Air Nelson ALPA pilots to strike

[Sqwark2000]

After the company got "confused" about the proposed work to rule industrial action that was planned, the ALPA pilot group upgraded the action to full labour withdrawal for half a day so as to not confuse the company about their intentions.

Strike day is March 25th.

Work to rule action still proposed for multiple days after March 25th

Looks like JH still got the magic

S2K

[pakeha-boy]

Sqwark..........so eloquently put mate.....love that stuff

bottom line, best of luck....

[Split Flap]

Go the boys.

Park em.

[hoggsnortrupert]

PARK IT:???

Below in the NEws Today:

Tuesday March 18, 08:40 PM
Air Nelson has plans to counter pilots' industrial action
Air Nelson says it has contingency plans in place to minimise planned industrial action by pilots next week.
Members of the New Zealand Air Line Pilots' Associations (NZALPA) have served notice to Air Nelson of a half-day withdrawal of labour on Tuesday, March 25, and has also served work to rule notices for March 27 to April 7 inclusive. "Air Nelson is working hard to ensure its services will remain unaffected over this period and at this stage is confident that the impact on passengers will be minimal," the company's general manager, John Hambleton, said tonight.
The industrial action had been well signalled by NZALPA and the airline had been working through contingency plans to ensure continuity of service to passengers.
"We are disappointed that NZALPA timed the initial action to impact on services at the end of the Easter break when a large number of passengers are travelling home," Mr Hambleton said.
He said the company believed the nature of pilots' current claims amounted in total to an increase in pilot labour costs of close to 30 percent.
"The pilots' roster claims intended to enhance time off would reduce their average duty hours (excluding training staff) to below the current 31 hours per week.
"That would require the company to employ in excess of 36 additional pilots, costing the company millions. We do not believe our passengers are willing to pay millions of dollars more for their airfares," Mr Hambleton said.
A spokesman for the pilots' association could not be contacted for comment.

A couple of thoughts come to mind:
IS this accurate reporting?
I Q the validity of below 31 hrs per week duty time???

Watching with interest::ok:

Q Why only a half day withdrawal of labour? I think thats a bit weak?

Chr's
H/Snort:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"Air Nelson is working hard to ensure its services will remain unaffected over this period and at this stage is confident that the impact on passengers will be minimal," the company's general manager, John Hambleton, said tonight."

How the hell can services remain unaffected (my bolding) if there are no pilots flying the aeroplanes? Whilst I am unfamiliar with the dynamics of this particular dispute, is it any wonder that people are having trouble with their management when they have the gall to print nonsence such as this!

[kiwilad]

Good luck to all members involved. If you stick together you will get a better deal.. Your work to rule will be more affective as the company does not get time to plan for the disruption. Looking at AIRNSN cancelled flights over the past weeks, he is running you guys well down on crew anyways, so working to rule will be even more crippling.

All the best, and as was shown by past Mt Cook/Air NZ management they don't care how much money they waste so long as they don't give in straight away. Crazy, and have heard over a dozen pilots recently handing in their notice with possibly up to another dozen to follow, management must have their heads well and firmly planted in the sand.

I wonder how long JH will last before being shifted after this mis-management cock-up.

:D:D:D

[Got the horn]

I believe there's a white 737 on standby for the 27th......

[yellowelly]

Park em up indeed !
The air nelson ( AKA Air New Zealand ) managing director seems to be an industrial dinosaur. If the average air nelson pilot works 31 hours a week and is home evry night ..where do I sign up ?
Seems like a spin to me..I say go for it boys..park em up and let the company feel how it is to operate an airline without pilots !
Its gonna be like an icecream shop with cones only and no icecream to fill them !

[yellowelly]

Wot?
that clapped out QC?
I'm amazed its still serviceable..mm yes "Air New Zealand..the pride of the Pacific.."

[pakeha-boy]

Air Nelson Pilots....do not cave in on this one....for your futures,your well being,and your principles....do not cave....easy to say,hard to do.....the reality of your situation is a problem we all face....

...the maggots in mgt will always try to beat you down......thats there job,and money is their bottom line...take it away and they have to listen.....be creative...fuel is expensive,writeups cost time,money,and delays.....disgruntled paxs are your friends.....

you cannot be a commercial pilot in this day and age and not have to go through this sagarso......you either make it happen or you become their (mgt)"bitch"....your choice....

Hamlbeton is a goon..the cost of doing buiness is to pay,not screw your pilots...his comment about making paxs pay millions $$$$ more for tickets is obtuse....we have been down this road before......the policy of ..."lets make mega-bucks at the cost of our employees " has to go....the pilots have a legitamite claim...mgt knows it.....and the typical kiwi corporate response is to clam -up and deny wrongdoing....make up some hypothetical claim we(the pilots) are farking the public.....and carry on....I SAY B.S.!!!!!! they know it,we know it/...time to pay.....sort of sillly really...who wins??? no one!

this business is so farrrrked up these days its a wonder it attracts anyone:ugh:...PB

[6080ft]

it will be interesting to see how the eagle negotiations go, which are due to start soon I believe.

Sounds like nsn have a bunch of no hopers in management.

[flysaucer1200]

Myturn, I do believe you have the wrong info regarding Pakeha-boy.
Pakeha-boy, Captains 320’s with plenty of other experience also, and plenty of informative and interesting posts

Your quote “dic%he%ds like you that costs everyone their jobs in the long run” is an interesting opinion!?


Your final quote “Air NSN - best of luck but keep it real” is also interesting. I speculate as to what, ’keep it real’ means?

I believe, from the three, Eagle, Air NSN and Mt Cook, Mt Cook have the highest remuneration, followed by Air NSN and lastly, Eagle. Being Air NSN are trying to improve conditions, I would assume the people on the lower rung, Eagle, would be apt to fancy an increase in their remuneration also.
And I have heard of possible collaborations between colleagues with the aim of improvement. I think they are waiting for the results or effects, of Air NSN.

So, yes entirely agree with 6080, will be interesting to see how Eagle concludes.

FS1200

[time4change]

Best of luck guys, :Love to see the look on bumbletons face that twit has relied on good will for far to long.

[mattyj]

The reality is that certain things cost lots of money in this business. New airframes around 30 mill or so Ive heard..maintainence cost are high..airways fees and airport charges are high for very little..so on. Now, as everyone can plainly see..Pilots are a valuable commodity and can move around to suit themselves. Management may think Pilots are all just a bunch of overrated, lazy blowhards (and in many cases they are correct) but they are a rising cost of doing business. Just shut up..pay up and pass on the costs. Simple

[distracted cockroach]

I don't know why some managers are stuck in this 1980s style of industrial relations. Don't they know that the only way forward for a company is if you take your workers with you? If your employees are against you, then you are not an effective manager, and will never achieve the results you could with "the troops" on-side.
Just because Air Nelson is in effect a monopoly, doesn't mean management can do whatever they want without consequence. To me the problem with managers within the Air NZ group is that they don't stick with a role long enough. They are in it for the short term, a big bonus for looking good, then onwards and upwards to the next biggest role. Then the next poor sap has to deal with the fallout.
Wonder how long before RF or one of the other big-wigs has a word with Mr H and tells him to pull his head in?
To the pilots, stick with it guys. Your unity is your strength, and if your demands are not unreasonable, then "right" is on your side.
Good luck.

[haughtney1]

myturn, you are simply talking out of your arse with regards to PB. Needless to say....your comments are ridiculously innaccurate..but I digress.

Guys and girls of Air NSN, this is your one chance to show unity to those who would have you suffer uncompetitive and derisory terms and conditions.
A word of advice from one who has been through this with 2 airlines..STICK TO YOUR PRINCIPLES.
Present a united front, have clear objectives..and above all else realize that mgmt need you MORE than you need them:ok:

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Pilot shortage in this country if not everywhere......why screw the boys (and the girls) and have them all leave for the sandpit etc. Pull your heads in managers.

All the best Air NS crews

[flyitboy]

Lots of support here for the flight crews taking this bold action. I only hope it doesn't backfire somehow, management in these ugly cases have looooooong memories! (WW3 pilots dispute comes to mind here in OZ) Still it takes 'risk' to fly in the first place as it taking risk now to continue to fly without even leaving the ground! I salute you brave guys & gals:)

Hypothetical here:

All airlines (any listed business obviously)are there to make money for their shareholders right? What if an airline was based purely on returning it's profits back to the real owners of the airline, it's workforce? I bet a penny to a pound that you would have flight crew & all the others that make up an airline crawling over broken glass to get a job there if money was funneld back into the business with say shares only going to the employees. No managers to force you to work more for less hrs just there to manage the day to running of the core business & getting paid a fair amount, their sole reason, to move pax at a fair price & SHARE the profits within:)

Now all we need is a Co. name & several million bucks, the name will be the hard one to achieve!


