Buying a plane......

[pilotdude09]

Hey guys,

Now everyone i know thinks I'm out of my mind for wanting to buy a plane but rentals aren't exactly readily available up here.

So i just want to have a look and see whats involved etc, might end up not buying anything for a few years but i want to see the process involved etc :)

First of all, where does one start? i know a couple of people who have bought planes but both have been purchased overseas and i only want to buy from within Aussie.

What are some websites to look at?

What should i be looking for? and what should i watch out for?

How old its too old?

Also ive spoken to a few other people and they have all said consider a Jabiru as alot of flight schools are using them and they are cheap and good quality. thoughts etc on the Jabiru?

One last question.....Finance, do you go to a bank and ask for a "plane" loan or do the manufacturers assist with that part if you go through them? is there any finance company's that assist with this sort of stuff?

Help much appreciated, as i said just interested to see whats involved and whats out there! Also if its a stupid thing to go buy a plane and get insurance etc etc please tell me!

:ok:

Edit: Budget would prob be under 50k! less is best!

[Mr Bomb]

Pilotdude, you say budget is under $50K so I guess that rules out a G550:E

In order to be of any help, especially since you have asked about specific airframe/s then we would need to know what you want it for. Are you happy with a Recreational aircraft or do you want GA? Do you want to put it on line with a school? Is there a market for this where you are?

Capital cost of the aircraft is one thing, maintaining it and operating it are a whole different set of figures. Let us know what flying you intend to do and poeple may be able to help a little more.

Cheers
Mr B

[pilotdude09]

At this stage it would only be for recreational flying around the bush etc.

But can you actually lease it out to a flying school? if so that could be an option later on.

Cheers :)



As i said to one person today, you spend 50k on a boat, i spend 50k on a plane :D but then i guess i pay way more $$$ in operational costs!

[Torres]

Packet of Bex, a nice cup of tea and a long lie down until the feeling passes, would be far cheaper!

Your proposed purchase price indicates you favour the "Aircraft Buy Now, Pay Later" program.

$50,000 aircraft now, another $50,000 plus very soon after in maintenance, engine and prop overhaul. Sadly, the is no such thing as a bargain aeroplane!

[Capt Wally]

hey 'pilotdude09' you might want to tag along on the thread I started recently regarding buying a plane, albiet either a C172 or Cherokee but you may find out something about others along the way:ok:


CW

[Flying Binghi]

Pilotdude09,

For what you want to do, have a look at a new Jabiru.
If you are mechanicly minded the ultralight Jabiru is the cheapest option - under 70K flyaway I think.

I would avoid putting any aircraft on line until you have gained a lot more knoweledge of aircraft and the costs involved.

[Desert Duck]

Dude - not that I want to spoil your fun. Every aircraft is expensive to run unless you cut corners.

"If it flys, floats or fornicates it is cheaper to rent it"

[tinpis]

Make sure the Thronomister gaskets have been inspected :hmm:

[RadioSaigon]

Bloody L, if you're looking for a plane, Bunnings would be the place to go...

If it's an aircraft you are after, that's a whole 'nother story.

pet hate of mine :)

[Chimbu chuckles]

What about a quick build RV7/8/7a/8a kit. You could end up with a very fast, all metal, mildly aerobatic, very sexy, efficient 2 seat tourer...which you can maintain yourself if you're so inclined.

[tinpis]

Last time I looked Chimbu them things ran out at about 250 grand

[Mr Bomb]

Tinny,
RV7/8 would are not much more than 100K for a nicely equipped conventionly panelled aircraft. About AUD$36000 for the QB kit, $40K for a new engine, 15K for avionics and $10K for paint and finishing (plus 2000+hrs of your time!). Oh yeah add in $3-4K for tools, but you can sell them or amortise your cost across building your next aircraft!!!!

An RV10 on the other hand (Vans 4 seat tourer) are being advertised completed for $250K plus!

Cheers
Mr B.

[VH-XXX]

A Jabiru would fit the bill nicely for you.

$50k will get you an older LSA 55 with a good new'ish engine.

