)act with a barrier:- http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoHighlights.aspx - Glock accident
(followed by Massa hits Coulthard)

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 03:11
The suspension is strong, but only in the direction it is supposed to move. When you get launched into the air, followed by a thump sideways, then the suspension snaps as it isn't supposed to move in that direction at anything like high speed.

And I thought that "bump" which launched Glock at Albert Park was supposed to have been smoothed out after Schumacher and JPM's incidents there in 06. An unnecessary hazard, it should be flat there like they promised they would do almost 2 years ago.

sirwa69
17th Mar 2008, 05:01
And I thought the saddest moment was seeing Seb Bourdais' Toro Rosso going up in smoke, while he was fourth (!), two laps from the end in his first F1 race....

And the engine in the back of Seb's car was a .................... Ferrari :yuk:

So thats 3 Ferrari engines which went up in smoke!!

sirwa69
17th Mar 2008, 05:08
Anyone want to start a book on how many races Stefano Domenicali will be in charge at Ferrari before they bring back Jean :}

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 08:38
Sirwa, don't forget Sutil going out with "hydraulic issues" and Vettel stalling at the start (which he claims was not his fault). That could mean FIVE out of 6 Ferrari engines had issues, although we can't be sure of Vettel and Fisichella as they were taken out in the turn 1 crash.

G-CPTN
17th Mar 2008, 12:28
Aren't engines 'frozen' - ie no further development allowed, 19,000rpm limit - so reliability shouldn't change from previous season(s). It certainly seemed that Ferrari motors were suspect at Melbourne, but it seemed to be 'fuel supply' rather than the core engine (although weak mixtures can burn pistons and score cylinders).
I wondered why Raikkonen didn't pit for fuel under the safety car, but Kovalainen seemed to lose so many places when he did (because the field was bunched into one group) that maybe it was the right decision?
Drivers' comments on Melbourne:- http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&id=42005

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 13:02
They are allowed to improve things like reliability, but not develop the engine in a way which increases power and the standard ECU limits things even further.

As far as yesterday goes, the 3 definite engine failures were that, engine failurse and nothing to do with fuel, Vettel had a "hydraullic problem" (which encompasses a heck of a lot around the engine area so could have been anything) and the other two Ferrari engines were taken out of the race in the first turn melee so we have no idea how they would hae gotten on. The next race in the heat and humidity of Malaysia, followed by Bahrain's heat, will tell us a bit more but some are already questiong the Ferrari engine in hot conditions.

frostbite
17th Mar 2008, 14:04
"Rules are clear, Massa was not far enough past DC (barely half way)"


My mistake then, hellsbrink. I thought Massa's front wheel was just about level with DC.

Mind you, I would be much more concerned about
""Microsoft MES has been selected as the official ECU supplier to the FIA Formula One World Championship in 2008, 2009 and 2010."

Blue screen of death, anyone?

G-CPTN
17th Mar 2008, 14:26
They are allowed to improve things like reliability, but not develop the engine in a way which increases powerThe next race in the heat and humidity of Malaysia, followed by Bahrain's heat, will tell us a bit more but some are already questiong the Ferrari engine in hot conditions.So what's changed since last year?
I think we should be told.

Capt.Grumpy
17th Mar 2008, 14:42
Yep, those Ferrari engines are heaps of shit. Not like the good British engine powering the Mclarens. :rolleyes:

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 15:11
G-CPTN

Last year you could see them pulling out from behind a car to get into "clean air" and one reason for that is being marginal on the cooling side. The same could apply this year, with the engines running a tad hot due to the tight bodywork and as small a radiator as possible, so when you get into the higher temperatures like in Melbourne things run hotter than they really want.

Also, remember that in Australia last year Kimi ran the engine so hard he caused a small crack which allowed water to leak slowly, resulting in them running the car with fewer revs and less power in Malaysia. Since he and Massa were both pushing like hell to catch up, and Bourdais pushing hard to keep Alonso/Heikki behind, then that could have caused the engines to go as well.

G-CPTN
17th Mar 2008, 16:27
Microsoft, together with McLaren Electronic Systems, will be the official supplier of engine control units (ECUs) in Formula One World Championship for three racing seasons beginning with
2008. While the winning bid was announced as far back as July 5 2006, after a World Motorsport Council meeting, Microsoft, MES and the Fédèration Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) only announced the finalization of the contracts today.
"With the best interests of motorsport at heart, we have introduced new regulations that will help cut costs while also retaining each team’s ability to compete hard and sustain safety levels," said Max Mosley, president of the FIA. "The tender process gave us an opportunity to view proposals from different suppliers. We selected what we consider is the most efficient and cost-effective solution for providing ECUs to the Formula One community. We will follow this project closely and look forward to seeing the results in 2008."
"In all industries, Microsoft’s aim is to provide people with the right technology and the right tools to enable them to succeed in their business, while also keeping costs to a minimum," said Manuel Simas, director of worldwide automotive industry at Microsoft. "This is exactly what we are offering to all of the Formula One teams. We are very excited to be involved in this development with MES, of what we believe will be a robust, scalable and easy-to-use system. We are looking forward to working with MES and the FIA on this project over the coming years."
The ECU systems will be jointly developed by MES and Microsoft and all the competing Formula One teams will install them on their vehicles. The ECUs are designed to monitor all the aspects of the vehicle’s power train from in excess of 100 sensors on each car, generating 100 KB to 500 KB of data per second or more than 1 GB of information per race.
(From:- http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-to-Race-in-Formula-One-42086.shtml )

Tigs2
17th Mar 2008, 16:42
So that will explain it all. Will we now be faced with cars pulling over and having to reboot the ECU because it says 'Microsoft has encountered an unexpected error, please shut down the computer and try again, would you like to send an error report'

Should be real fun when that gets going.

Capt.KAOS
17th Mar 2008, 16:51
Overtaking is always the responsability of the overtaking party, even when lapping another car. In my days the general rule was if the front wheels are half way the opponent's car than the corner is his and can proceed the corner anything behind that he/she should back off.


Fia Int.Sporting code isn't exactly clear:
a) During a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
b) If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full use
of his rear-view mirror the fl ag marshal(s) will give a warning by
waving the blue fl ag to indicate that another competitor wants to
overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue fl ag may be
penalised by the Sporting Stewards.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of
the offender from the race.
c) Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits
of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.
d) Any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited.
The persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fanshaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue fl ag will be waved.
e) The penalty infl icted for ignoring the blue fl ag will also be applied
to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be more
severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging from
a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The same penalty shall be
applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the
other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking.
f) The repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack
of control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the
exclusion of the drivers concerned.
g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.

G-CPTN
17th Mar 2008, 16:59
as soon as it is caught up on a straight by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
Really? Does this apply for all 'catching-up' vehicles (or only lapping cars?)?
I cannot see much 'pulling over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other side' going on in the cut-and-thrust of today's sport.

Tony Hirst
17th Mar 2008, 17:00
So that will explain it all. Will we now be faced with cars pulling over and having to reboot the ECU because it says 'Microsoft has encountered an unexpected error, please shut down the computer and try again, would you like to send an error report'That and the line of code tucked away in there:

if(car->name=="ferrari" && car->position <= 5) {
car->engine->playRuleBritannia();
}

hellsbrink
17th Mar 2008, 17:57
That be more towards the sort of thing a certain German driver used to do, not in a case like Massa/DC, Capt.KAOS.

Capt.KAOS
17th Mar 2008, 18:11
Really? Does this apply for all 'catching-up' vehicles (or only lapping cars?)?
I cannot see much 'pulling over to one side in order to allow for passing on the other side' going on in the cut-and-thrust of today's sport.I believe this means that swerving/blocking is prohibited, especially during the start. Generally changing direction one time is accepted but not all the time. That be more towards the sort of thing a certain German driver used to do, not in a case like Massa/DC, Capt.KAOS.This is the rule the stewards used when there was a collision, therefore that's why the drivers behave(d) accordingly. Besides, usually they waited with sanctions until the victim/team manager protested afterwards. That said, it's a whole different world nowadays.

Sailor Vee
17th Mar 2008, 19:58
Anyone taking bets on Torro Rosso staying ahead of Ferrari in the constructor's championship?

Blues&twos
17th Mar 2008, 22:56
So that will explain it all. Will we now be faced with cars pulling over and having to reboot the ECU because it says 'Microsoft has encountered an unexpected error, please shut down the computer and try again, would you like to send an error report'


Or the alternative, a small animated paperclip appearing on the screen saying

"You appear to be attempting to overtake David Coulthard. Would you like some help?"

ChristiaanJ
17th Mar 2008, 23:35
Anyone taking bets on Toro Rosso staying ahead of Ferrari in the constructor's championship?

Maybe... Ferrari's last-year engine rejects may turn out to be better than the current batch in the end.

frostbite
17th Mar 2008, 23:38
Nice one, B&T!

Buster Hyman
18th Mar 2008, 01:08
I still root for Coulthard
Good for you! Say it loud & say it proud!

I was lucky enough to go to Jackie Stewarts book launch here in MEL & he was asked about the night race. He said the night (bikes) race in the Gulf was fantastic and Corser being an Aussie was terrific...but...what they have failed to do is test night racing on a wet track. There's every chance the night Grand Prix could be in the wet here and, as he said they have done sweet FA about testing the visibility in the spray or even how the many beads of water on the visor will project prisims of the track lights in the eyes of the driver. He pretty much sold me on the reasons NOT to have one in MEL. Better to have one in the desert I guess.

Fascinating speaker. Referred to Bernie as the "Wee little man".

spekesoftly
18th Mar 2008, 09:26
Referred to Bernie as the "Wee little man".

Much as I've always admired JYS, that's a bit 'kettle calling pot blacK' !

Dan D'air
18th Mar 2008, 12:06
Besides, I think most people go to the AGP to watch the supporting races rather than F1

Indeed. I find that being pi$$ed on the beach in Malaga is much more fun than watching a GP.

hellsbrink
20th Mar 2008, 07:27
BBC to broadcast F1 in the UK from next season. That means no more ad breaks in the race for UK viewers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7306123.stm

5150
20th Mar 2008, 08:36
This is great news. . . I've never liked ITV's coverage.

Hopefully the Beeb will leave the bulk of the sycophantic pit lane and race commentary staff to work on BTCC or A1GP where no one will notice them. . .

Widger
20th Mar 2008, 10:13
BBC Hooooorahhhh!

How many times have we come back from a commercial break, to see cars off, race order changed etc. No other sport on UK TV suffers such interuptions.