I did say Hypothetical but is it?

F

[Capt Wally]

hmmm not a bad idea 'Flyitboy' only you ought to read yr own posts concerning LAME's! ......."in a perfect world" you want what?,,,,,,tell 'em he's dreamin' !:bored:

Good luck to the strong ones at Air NSN:) Yr bro's are proud of you lot


CW

[puma pants]

Excelent move team. Don't budge, you're worth more than JH realises. Don't get distracted by management weasel words in the media and their plants on this forum.
You are too valuable to Air NZ for this to go on too long. Look at the cock up management made with the Mt Cook dispute. I don't think they'll have the stomach to go through that again. Just remember, the pilots stuck together there and won. You will too.

[cjam]

Thats right, remember the Cook work to rule days, it wasn't long ago and it will be very very fresh in the minds of all big brother management. They don't want that again and they are probably thinking that the Eagle negotiations will go the same way as yours go. The market favours you guys even more than it did the Cook guys, ask for what is fair and stick to it, work to rule is great, you just stop doing all the little things that you normally do "in order to get the job done" that the company doesn't pay you, or anyone else to do.
Suddenly they realise that you are actually valuable employees and that they are not actually the ones who generate the cashflow.
Go hard because inflation will eat away at whatever you get anyway and it will also give the Eagle boys something to aim for. Failing that, you can earn $125k ausi as a head long haul cabin crew for Qantas mainline if you need the cash.

[flyboy40]

I was negotiating with this guy in a previous life,he has delusions of adequiscy,bring on the real decision makers,and stay strong

[Dunnybudgee]

All just my own opinion of course but...

I was part of a successful Air Nelson strike in the late 1990's. It followed the loss of more than a dozen pilots over two years to Crossair & BMI regional, etc - who left to fly the same SF340's!

We got significantly more pay and some slight improvements to condx, because almost all of us (like 85% +) stood together. (From memory there were a couple who jumped ship mid strike and sc*bbed, but they "left" soon after.... :p).

Guys in my experience most airline executives screw pilots every chance they get, purely to line their own pockets from performance bonuses. IMHO having watched them up close in previous office roles, they are usually F.O.S. and they know it. Heres you chance to show them the real meaning of "market forces", (the term they love to pull out every time they bugger their own staff).

IMHO Kiwi pilots traditionally get screwed because Managers think;

A - No pilot leaves NZ so they have a "captive market" (recent years have shown otherwise). And,
B - they can milk the NZ aviation mentality (bred by replusive employemnt practices in GA) that pilots are; lucky to have a job, should work for free, fly overloaded garbage around with minimal training, etc blah blah blah.

As Eagle Motors traditionally took the kiddies and left overs (no offence intended) from GA, your current "manager" is probably "well aware" of such views...

I hope that the cuurent exodus from Pacific Blue and shortages at Joke* and accross the Tasman, might mean some crew losses from Air Nelson, adding weight to your cause... Another real option (guess you heard?) QF Link / Eastern, etc want Dash 8 crew, are hiring Kiwis and pay more...

So ignore their veiled threats and BS, they know they pay peanuts (by world stds) for first rate flight crew (and you guys are believe me I've been out in the "world" for many years and seen the STD's; Air Nelson tech crew are top notch), the market is in your favour, so its time to make em pay more! :ok:

[Capitaine72]

And every time you go back into negotiate ramp up the demands. Tell them conditions are changing out there daily and if they dont agree its only going to get worse.
They used to do it to you in reverse by ramping down the demands.:ok:
:D:D:D:D:=:D:D:D:D

[Swamp Donkey]

All the best for the Air NSN guys!

ANZ/Air Nelson management need to EMBRACE (current ANZ managment w**k word) the idea that pilots are not overpaid show ponies!!

I think even if this dispute is resolved today the crewing problems with Air NSN are only just beginning, any goodwill that existed is long gone and by the numbers of lifers (training captains...etc) that are leaving....they WILL be parking aircraft in the future.....

[puma pants]

Dunnybudgee, excelent post, right up to the bit calling J* joke*. The majority of "jokes" I have come across in Australian aviation are in QF not JQ.
If you leave those bits out of your post, you make your point eloquently and succinctly.
Anyway, how did the 12 hours off go for you Air NSN guys? Any meaningful reaction from JH? Nothing like slapping a few more strikes on him just to focus his attention.

[fly real fast]

So... What happened? Has jh become a little more approachable? When does ALPA meet with the so called powers that be at NSN again? How many more pilots have left/leaving? I heard at least half a dozen senior captains heading to Jetconnect? Do they have any training captains/instructors left? Has anyone NOT been called in on their standby days lately?

20 questions I know, but just interested.

Stick it up jh. He is an idiot.

[kiwilad]

They have had a half day of stike till lunchtime, and have been working to rule ever since. I think the working to rule, is no working on days off or whilst on leave. As I understand, crewing numbers are so tight that standbys are not enough to cover normal sickness levels, so are always using guys on their days off.
They have another day or half day of strike on the 4th April.

Stick together and you will achieve something. Personally the work to rule is better as they don't get two weeks to plan how to move passengers around the network.

All the best and stick at it.

[Indianzz]

Stick together and you will achieve something. Personally the work to rule is better as they don't get two weeks to plan how to move passengers around the network.

That's right Boys & Girls don't worry about the poor old fare paying SLF who actual pay your wages - at what ever level they may be.

Are your representatives so incompetent that the only way they can attempt to achieve an improvement in your T&C's is to piss off the people that actually do the paying??

What you don't seem to understand is that your Parent company enjoys a virtual monopoly on most of the routes that you fly and doesn't have much concern for the welfare of the passengers on those routes anyway.

As a regular customer I would not have been surprised to learn that you were always working to rule........

Anyway I've just increased my charge out rate to compensate and some of my clients are pilots, so in around about way for me, you're funding your own WTR.

Have fun.

[deadhead]

Anyway I've just increased my charge out rate to compensate and some of my clients are pilots, so in around about way for me, you're funding your own WTR.


ROTFPML!

You sound like a high class prostitute I used to know. :ok: If so, I hope all is forgiven after the minor incident with the broomstick handle.:\

Perhaps you have some suggestions as to courses of action/inaction?:confused:

Poor wind-up attempt. One out of 10.:suspect:

[Indianzz]

Sorry deadhead, I don't have any suggestions as to courses of action / inaction - don't know enough about the situation, but to add to sid - star's comment -

If your representatives cannot negotiate a successful result with your employer in todays employment market, without the need to piss off the paying customer, then perhaps you should consider giving them the chop and engaging some professional commercial negotiators.

I'm simply one of the many self employed SLF trying to earn a crust and in doing so have no alternative but to experience the uncertainity of air travel as it exists on regional routes these days and that uncertainity costs money.

No apology required for the broomstick by the way - occupational hazard when dealing with pilots.

Cheers

Indianzz

[deadhead]

Nice cum-from-behind comeback :ok:

Don't forget, that the employer's negotiators have also failed to negotiate an agreement with the workers (yet again with this employer, first it was the engineers etc, now it is the pilot group). The current General "Manager," a well-known industrial problem child, simply packs up his toys and goes away - all without leaving the room (!) - leaving no choice but to use other methods.

Don't worry, the same is about to befall mainline Air NZ SLF as well, so you'd better go right on ramping up your fees, luv. Just remember, it takes two to tango, of all people you should have known that!