$58k will get you a brand new J120 2 seater with top end overhaul time of 1,000 and bottom end 2,000 with 500 kg's MTOW. Cruise on around 98 knots.

J160's new are $75k, cruise the same, but 135 litre wet wings and larger cabin area.

J230 for $93k, 6 cylinder, cruise on 120 knots, RA or GA night registered and NVFR in GA rego.


Compared to a so called "REAL" aircraft running costs could be less than half, especially for a new machine.

[Jabawocky]

Tinny

when the dollar was weaker you would pay around $250K for a fully IFR well kitted RV-10.........and thats the best there is in any 4 seater.

Reckon now its down around $200K for one.

RV7's are probably $140K for a flash one

J:ok:

[youngmic]

If your credit worthy banks shouldn't have to much problem with a 50/50 deal.

DON'T BY A GA AIRCRAFT, NO WAY, NO HOW, NEVER!!! If 50k is your budget.

The sooner those aging old GA drag buckets are recycled into cheap nasty Chinese frying pans the better the world will be.

As much as I would like to I just can't ignore those wretched Jabiru's and there smarmy owners who go on and on about only burning 13 L/hr doing 100 kts every where, and never paying landing fees.

They band together and fly all over the country in large happy laughing groups with total disregard to all those GA owners who have to pay and pay and pay just to go to the same places 5% quicker and when they arrive they then break down and have to pay and pay again till a LAME fixes their crook mag or changes a flat tyre. Whilst those annoying little Jabiru's just keep flying along in some self maintained euphoric bubble. And never so much as moments regard to the critically important governance of the safety regulator.

Walking past a Jabiru or similar to buy an old piper or Cessna is like walking past a Subaru WRX to buy Belarus tractor when your in the market for a sporty shopping car.

Could hurt myself getting down from this soap box.

[PlankBlender]

I'd love to go the Jabiru way, but I haven't found a modern IFR single yet that I can pick up for around 100k with good engine and avionics..

Anyone know anything about upcoming alternatives?

[Propstop]

Youngmic
with those sentiments about the old corrosion buckets you will send this poor LAME broke if that ever happens.
I am still happy working in the dark continent on old Twotters and B1900D! The sudden rash of cooked PT6's is keeping me gainfully employed. Thank goodness we do not have a fleet with TPE331!!! There is a SC7 rotting on the tarmac here though.

Pilotdude09.
DO NOT EVER BUY A CHEAP AIRCRAFT WITH FINANCE as the LAME will eventually own it while you are still paying it off. The AD's will surely catch you out and a stuffed engine for whatever reason is the finish as it will generally cost you more than the aircraft will be worth. I could go on but I do hope you get the drift.

[youngmic]

G'day G,

The sultan of Oman will go broke before you ever do:ok:

TPE331's are like cooking a good steak, but some seem to insist on doing them well done, god knows why.

[VH-XXX]

Youngmic, your post is an absolute classic and made me laugh. The euphoric bubble comment is a gem.

What you say is 100% true though...

The truth is that Jabs do do 100 knots on around 13-14 litres an hour, they ARE cheap to run, they ARE just as safe when maintained as their bigger GA brothers, they GREAT fun and really are the WRX of the skies comparitively speaking. The J230 / J430 model is in comparison the 3.0R Liberty, bigger with more room and 6 cylinders.

A J230 will cost sub $100k brand new factory built and a bit more for a certified NVFR 2 seater model. If you don't mind amateur built, you can build your own or "factory assist" with a full IFR setup with constant speed prop etc and have 4 seats and a payload of around 390 kg - impressive, then cruise at 120 knots on 23-24 lph.

Both types, small and large are impressive performers and there's no denying that. As far as longjevity goes, there are models out there with 5,000+ hours on airframe, however these are rare as they haven't been around long enough, so you can't complain about ruggedness just yet for what is essentially an unknown.

[Mr Milk]

youngmic + vh-xxx

You silly silly boys or girls.
you are both surely living in the deluded faith that these ultralights will still be flying around when the old $hitter cessnas, pipers and beeches wont be:}.

dont get me wrong the ultralight scene is great but the G.A machines of the 60's will take some killing yet.