Tony Hirst
20th Mar 2008, 10:29
To be fair, I thought that ITV's coverage was a breath of fresh air compared to the BBC's dreary presentation. There were issues early on but significant race events happening during ad breaks are, by my perception, very few and far between. I think ITV did a great job. It is probably time to shift again before they get stale themselves, I'm sure the BBC are up for it.

aviate1138
20th Mar 2008, 10:40
The best move ITV made was to get rid of Jim Rosenthal. He was utterly hopeless and ruined F-1 viewing for me. Steve Ryder - a breath of fresh air!

Will the BBC offer Martin Brundle a key role? I do hope so as he knows nearly everyone who matters in F-1 and he is obviously respected and is up to speed during the race, correcting James Allen when he makes stupid statements. Dear Murray Walker should be 20 years younger!


No more Ad breaks from 2009!

BBC is made for F-1, Golf and Cricket :) At least we will get 2 out of 3 soon.

ZH875
20th Mar 2008, 10:44
"F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone said he was "delighted","

I bet he was, as the BBC gave him more money than ITV.

aviate1138
20th Mar 2008, 11:02
Jackie Stewart is saying someone will die in an F-1 race soon. When was the last time?

How much more protection are these well paid and highly protected F-1 drivers going to get???

Why should Lewis Hamilton be vilified for not wanting to be part of the Old Lags Drivers Union?

I don't want to see anyone die in F-1 but you can't see the drivers at all now! When you watch the Historic F-1 cars race you can see the drivers change gear and they are visible down to their waistline in some of the cars! TV viewers see much more than the enthusiasts who pay large sums of money to see what is sadly just a large Scalextric race!

Maybe the drivers section can be transparent? Safe but seen!

barry lloyd
20th Mar 2008, 13:23
Jackie Stewart - and I've been in his company a couple of times - does not seem to be the happiest of people.
Perhaps he misses the adulation and glory of those days, for he was a good racing driver, but bitterness seems to be creeping into his demeanour, as evidenced by his comments about Lewis Hamilton and F1 safety. (why else make them public?).

Let's just hope the BBC don't have him doing the commentaries!

windriver
20th Mar 2008, 13:47
Let's just hope the BBC don't have him (Stewart) doing the commentaries! - BBC... I wait with trepidation, just as likely to be dumbed down to F1 on Ice with Graham Norton doing the commetary.

barry lloyd
20th Mar 2008, 14:07
Graham Norton doing the commentary.

Aaaaaaaargh - or has someone else used that already? :)

p.s. There may be people from the BBC reading this - please don't give them any ideas!

spekesoftly
20th Mar 2008, 15:29
Jackie Stewart is saying someone will die in an F-1 race soon. When was the last time? ....... The Grand Prix Drivers' Association was reformed after the deaths of Senna and Ratzenberger in 1994. There had previously been no F1 fatalities since 1982. An impressive safety record compared to the 60s and 70s, when drivers were killed almost every year, but no justification for complacency.

Jesters
20th Mar 2008, 15:38
And hopefully the Beeb will bring back Fleetwood Mac, something that has def been lacking from the ITV broadcast!

windriver
20th Mar 2008, 15:57
And hopefully the Beeb will bring back Fleetwood Mac, something that has def been lacking from the ITV broadcast!


All together now... "Derrrrrr der der der derr derr der der der derrrrrrrrrrrrr"

frostbite
20th Mar 2008, 16:35
Hope they get a pair of commentators as knowledgeable and entertaining as the pair who cover MotoGP.

hellsbrink
20th Mar 2008, 16:38
And hopefully the Beeb will bring back Fleetwood Mac, something that has def been lacking from the ITV broadcast!


Just for you, Jesters. (3min 04s into track)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csatmi34YEk

G-CPTN
20th Mar 2008, 17:24
Jackie Stewart - and I've been in his company a couple of times - does not seem to be the happiest of people. I don't think that is new. I believe that Jackie always was 'dour' . . .

hollingworthp
20th Mar 2008, 17:53
PLEASE BBC - Leave that reedy voiced [email protected] James Allen behind so I don't have to eat my own hands any more listening to his inane cockery.

G-CPTN
21st Mar 2008, 03:53
Sutil has had an 'engine' event (looked like a right bank failure - lots of smoke). Ferrari engine of course . . .
Coulthard ran over a kerb and lost both front wheels . . .
Raikonnen 'stopped on circuit' - possible engine malfunction?


Live video @ http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoLive.aspx
Live audio @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/sportsextra/

G-CPTN
21st Mar 2008, 04:12
Webber has major (Renault) engine blow - so busy time for Red Bull mechanics . . .
Must say I think that Honda's green livery looks like shyte.

Torro Rosso team up for sale . . .

G-CPTN
21st Mar 2008, 04:28
Jean Todt is in the Ferrari garage (though not 'in uniform' . . . ).
Rumour is that the 'new' supremo has been sent on gardening leave.

Next free practice session starts at 06.00 UTC - see above for video and audio links.

hellsbrink
21st Mar 2008, 07:55
Raikonnen 'stopped on circuit' - possible engine malfunction?


lack of fuel

hollingworthp
21st Mar 2008, 07:59
I just get looping audio on sportsextra online saying "due to rights restrictions, we are unable to bring you this programme" anyone else get this?

hellsbrink
21st Mar 2008, 08:15
For some reason it thinks you are in a furrin place, Hollingworth. Are you using a proxy of some kind?


Edit:- Strangely enough, I can hear the 5Live broadcast online despite it supposed to be available in the UK only :\

hollingworthp
21st Mar 2008, 08:59
Nope - unless Oxford has declared some kind of independence - no proxy either. At least I was able to watch the ITV stream.

hellsbrink
21st Mar 2008, 09:10
Methinks BBC maybe burgered up, as I should not have been able to listen to the broadcast online....

Miraculix
21st Mar 2008, 16:38
bla bla bla bla horray for Hamilton, bla bla bla bla bla bla Brittish cars the best, bla bla bla bla bla Mclarren's the ultimate, bla bla bla bla Ferrari blows up, bla bla bla bla Ferrari's crap.............

This from people who lives on an island that cant find out, how to mix hot and cold water for washing your hands, you either burn your hands under the hot water in one side of the bassin, or freeze them in the other side. The rest of europe has been mixing hot and cold water for more than 30 years, but I guess it has'nt been invented by brilliant english engeniers yet ;-)

Have your moment now, the rest of us know, that in the end, the little red car driven by that icecold Finn will win.

Hardhat donned ;)

Mallan
21st Mar 2008, 16:45
"but I guess it has'nt been invented by brilliant english engeniers yet"


I'm lead to believe that in England we have Engineers

ChristiaanJ
21st Mar 2008, 16:59
I'm lead to believe that in England we have EngineersI thought in England "engineers" were the people who drive the trains?

ORAC
21st Mar 2008, 17:01
Forecast for qualifying, is 90% probability of rain; and we are talking tropical downpour, not a bit damp. Add that to no traction control and it could get interesting. Forecast is 75% probability of rain for the race as well.....

Miraculix
21st Mar 2008, 17:23
Response been to the fact I can't spell, not what I was actually saying, so I guess you concur :D

;)

ORAC
21st Mar 2008, 17:33
Well LH has lead the field again in first practice, so you can at least continue to wait in anticipation.

ChristiaanJ
21st Mar 2008, 17:34
Miraculix,
Now that I think about it, you're right..... the mixer tap somehow never crossed the Channel.
Even showers usually have two taps... the mixing being done downstream.
CJ

BombayDuck
21st Mar 2008, 17:47
I'm lead to believe that in England we have Engineers

I was led to believe that in England you were taught English, but my beliefs may have been misguided :E

Wodrick
21st Mar 2008, 18:44
While I am delighted that the coverage returns this quote causes me concern: Dominic Coles, the BBC's director of sports right, told the Times: "It will be the Martini approach to Grands Prix. You can watch it any time, any place, anywhere." Coles has also said that the success of BBC's revamped Top Gear programme will be a major influence on the tone of their F1 coverage in 2009. "When Lewis Hamilton did a test lap on Top Gear it got more viewers than the Brazilian Grand Prix," he explained. "Bernie (Ecclestone) was very impressed with the Top Gear proposition and there will be cross-fertilisation between the show and the races."

Blues&twos
21st Mar 2008, 20:00
"Bernie (Ecclestone) was very impressed with the Top Gear proposition and there will be cross-fertilisation between the show and the races."

Maybe they'll all be driving 2nd hand motorhomes for the British GP?

Ken Wells
21st Mar 2008, 21:16
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg224/kenwells_photo/Ferret.jpg

Alonso's still a FERRET

lowerlobe
22nd Mar 2008, 00:10
Alonso's still a FERRET
...and they say that the French are biased....:oh:

If or I guess when it rains in Sepang I just hope that LH is not the first one behind the safety car......

ORAC
22nd Mar 2008, 08:08
Qualifying:

1st: Massa
2nd: Raikonnen
3rd: Kovalainen
4th: Hamilton:
5th: Trulli:
6: Kubice

The Ferraris seem to be much faster, looks like they're running a light fuel load. McLarens on the second row. Big tick for Trulli getting the Toyota qualified in 5th place.

Dry session, no rain at all, started to fall 2 minutes after it finished. Be interesting to see what the conditions are for the race itself.

Miraculix
22nd Mar 2008, 08:18
I'm wondering if the McLarens should be penalised for unsportsmanlike conduct, hindering qualifying cars, by snailing along in the racingline saving fuel.

Papa Charlie
22nd Mar 2008, 08:58
Err - I think you will find the two red cars were in that pack as well, as were Kubica & Trulli. Massa particularly came down to a snail's pace once over the finish line.

Miraculix
22nd Mar 2008, 09:13
I thought I saw the pack out of the racingline (right side of track) except the two silver cars.

Funny how Trulli always qualifies good, only to hold back the ones behind him in the race, creating the famous Trulli-train. Exciting to see if the BMW's can pass him at the start, or if they have to toot along behind him untill the pitstops.

If it rains tomorrow, how many stops will there be and won't the fuel consumpsion be much higher comparred to a dry race?

ORAC
22nd Mar 2008, 09:33
If it rains tomorrow, how many stops will there be and won't the fuel consumpsion be much higher comparred to a dry race? If it rains, and without traction control, there'll be crashes and periods with the pace car out. So I'd expect lower overall fuel consumption with team strategy on when to stop/refuel being a predominant factor - along with luck...

Biggles1049
22nd Mar 2008, 09:40
Bring back Team Lotus - what a team , what a scheme !! & Norfolk Born and bred

Click here for larger image http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1037121/

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1037121M.jpg

MarcoFF
22nd Mar 2008, 09:48
Qualifying:

1st: Massa
2nd: Raikonnen
3rd: Kovalainen
4th: Hamilton:
5th: Trulli:

Very nice, Raikkonen and Kovalainen on top:ok:

Very heavy competion to the drivers, high humidity & temperature on Malesia right now.