If you are concerned about your income, you could try diversification...into the B&D :ouch: market. IMHO it could do with some help. :E

[400Rulz]

Indianzz,
It is not, nor has it ever been, the intention of pilots to "piss off" the travelling public. Believe it or not, we actually enjoy piloting you fullas around the country! What we don't like is being "broom-handled" by management who, because their performance bonus depends on reducing costs, are determined to stick it to the professionals who keep the aircraft in the air (read here pilots and engineers). The largest cost to any airline at the moment is not wages, but the price of Jet A1. If you really want to have a rant, get pi55ed of at OPEC. Oil only costs USD17.00 a barrel to get out of the ground, and further USD6-8 to refine. So why are we paying USD118 a barrel for Jet A1? - why, to pi55 of the passengers, of course....:oh:
The wages/salary bill is a fraction of the fuel/maintenance bill for an airline. Surely you don't want some 18yr old monkey as your pilot (paid peanuts, if you didn't get the allusion). We are the last line of defence between you and the ground, something that the public seem to remember everytime there is a poll about the most trusted profession (unlike lawyers, car salesmen or polititians). Next time you feel like flying somewhere, why not hire some young gun with a CPL in a single engine piston bug-smasher and see if you feel any safer:}.
You only have to look in the Aviation magazines to see that there is a shortage of aviation professionals in the world. An airline should remunerate their professionals in order to retain them, thus maintaining the standard of professionalism. To suggest otherwise is counter-productive to safety.
Rgds,
400R:=

[Split Flap]

Well said. :ok:

[Indianzz]

Hey believe it or not I'm on your side and support much of what you say.

I am however putting forward the customer's perspective because in the end it is we who do the paying.

I'm in no way (and I'm not backpedalling Deadhead!) arguing against your techinal professionalisim - indeed as SLF I never want to have to even think about the expertise or otherwise of the person doing the flying - on reputable airlines - it should be a given.

Also I'm not looking for a "cheap" deal. OPEC charge what they can for oil - what the market will and does pay - if Air NZ keep dropping fares in the face of increasing fuel costs and seek to make up the difference by screwing air crew - that's not my problem - its yours.

You may also be comforted to know that I have absolutely no confidence and or respect for current Air NZ management - don't know much about the management of the subsidaries but I guess it's pretty much the same.

I was actually responding to a comment by Kiwilad which had the clear implication that passengers were nothing but canon fodder and that pissing us off with delays etc caused by a work to rule will pressure your management to negotiate - I disagree because, as I noted previously, your management don't give a damn about passengers on the monopolised regional routes - we suck the kumura everytime we fly in all sorts of ways - trust me on this one.

If your representatives cant get a decent deal out management then don't fly - period - not for a day or so - stick it to them for a couple of weeks.

At least that way we all know where we stand and I bet that would get your bonus motivated executives off the backsides quicker than Deadhead's broomstick!!

Gotta go my late flight's just been called.......

Cheers

Indianzz

[puma pants]

Air NZ management have always been in la la land. Comes from being a protected monopoly. The Govt should never have bailed the incompetent management out after the Ansett Australia shambles. The airline should have been allowed to go under then be resurrected after the inevitable clean out.
Their age old pig-headed management style is rising to the surface again. It started with the swipe at the engineers, they followed that up with a go at the Mt Cook pilots, then the ground staff fiasco. Now it seems Air Nelson overall. :ugh:

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Indianzz

The problem with passengers is they are totally un aware of what is going on behind the scenes. All you want is to go on time and arrive at your destination.

Did you know that to leave on time the Air NSN pilots, even though they are not required to, get down the back and clean the cabin with the flight attendant? They do this because 20 mins is not enough time to taxi in, deplane, clean up, emplane and depart for only the FA cleans. However the company has set goals for them to depart on time so they do extra to achieve this.

Sometimes crews will cut a meal break short to achieve on time proformance.

There are hundreds of examples of crews going the extra mile to help the company achieve its goals and to get you to your destination on time. Non of which are recognised come negotiation time.

Apart from the total withdrawal of labour the rest of the industrial action is simply a refusal to work on days off and during annual leave. This is more desruptive than the strike because they do not have enough pilots to cover the roster as the company is relying on pilots coming in on their days off as they do not want to pay the extra salaries.

It is with regret that they have to disrupt travellers such as yourself but believe me it is for your (the travelling public's) good. They could have had a strike over Christmas or Easter but the incompetent negotiators, as you imply, deliberately planned strike action to be the least disruptive to the public.

One more thought.

If Air NZ continue down the path of using tax payer's dollars ( yes we all bailed this company out!) to undermine the biggest work force in this country then the flow on effect to other work sectors will see an even bigger brain drain than what we have now. Imagine Chinese flight crews getting paid half what the Kiwi's are getting to fly you. Wait a minute you don't need to imagine as they are already doing it to the FAs!

[rescue 1]

if Air NZ keep dropping fares in the face of increasing fuel costs and seek to make up the difference by screwing air crew - that's not my problem

You're right - it becomes everyone's problem. Rising fares reduces demand (there are already strong indications of a recession in New Zealand) this leads to reduced passenger loads, reduced services, reduced jobs. Was it not AirNZ that made redundant 50 pilots (??) during the last recession?

Airline economics is the real to rag to riches and back to rags story. The profit margin is about 1.5c/ASK. The trick is getting the balance and reaching a win-win for everyone - consumers AND staff.

[mattyj]

all that is beside the point!!
..we need to get pay rates right up..just like pay rates across the board in this country.
Lets say 50K start salary for a turbine FO minimum base rate. If you can't afford that as a company..put up your prices.

[remoak]

...and promptly go out of business.

What planet are you living on?

[mattyj]

..planet poor FO..pay rates have been stationary for 20 years here..thats a 3% pay cut per annum every year..what planet are you on..?

[puma pants]

I'm with you Matty. A bar worker can pull 50k+

[fly real fast]

34 Flights cancelled today...... Am interested to read from the incompetent GM john shambleton was quoted saying that pilots only work on average 31 hours per week..... That is absolute bullsh*t. I remember working my ass off as a f/o a few years ago. How would he come up with that number? I have never heard of so many pilots (and experienced pilots) throwing in the towel and buggering off to greener pastures. I feel he is turning Air Nelson into another Eagle Motors.( No disrespect to Eagle pilots)

Good work ALPA. Stay strong, stay united and you will get what you are asking..

[fly real fast]

As Spinner69 posted in another forum.

"The big man gets a 69 percent increase... while Air Nelson and Eagle waits..."

Come to the party Air Nelson...

[Cypher]

How did they manage to crew those 3 aircraft I saw today flying?...

The other 4 looked quite pretty parked up on the stand... :E

[Split Flap]

Aircraft flying = Fed pilots.

[Terbine]

Management and Fed pilots...... plus a couple of new F/Os under training not unionised yet.

[27/09]

When/How do the Fed pilots negotiate their contract? Do they just ride on the back of the ALPA pilots and take the hard fought gains that the ALPA pilots get?

[Split Flap]

Most of the time the company concerned just 'gives' the feds what ALPA has negotiated. Holidays act being a prime example in this case, didn't see the Federation in court helping out on that one, im sure the fed pilots will be happy to put their hands out for the settlement thou :yuk:

[remoak]

..planet poor FO..pay rates have been stationary for 20 years here..thats a 3% pay cut per annum every year..what planet are you on..?I'm on the planet where businesses have to survive in the competitive environments that they find themselves in.

Remember what happened when US pilots applied the same simplistic thinking that you have come up with? The (idiotic) unions went along with it, forced the airlines to dramatically raise salaries, and two years later many of those airlines were in Chapter 11 and thousands of those pilots were out on the streets. Subsequently, the unions negotiated dramatically lower salary packages, just to get some of their members back into employment. Many of the pilots that actually managed to retain their jobs, ended up on lower salaries than they had originally been on. You should try reading a little, most of it is probably still in the PPRuNe archives. While you are there, read up on the Aussie '89 strike and the Ansett NZ strike. Worked really well, they did... :rolleyes:

What a bar worker gets is irrelevant. Different industry with different dynamics. If you want to get paid what they get paid, go and get a job as a bar worker.

If you want to fly, there is (unfortunately) a rite of passage to be undergone, and that is low salaries in the early years. Airlines know how badly you want the job, and they exploit it.

It was only a short time ago that you were begging to get into an airline, and would probably have worked for food money. Now you have the job, you immediately start whining about the pay. Hey, you KNEW what the pay was before you joined up, right? And you were happy (even eager) to accept it.

Pay and conditions can be improved - just look beyond your shores - but it requires joined-up thinking, not just "gimme more money" rants.

I'm not saying any of this is good, by the way, but it is the way it is.