Yes they are cheaper to run and great for going for a jolly, but the REAL Machines will still not be outdone in load, speed, and their general robust design all at once. you guys are comparing apples and oranges.

[VH-XXX]

Some of your dreams will come true for this thread when THIS year RA-Aus gains 760kg MTOW, yes 760 !

Coming soon to RA-Aus. TRUST ME! THIS Year.

Watch those 150's and Tommy's go up by 30% !!!

[PlankBlender]

VH-XXX, is it possible to make a factory built Jabiru J230D with the glass cockpit IFR legal?

[pilotdude09]

Thanks guys! the advice is much much appreciated and certainly given me a better understanding of buying an Aircraft :O

Look forward to more advice etc, the Jab looks and sounds a good plane.


I'm lucky as one of my old TAFE Lecturer's father was a LAME for Qantas for 38 years and i get along with him quite well and hes offered to do any work needed and to give anything i bought a once over.

At the moment its looking like it'll be atleast 12 months away, but if i do end up buying a house might try and get a larger mortgage and get the plane :p

:ok:

[VH-XXX]

Plankman, doubt it. It's NVFR only through a bit of a tiny loophole in that LSA aircraft are VFR only, but that includes night through definition of VFR.

IFR is not permitted in LSA and they won't be certifying the Jabs in the full GA category because it costs too much, hence the reason for the LSA category in the first place which allows smaller mum and dad manufacturers to compete with the big guys.

They are clever with their dash set-up for the NVFR as they use a pissy little TSO'ed Garmin SL30 VOR which on its' own is certified with just a crappy line and arrows on the display, however it's slaved to a non-tso'ed Dynon display and works like the "real" ones, but a fraction of the price.

[Torres]

"I'm lucky as one of my old TAFE Lecturer's father was a LAME for Qantas for 38 years and i get along with him quite well and hes offered to do any work needed and to give anything i bought a once over.

At the moment its looking like it'll be at least 12 months away, but if i do end up buying a house might try and get a larger mortgage and get the plane."

Dude. Your mental processes are a very serious concern. I think you need a reality check! :ugh:

With all due respect to your TAFE teacher's dear old dad, I suggest you go find a hard nosed LAME with 38 years solid experience on a GA hangar floor, not Qantas (if he's retired he probably no longer holds an AME license), and pay the experienced GA LAME to carry out a full airframe, engine and instrument inspection, including a complete Log Book and AD compliance inspection.

You will also need a CofA, CofR and title inspection to be aware of any existing encumbrances and liabilities.

And if you need to load your family's home mortgage to indulge your hobby, I suggest you find a new lower cost hobby that fits within your discretionary, disposable income bracket.

Like stamp collecting or table tennis. :ok:

[lostpianoplayer]

Well, I hate to say it, but I have to kinda differ with the "don't buy an aircraft, it's really expensive" brigade. Of course it's expensive, but there are ways to keep the costs under control. Personally, my first aircraft cost about US$7500 - a Spezio Tuholer - and another NZ$5000 or so to import, check out thoroughly, and certify in NZ. It's not given me too much bother. I was working as a gas-pumper on an airport at the time, and it was a huge amount of money to me at the time, but I never regretted it for a moment. I now have a small fleet - business has been kind to me - and don't regret, even vaguely, spending far more than is 'sensible' for the stunning privilege of flying myself around. I don't, personally (I realise others differ) try to apply standard financial thinking to aircraft. If the question had been, "what kind of aircraft can I buy that will guarantee that it's cheaper than it would be to rent", well, sure, buying an aircraft doesn't make sense. It's always cheaper to rent, for 99% of private pilots. But some things, like marrying the right woman, buying the right house, choosing the right job, and buying an aircraft, transcend monetary issues. If buying an aircraft means a modest extension on the mortgage, well, why not? There are plenty of experimental and LSA aircraft that are available cheaply. They have various limitations (no commercial ops, no IFR, and so on) but are otherwise subject to the laws of physics, just like any other aircraft. I totally agree about not skimping on maintenance, and going in with your eyes open (my hourly rate on my various aircraft, most of which get 100 hours a year or more, is about $400, the vast majority of which is amortised maintenance) but who wants to be on their deathbed thinking they coulda owned an aircraft, but didn't, cos they wanted more equity on their house? In my opinion, for the right person, WHETHER to own an aircraft isn't even a question. The only question is HOW. Richard Bach has a fantastic book of short stories, one of which is called "Why you need to own an aircraft, and how to do it". Or something like that. It's one of the best bits of writing I've ever read, and I think it's bang on. First, DECIDE to buy an aircraft, then work out how. It'll happen. Good luck to you.