Miraculix
22nd Mar 2008, 09:56
Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber (7th, Q3 - 1m 36.753s):"I'm very disappointed about the outcome of Q3. The first corners of my last lap went smoothly, but then there were several cars driving very slowly on their in-laps. Apparently they had no information that the qualifying was still going on. Before turn four I lost a lot of time because both McLarens were cruising on the racing line. I think this has cost me about two tenths of a second, which would have meant being third instead of seventh. I just couldn't drive on the line I wanted and, even more importantly, could not brake were I wanted. However, I was very happy with my car in qualifying."

ZFT
22nd Mar 2008, 10:45
Very heavy competion to the drivers, high humidity & temperature on Malesia right now


No it isn’t. This was the coolest day I’ve ever experience at a KL GP.

GobonaStick
22nd Mar 2008, 13:07
Both McLarens penalised five grid places. :eek:

hellsbrink
22nd Mar 2008, 13:20
revised grid

1. Massa Ferrari
2. Raikkonen Ferrari
3. Trulli Toyota
4. Kubica BMW Sauber
5. Heidfeld BMW Sauber
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault
7. Alonso Renault
8. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes *
9. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes *
10. Glock Toyota
11. Button Honda
12. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault
13. Piquet Renault
14. Barrichello Honda
15. Vettel Toro Rosso-Ferrari
16. Rosberg Williams-Toyota
17. Fisichella Force India-Ferrari
18. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari
19. Sato Super Aguri-Honda
20. Sutil Force India-Ferrari
21. Davidson Super Aguri-Honda
22. Nakajima Williams-Toyota **

ZH875
22nd Mar 2008, 13:42
Both McLarens penalised five grid places. :eek:


And there was I thinking that this was the start of the 2008 season, and not a continuance of the 2007 season.

Perhaps McLaren should pull out of Bernie Weedlestones GP circus, and start a rival championship, I am sure most of the other teams would follow suit, leaving Ferrero to win every race with a 1-2 and the Drivers and Constructors titles without any input form the gruesome twosome.

Clarence Oveur
22nd Mar 2008, 14:43
Perhaps McLaren should pull out of Bernie Weedlestones GP circus........Perhaps McLaren should just start playing by the the rules.

lowerlobe
22nd Mar 2008, 15:05
And there was I thinking that this was the start of the 2008 season, and not a continuance of the 2007 season.

....Yep,just like last season and LH has to apologise again for impeding another car during qualifying but this time he is being penalised.

I wonder if he will be using the same line from last year "I couldn't see anything because my mirrors were....."

BombayDuck
22nd Mar 2008, 15:51
Perhaps McLaren should pull out of Bernie Weedlestones GP circus, and start a rival championship, I am sure most of the other teams would follow suit, leaving Ferrero to win every race with a 1-2 and the Drivers and Constructors titles without any input form the gruesome twosome.

If you - and by this I mean McLaren fans - would quit crying wolf at every opportunity you get, the rest of us just might start believing the few times you accuse the FIA or whoever of conspiracy :rolleyes:

frostbite
22nd Mar 2008, 16:42
Returning to the forthcoming BBC coverage.....

There's a rumour that they are lining up Richard Hammond for the commentary team. Oh, deep joy.

Perhaps also Anne Robinson, or even Jonathan Wuss? "Waikkonen has just waced past Wubens".

Miraculix
22nd Mar 2008, 17:45
The Trulli-train will be a long one tomorrow!

Go little red cars :ok:

hellsbrink
22nd Mar 2008, 19:20
Perhaps McLaren should pull out of Bernie Weedlestones GP circus, and start a rival championship, I am sure most of the other teams would follow suit

ZH875, they did try that. It failed miserably. For one thing, where would they get the tracks to race on as the FIA would remove the approval from anyone who let them race. Point 2, who's going to pay for all the organisation, etc? Point 3, put all these egos called team bosses into a room and the only thing they'll agree on is to disagree, there would never be any consensus on rules/money/etc at all. Oh, and you just have to look at what happened with open wheel racing in the US to see what a breakaway series would lead to.

Now, look at the incident again. They were on the racing line for no reason, why weren't the on the inside of the track like the Beemer was? They, probably without any intent, got in the way. You get penalised for that, no exceptions. If you can't handle things like that then I suggest you go and watch tennis.

glad rag
22nd Mar 2008, 19:27
Actually was going to post a stinging reply but can't be arsed-If you can't see the danger of cars weaving across the track to avoid the "rules on the racing line" then I suggest you take a step back to the base line.

:ouch:

hellsbrink
22nd Mar 2008, 19:53
If that was aimed at me, glad rag, then here's a reason for them being penalised.


Both McLaren drivers knew that there were others still doing a fast lap, so they should not have been on that side of the track in the first case, and certainly not at that speed. They had no reason to be there, and since they knew others were still on a fast one they should have ensured they were out of the way, like the Bee-emm was. They could have been in the middle of the track, Sepang is more than wide enough, and that would have left plenty space for Quick Nick to get through without any issues. But no, they had to sit on the line and force him (and alonso) to go around them. If it had happened to Lewis or Heikki, then you know the same screaming would have arisen leading to whoever was in the way being penalised. Oh, and if you haven't seen any drivers "weaving across the track" to get out of the way of a faster car during quali, then I guess you ain't seen many sessions (think of Hamilton in Brazil last year for starters). The onus is on the slower vehicle to get off the line and out of the way to let the faster car past without hindering him in any way. Always has been and always will be. The penalty is justified.

glad rag
22nd Mar 2008, 20:21
The onus is on the slower vehicle to get off the line and out of the way to let the faster car past without hindering him in any way. Always has been and always will be

I'm sorry but "the onus" is only true when it does not present a significant hazard to others, there is (was thanks berni! ) a link on U tube showing this very incident that CLEARLY shows the dangers that would have arisen if cars had been weaving across the tracks in front of the much faster BMW.

Yes in a perfect world the drivers should have a clear run at a clear racing line but F1 just now is VERY far from being "perfect" in any sense.

Perhaps a better take would be ALL of US who have enjoyed F1 over the years really HURT those who would (have) screwed up the pinnacle of motorsport by boycotting it until the sponsors sit up and take note! (yes a snowballs chance I know) 2007 was a FARCE.

:ouch:

hellsbrink
22nd Mar 2008, 21:20
Where would the hazard hae been if they moved to the inside of the track?

Answer? There wouldn't have been one. I saw the same incident as you did, and there is enough room at Sepang for them to have been off the line in the first case. At any other track you clearly see cars swerving across the track to get out of the way, so there is no excuse for them being there.

And what the hell does 07 have to do with this? Or are you just using this foul up by McLaren to have a rant at those running F1?

(PS. That farce was caused by one team who happily accepted and used confidential information stolen from a competitor. You want to blame someone for 07, blame McLaren)

glad rag
22nd Mar 2008, 21:49
Sir, you wear your colours well!! :ugh:

PLovett
22nd Mar 2008, 23:33
For those who cannot understand the dangers of a car going slow on the racing line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4HfSPCVX9E

Clarence Oveur
22nd Mar 2008, 23:43
PLovett, you fail to understand that anything that goes against McLaren is a conspiracy perpetrated by the FIA and Ferrari. McLaren is simply a victim.

innuendo
23rd Mar 2008, 03:15
James Allen and Martin Brundle were the commentators on the broadcast I watched. One of them made a comment to the effect that there should perhaps be some minimum speed that must be maintained while on track during qualification. Not a bad suggestion, obviously it does not have to be flat out, perhaps within some percentage of their previous laps unless there is a good technical reason otherwise, but not cruising around in the way of others trying to get in their best time. The McLaren penalties should be a wake up call.

hellsbrink
23rd Mar 2008, 05:05
Glad Rag, you definitely do need to go back to school. I certainly don't wear any "colours" when it comes to F1. Unlike those who see no fault in anything Ferrari or McLaren do.

lowerlobe
23rd Mar 2008, 06:44
Has anyone thought it might have been a payback for FA or a chance to have a go at him and the BMW got caught up in it as well.....

I find it strange that the other cars although travelling slowly as well were off the racing line but not HK and LH.....

The only solution here is for a timed shoot out for the top ten positions with each car starting in order of how they qualified in Q2.

That way they have only one car at a time on the circuit.To have cars doing 30 mph and others going flat out is a recipe for disaster.

Even so you would think drivers of this calibre on a slow down speed to conserve fuel would not keep to the racing line when others are at race speed.

hellsbrink
23rd Mar 2008, 06:50
They tried the "one car on track at a time" quali, remember, and it was a farce too.

The only way to try and stop this sort of incident is to have a minimum speed on the in-lap. They could even give the teams an extra lap worth of fuel to compensate, but making it a "one car, single lap" quali session will just turn people off the sport again.

Oh, of course they can do something else. Get rid of this "final quali session on race fuel" malebovinefaeces. Nobody will be saving fuel at any time if they don't have to carry race fuel and that means nobody will have a reason to go so slow.

hellsbrink
23rd Mar 2008, 10:04
Well, that's the annual Malaysian Grand Borefest over.

Roll on Bahrain

ORAC
23rd Mar 2008, 10:17
Two points come out of the race.

1. McLaren need to work on their wheel changing and how to cope with brake dust.

2. Massa needs to work out how to drive without traction control.......

G-CPTN
23rd Mar 2008, 11:44
I watched the ITV video version (on TV) whilst listening to the BBC radio commentary on Radio Five. Apart from avoiding the ad breaks, I 'enjoyed' the entire post-race winning-drivers' press conference, something that ITV curtailed after Kimmie's contribution, so viewers heard none of Kubica's or Kovailainen's words (and the ITV version of the PC wasn't live either, starting a couple of minutes after - and ending before the Beeb broadcast version).
Beeb commentary available (later) as podcast here:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/formulaone.shtml

barry lloyd
23rd Mar 2008, 11:57
something that ITV curtailed after Kimmie's contribution, so viewers heard none of Kubica's or Kovailainen's words (and the ITV version of the PC wasn't live either, starting a couple of minutes after - and ending before the Beeb broadcast version).


Yes, good old ITV, juggling with the need to slot in the adverts, make sure they don't over-run into the kid's programmes, and ensuring they have a quick word with LH to discover that his water supply wasn't working...:sad:
And what happened to the 'pit walk' today?

By the way - anyone know if Martin Brundle still manages DC? Doesn't seem to say as much about him these days, and I did hear that DC and he had parted company.