[kiwilad]

Remoak, I don't believe that money is the main issue. It is one of a number of issues. Many are just life style choices, which the company who are supposed to be about supporting Air New Zealanders as we are called, make it about money in the media as that is what gets the public on their side. Greedy pilots who they all think are earning 150k plus. The journos obviously aren't all that investigative these days as a quick look at a few rosters would quickly show a couple of quotes in the Air NSN media release as being a stretch at best to just plain lying.
I have looked at friends rosters at Air NSN, who cover sickness on a standby system. The Captains during a normal week (not holidays) are generally hardly ever rostered Standby, why because he has not got enough crew. So to keep planes in the air he gets people working on their days off and leave to cover.
Considering they are not asking for anything more than current CPI projections, what is Air NZ's problem? When fuel goes up, the fuel surcharge gets slapped straight on. But then JH only gets his bonus by cutting costs and where can he cut costs?? By bullying and beating his staff into submission. After Mt Cook two years ago, I hoped that Air NZ managment may have changed their Brieley style of management, but it just goes to show that they are generally reactive and when a situation comes up they just do what they always do. But hey how else would you treat a great bunch of Air New Zealanders.
JH is still spouting that he has not got a pilot numbers problem, who is he kidding, they are leaving in droves at the moment, and some of them are or were in Air NSN for life, but are sick of getting the raw deal everytime we negotiate.
At Mt Cook, the then manager told the negotiators, that he could pay what was being sought but did not want too, far enough, that is why we negotiate, in the same breath he said, although he had a mandate (limit on what he could give) he had basically an open cheque book to fight any action we may possibly take against the company. Go figure:ugh::ugh:

My ten cents worth. Air NSN fellow members, stay staunce and stay together.

Cheers

[puma pants]

Remoak, get your facts straight fella. 89 was more than a strike, but lets not go there. Ansett NZ in 99 was a LOCK OUT. A bloody big difference to a strike.
Rites of passage, blah blah; competitive environment, blah blah too.
Air Nelson can pay there pilots what they're worth, JH just doesn't want to.
When you see the "lifers" start to leave Air Nelson, you know that there's a problem

[rescue 1]

Can someone please quote exactly from the Air Nelson contract what the base salary is and the total annual salary (allowances etc), I assume that your on 6 weeks leave plus 11 public holidays (equates to approx 8 weeks annual leave), # of days off per month. That way we can better informed.

I suspect that the 31 hour weeks equate to 1612 duty hours per annum.

[remoak]

puma pants

I thought mattyj was a bit simple in his argument, but you are even simpler.

Ansett NZ - the endgame was a lockout, but it was a strike that started it. I remember it well, I was asked to come back from Europe to help out (which I didn't do, by the way).

An airline is like any other business, driven by supply and demand. The lesson of other, more competitive airline environments, is that if an airline is really desperate for pilots, salaries soar. I first went to Europe in the late '80s, and in the first year I was there, my salary went up by 35% - simply because it was the only way the airline could retain pilots.

You guys like to witter on about "pilots leaving in droves", but the reality is that if the NZ Link bosses were that concerned about pilot attrition, they would take steps to stem the flow. They aren't as stupid as you like to think they are, they know that without pilots they have no business, and if they have no business, they have no jobs.

What they are good at, is out-thinking and out-psyching the pilot work force. They seem to have you well under control.

And as for pilots working leave days and days off, well welcome to the real world, kiddies. That is absolutely standard in virtually every commuter airline in the western world.

[cjam]

You're right remoak, it is supply and demand. At the moment there is sufficient demand for pilots, and sufficiently limited supply, that they can ask for better employment conditions safe in the knowledge that if the company doesn't play ball, they can move on. In a couple of years things will be different again, seat changes will be slow, and then everyone at Nelson will be glad conditions were improved "back in '08".
It's not rocket science, take it while you can 'cause it is managements job to keep costs down and they won't improve your conditions out of the goodness of their hearts. You have to sqeeeeeeze it out of the stoney buggers when the opportunity arises.
It's just business. And don't get too scared about the company going broke, there are plenty of management and administrative positions that have a productivity rating of zero that they could axe, plenty of bonuses that could be reduced. I know of load controllers (not that they fall in that catagory) who take home more pay than the pilots they deliver the load sheet to, so with that in mind I don't think it would be the pilots salary that brings the company to its knees.

[Cypher]

6 weeks?!?!! Whatever....:yuk:

I think they're more on 19 days leave plus 11 stats..

Salary dependent on years of service. Think it starts at around $65k ish for a Capt and $40k for a F/O.. plus allowances...

[mattyj]

my (smallish ) company has a fuel bill amounting to between 100 to 500K per month (anecdotally and by multiplying one of the big fuel suppliers invoices by three to approximate the total fuel bill) Since AirNSN operates 10 times the aircraft with great big thirsty PW100s I assume that they would be paying in the order of several million dollars per month for fuel even with AirNZs massive discount for bulk orders in US dollars!

If you compare that with their wages bill the claims that pay rises for pilots are unaffordable is just an embarrassing joke.

While I'm at it..the big Koru needs to look seriously at they way it treats its staff at the big Airports (ramp, loaders, check in..) They are not working well as a team..seriously demoralised, and deserving of much more financial support.

[Hanz Blix]

"If you want to fly, there is (unfortunately) a rite of passage to be undergone"

Thinking like this is exactly why NZ aviation is till stuck in the stone age :ugh:

[Pool Boy]

Nope, no "rite of passage" in all the airlines in NZ that i have worked for over the years. Seen plenty of Pilots come from overseas and slot right in . I think if you are a ******** they will use some excuse to say "thanks, but no thanks". Just being polite really.

[27/09]

Most of the time the company concerned just 'gives' the feds what ALPA has negotiated. Holidays act being a prime example in this case, didn't see the Federation in court helping out on that one, im sure the fed pilots will be happy to put their hands out for the settlement

How do these guys turn up for work and look their fellow workers in the eye?

Must say something about their character.

[myturn]

You guys crack me up - legends in your own lunch box. Its very simple realy. Technology has advanced to the piont where airlines can teach a monkey to fly most of the metal beasts discussed on this forum and in this case the Q300. Why you all feel so important is beyond me. How about enjoying the fantastic lesiure activity you so patheticallly call a job and get on with life before these stupid antics ruin the party. By the way I am at the party but a little more realistic about it!

MT:D

[puma pants]

remoak..
the endgame was not the lock out, that was a bit of folly by some deluded individuals along the way. The final outcome was detemined by some greedy high profile NZ and Australian "businessmen" who failed to provide the working capital for the pefectly servicable airline they bought.
Nevertheless. Thank you for your words of wisdom from places elsewhere. The crew at Air Nelson will no doubt consider your somewhat removed views from the other side of the world. Not much of which has any bearing on the fight they have on their hands.

[Cypher]

Thats a pretty good windup Myturn....



BTW the Q300 doesn't have Autoland, so you might find it harder to teach said monkey to fly it or this case land it, in a semi reusable state..

[Split Flap]

I guess if monkeys could fly then next time you are paxing it wouldn't worry you in the slightest to see two monkeys in the flight deck as you board...

[pakeha-boy]

Quotw"""Remoak, I don't believe that money is the main issue. It is one of a number of issues. Many are just life style choices, which the company who are supposed to be about supporting Air New Zealanders as we are called"

kiwilad....your right...and I,m in my 30th year of flying for a living,(in kiwi and overseas)and I have yet been unable to get a lifestyle with money,or vice versa..... the closest Ive been able to get is now....working overseas and commuting back and forth to kiwi....gives me money to support my lifesyle in kiwi.....not everyones cuppa,but my choice...

Remoak...no worries mate...water off a ducks back....after these jokers have taken a few knocks down road in a few years....it will sink in, about the real nature of this industry....some of us have taken the knocks and are alittle more prepared to become slightly "militant" about these issues


myturn....ever heard the term......"the pot calling the kettle black"....

[pakeha-boy]

myturn Quote......."Why you all feel so important is beyond me. How about enjoying the fantastic lesiure activity you so patheticallly call a job and get on with life before these stupid antics ruin the party"

such a naughty boy is this myturn..must surely be a mgt f:mad:

[Bongo Bus Driver]

My Turn
Your wind up smells a bit fishy to me............sniff sniff.......Do I smell salmon?
;)

[myturn]

Gents - I apologise for using the term Monkey's as I dont really believe monkey's can fly a Q300. Not without Auto Land and all that flash gear! Really though I am not management or some sort of secret implant which is what anyone who disagree's on this forum must be. The piont is if you are going to have a fight , make it worth while and look at the ramifications. There is way to much crap about from jocks that dont know diddley and in the end it just becomes a mess. MT

[Stationair8]

myturn, its called experience and exposure unfortunately you cannot buy.