[PlankBlender]

lostpianoplayer, you're spot on :ok:

I am just trying to figure out how to acquire my first plane, and at one point during running the numbers and doing the other important legwork, one has to necessarily come to a point where one decides that although it might not make too much sense economically (the personal plane option, having one one line is a different proposition altogether) and at best one might not loose money on it in the long term, the other reaons to own a plane are worthwhile doing it.

Make sure you have those reasons though: e.g. "I will travel around the state/continent/East Coast" extensively in the next two years", "Getting to see the famliy/to the beach house is easier/quicker" etc. Otherwise, you will most probably find that your expensive toy sits around somewhere and you will end up losing chunks of money on it!

Thanks also for the Richard Bach recommendations, I think you mean "A Gift of Wings" for the collection of the short stories, and there's also "Flying: The Aviation Trilogy" which could be of interest for ppruners. I love Richard's writing, pick up any of his books and you'll most likely be inspired and come out richer and happier on the other side..

[tinpis]

Yer cant tell 'em Torres.....:uhoh:
Terminal case of Anorakitus.

http://www.americanjuniorclassics.com/images/Jim_Early-250x.jpg

[Capt Wally]

I'm believing more & more after reading threads like this & the one I started elsewhere here that owning a plane will 'cost' No 2 ways about that. Like it's being said here, decide you want a plane then figure how to fund it. I guess it's no diff than owning an expensive motor car (any car for that matter), a flash boat or perhaps even a a wife !;) it's only a matter of how much you can afford to loose. With the latter tho it WILL be everything when you sell her !;)

We`all have 'vices', some smoke (silly buggers) some Pssi it up against the wall (also silly buggers) so owning a plane is the same thing to some degree, it's a vice that will simply cost. The more I look into owning my own plane the more I believe this. There's no such thing as a free lunch when done by the law. We have seen all too often the high rollers of society being caught out ( & some involved in aviation indirectly)purely 'cause a lot have made their money in perhaps dubious ways. If you own a plane & are loosing money then your as honest as they come !:)


CW

[notmyC150v2]

What about buying into a syndicate? I have been looking carefully at one in Brisbane (Brisbane Flying Group) that has some Grumman Tigers. Apparently you can do your training in them through the Flight Training Australia.

Does this option make more sense?

[poteroo]

Pilotdude

Suggest you ask the same question about running costs and shared ownership on www.recreationalflying.com.au - General Discussion.

There are more and more flying schools setting up under RAAus administration and so there are more investment opportunities. Probably the limiting factor is lack of qualified instructors at present.

happy days,

[lostpianoplayer]

Yeah, I do mean "A Gift of Wings". Fabulous book. I chanced upon the book as a broke busker, in Vancouver, living in my van, read the story about buying a plane, followed its (seemingly mad) advice to the letter, and was stunned to be the owner of an aeroplane within a month or so. I know, I know, hippy stuff, and I don't wanna hijack the thread, but it worked for me. Strongly recommend the book to all aviators...