Ken Wells
23rd Mar 2008, 18:10
...and they say that the French are biased....

Funnily ehough I took the photo at Cannes Airport last year!

sycamore
23rd Mar 2008, 22:48
It is quite straightforward that in Q3 EVERYONE MUST RUN AT RACE/QUAL SPEED UNTIL THEY CROSS THE LINE UNDER THE ` Finish(not Finnish)/chequered flag,at the end of the time,they can then slow down and coast back to the pits.You cannot slow down if you have crossed the line before the flag...Every driver knows that, every team manager knows that,and should have enough fuel to run that way.Works in MotoGP; Alternatively,you go for a 3 lap shoot-out, out lap,qual lap,in-lap as in Superbike, with 2 cars on circuit.

hellsbrink
24th Mar 2008, 00:44
Well, they are looking to change things

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/23032008/58/f1-2008-sepang-events-prompt-re-think.html

lowerlobe
24th Mar 2008, 11:33
Alternatively,you go for a 3 lap shoot-out, out lap,qual lap,in-lap as in Superbike, with 2 cars on circuit.
Now that sounds like a good idea....Imagine the mess in Monaco if you maintained the current system.
ensuring they have a quick word with LH to discover that his water supply wasn't working.
I was wondering what the excuse was going to be....

hellsbrink.....What was boring about the Malaysian race and what will make the Bahrain race any better?????

The one thing they have to change is the reliance of modern F1 cars on aerodynamics.

If they can do that then we might see some more overtaking and racing.

Duckbutt
24th Mar 2008, 12:22
I was wondering what the excuse was going to be....

Not aware that he claimed it affected the result, 'Loby, think he he only said it made him feel a bit rough at the end.

How come you have this obsession with denigrating LH at every opportunity (or even when there isn't an opportunity)? Did one of his ancesters rape your great great grandmother or something?

hellsbrink
24th Mar 2008, 13:15
Lowerlobe

I don't think there has ever been a really good race at Sepang. You have a track that wide, yet only one line so it's rare to get any real action. True, the aero on the cars is an isue (as I have said for quite a few years) but the track must take some of the blame. A long straight into hairpin into long straight just don't work as the chances of being able to get up the inside of someone for the hairpin are minimal. So the issue is a combination of both cars and track, imo, and I said that from the very first race there. And I doubt Bahrain will be much better. Come to think about it, Spain won't be much better either, especially after they put that silly chicane in near the end of the lap.

G-CPTN
24th Mar 2008, 13:24
Can the difference in fuel burn between a 'normal' (not hot) recovery lap and the ridiculous almost walking-pace return lap be so significant?
Maybe the minimum speed should be safety-car speed, otherwise surely the marshals should 'flag' the sectors where the slow-moving obstructions are? This would, in turn prevent those attempting to achieve qualifying times (as they have to slow down:- # A single yellow indicates danger ahead, such as debris from a crash. Drivers must slow down as they pass; no overtaking is permitted, unless it is unavoidable such as a driver retiring in the section, or a driver is lapped.
# Two waved yellows at the same post indicates great danger ahead. Drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop; no overtaking is permitted unless a driver is lapped.

hellsbrink
24th Mar 2008, 13:38
It was on Saturday, G-CPTN, BMW were reporting a speed differential of up to 200kmh.

And won't hanging out a yellow flag in those circumstances completely ruin someone's hot lap? Naah, the only answer is to change the rules so, unless you have a problem with the car, you must be within 110% of your fast lap time. That way these mobile chicanes will not be a problem again.

Jay.Walker.DUS
24th Mar 2008, 14:35
It's only cheating, or bending the rules if you prefer that expression, if you get caught.

McLaren - brillant at engineering but utterly crap at bending rules.

Wonders how long it will take before Mercedes pulls the rug from under Ron Dennis and puts Norbert Haug in charge of the F1 team. This latest fcuk-up is one too many for a team with a chance of taking the championship. They might not have won the Malaysian GP, but without the 5-place penalty they should have been able to score more points that they actually did.

Happy to see the Ferrari's carry the speed to the end of the race, well at least one of them did. Suspect Ferrari will hose plenty of water on Fiorano and have Massa practice non-traction control driving for the next 2 weeks.

Roll on Bahrain, but if history is anything to go by it'll be a boring race. Not much chance of rain in the sandy place

jammydonut
24th Mar 2008, 14:57
Part of Bernie's deal with the BBC is that Tamara Ecclestone will lead the commentary team:D

Miraculix
24th Mar 2008, 16:13
Felipe Massa (Ferrari)
"I don't know what happened - I just lost the car. There was strange behaviour on the rear, but I don't know what caused it."


Someone please tell him, tracktion control is not installed any more. There was not a strange behavior in the rear and the cause is an inability to dose the throttle correctly. :ugh:



Lewis Hamilton, McLaren (5th):
"I got a really good start and was pretty happy as we jumped five positions from ninth to fifth. I was pushing Mark for a very long time, but being behind someone, no matter how quick you are, it is really difficult to get past. We were in a good position for a shot at third place at least, but then I had the problem in my first pit stop which lost me a lot of time.

"So I did the best job I could. However we take away the fact that the car ran very reliably in these extreme conditions, and I was able to push Jarno right until the last second. I have to say that both Mark and Jarno drove really well today, and it was great to fight them out on track today."

We jumped five places from ninth to fith :confused: :confused: :confused:

Bravo73
24th Mar 2008, 18:14
We jumped five places from ninth to fith :confused: :confused: :confused:

Ninth, eighth, seventh, sixth, fifth = 5 places! ;)

ChristiaanJ
24th Mar 2008, 18:29
Well, four places using the arithmetic from the place where I went to school (and no, not France).

Bravo73
24th Mar 2008, 18:39
Same for me. But you can see where the confusion could lie. Hence the ;)!

twb3
24th Mar 2008, 18:56
Lewis is a race driver, not an engineer, so he's better at driving than counting...as he should be.

I think the lack of TC and the common ECU is going to see some reordering of the top-tier drivers, and not sure Massa will be among them when that is sorted out.

Capt.KAOS
24th Mar 2008, 19:08
Someone please tell him, tracktion control is not installed any more. There was not a strange behavior in the rear and the cause is an inability to dose the throttle correctly. :ugh: How would you know? Did you drive the car? I'm sure that he made thousands of testing miles w/o traction control. Besides a drivers error it can be many things such as a broken drive shaft, faulty gear box, oil on the rear tires, something wrong with the aerodynamics and plenty more. Too many armchair racing drivers here... :rolleyes:

G-CPTN
24th Mar 2008, 19:14
Methinks the Finns will cope with the lack of traction control. I don't suppose those from Southern Europe have much experience of driving on slippery surfaces.
I've never driven anything with the engine power of a Formula 1 car, but I used to practice driving a 3.3 litre engined rear-wheel-drive car around a skid pan created from old engine-oil poured onto concrete (RAF Tempsford) and hosed constantly with water - it teaches an appreciation of an excess of torque over adhesion.

yakker
24th Mar 2008, 20:31
Massa," On lap 31, I clipped the kerb on the exit to turn 6 and hit it quite hard
and then I lost the rear end going into the next corner. we have to check to see if the impact with the kerb damaged the car"

In other words driver error.

Mercedes cannot pull the rug from under Ron, he owns McLaren. Why are you blaming the team for the drivers school boy error on their slow down lap? Bloody hell its not hard to keep off the racing line when cruising in.

Capt.KAOS
24th Mar 2008, 20:35
If I remember well Massa went off under braking? Besides he had pole, so he seems to cope with the new conditions.

In other words driver error.Not really if you read your own message. Cars are driving over the kerbs constantly. Not sure if hitting the kerb was Massa's mistake, maybe. To me something went wrong in the rear and it had nothing to to with the traction control.

hellsbrink
24th Mar 2008, 21:35
According to this

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66073

Massa ran wide THEN clipped the kerb, which screwed up the airflow so he lost downforce and hence lost the rear end. We know what happened after he lost the rear.

In other words, driver error

lowerlobe
24th Mar 2008, 22:07
As someone else said there are a lot of armchair experts here...

I'm not a ferrari fan but Massa is a racing driver as they all are and he was chasing his team mate as Kimi was before the pitstop.If you are pushing as fast as you can you will at some stage make a mistake.
If anyone here can mention a driver that has not made a mistake then let us know....

hellsbrink....As I said if the aero aids were minimised then we would see slipstreaming on those long straights and drivers trying to out brake each other.I was a fan of the 'old' Hockenheim circuit because of it's long sweeping sections and feel as though it has been weakened by it's new design.
Sepang too would be better if the cars could get close enough to each other and out brake each other...remember what real F1 racing used to be like before this TV spectator orientated advertising that 2 men have set up....

Ducksbutt.....No more than those who have a shot at FA....

It also makes me want to throw up listening to the almost constant deifying of LH by the UK media and ITV in particular...

Capt.Grumpy
24th Mar 2008, 23:45
As I said if the aero aids were minimised then we would see slipstreaming on those long straights and drivers trying to out brake each other.I was a fan of the 'old' Hockenheim circuit because of it's long sweeping sections and feel as though it has been weakened by it's new design.

The "old" Hockenheim, now that was a real circuit. Couldn't agree more lowy, about the aero aids. I go back to 1962 as a follower of FI and a spectator of the "Tasman Series" from about that time as well, NO aero aids at all then. Plenty of slipstreaming back then. :ok:

Jay.Walker.DUS
24th Mar 2008, 23:45
Yakker, if Mercedes were to tell Ron that he either clears the deck or they loose the engine, there's not much choice is there? Hardly as if competitive engines are a dime a dozen, and without a competivite engine McLaren would not be competing Ferrari but Torro Rosso ...

And when a team screws up, regardless of who's at fault, it's usually the coach/manager getting the boot - easier to replace.

Don't think I'm hoping for Ron to get booted, he doesn't deserve it in my book. But Mercedes might think otherwise, and they do have a rather successful team manager in Norbert Haug.

Capt.KAOS
25th Mar 2008, 00:02
When he clouted a kerb it stalled the car's aerodynamics and caused him to lose control of the rear at the following turn - pitching him off the track and into a gravel trap.Exactly what I mentioned in my earlier message. We were discussing Massa's error because of his inexperience with not having traction control, which is bollox. I only saw the clip when he went off and that IMO wasn't a drivers error, the way the rear snapped away typically is a sign of a technical problem. I haven't seen the way he took the corner before, so I can't judge about that.