The saying about there are no old bold pilots is always good to keep in the back of ones mind.

[pakeha-boy]

myturn quote....."The piont is if you are going to have a fight , make it worth while and look at the ramifications."

at that is exactly the the whole point of this class.....unbeknown to you,many of us have been dealing with these issues for years,you have obviously not......nothing is cut and dry,and it never is....but for those of us with vested interests,...unlike yourself,...the stuggle always continues with the hope of finding common ground and fairness in getting results common to both/all parties...

you talk of "ramifications"....have you ever flown the "line"?....have you ever been on a negoiating committee?,have you ever been on an MEC?,have you ever represented a pilot group?............it seems to me,you are from the outside looking in,and have no idea of the daily "ramifications" of the industry we are in and trying to protect.....your turn :confused:

[distracted cockroach]

Too many comments from those outside the industry who are wannabe pilots.
Puma Pants, good summary of the Ansett NZ thing...we may have flown together.:eek:
To the Air Nelson guys...I don't know all your issues, but I do know how Air NZ managers work. Any good manager would not have allowed things to deteriorate to the current state of affairs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the way for a company to move forward is to have it's employees on side. This dispute is doing an incredible amount of harm to management/pilot relations. I only hope the company has enough sense to get rid of the manager concerned once this is settled (one way or another)...unlike Ansett NZ who kept the hatchet men on, and the discontent and animosity festered until the end.:ugh:
Good luck.
DC

[Split Flap]

Hey Myturn,

I guess you are happy to take the terms and conditions at Air Nelson, the 'party' as you call it, remember that these conditions you enjoy now were hard fought for by those that have gone before you. It took nasty industrial conditions like you are experiencing now in the past to get what little you have now.

[puma pants]

DC
I see Sep 1999 as your joining date. Coincidence, I think not. No doubt we did fly together.
You couldn't be more right about management that festers. JH is doing irreparable damage at Air Nelson. I used to fly there once, so this really annoys me to see a great wee airline being ruined by another transient manager.

[27/09]

Myturn

By the way I am at the party but a little more realistic about it!


Hmmmmm, at the party, giving the ALPA guys a hard time, conclusion, must be a Fed pilot.

Well I guess you won't be accepting any of the gains that the ALPA guys get then will you?

From what I have heard some of the things being asked for are very reasonable but JH and co are refusing to budge.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Well said 27/9

My turn.... tell me something if monkeys had been operating the Air National flight from Blenheim to CHCH, whilst that crazy cow with a knife was trying to take over, what do think the outcome would have been? One big fire ball!

If you were a proper pilot then you would know that when things are going wrong in a flight deck they go wrong very fast with potentially very bad outcomes. Thats when experience and skill comes in to play.

I believe not even a FED would talk such crap and since you are not management I can only conclude that you are nobody!

[remoak]

puma pants

Well, you say potato, I say, well, the other thing. Always several views of industrial action. The only relevant points to this conversation is a) did the Ansett pilots strike, and b) what was the outcome? The answers of course are yes, they did, and they all ended up out of work. Whatever the manouverings by management, if they hadn't gone on strike, they wouldn't have lost their jobs. The fact that the pilots walked right into a carefully prepared trap is neither here nor there - although it does demonstrate a remarkable lack or foresight which is still evident on this thread.

And, for your info, I live just north of Wellington, I only work overseas - I get back every six weeks for R&R. I won't tell you what the pay is, it would be too upsetting for you...;)

[burty]

The only relevant points to this conversation is a) did the Ansett pilots strike, and b) what was the outcome? The answers of course are yes, they did, and they all ended up out of work

How many of those pilots are still out of work now? How many of them are earning less than when they were with Ansett New Zealand/Qantas NZ? If the current business paradigm no longer supports the conditions and salary that you believe appropriate or that can be found elsewhere, is it your duty to make the concessions required to allow the current business model to continue working? I feel no particular urge to support a companies shareholders at my expense.

If you can't pay me enough to keep me reasonably happy and still make money for yourself than you have failed as a manager/business. Better that your business go under than I stay as your effective surf. Maybe you think I should be greatful for the job as well?

Ansett went under, life goes on. New opportunities arise for those with the motivation and wherewithal to take them on. Alternativley we could kowtow to management under the veiled threat that if we demand what we feel we are worth then the skys may fall on our head. Should this happen then I will look forward to the new opportunities that will come with a further evolution within the industry, knowing that at least I was paid what I felt was my due.

Out.

[deadhead]

Apples and oranges, remoak. Ansett was losing 2m/wk. Air Nelson is generating a little less than that on the plus side. That's why the Ansett pilots lost their jobs - because that outfit was a long way from being a going concern. This was poignantly shown when one KD, Ansett NZ's boss, was convicted of fraud and was last heard from selling fertilizer (not much different to what he was doing before he was convicted :E).

The only valid comparison between the two situations is that both KD and JH were, and are, quite certifiable. :rolleyes:

Air Nelson pilots struck to get their first collective in 1997, an agreement that led to the sacking, from on high by AirNZ, of the then General Manager, SW, a very reasonable guy :*.

Now, in 2008, they are striking to save it. :ok:

Maybe the top brass will sack the manager again. :D

Don't count on it, though. These people who call themselves Air NZ "managers," they thrive on industrial strife, they're just like pigs in ****. :yuk:

And that is the real problem.

:ugh:

[rescue 1]

These people who call themselves "managers," they thrive on industrial strife

I've read some unusual opinions from pprune contributors, but this one...:confused:

No one wants industrial action - pilots or management!

[deadhead]

You are correct - assuming that all parties are sane. I can assure you that JH would struggle to remain within those boundaries! Hence the "certifiable" comment :E

Try reading and understanding the entirety of a post before commenting - not just the bit that wets your nappy, son. :ok:

[distracted cockroach]

Remoak, you make comments about the Ansett NZ dispute but were not involved yourself apparently. If the pilots had not had 2 single day strikes, then perhaps they would not have been (illegally as it turns out) locked out. No lock-out then no loss of jobs is a stretch. You do know the company went on for nearly 2 years after the dispute? Also, I seriously doubt it all went as "carefully planned" by the company. The lockout produced a $20 000 effective pay cut for Captains and a similar amount proportionally for F/Os. The company still went bust. The strikes occurred because management refused to negotiate....just offered a pay cut and expected it to be taken.
I am proud of my colleagues who refused to lie down. We have all moved on. Most are now better off, but many of us devoted a large part of our lives to try and make Ansett NZ a success...that's why we don't easily let it go. All of the non-flying managers combined had less time with the company that I did at the time of the dispute. And there were many pilots who had been there longer than me. One of the managers involved said to someone "don't take it personally". That was the difference between us and them, and what made Ansett NZ such a great place to work up until "they" arrived. We did take it personally, and that was why the airline had such a great customer service reputation, and why Air NZ finally built airbridges and introduced food and drink on domestic flights, and generally dragged themselves out of the stone age.
There are certainly many lessons to be learned from our experience, and for sure there were a lot of mistakes made, but that doesn't mean that managers are always right and industrial action is always wrong. Sometimes it is all that is left to employees when they are afflicted by poor management tactics. Like I said earlier, a good managaer would never let things reach this stage.......look at what poor management cost Mt Cook during their recent dispute.

[Chocks Away]

I feel no particular urge to support a companies shareholders at my expense.
If you can't pay me enough to keep me reasonably happy and still make money for yourself then you have failed as a manager/business. (Burty)

:D:D:D

To the point and the core of many an airlines' problems, evident throughout this whole region.

[nike]

Good to see a few of the lads who've been kicking around these boards for a while try to right this whale.

Having gone through the 'Air NZ experience' before, stick to your guns boys. That time round, I think the big cheese came down to find out what all the noise was about, and on hearing it, couldn't figure what the problem was, not long after new contracts in the cubby-hole.

Those on top of the link pile ain't all that far up the koru pile, just gotta get past them to those who make the real decisions, unfortunately it seems a lot of noise needs to be made to upset the comms link.

Luck boys.



I won't tell you what the pay is, it would be too upsetting for you... lame man, lame.

[myturn]

Dude - you and your mates screwed it for everyone and you know that. The sooner you come to terms with that fact the better, no matter how you paint the picture you got it wrong at the expense of lots of families. The only thing the Air NSN guys can learn from the Ansett NZ ALPA stuff up is what not to do.

And Burty if thats how you think the world should work you have been seriously mislead. :=
MT

[deadhead]

So how should the world work, then? Please explain. Your silence on the topic is deafening.