And yes, a WELL RUN syndicate, with an ultra clear syndicate agreement, can be a really good way to do it. Just remember, more or less ignore what people say at the beginning - it's all fun & games till someone loses a hymen....or more to the point, feels someone else is getting $1.63 more than they are in value. No gentleman's agreements on this sort of stuff, is my recommendation. But yes, it makes huge sense, if the goals of the syndicatees are roughly similar - an aircraft really needs, I dunno, 200 - 400 hours a year to be economic, if economic is your aim, so it makes lots of sense to have a small group of like minded people to share the costs. Nothing like owning your OWN flying machine though, and personally, I don't care what it costs. It's just too cool. Although, yep, heartbreak and financial disasters can lurk too - my Spezio turned out to have a rotten spar which took me two years to sort out before I could even fly it, despite a careful pre-inspection - here Torres is bang on about careful pre-buy inspections by appropriately qualified people.

Also, don't forget to think hard about the extra risk of being an owner, being away from the scrutiny of the chief pilots of renting organisations. There's lots of reasons NOT to do it, but I still think breaking ground for the first time in your own aircraft is one of those lifetime experiences, and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Now, about paying for the fuel for the mad, mad, jet warbird I just bought.... :)

You might find quite a distinction between the opinions of the pro's, like Torres, and the amateurs, like me. I have 2000 hours, but have never earned a dollar for any of them. The pros tend to be - and NEED to be - less romantic in the way they look at it all, cos aviation businesses simply don't stay afloat on romance. And safety can get compromised too. The best way for the private owner probably does lie somewhere between hardheadedness & romance, but the middle way in aviation is difficult - the laws of physics are terribly unforgiving. And yeah, thinking about realistic mission profiles v pipe dreams is a good idea - I've observed that many people never fly a tenth of the missions they think they will, and don't fly a fraction of the hours they think they will either. It pays to be obsessed :) If you don't fly professionally, I mean. Flying professionally is a whole different ball of wax, and one I'm not qualified to comment on. And yep, I know it's the PROFESSIONAL pilot's rumour network, so this interloper is gonna bugger off now :)

Just before I go, do, I reckon, get yourself a flying machine if you can - I doubt you'll regret it, if you have an ounce of romance in ya - and of course, under all the technical av-talk, most us do...

[Chimbu chuckles]

Clearly I am not the only pilot on here who finds it remarkable that a thread on buying an aeroplane garners so much negativity.

It is one thing to caution a would be aeroplane owner to be cautious in his or her approach to the goal of aircraft ownership...but it simply blows me away that on a pilots BB anyone suggests the mere idea is stupid.

There are enough aircraft out there, from sport aircraft/vintage to production types from C152 to Citation 10, to enable ANYONE with the desire, to own an affordable aircraft...affordability simply varies between one person and another...I will never be able to afford the aircraft Dick Smith can afford. So what?...I have had at least as much fun in the aircraft I have been able to afford which includes a 1963 C185 and a 1970 Bonanza.

When I can no longer afford the Bonanza, or chose not to, I'll downsize to something else...but while I have a medical I will be an aircraft owner.

[Torres]

Chuck. There is a vast difference between your financial position and an aircraft buyer who suggests:

At the moment its looking like it'll be at least 12 months away, but if i do end up buying a house might try and get a larger mortgage and get the plane.

And from the questions asked I suggest there is an even greater difference between your level of aviation knowledge and flying experience and the level of aviation knowledge of the user who started this thread.

The level of knowledge required to own and maintain a private aircraft can not be gained through a few threads on PPRuNe. Nor should the family home be tied to the financial risks involved in aircraft ownership.

I've owned aircraft from C150 to C402, a number of yachts and I'm sure you are aware of my latest indulgence! :E I went into those investments fully informed of the potential costs and enjoyed every minute of those investments but never have they been a financial risk to my family homes.

Pilotdude. If you can fund the purchase of an aircraft totally independent of your family home, and afford to lose around $20,000 plus per year (in insurance, maintenance, hangarage, nav and landing fees, fuel etc) without depriving your family, go for it.

[Jabawocky]

So what's your latest indulgence Torres? Dont hide all the fun!

J:ok:

[VH-XXX]

A very wise CFI once told me that buying an aircraft is like a bacon and egg sandwich.

- The Chook is involved, but the pig is committed

Remember that!