G-CPTN
25th Mar 2008, 00:22
Indeed, the development of aerodynamic devices has altered the direction of the sport. In the early days it was just a question of getting the Cd down as low as possible by streamlining. Then there were fans that sucked and huge wings on stalks and now there are devices that I don't understand. It is the interaction with other cars that makes the current situation undesirable IMO. It's all very well being able to generate sufficient downforce to be able run upside down on the roof of a tunnel, but when hitting a kerb can destroy the effect or when bottoming-out can mean no 'adhesion' (was it Senna to whom that happened?) then things have gone too far.

lowerlobe
25th Mar 2008, 00:32
I do think that aero aids should be minimised but perhaps the cars are being made too fragile as well.

The Red Bull cars are in question at the moment because of this.

As far as the situation goes with McLaren it all depends on BMW.If Mercedes thinks that BMW is becoming a threat then they will put more pressure on RD.

hellsbrink
25th Mar 2008, 03:56
Well, LL, as I say, the aero is not the only issue at Sepang. You can hardly slipstream if the nature of the track is "straight bit, stand on the brakes, straight bit, stand on the brakes, straight bit". There's nowhere to build up the speed before the straight, same as you never get any slipstreaming from the start line.

It's the same as at the "new", neutered Fuji. The cars are effectively hitting the straight from a standing start so, with our new, rev limited, series, the cars cannot build up a speed differential to be able to get a tow no matter what the state of the aero is. (Ahhh, Fuji. That brings back some memories of REAL slipstreaming down that 1km straight. Pass someone too early and he could draft you and get you before turn 1. Not any more, with that silly little complex of corners at the end of the lap)

roamingwolf
25th Mar 2008, 04:32
hellsbrink
mate the straights you talk about are about 1km long and there are 2 of them.if the cars get close enough without all these stupid wings then they can slipstream.the track is great because it's wide and if the rules were changed the race might be worth watching instead of a procession.
or is it that you don't like waiting up for the race because you live in europe

I go along with lobey and lets get f1 back to where it should be with just one wing with one element at both ends of the car.we have a big improvement with the ecu so lets fix the rest and see some real driving

hellsbrink
25th Mar 2008, 07:43
roamingwolf

Have I ever said that there wasn't an issue with the aero? No. I'm saying there is an issue with the aero AND the track layout. After all, the MotoGP boys can struggle to pass on these straights so it isn't just the aero on the F1 cars.

Capt.Grumpy
25th Mar 2008, 07:58
Lets face it ,less aero grip and more mechanical grip is the way to go,just like the "old"days. :ok:

lowerlobe
25th Mar 2008, 10:19
hellsbrink......Seeing that F1 cars are faster than Moto GP bikes and would present a larger profile for slipstreaming how long of a straight do you think they should have?

I think you would find that without the negative impact of turbulent air a modern F1 car would do very well if the straight was one km long.If they are nose to tail then a one km straight would give a big chance for some clever and ballsy driving.

Can you name other tracks that have longer straights and how much longer they are.I can't remember many tracks that are as wide as Sepang but as I said earlier I would like to see a track like the 'old' Hockenheim track with sweeping long sections and with cars that are not affected so dramatically by aero disturbances.

hellsbrink
25th Mar 2008, 10:52
Longest straight is Fuji, followed by Catalunya. Sepang is under 1km.

And MotoGP does slipstream happily, you can even draft on a bicycle (watch that sort of thing and you'll see what I mean). You see that happening on other tracks where there is the possibility of a difference in corner exit speeds, and the top speed of the bikes v F1 is immaterial unless you are going to try and race MotoGP against F1. Argument is void.

Now look at the layout. Car1 enters tight hairpin 0.5s ahead of car2. Because they can only take one route through tight corner, there is only one line and speed to exit at. Therefore, car1 has an automatic lead no matter what car2 does. Because they are accelerating at the same rate, it's impossible for car2 to get close as he needs a higher exit speed to be able to catch up. Now, put a long sweeping bend in place of hairpin. With a different line, car2 can exit corner with said higher exit speed and is able to get into the draft and pass car1.

Can you see why I say the track design is also an issue now?

PLovett
25th Mar 2008, 11:24
Actually hellsbrink, most overtaking in F1 is at tight corners at the end of a long straight. The hairpin at Magny Cours (sp?), ditto at Montreal, Les Combes and La Source at Spa. The last is interesting because I never thought there was much of a straight before to get the speed until I watched Derek Bell's vides shot from a 956. He was getting to 4th gear between the bus stop and La Source.

In all places the overtaking car needs to be able to get alongside by the entrance to the corner, hold the other car to a slower line and out accelerate. F1 overtaking now requires much more than merely an outbraking into the corner given the micro differences between car performance.

The worst layout is where there is a series of slow corners with not much of a straight in between. Monaco springs immediately to mind. Any overtaking there appears to be muscle over skill.

ZH875
25th Mar 2008, 11:36
Why not make life easier, just have a half mile, 5 car wide oval circuit, where cars can go round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round for 500 laps or so.

On second thoughts.....

Miraculix
25th Mar 2008, 12:38
How would you know? Did you drive the car?

Yes, I was sitting in his lap, maybe it was the extra weight that caused it ;)

From Eurosport:
Massa said track-side that he did not know what had happened and the Scuderia's computer analysis also came up with nothing.

They can't find anything wrong with the car..... :O Æhhh, methink it's the heavy right foot of a Brasilian that caused it :E But I could be wrong :}

Capt.KAOS
25th Mar 2008, 12:45
One of the best corners to overtake was (and still is...) the Zandvoort Tarzan Corner (http://download.cpz.nl/movies/zandvoort1977.mpeg).

hellsbrink
25th Mar 2008, 13:05
PLovett

If you look at last year's races alone you will see that passing happens in far more places than in a hairpin at the end of the straight. Same with MotoGP, WTCC, etc. Gone are the days of being the "last of the late brakers". In fact, just look at Massa/Kubica in Japan last year, they sure weren't fighting around the turn at the end of the straight. Nobody passes at a hairpin at the end of a straight nowadays unless the guy in front makes a mistake.

Oh, Monaco has actually had more passes in recent years than Sepang. Says a lot, doesn't it.


(PS. Lowerlobe. Fastest top end speed for MotoGP bike, 800cc in race trim and not in testing, is 337kph at Shanghai last year. F1, Shanghai, fastest speed, 320kph. Which is faster, again? Bikes do a slower LAP as they can't go round the twisty bits as fast, but on the straight they'll take the cars)

Capt.KAOS
25th Mar 2008, 17:54
Most passings has been taken place in the pits and MotogGP is at least 100 times more exiting than F1. Speed is relevant, F1 racing was much more exiting 20-30 years ago, despite the slower laptimes. Even the sound was better :}

ZFT
25th Mar 2008, 22:46
Hellsbrink,

Oh, Monaco has actually had more passes in recent years than Sepang. Says a lot, doesn't it.


Is this just your belief or backed up with evidence?

twb3
25th Mar 2008, 22:52
"Why not make life easier, just have a half mile, 5 car wide oval circuit, where cars can go round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round..."

Right. Left turns only, please.

I do prefer F1 to NASCAR, but the NASCAR post-race driver fistfights in the infield are much more entertaining that the usual dull F1 post-race press conference...

lowerlobe
26th Mar 2008, 01:10
Oh, Monaco has actually had more passes in recent years than Sepang. Says a lot, doesn't it.

ZFT is right and actually hellsbrink, I think your statement just about say's it all for your argument.....Overtaking at Monaco.....was that when Fangio was driving???
Gone are the days of being the "last of the late brakers"
That is because they are not close enough to outbrake anyone.....hence my point about aero changes and then we would see action at Sepang and just about every track except for Monaco where the only overtaking is done when someone hits a barrier and stops or passes someone in the pits....

If they could get close enough then you would have more drivers going off the racing line and putting down more rubber and then the racing line would not be so pronounced and we would see some real driving not a procession.

This seems to me more like a mental block you have against Sepang.Did you have a Malaysian girlfriend who dumped you once?????

hellsbrink
26th Mar 2008, 03:03
LL

Strange how they can overtake elsewhere, and the cars were not as aero dependant 9 years ago when the first race was held at Sepang.

Monaco? Let's see, in recent years Schumacher has passed there (both of them), Webber, Montoya... That's just straight off the top of my head. So I guess you ain't been watching much F1 over the years.


(PS. Even Fisichella managed to pass FIVE cars on the track in Monaco 06..... DC and Villeneuve at the chicane, Rosberg at Mirabeau, Liuzzi around the OUTSIDE at Rascasse and I trying to find the 5th one. Sepang 06? ZERO passes on track. That's just one example, look through history and you'll see what I mean)

lowerlobe
27th Mar 2008, 21:22
hellsbrink......yeah right pal...keep dreaming bullwinkle

But to other news...

McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh says his team would be in favour of a rule insisting that drivers on in-laps did not slow down excessively – and in his exclusive itv.com/f1 column this week Coulthard gives this proposal his full backing.

“In my view a rule change is the easiest way to make sure this problem doesn't keep occurring,” he wrote.

“I like the suggestion that drivers will be penalised unless their in-lap is within a certain percentage of their best time.

“It’s clear-cut, and there would be no grounds for a stewards’ enquiry.

“If you’re one-tenth slower than the time you’re supposed to do then you’ll get a penalty.

“People won’t do it then – simple as that.

“But give them the opportunity to try and save fuel and they will.”

Capt.KAOS
27th Mar 2008, 21:37
If you drive a defensive line in Monaco it's nearly impossible to overtake. I've seen many times drivers with 2 sec slower lap times hold up quicker opponents for lap after lap after lap after... That's not possible on most other circuits. Yes, sometimes there's a bold overtaking manoeuvre (Mansell vs Prost 1990) but these are exceptions. The rain of course is the other great equalizer.

lowerlobe
27th Mar 2008, 22:42
Capt.KAOS......Most people err...that's not exactly right because hellsbrink is the only one I've ever heard suggesting that Monaco is easier to overtake than Sepang.

As you said overtaking is the exception rather than the rule at Monaco.

I would like to see 3 cars side by side as Heidfeld,Coulthard and Alonso did at Sepang try and do the same thing in Monaco.It would be a physical impossibility to do the same in Monaco

Raikkonen took the lead at the start but Massa overtook and got the lead back.

Nakajima made short work of Vettel, out-braking him into the first corner.

These are things which hellsbrink say's are impossible ....

All that is needed is to remove these ridiculous aero body parts and we would see overtaking at Sepang and just about every track..except Monaco because you are simply not moving fast enough to get a slipstream....

hellsbrink
27th Mar 2008, 23:23
yeah right pal...keep dreaming

Keep dreaming? I gave you a PERFECT example of what I meant and you say "keep dreaming"!!