I do agree on one thing though - NZALPA, and in particular the insane Industrial Director at the time of the Ansett NZ dispute, did **** it up...and yes, I'm talking about you, "Wild" WMcI - you stupid incompetent ****. You coudn't have fought your way out of a wet paper bag without spending 20k of the union's money. :mad: I was there, watching you spend it, naively thinking you knew what you were doing.

Having got that one off my chest, it still wouldn't have mattered what NZALPA did - Ansett was terminal long before it finally died. It just needed an excuse for those lame-brained yet somewhat intelligent managers to pin it on.

Through little fault of their own, the pilots provided exactly what the managers ordered.

[remoak]

burty

How many of those pilots are still out of work now? How many of them are earning less than when they were with Ansett New Zealand/Qantas NZ?

That is miles from the point. I know, from personal experience, that if you spend a few months out of work it can take years to recover the losses, and that doesn't even begin to address the stress and relationship issues. Just look at the baggage that distracted cockroach is still carrying...

If you can't pay me enough to keep me reasonably happy and still make money for yourself than you have failed as a manager/business. Better that your business go under than I stay as your effective surf. Maybe you think I should be greatful for the job as well?

That depends entirely on your expectations. If I'm a burger flipper at McDonalds and want to get paid 100K, does the fact that McDonalds fail to pay me that mean they have failed? The profits suggest otherwise. How you value your services, and how the market values them, are often two different things. Why should a business fail, just because you choose to over-value your services?

And hands up all those pilots who actually are grateful to have a job...

...the skys may fall on our head. Should this happen then I will look forward to the new opportunities that will come with a further evolution within the industry, knowing that at least I was paid what I felt was my due.

Very noble. Enjoy that momentary feeling of smugness as you enjoy the view from the dole queue...

But hey, you might get another job. At which point you will discover that the imaginary world where everyone is paid what they think they are worth is just that - imaginary (in NZ at any rate - not so much where I am).

deadhead

Ansett was losing 2m/wk. Air Nelson is generating a little less than that on the plus side. That's why the Ansett pilots lost their jobs - because that outfit was a long way from being a going concern.

Ah OK, so let me see... your employer is losing shedloads of money, so you and your pilot mates decide that now is a good time to strike. Right. Very smart. All they did was guarantee that Ansett NZ would fail.

I don't agree with your figures, in any case. Ansett was far from dead, before the strike. Struggling, certainly, but not dead -one decent investor or alliance would have saved it. And I don't believe for a minute that the Air Nelson is generating 2M a week profit. I doubt they even turn over 2M a week.

distracted cockroach

but that doesn't mean that managers are always right and industrial action is always wrong.

I absolutely agree. However, industrial relations history in NZ (and Oz) is littered with examples of unions who 1) completely failed to properly understand the big picture, and 2) rushed in with flawed strategies with no regard for the welfare of those they were supposed to be protecting in the first place. Unions in NZ just NEVER learn. In the case of Ansett NZ, it was completely the wrong time to strike - you boxed the management in and gave them few options. They certainly couldn't afford to pay you more when they were losing money, and it was incredibly foolish to push the issue in that situation. You could have chosen a dozen other strategies, but no, you chose the one that virtually guaranteed the failure of the company. You made it easy for those who wanted Ansett NZ gone - you gave them the perfect excuse.

Ansett NZ was a good airline that I completely supported, from flying them exclusively, to joining the Golden Wing club, to wanting to work for them. I had my chance, too, when the strike happened, but crossing picket lines isn't really my thing. To this day, I have no idea what the pilots and the union were thinking. Perhaps you were all distracted?

[pakeha-boy]

cockroach quote..."Remoak, you make comments about the Ansett NZ dispute but were not involved yourself apparently"

neither was I mate,my association came about with a phone call,from an Ansett HR,Offering me, on the phone....a direct entry Capt Position,(as I had a current CV,on file).......which I refused,and immediatlely called the Pilots MEC and informed them of such tactics.............my biggest issue with this sagarso,is the fact that I now fly with current company pilots,who took it upon themselves to entertain (my current company,s ) offer ....to bugger off downunder.and literally screw fellow Alpa pilots.....to fly the line as if nothing happened...yet with our current company issues(today) we are fighting for our existence and these very same jokers are calling foul....hypocrits!!!!:mad:

Remoak....would agree,they walked into a carefully laid trap,and that I believe becomes more apparent everyday.....illegal mgt doings....christ it happens everyday...

this week Aloha,skybus,ATA,went t@ts up and currently 'CHAMPION" (a 727 op) may also be on the chopping bloke....who,s to blame???....for Airlines on the brink,verge of financial stability.....survival is a 2 way street......

I have never advocated screwing mgt,they are and integral part of the plan for sure,....but they must be held accountable,...The Mt Cook pilots,have every right to do that...fair and equitable means just that!!

[remoak]

Sounds as though you and I got the same phone call, PB! ;)

Yep, ALPA and the Ansett pilots walked into that one with their eyes wide shut. The pilots were led like lambs to the slaughter, by union goons who were so breathtakingly naive that it beggars belief.

I had several friends in Ansett NZ at the time. You don't actually have to be on the picket line to understand what went on - the idea that you have to actually be an employee to understand what happened is complete nonsense, in fact you often get a more balanced view from outside.

The sad thing is that the pilots and ALPA didn't just screw themselves and the airline, they also screwed those of us who were hoping to join the company at some point.

Anyway, to get back on topic, hopefully the Air Nelson pilots will learn from history and be more successful (not holding my breath though).

[mattyj]

..at least the Ansett NZ management team have taken the positives from their experience and discarded the negatives and gone on to head a new, stronger, equitable happy organisation which runs like a well oiled machine staffed by a contented and happy team :ok:

[deadhead]

Remoak:

Ah OK, so let me see... your employer is losing shedloads of money, so you and your pilot mates decide that now is a good time to strike. Right. Very smart. All they did was guarantee that Ansett NZ would fail.


Um, I thought I made it clear that I agree with you on this point? "Wild" Wes convinced an ignorant NZALPA executive that his way was the only way, the fools - and yes, into the trap they went.

Ansett was far from dead, before the strike. Struggling, certainly, but not dead -one decent investor or alliance would have saved it.

But that requires a "decent investor or alliance" to actually come along and save it. To rely on ethereal investors to save the day is really good business practice :ugh:

And I don't believe for a minute that the Air Nelson is generating 2M a week profit. I doubt they even turn over 2M a week.


Didn't say that. :ugh: But let me put it another way. The figures I understand are that a shareholder requirement exists for a minimum 15% return on the investment of 350M. This equates to 52.5M P.A. It is known that the actual return is well in excess of that, but the actual figure is not being released, for obvious reasons. Let's say that the actual figure is 60M. That's slightly more than 1M/week. About what I meant to say. Sory for misleading you. And that is PROFIT, not total revenue. Someone who is an accountant and/or a bit closer to the action might like to correct me as I am always open to a little adjustment :\

[puma pants]

Remoak. A simplistic view. The collapse occurred because of a variety of circumstances. It is you who is being naive to imply that the two strike days caused the end of the airline. You show that you have little or no understanding of what went on. We weren't even asking for a pay rise for a start.
I am pleased for you that you enjoy a semi ex-pat lifestyle, I also thank you for not crossing the line in 1999. Please don't insult me with insinuation and a false impression of my circumstances. I can safely say that I am doing very well, but am able to do so from home. Seems I'm employable in NZ! I don't have to peddle my wares offshore, or wait for the phone call from an airline looking for sc*b labour. Cheap shot I know, but you asked for it; and, you've got all this wrong.
Air Nelson's situation cannot be compared to the Ansett dispute. It is a simple dispute over pay and conditions. The piolts are beating their heads against a brick wall of management that hasn't moved into the 21st century. They are taking limited and legitimate action to progress a negotiated settlement. The sky is not going to fall on their heads.

[pakeha-boy]

puma pants quote...."Seems I'm employable in NZ! I don't have to peddle my wares offshore, or wait for the phone call from an airline looking for sc*b labour. Cheap shot I know, but you asked for it;



mate...sort of take personal offence to that my self......I,m emloyable in kiwi myself,peddle my wares offshore because Ive previously flown in kiwi but its a 1 step fwd 2 steps back # for me,the phone calls I get for contract job offers are not looking for scab labour.....and nobody asked for it.