[Clearedtoreenter]

Anyone got any evidence on the way used aircraft sales/values are going in Aus at the moment?

(I don't mean all those US imports either!)

[Flying Binghi]

Anyone got any evidence on the way used aircraft sales/values are going in Aus at the moment?

(I don't mean all those US imports either!)

Clearedtoreenter, no evidence but, I would of thought due to the 'improving' dollar (bad if your a farmer) used aircraft should be cheaper - new aircraft certainly are.

[Torres]

Purchasing an aircraft or yacht is really only the deposit. Then the real expense starts......... :{

Jaba, I offered you to come visit over Easter and you would have known! :}

[Capt Wally]

'XXX' top marks for recalling that.


CW

[tinpis]

Jaba tis a top toy.:ok:
One them toys old buggers looks silly sittin in when reflected in a shop window :\

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

So what's your latest indulgence Torres? Dont hide all the fun!

Jaba ya gotta stop dream'in of Bonzas and concentrate!

This was posted in the photos thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Woomera/Jaguar%20E%20Type/JagReg3.jpg

A yellow E-type, if my memory serves me correctly!

Dr :8

[Pinky the pilot]

Torres, Did'nt you post a piccy of your latest 'toy' somewhere not so long ago?:confused:

Rather have a Ferrari m'self. Red, of course!:ok:

As for buying an aircraft.....well, for some reason I'd get a Titan!:eek: But only if I could pay cash and if it were my own and not the banks!!

I have'nt won Tatts so it won't happen.:{

[flyitboy]

pheeewww lucky yr not a X dresser there Dr:8 Oh the reflections of life !:p


F

P.S. I used to own a 420G once, then I woke up one day & thought why am I supporting the Arabs?:ugh:

[Jabawocky]

Flying Binghi

Torres, your obviously not in a radar invorinement :E

THAT'S GOLD:ok::ok:

Laughed so hard I nearly pee'd myself!

Actually above 10,000 you might be where Torres lives!

Real excuse is illness in the family, not wanting to fly anywhere, I am blamed for spreading it too:ouch:

J

[Flying Binghi]

Sorry Jaba, I just removed that post - thought the mod may not like it as we're not in jetblast :)

[Desert Flower]

As for buying an aircraft.....well, for some reason I'd get a Titan!

I bags the R/H seat if & when you do! ;)

DF.

[Pinky the pilot]

I bags the R/H seat if & when you do!



I think that could be arranged!!:ok:

Just gotta win bloody Tatts first though!!:eek:

[9v-SKA]

Anyone wants to know how the J-160 handles can pm me... I have 30+hours on it. Flew it for my PPL training...
Now upgraded to the PA28-180... Taking PPL Exam tml... Wish me all the best!

[flyitboy]

hey 'Pinky' I wouldn't say the word "tatts" anywhere in here, you'll be shot at dawn by all the rif raf!:(


F

[ArcherCol]

Purchasing an aircraft or yacht is really only the deposit. Then the real expense starts......... :{

Torres

This may be true however flying is still "the most fun you can have with your pants on"

ArcherCol:)

[Islander Jock]

Found out yesterday that I'm up for a new O540 due to cracked crank case. Oh well, only a couple of hundred hours before TBO anyway. Paint work is a bit tatty so throw in a paint job as well. Don't expect much change out of 60 - 70 K.:{

If I had was using this money pit purely for private purposes it would be enough to make me consider doing harm to myself. As it is a part of a business operation though the costs are just part of doing business in aviation. You budget for it and have to expect it to happen at any time.

I've seen many people at the pvt GA arena almost go to the wall due to unexpected engines, props, airframe corrosion, ADs etc etc etc.

[airmuster]

Pilotdude

Do you have a business or a house rented elsewhere....... use the a/c for business purposes saves a little as you can claim some off the good ol tax man.
You live in Karratha....... there is a great LAME at YCAR who works on heaps of 150's, 172's etc that could help you with pre purchase if you go that way.

"Don't think about it... do it"......... my Grandfather used to say.... and he was real smart with finances.