You'll be telling me that Hamilton hit the pit lane speed limiter button in Brazil last year next....

lowerlobe
27th Mar 2008, 23:33
I would like to see 3 cars side by side as Heidfeld,Coulthard and Alonso did at Sepang try and do the same thing in Monaco.It would be a physical impossibility to do the same in Monaco

Raikkonen took the lead at the start but Massa overtook and got the lead back.

Nakajima made short work of Vettel, out-braking him into the first corner.

These are things which hellsbrink say's are impossible ....

......Pal you are the only one endorsing Monaco as an overtaking track compared to Sepang......

Myself and others have noted that overtaking at Monaco is possible but is the exception rather than the rule.

I gave you 3 examples of the last race at Sepang including one where 3 cars were side by side well off the racing line outbraking each other into a corner which you say cannot and has not happened....try that move in Monaco...

That's why is wrote 'yeah right pal...keep dreaming bullwinkle'

I don't know what you have against Sepang but overtaking at most tracks these days is limited because of the current rules but to suggest that overtaking is easier in Monaco rather than Sepang is nuts....

hellsbrink
28th Mar 2008, 00:09
In the 9 years there has been a race at Sepang there has only been one race which could be classed as "exciting", and that was the first one in 1998 (remember Ferrari's bendy bargeboards? That race).

Now, if you actually watch things you would see that there can be more passing at Monaco (I would never say that for Hungary, unless it rains). These three cars were not side by side either, the chances of a pass were between slim and negligible, like Webber being held up by Sato last weekend, or indeed like Hamilton being unable to pass Webber despite being faster. I stand by what I say about the straights, you cannot even THINK about getting close to someone when you are going to be going down a straight like that when you go onto the straight from a tight hairpin. As I say, even the MotoGP boys struggle to pass on these straights (despite going faster than F1 and accelerating faster than F1) so you cannot say that it is down to the sticky out bits on the cars, which were not there in 1999 (and something the bikes don't have either) so another excuse is needed for the non-passing over the years. We are not talking about the present rules, but the history of the lack of action after the first lap in the 9 years they have been racing at Sepang. There's been one hell of a difference in the cars, including the power from the engines as well as the aero. And it's still been a procession, so how you can say it's the present aero rules that are the issue is beyond me.

Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that Monaco was an "overtaking" track, just that there is more chance of seeing something happen there than at Sepang. And since I gave you a perfect example of that, with the corresponding amount of passes with the same cars in the same year at Sepang, it does point to there being an issue with the layout. Also, a track as wide as Sepang should allow more "lines" to take through the corners. That doesn't happen and you cannot blame the cars for that either.

PLovett
28th Mar 2008, 05:59
hellsbrink

To push the debate along, there is another possibility. That on tracks where aerodynamic grip is high there will be less overtaking because loss of aerodynamic grip has a greater effect on a F1 car than mechanical.

Monaco is a low aerodynamic grip track, I suspect that Sepang is medium to high. Now when a F1 car gets into the slipstream of another it loses a lot of the aerodynamic grip to the extent they can become decidedly twitchy. This will have a greater effect at Sepang than Monaco.

I never said that Monaco was an "overtaking" track, just that there is more chance of seeing something happen there than at Sepang.

Damn right, whenever there is an overtaking manouver at Monaco there is always the possibility of tears.:{ The railings are forever unforgiving.:uhoh:

ZFT
28th Mar 2008, 07:40
Hellsbrink,


In the 9 years there has been a race at Sepang there has only been one race which could be classed as "exciting", and that was the first one in 1998.

This year was the 10th. I’ve been to 8 of these and they’ve all been exciting, else I wouldn’t keep returning.

Maybe not exciting from your armchair though?

hellsbrink
28th Mar 2008, 07:44
There's always the possibility of tears at any track when someone tries to pass, look at DC and Massa a couple of weeks ago.

Now, as far as the track goes, other medium/low downforce tracks see passing (think Brazil last year alone, for example, and I don't count last year's race at Fuji because of the rain) so why don't you see a real amount of passing on the straights at Sepang?

And to go to the other side of the coin, Hungary is a high downforce track yet sees hardly any passing at all unless it rains! Why does that happen? Simple, the track is hardly ever used so as soon as you go offline you hit a layer of dirt and dust so you have no grip whatsoever. Therefore, you don't get a choice, you are stuck there as you can only use one line (go back to a certain farce of a race in Canada, 06 I think, when the tyres were being torn apart so as soon as you went offline you hit a :mad:load of bits of rubber. Same thing, nobody could pass because there was no chance of any grip as soon as you went offline)

To go back to Sepang, if the track had been designed so there was a faster corner between those two straights then you would see more passing on the start-finish straight as the car behind would have more chance of carrying that little bit of extra speed through the final corner which would give him the chance of getting a run on the guy in front. But since there can basically be no speed differential between the cars exiting the final corner then they can't get a run on the guy in front so they can't pass! And that isn't a "new" problem, it's been there since day one. The new aero issues and homologated engines only show that more. Sure, the track is fine for the guys sitting in the stands as they get to see cars going past them with the foot down, but you can get the same thing by sitting beside a motorway.

Oh, you also have to remember one reason why all these silly hairpins and chicanes are so prevalent now. It was stated quite clearly a few years ago by Bernie Ecclemoan in regard to the sponsors seeing their logos more often. Sorry, that ain't racing.

hellsbrink
28th Mar 2008, 08:25
Get your stats out for passes ON TRACK and not in the pits then.

PS. Can you break these stats down more, as I don't see some tracks listed there that have been used in that time period. Is Italy, for example, being classed as Monza, Imola or both? Where's the Nurburgring or A1 Ring?

And Monaco 06 is totally wrong. Michael Schumacher started at the back of the grid after being penalised for parking at Rascasse and finished 5th. That's 17 passes WITHOUT considering the times he would have had to repass some after pitting (first retirement was after 46 laps so you can't say it was because of cars pulling out, he made the passes). Fischella made 5 passes as stated earlier in that race. That's a minimum of 22 passes from two drivers in that one race alone. Your "stats" are wrong.

You can throw the Brazil ones out the window too, think Schumacher in 06 for starters after going "backwards" after picking up a puncture. He made a shedload of passes that day too.

lowerlobe
28th Mar 2008, 08:46
Tbar....

Ignore him.

He obviously has an issue with the circuit at Sepang and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Another arm chair spectator.....and as you said he his hand on it....

hellsbrink
28th Mar 2008, 08:49
going to dispute the above then, LL?

maximus
28th Mar 2008, 09:00
Jesus hellsbrink, give it a rest, you're starting to sound like a broken record :rolleyes:

hellsbrink
28th Mar 2008, 09:06
So I have to roll over and let someone like LL witter on, despite him being the one who said that passing in Monaco happened in the Fangio era, that the F1 cars are faster on the straights than the motoP bikes, etc?

Nobody forces you to read anything, Maximus.

Miraculix
28th Mar 2008, 10:52
The little red car driven by that cool Finn, is still going to win in the end... ;)

maximus
28th Mar 2008, 11:50
Nobody forces you to read anything, Maximus.

It's a bit difficult when one is interested in F1 and likes to participate but I/we have to put up with you raving on :oh: Would rather contribute to the paint drying thread. :zzz:

Tigs2
28th Mar 2008, 12:13
Hellsbrink

you need to find something else to do. Take up walking or gardening or something. You seem to have a very unhealthy interest in the microworkings of F1, especially at Sepang.It really is incredibly boring:cool::cool:

lowerlobe
28th Mar 2008, 23:03
Let's change the track on this record.....

Who thinks Massa is going to get the boot from the prancing horse?

Is he making too many mistakes or is he doing OK and making the normal mistakes any driver makes?

If he does leave who will take his place next year?

Personally I think Massa is doing OK,he probably did spin in Malaysia but then he was probably trying to catch Kimi....and he did get pole.

aviate1138
30th Mar 2008, 13:31
Max Mosley seems to have a predilection for Nazi sex romps!

This was removed from cyberspace just a few minutes ago.

Max Mosley sadomasochistic nazi-style orgy - Motorsport Forums

Video: Watch F1 boss Max Mosley play Nazi sex games with hookers

The son of infamous British wartime fascist leader Oswald Mosley is filmed romping with ...


It's all over the front of a UK Sunday sex paper.

www.notw.co.uk won't come up on my screen now 13:29 UK Time 30th March.

If the above is true then Max Mosley has got his comeuppance at last.

F-1 will be well rid of him IMHO.

Say again s l o w l y
30th Mar 2008, 14:03
News of the World said:
The son of infamous British wartime fascist leader Oswald Mosley is filmed romping with five hookers at a depraved NAZI-STYLE orgy in a torture dungeon. Mosley— a friend to F1 big names like Bernie Ecclestone and Lewis Hamilton— barks ORDERS in GERMAN as he lashes girls wearing mock DEATH CAMP uniforms and enjoys being whipped until he BLEEDS.

Racing boss Max Mosley wallops one of the squealing hookers with leather paddle

The multi-millionaire son of Sir Oswald, who was a pal of Adolf Hitler, plays a concentration camp commandant in a FIVE-HOUR torture chamber video.

Mosley—the most powerful man in motor-racing—barks orders in German as he WHIPS two hookers dressed in striped uniforms reminiscent of AUSCHWITZ garb while girls in Nazi uniforms look on.

At one point the wrinkled 67-year-old—who publicly likes to give the impression he has put his father's evil legacy behind him—yells "she needs more of ze punishment!" while brandishing a LEATHER STRAP over a brunette's naked bottom.

Then the lashes rain down as Mosley counts them out in German: "Eins! Zwei! Drei! Vier! Fünf! Sechs!"
In the midst of one beating, a panting Max Mosley watches one hooker take off her Nazi uniform

With each blow, the girl yelps in pain as grinning, grey-haired Mosley becomes clearly aroused. And after the beating, he makes her perform a sex act on him.

Last month the urbane president of the FIA—Formula One's governing body—hit the headlines when he announced a crackdown on racism in the sport after McLaren ace Lewis Hamilton was abused by Spanish spectators.

But on Friday the only ‘crackdowns' married Mosley was interested in were on bare buttocks...including his own.
Plaster

Before hammering away at the girls he plays a cowering death camp inmate himself, having his GENITALS inspected and his hair searched for LICE—mocking the humiliating way Jews were treated by SS death camp guards in World War II.
Hooker in mock death camp clothes is gagged

Then, head bowed and tied up in chains, he is interrogated by a dominatrix before being chained up and LASHED so hard over a TORTURE BENCH that he WHIMPERS for mercy and has to have a wound dressing put on his backside.