Just because the Ansett issue didnt involve others world wide(it actually did) doesnt mean to say its not the same issue(s) we dont all face...they were ALPA pilots ,which means their were ALPA rules and by-laws..many of which were not adheared to by ALPA National...

One thing is for sure....try not to make a good point,and youve made a few, to your argument by using a cheap shot(by your own admission)

[puma pants]

PB. Fair point. Just had the Grrrr face on with Remoak.

[6080ft]

so back to the original point of the thread.......
have the negotiations managed to progress since the strike action?

[remoak]

deadhead

Sorry, didn't realise we agreed on the first point!

But that requires a "decent investor or alliance" to actually come along and save it.

Sure - and that usually occurs at the last minute in these situations. Who knows what was going on behind the scenes. My point was that the end of Ansett NZ was not a foregone conclusion.

On the subject of money and numbers, we were discussing the negative side of the ledger (loss) and you mentioned Air Nelson being on the plus side (profit) to the tune of 2m/week. I have no idea what the actual figures are, or how the investment is structured, so I'll make no further comment on that.

puma pants

Simplistic? OK, let's talk simplistic:

The collapse occurred because of a variety of circumstances. It is you who is being naive to imply that the two strike days caused the end of the airline. You show that you have little or no understanding of what went on. We weren't even asking for a pay rise for a start.

It doesn't matter what you were asking for. The moment you withdrew your labour, you did two things - firstly, you pushed company even deeper into the red, possibly beyond the point of no return; and secondly, you made it clear to any potential investors or partners that you weren't interested in helping turn the airline around. Incredibly stupid.

Seems I'm employable in NZ! I don't have to peddle my wares offshore, or wait for the phone call from an airline looking for sc*b labour. Cheap shot I know, but you asked for it; and, you've got all this wrong.

Yes it was a very cheap shot, and totally uncalled for. As it happens, I'm also perfectly employable in NZ, but I choose to work offshore, where I can earn over five times what an Air Nelson skipper could ever hope to earn, have complete control of the Flight Ops department in my company, and enjoy the variety and challenges of flying in Europe - plus I get 3 weeks off in ever eight to relax in NZ. I wonder who really has the best deal...

The sky is not going to fall on their heads.

No doubt what you said about the Ansett pilots. Industrial action is a high-stakes game; you shouldn't play it if you can't afford to lose.

[27/09]

Remoak

In the case of Ansett NZ, it was completely the wrong time to strike - you boxed the management in and gave them few options. They certainly couldn't afford to pay you more when they were losing money, and it was incredibly foolish to push the issue in that situation. You could have chosen a dozen other strategies, but no, you chose the one that virtually guaranteed the failure of the company. You made it easy for those who wanted Ansett NZ gone - you gave them the perfect excuse.

Ansett NZ was a good airline that I completely supported, from flying them exclusively, to joining the Golden Wing club, to wanting to work for them. I had my chance, too, when the strike happened, but crossing picket lines isn't really my thing. To this day, I have no idea what the pilots and the union were thinking. Perhaps you were all distracted?

Yes, the actions might have been wrong for the time, however a look at history might show things in a slightly different light. I wasn't involved but I believe my information to be correct, Puma Pants may be able to confirm or dispute what I write here.

Ansett NZ came about when Ansett Australia took over Newmans Air under the open skies agreement between NZ and Oz.

As part of the expansion that took place at Ansett NZ and the introduction of the BAE 146, Ansett brought quite a few Australian pilots over to NZ and with these pilots came the higher salaries that were being paid in Oz. These pay rates flowed thru to the complete pilot group. Obviously Ansett management considered they could afford to pay these rates.

The BAE 146's were owned by Ansett Oz and leased to Ansett NZ. I was told that the lease rates were very high. There was no reason given why this was the case, but it was certainly a good way to syphon off any profits to the parent co.

On the face of things Ansett NZ struggled all along to make a profit. I think the aircraft lease rate were a major factor in Ansett's apparently poor performance, and the market here in New Zealand wasn't as easy as they first thought.

The parent company decides that it wants to divest itself of Ansett New Zealand, but first needs to make it look attractive to a buyer. This is where the trouble starts. They want the pilots to take a pay cut. The dispute wasn't about the pilots being greedy but about the company trying to dig itself out of a hole of its' own creation.

To compare Ansett to the Air Nelson dispute doesn't stack up.

[remoak]

27/09

Your synopsis may very well be correct, it sounds completely plausible to me and does sound pretty much as I thought the situation was at the time. High lease rates are a standard method of avoiding tax and showing a paper loss. Startups paying more than the going rate for pilots is also normal, I am having to pay my guys more in Europe for the same reason.

So let's say your summary is correct.

Knowing that your employer is looking for a way out, and that your jobs (and the company) may be at risk, what do you do?

A) Take the pain for a while, in order to make the company look attractive to a potential buyer and thus ensure your continued employment - and haggle about salaries when the new operation is profitable; or

B) Dig your toes in, take industrial action, and guarantee the failure of the company by walking straight into the trap prepared for you?

Answers on a postcard...

Of course Ansett NZ and Air Nelson are different cases, I have never said that they were the same thing. The same principles still apply though. I have no issue with Air Nelson pilots taking industrial action, hell, I hope they get what they want. I am simply pointing out that the lesson of history is that industrial disputes rarely have the outcome that the aggrieved workers desire. I only got into this debate in the first place to refute the somewhat naive assertions of mattyj and co, who think all salaries should just be increased by some random (but large) amount, but have absolutely no idea of the dynamics of the business they are in, or how such increases might affect their company and their industry. The lessons of history are that such courses of action generally kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Those who do not learn from history... etc.

[Capitaine72]

Ansett NZ never made a real profit the whole time it existed. It was propped up by Ansett Australia who was pumping millions into it each year as a tax break.
This thread has drifted away from th original. Lets get back to what is important. the Air Nelson industrial action. Go for it guys/girls. this may be your only chance while there is a skills shortage.
One thing is certain. The present skills shortage will change as has every other pilot employment cycle since WWII.
Make hay while the sun shines. Ask any cocky!!
C72

[puma pants]

Remoak, thanks for that, for a while there I thought we were comparing the size of our.... never mind!
You have a good grasp of matters commercial, that is why I can't accept your simplistic view of the Ansett debacle. The lease rates were OTT, the initial salarys were high but came into line after time (we were no better paid than Air NZ). The industrial action taken by the pilots was, no doubt PART of the reason for the eventual demise, but not THE reason. The industrial action taken by the company also played its part.
Air Nelson, at least we agree is different. These guys are not asking for the earth. They have been patient and long suffering. They are fortunate that at the moment, the industrial climate is in their favour. They are taking the positive steps in a legitimate way to get proper compensation for their services.
Their GM, JH is notorious for not giving in. He likes things his way. In this case, the pilots are doing the right thing in forcing his hand. The higher levels of management in Air NZ will not let this escalate to the extent of the Mt Cook action, which, by the way, the pilots won.
This is good and effective action by the pilots to achieve affordable and adequate T&Ms. This will not lead to the demise of an important part of Air NZs regional network. They are not advocating anything unrealistic.

[remoak]

OK then, let's agree that Air Nelson's pilots are being entirely reasonable in the face of an entrenched and intractable management, and fully deserve to win the day. I can drink to that!

Haven't met JH but those I know who have, echo your assessment. If he is anything like RI, who I did have several dealings with, he must be a... ummm... "difficult" individual.

Management in the NZ third level operations is a joke... but that is an entirely different thread!

[distracted cockroach]

Small note about Ansett NZ salaries...PP is correct in that we were never paid more than Air NZ pilots, but in the early days, we were covered by a National Award (remember those) that covered pilots of both Air NZ and Ansett NZ. There were never huge numbers of Australian pilots in Ansett NZ...another myth. There were a few who came over on secondment at startup and to assist with the 146 introduction, but most of the "Australians" were ex-pat kiwis who took the opportunity of a job here to come home.
Also, Ansett NZ pilots had to threaten, or actually strike to get every contract we negotiated...unfortunately we were "blessed" with the type of management that saw this as part of the normal bargaining process...a bit like some of the current Air NZ group managers...."dinosaur" springs to mind.
Whilst I have been criticised here as carrying "baggage" about the whole Ansett thing, perhaps I am, but it certainly hasn't stopped me getting on with my life. I have earned more since Ansett NZ went belly-up than I did in the 13 years I was there, but I still have fond memories of the people I worked with, and I hope them of me. Sure, some lessons were learned industrially and we got some VERY bad advice, but I don't think there are too many regrets. Perhaps the whole thing just sped up an inevitable process.
To the Air Nelson guys...don't let some of the comments here get you down. Your's is a totally different situation. Your company is making a profit (as most monopolies do) and the battle seems more about management ego than what is right or just.
Unity is always a strength. Good luck.