His Jew-hating father—who had Hitler as guest of honour at his marriage—would have been proud of his warped son's command of German as he struts around looking for bottoms to whack.

But even the vile Thirties fascist—whose blackshirt thugs terrorised London's East End—might have been less impressed with the sordid company his offspring keeps.

Mosley's appointment with his hookers was at a smart £2million riverside flat on London's Chelsea Embankment at noon on Friday.

Our investigators obtained a graphic video of his sick antics.

The girls arrived first, led by the main dominatrix, a stern-faced blonde, carrying a suitcase laden with whips, chains and uniforms. Half an hour later, Mosley—married to devoted wife Jean since 1960—turned up wearing a smart overcoat and suit after making the short walk from his nearby London home.

The 6ft 2in former barrister once helped his father try to restart his political career in the Sixties with a new fascist Union Movement party. He was even a prospective parliamentary candidate himself.
Max Mosley lies face down on the bed trussed up before his punishment

But the party that got his vote on Friday was one involving violent perversion in a rigged-up basement torture dungeon.

After paying £2,500 in cash, Mosley—a good friend of F1 billionaire Bernie Ecclestone—was ordered by the head hooker to strip as she played out his sick fantasy.

"OK, undress," she snapped. "UNDRESS! You are going to be punished to be shown how we treat prisoners in our facility."

As his white Y-fronts hit the floor, the powerfully built blonde barked out her orders: "Head down. Let's see if they have been keeping you clean at the other facility.

"Hurry up! Lie face down! Don't look at me!" Mosley meekly obeyed and was chained and manacled before another blonde dominatrix, wearing only a jacket, shirt and knee-length boots, entered the room.

As another hooker ticked off points on an inspection sheet, she roughly scrutinised his head and private parts before demanding his age. "I'm 42," he whispered, lying to attract a severe beating. He also lied about his name, saying he was called Tim Barnes, so the punishment would be really painful.

He got what he wanted. "You are now going to be punished," hissed the dominatrix. "You are going to receive 12 strokes of the birch plus another three for not telling me your real age. Then you will receive six strokes of the cane."

Mosley was then bent over and strapped naked to a leather torture bench. The muscular blonde dealt him 15 savage blows. Towards the end Mosley was whimpering and gasped for breath. Reddened and bruised, he then received a further six strokes with a cane.

His flogging over, he left the room before saying, "Thank you, mistress". After having his wounds dressed, Mosley makes the transformation from masochist to sadist. Now fully clothed, he bends two blonde girls over the whipping bench, their striped concentration camp-style uniform bottoms yanked down to expose their buttocks.
Hooker in mock death camp clothes is gagged

He converses in German with one girl throughout the torture, loving every minute of death camp role-play, while the other girl pleads: "I don't know what you are saying, so I don't know what to do."

Oxford-educated Mosley has refused to condemn his father who was considered so dangerous he was interned during the war. He once said in an interview: "He was wonderful as a person. But I don't think my father would have made a good dictator. He talked tough but, fundamentally, he was too soft."

Whereas his son is a hard man—especially when it comes to beating girls' naked bottoms. One of the hookers is strapped into a gag to stifle her screams as Mosley lays into her backside in front of the other four girls. With a Nazi swagger, he counts each stroke in German before having sex with his ‘victim'.

A frantic orgy then begins, as a brunette hooker is strapped to a bench before a dominatrix uses a sex toy on her. Later she performs a lesbian act on one of the blondes. Red-faced and panting, Mosley looks on like a child in a sweet shop, but surrounded by bright red bottoms.

The orgy lasted almost five hours and the five hookers spent the final ten minutes laughing and drinking wine together. One said: "The girls have all had a good seeing-to!"

After the sex marathon, Mosley dressed again and had a quick pit-stop, turning down wine in favour of a cup of tea. At 5.05pm, he put on his overcoat and disappeared into the blustery afternoon to resume his other life as Max the respectable motor-racing mogul who will be officiating at the next Formula One Grand Prix in Bahrain next weekend.

It was his wife of 48 years, Jean, who introduced him to his love of motorsport. After meeting him at a fascist Union Movement rally she took him to his first race meeting to watch British ace Stirling Moss.

On choosing the grand prix world—a decision his father opposed as "dangerous and unwise"—over politics, Mosley said: "It was an escape from the political arguments. I got fed up. Nobody knew me in racing, though in Germany and Austria people used to sidle up and whisper, ‘Your father vaz a great man'."

In 2005, Mosley—who has two children, Alexander, 37, and 35-year-old Patrick—was made a Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur, one of the highest decorations in France, for his services to motor sport. In the late 1970s, he became the official legal adviser to the Formula One Constructors Association (FOCA)—the body that represents the teams.

With his sharp legal mind and devotion to the sport, he soon rose to the top and was first elected president of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) in 1993.

Speaking of his role in the FIA and his friendship with Bernie Ecclestone, he once said: "My job as president of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile isn't paid. But I've done business with Bernie outside Formula One. In property mainly.

"Money doesn't turn me on and I like to think I can leave whenever I want."

Money doesn't have to turn him on—he's already rich. A multi-millionaire, he has a base in Monaco and a £3 million home in London's fashionable Chelsea.
Shadow

As well as inheriting from his father and mother—society beauty and Nazi sympathiser Diana Mitford—he made a fortune selling his shares in March Engineering in 1977.

But the shadow of his Nazi father is always in the background. Mosley Jnr once claimed his father—who died in 1980—disliked Hitler, thinking him "over the top", but he admitted Oswald admired Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.

He said of his mother, who died in 2003: "It was true she liked Hitler. Apparently he was an enormously attractive personality."

Now Mosley has shown his true colours too—and brought a new kind of shame on his already tarnished family name.


:eek::eek::eek::eek:

glad rag
30th Mar 2008, 16:04
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DxvFADEX3us

:E

PLovett
31st Mar 2008, 03:03
So, whats that got to do with F1?:=

How he gets his rocks off has nothing to do with his job. He doesn't pontificate about declining moral standards or stand for public office claiming the virtues of decent morals or claim some moral ascendancy, unlike some politicians who have been shown to be less than "wholesome".:yuk:

Just typical prurient interest from the usual suspects, British tabloid waste of spaces.:mad:

Get back to debating F1 please.

aviate1138
31st Mar 2008, 07:50
So you think Max Mosley is doing a good job? Really??? :rolleyes:

GPMG
31st Mar 2008, 09:33
Comparing amount of 20 - 25 overtakes per race? Gosh, what a thrill that must be.

Did any of you F1 fans watch the 250GP race in Jerez yesterday? Or did nursey forget to wake you from your coma?

Bet you would have pooped-le-pants at the last corner action in the Motogp.

SLFguy
31st Mar 2008, 13:29
Did any of you F1 fans watch the 250GP race in Jerez yesterday?


Yeah I did, was it the one where the first 3 guys just went round in circles never ever looking like they were going to change places for 70% of the race? Or am I thinking of something else.

Oh and the last corner...so Tosland got out of shape and nearly took another rider out - that's the the incident you chose from the whole race to illustrate how exciting it is?????

Alloa Akbar
31st Mar 2008, 13:41
Mosley does his job like a nazi, so why the shock about his private life..

I bet Ron Dennis was laughing in his cornflakes on sunday!!:}

GPMG
31st Mar 2008, 13:55
Ahhh such amazing knowledge of motorbikes SLF Guy.

The 3 guys at the front you are referring to? that's MotoGP not 250Gp so well done on that one.
Try watching the race that I was referring to and then try again.

I take it that you tuned in at the end of the MotoGP race and didnt bother with the hard racing and overtaking...yes overtaking at the start.

The last corner incident? Didn't see Toseland make a mistake, Did see Capirossi make the most of two other riders having a scrap and taking 5th.

By the way Toseland had Bronchitis and was in a very bad way all weekend, he amazed everyone how he managed to even sit on a bike, yet alone qualify and then race it.

Don't try to make out that any kind of Motorcycle racing is anywhere near as boring as F1 as you just look ignorant and a wee bit lame.

Your go.

Alloa Akbar
31st Mar 2008, 14:33
GPMG

Whilst in the dark days of the Emperor Schumacher I would have been inclined to agree with you, if I were you I would reserve judgment just a tad.. Yes I agree motorcycles are damn fine entertainment, however now that we have at least 4 drivers all capable of knocking spots off each other at the front, a healthy mid - field and fewer driver aids, I have a feeling that F1 may well be in the ascendancy in terms of entertainment.. just wait til it rains at Spa..:ok:

Incidentally I have a foot in both camps as a bike riding / car driving MOTORSPORT fan;)

GPMG
31st Mar 2008, 14:54
Aloa,
I didn't say I dislike F1. It is a lot more interesting now and all the better for the influx of new drivers and the loss of some driver aids.

Mind you I think that a two race per day format with no pitstops would make the on track action a bit more lively. Oh and ensure that the drivers get p**sed the night before and get into orgies with supermodels and smoke JPS or Marlboro in the Pits and wear Brut aftershave etc etc.

But it will always struggle to get close to MotoGP, 250gp, 125gp , WSB and BSB etc.

That Jerez MotoGP wasn't even a great race by biking standards, for that you'd need to go to WSB in Imola 2002. Or some of the 2007 MotoGP races.

SLFguy
31st Mar 2008, 15:07
gpmg

Soz - you are right - I didn't read your post correctly, (beats self).

I was more of the opinion that it was a bad race, (albeit the wrong one!!!) to use to illustrate how exciting bikes were. I love both and feel that they each have their own merits.

GPMG
31st Mar 2008, 15:12
Oh nutz SLF, now I feel stupid for coming across all Comic Book Guy and sitting on my high horse.

Sorry for me being all poncy.

ORAC
1st Apr 2008, 07:01
Mark Steyn on Mosley and his sex scandal.... :D:D

Sechs scandal (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Nzk1NGI4MWYzODI1YTlhZjVmOTY5M2IxZDdiMDNmNjA=)...... I don't see why the Formula One Grand Prix types are so upset: Surely it's perfectly normal to pull in for a new set of weals......

Dop
1st Apr 2008, 11:14
The whole Mosely thing has me so torn. On the one hand - the News of the World is a abhorrent rag, and what someone does among consulting adults behind closed doors is their own business.

But on the other hand, it's SO TEMPTING to make a remark concerning trees, apples, and fall distance! And Mosley is a git anyway.

chuks
1st Apr 2008, 11:58
You Brits really take the brass cupcake!

Not just naked in a f*cking dungeon with 5 (five, count 'em, five) hookers but with overtones of S & M AND Nazism! Eeh, Daddy must have left some kind of weird legacy there.

Next week in the News of the Screws: The head of the FIA sets himself on fire and runs down the Strand at high noon naked and screaming something or other in German.

Or is this just an April Fools gag? Oh, sorry! We Yanks don't do irony, you know.

I guess that paper must be a reliable source, right up there with our National Review so that I shall take this as real, in which case I wish I too had had the benefits of a public school education!

There must be so many areas of human sexual relations that I have just completely missed out on. Okay, in Governor Spitzer's case I could just say that my budget wouldn't reach to his depths. But with this one I just never, ever, in my wildest dreams imagined that someone seemingly normal would A: Do this kind of weird sh*t and B: Somehow not notice someone taking piccies of it all going on!

aviate1138
1st Apr 2008, 13:00
From The Times
April 1, 2008
Pressure grows on Max Mosley to stand down

Edward Gorman
Bernie Ecclestone, the billionaire boss of Formula One, said last night that he did not believe it would be appropriate for Max Mosley to attend this weekend’s Bahrain Grand Prix after the lurid revelations of Mr Mosley’s part in an alleged Nazi-style orgy with five prostitutes.

Mr Ecclestone, a long-time friend of Mr Mosley, the president of the world governing body of motorsport, the Fédération Internationale de l’Auto-mobile (FIA), told The Times that Mr Mosley’s presence would distract from the race and would not be appreciated by the Bahraini Royal Family.

“He shouldn’t go, should he? The problem is he would take all the ink away from the race and put it on something which, honestly and truly, is nobody else’s business anyway,” Mr Ecclestone said. Asked how the Royal Family might react to Mr Mosley’s presence, Mr Ecclestone said: “They wouldn’t like it.

B Fraser
2nd Apr 2008, 20:39
Maybe he would be happier presiding over the world rally championships.......

.....of the torch-lit variety ;)

B Fraser
3rd Apr 2008, 20:11
Bernie Ecclestone.... "who's in the lead ?"

Ron Dennis...... "It's Max wearing matching handcuffs and it looks like he's just about to be lapped"


sorry, couldn't resist :E

cargosales
3rd Apr 2008, 22:20
"It's Max wearing matching handcuffs and it looks like he's just about to be lapped"


Or should that be slapped?

LOL, I couldn't resist either :E

JB007
3rd Apr 2008, 23:49
Mosley surely has to go! Quiet nights in Paris eh??

Martin Brundle for Presidente!!!!

cargosales
4th Apr 2008, 00:53
Mosley surely has to go! Quiet nights in Paris eh??


Perhaps they were very quiet nights in Paris for Mrs Mosely, assuming himself sought to indulge his fantasies there as well? I feel nothing but a great deal of sympathy for the lady and at the same time utterly support her for NOT doing the 'we're really a totally committed loving couple' type of crappy tabloid photocall that usually accompanies these sordid news stories. Bravo Mrs Mosely!


Martin Brundle for Presidente!!!!

:D :D :D

yakker
4th Apr 2008, 13:49
When Max goes, as he will surely have to, and as Ron wants to reduce his commitment to McLaren, offer Ron the Presidency. Now that I would like to see.

Lon More
4th Apr 2008, 20:30
Thought he was going to make a staement today?

Suggestions being made that it was a fit up

JB007
4th Apr 2008, 22:48
Max Mosley;
"I shall no longer be taking part in diabolical, disgusting and appaulling activities...like running the FIA!"

G-CPTN
4th Apr 2008, 23:08
“Lawyers representing Mr Mosley have today served proceedings against the News of the World claiming unlimited damages,” an FIA spokesman said in a statement on Friday.

Mosley indicated earlier this week that he intended to sue for a breach of privacy.

“It is against the law in most countries to publish details of a person’s private life without good reason,” he wrote in a letter to FIA members.

“The publications by the News of the World are a wholly unwarranted invasion of my privacy and I intend to issue legal proceedings against the newspaper in the UK and other jurisdictions.”

There is no specific privacy law in the UK but Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights recognises a right to respect for one’s “private and family life”.

SOTV
5th Apr 2008, 13:09
Final qualifying:

1. Kubica
2. Massa
3. Hamilton
4. Raikkonen
5. Kovalainen
6. Heidfeld
7. Trulli
8. Rosberg
9. Button
10. Alonso

Papa Charlie
5th Apr 2008, 16:34
A Pole on pole! ;)

Tigs2
5th Apr 2008, 16:52
Apparently they are going to send some Stewards from the National Jockey club to assist with setting standards in F1, as it has come to their notice that some characters in F1 are also prone to excessive use of the whip.

Ken Wells
5th Apr 2008, 21:08
Final qualifying:

1. Kubica
2. Massa
3. Hamilton
4. Raikkonen
5. Kovalainen
6. Heidfeld
7. Trulli
8. Rosberg
9. Button
10. Alonso Hey the FERRET is on 10th!!!!!!!!!!!!

BombayDuck
6th Apr 2008, 14:14
Ok, hands up all those who said Massa couldn't drive without traction control! :E

And Alonso v/s Hamilton all over again... hee hee hee. :p Glad to see BMW come out tops because of this, they seem to have a damn good car this year.

And one Force India car actually came 12th! :ok:

Jay.Walker.DUS
6th Apr 2008, 14:36
Someone ought to take that arrogant pr!ck called Lewis round the back, give him a right good slapping and tell him to fcuking drive properly.

That boy's going to kill either himself or someone else. If he kills himself, well, good riddance!

Well done to Ferrari, and to BMW. Great drives from Massa and Kubica. Not the most boring of races held in Shakir, but that track is not really build for specatular racing.

Duckbutt
6th Apr 2008, 15:26
Someone ought to take that arrogant pr!ck called Lewis round the back, give him a right good slapping and tell him to fcuking drive properly.

That boy's going to kill either himself or someone else. If he kills himself, well, good riddance!

In your well thought out, sensible and rational criticism I presume you refer to the Alonso incident. It really should be born in mind that people far more qualified to comment than me (don't know what your qualifications are to judge JW, do please tell) suspect that Alonso engineered the clash either through deliberately taking it slowly out of the corner, or much more unforgivingly, deliberately braked.

I respectfully suggest anyone with half a brain would wait until the telemetry becomes public before they apportion blame.

pineridge
6th Apr 2008, 15:44
Duckbut said.....

"I respectfully suggest anyone with half a brain would wait until the telemetry becomes public before they apportion blame."

I have almost half a brain and I saw Alonso reversing into Hamilton. Honest.

Duckbutt
6th Apr 2008, 15:56
Sorry, perhaps I should have made it clear that should telemetry prove that Alonso was innocent and Hamilton deliberately drove into the back of him then I would totally agree with the sentiments expressed by Mr Walker.

I have almost half a brain

Mr Pineridge, if you are prepared to come to a conclusion before the definitive evidence becomes available then I find it difficult to disagree with you.

Tigs2
6th Apr 2008, 16:22
It really is a horrible Newspaper, but boy are they turning the heat on Mosley now.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0604_mosley.shtml

One hooker claims she found it difficult not to laugh as he was speaking in an allo allo style German accent:}

Capt.KAOS
6th Apr 2008, 17:30
but that track is not really build for specatular racing.Like most of the designs of Hermann Tilke :zzz:, but that's what F1 is about today, forget about tradition and beautiful tracks like Mugello, Zandvoort. Night races at Singapore, that's the future.
In your well thought out, sensible and rational criticism I presume you refer to the Alonso incident. It really should be born in mind that people far more qualified to comment than me (don't know what your qualifications are to judge JW, do please tell) suspect that Alonso engineered the clash either through deliberately taking it slowly out of the corner, or much more unforgivingly, deliberately braked.That´s a very old race trick that every racer knows, I saw it happen at least 3 times during the race. Hamilton should have been aware of that, but he's making more mistakes lately.
Ok, hands up all those who said Massa couldn't drive without traction control! :E
Not me :p

chuks
6th Apr 2008, 19:16
No joke, there was a report in the local German rag that said Ron Dennis was taken to the GP Medical Facility at the track in Bahrain after laughing himself sick about Max Mosely.

Jay.Walker.DUS
6th Apr 2008, 19:17
Hit a nerve there Ducks? If Lewis had the other half of my brain, as he seems to be missing one, he wouldn't have put himself in that situation now would he? He screws up the start and in the rush to gain lost ground rear ends Alonso. But of course, lets blame the foreign driver instead of the homegrown lad. :yuk:

Alonso, in case you missed it, was leading Hamilton. And if he chooses to play one of the oldest tricks in the book on wonderboy, well I can't really blame him for anything. Besides, does it really sound plausible that Alonso would risk getting taken out of the race just to pish-off Hamilton? He may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, racing drivers rarely are, but I don't think he's that stupid.

Lon More
6th Apr 2008, 19:57
Lewis Hamilton after the race; I moved to the right and he moved to the right and that was it - a racing accident I guess


No question of telemetry being played back or of a protest being made and, unlike a similar incident when Scummy Snr. went baying for DC's blood, no reaction in the pitlane.

The whole thing was blown up by a remark by MB that the McLaren crew were all muttering, "Brake test" How would he know from the commentary box?

david1300
7th Apr 2008, 00:08
I enjoyed the race, but is there any way we can get some other commentary. It's sickening to hear the drooling over Lewis. Lewis made 3 big mistakes over the weekend - his practice crash, his start, and running into Alonso. Whingers - get over it.

If someone had hit Lewis at the start would those whining one-eyed commentators have blamed him or the person who ran into him? For goodness sake, all the drivers who drove round him were good enough to avoid him, yet when there is a speed mismatch between him and Alonso he can't do the same, but drives straight into Alonso (and yes, I have raced, at a very junior level, so I have some experience in mismatched speed off a corner for a whole list of reasons - slight line correction, worse traction traction than expected, slight lift to hold my line, to name a few of the perfectly good and legit reasons).

lowerlobe
7th Apr 2008, 01:19
david1300....I think we will have to wait until the BBC does the race again if we are to hope for a change in commentary.

The telemetry given out by Renault and by LH's admission prove that there was no brake testing or lift off of the throttle by FA.Duckbutt.....It looks like LH is at fault again....and I'm waiting for Ken Wells to come up with some sort of reference to a ferret again.
I don't know why he is called a ferret but it seems as though the ferret is out driving the wonderboy.It is a pity that FA is not in a competitive car because it would be good to see FA against LH in a real race.

At least one commentator said that it looks like FA's contribution to McLaren last year was understated in terms of driver feedback.

Seeing that FA was in front I guess LH could not blame his mirrors this time for the incident.....

A great race for BMW but it looks like Ferrari are the team to beat.