[mattyj]

..there is noone being naive on this thread (condescending perhaps)..Kaikoura is looking for a CPL to do Scenics, and a CCat to train, Wanganui has no CCat and guys waiting to train, there are several ads in every Av Mag out..including for a Citation Mustang pilot and I was talking to an Eag cappy yesterday who reckons they will struggle to crew their latest aircraft. PacBlue are in the same boat with their next aircraft yet entry level FOs are on average getting payed at or below the (govt stated) median wage.

What is so unrealistic about wanting to get payed a decent wage to be a pilot..just being able to start paying off training debts would be nice, especially when there are serious pilot shortages around!

[remoak]

You haven't been listening at all, have you?

And there is no shortage of CPL wannabes - the shortage is of experienced crews (mainly captains).

[mattyj]

..not to you buddy since you seem to want to rehash history and cant keep on the topic which is AirNSN and their strike which has precious little to do with Ansett NZ..in fact I dont think theyre after money, just more guaranteed weekends off..I could be wrong but I support them!

Oh and yes..there is a shortage of CPLs..just compare the numbers of training pilots now to those ten years ago (and don't include those in this country on ab initio schemes for overseas airlines)

[JohnnyK]

Yeah. So, whats the latest on the strike then? Any progress?Concessions?News?

[remoak]

You crack me up, mattyj. You don't know why the Air Nelson pilots are striking, but you support them anyway, presumably just because they are pilots and can therefore do no wrong (solidarity, brother!). You apparently can't understand the link between industrial action in one airline, and the history of industrial actions in other airlines. You are truly raising ignorance to the level of an art form.

You say that there is a shortage of CPLs... well, all the CPLs I know are all desperately trying to get into the "airlines", but not many seem to be getting the gig... are you working for an airline yet? Thought not! So I will stand by my original assertion...

[Big Beres]

Humm...... this post seems to be getting into a personal slanging match,
just remember guys/girls....

"United We Bargain and Divided We Beg"

BB

[mattyj]

Right, and if they are successful at AirNSN it might just drag up terms and conditions for some of the rest of us around the industry. I never had much time for ALPA before but at least they believe in the value of pilot qualifications!

[Charlie Horse]

I think everyone needs to be reminded that we are not asking for much at Air NSN. CPI increase over 3 years, a slight improvement to our weekends off i.e 6 more per year, with early finish on Friday, late start Monday. An increase in meal allowances to reflect increased food costs.

Management think that we are being outrageous in our claims, but Air NZ is happy to pay close to twice as much in meal and overnight allowances to other pilot and F/A groups, plus give them 2 more days off per month plus incentive pay. Why is it different for us, do we eat less? Do we not have families etc.

Our pay at Air NSN for the Q300 is reflective of standard Air NZ rates based on A/C type/weight. And we negotiated that last time around (what a battle that was!) What we want now is pretty simple I would of thought.

Can someone please explain to me why in one airline (Air NZ) management is happy to pay one pilot group $60 for a dinner allowance, and another only $22. Why one group gets 10 days off per month and another 8, one group gets incentive pay the other not (even when they regularly fly 80+ hours per month).

This is what we are striking for, not huge pay increases, but some parity in other areas, that the other pilot groups all ready have.

As an Air NSN pilot, I believe JH is making a HUGE mistake that will come back to haunt him.

Latest MEMO form JH

All expenses resulting from strike action to be passed on to the ALPA pilots, as he believes we are striking illegally.

One thing I can say is JH will not win this one, what he doesn't realise is that we remember his tactics from last time and we pretty much just laugh at all his MEMO's.

CH

[propaganda]

Charlie Horse,

I am not saying you're not unreasonable in your claim - it's just not a good comparison to relate to Air NZ mainline T&C's...it's a case in point though.

[27/09]

it's just not a good comparison to relate to Air NZ mainline T&C's.

Why not? Comparisons and relativity have to start somewhere

[cjam]

It's a great comparison. Air NZ want to have their cake and eat it too. When the turbo props are buzzing in and out of all the regional towns in NZ they enjoy having their brand visible on the tail yet when it comes to T&C , meal allowences etc they enjoy reminding crew that we are four completely seperate companies.
Why not have the same meal allowences paid to a dash crew as a jet crew? I'm pretty sure I eat the same amount now as when I was flying a dash.....it's just that it seems to stay with me longer.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Question:Why the different meal allowances and days off?

Answer: So when JH returns a higher profit to RF he gets a big pat on the back and probably a fat bonus all at the expense of his staff.

JH needs to be taught that he cannot achieve his targets without the support of his staff.

[Sqwark2000]

Heard a rumour that AirNSN pilots are backing off the "work to rule" action... I don't know the details but the work to rule action is more effective than pre-planned strikes.

Does this mean they are going to concentrate on friday strikes in lieu of work to rule action

S2K

[shallow gene pool]

Just to qualify your comments on 737 pay Ironman, a first year pilot earns just over $70k basic pay. The incentive pay is the thing that brings the cash up to the the figure you are talking about. By my calculations a pilot would have to do 86hrs to get to $100k, that's a pretty busy roster for a 737 driver. There is always going to a be a disparity between turboprop and jet drivers, I was a Mt Cook ALPA negotiator and ended up leaving after coming to the gutting realisation that Air NZ will never let turboprop T's & C's get anywhere near the Air NZ CEA. I joined Mt Cook with intentions of becoming a "lifer" but I firmly believe they (management) convinced me otherwise. Interestingly, nearly all of the other negotiators from the team I was in have since left Mt Cook as well. :ugh:
SGP

[Bongo Bus Driver]

No Sqwark they are not backing off the work to rule as more notices have been issued. OTP is starting to suffer I assume because air nsn cannot staff flights due to lack of pilots or more to the point an abundance of demoralised pilots no longer going the extra mile.

I do not know what else they have up their sleeve but this is not going away in a hurry.

The feds and individuals have rumoured to have agreed on their CEAs though and one can only imagine what it says...........

[deadhead]

The pilots are not demoralised; they just don't give a flying fcuk about the cost accountant's lies anymore.

[pakeha-boy]

quote deadhead"....The pilots are not demoralised; they just don't give a flying fcuk about the cost accountant's lies anymore"

deadhead,spot on mate...spot on.....

been there,done that....and currently back at it.....for the last 2+ yrs.....

"their" negotiating team sounds as if they have the pilots completely behind them....and being demoralised,doesnt even come into the picture....

YOU GET WHAT YOU NEGOTIATE!!....

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Demoralised is possibly the wrong word. The pilots are definitely unmotivated to go the extra mile for the company as they have on countless occasions before. They are however very motivated to continue industrial action in pursuit of a fair deal.

[pakeha-boy]

BONGO ..QUOTE"They are however very motivated to continue industrial action in pursuit of a far deal."

....now Bongo....thats the language people want to hear...."Fair and Equitable".....good choice of words cock!!

[Indianzz]

Hells bells reading this post sure makes a SLF uneasy about you guys "up the front".

I bet your parent company is making more money with these silly half day strikes etc than when you're operating normally.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again - your employer operates on MONOPOLY ROUTES. It must suit them fine to reduce the number of flights and cram all us "customers" into a ****ty 737.

I agree that you should be better paid and obviously there is a pilot shortage - if you don't like what's on offer with Air Nelson etc LEAVE!!

Or alternatively if you want to stay and fight - quit pissing around and STRIKE -but please make it a proper STRIKE.

Reading some of these posts makes me think that some of you actually believe that there is something special in being a "pilot" - there's not (Oh please no more tales of where would I be as SLF when something goes wrong and there wasn't a couple of super heros with big watches and small#### up front) - it's a fecking job like any other job.

You train for it and you do it presumably because that's what you like to do.

If you cant get the T&C's you want either accept what you can get, or go somewhere else - but whatever you do don't go into business - you wouldn't stand a chance.

Indianzz

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Dude these people are getting wound up because its there lively hood and its a job that they are very good at and passionate about. And yes when it all goes wrong you want these people up the front with their big watches and small whatevers because they know what needs to be done. I can't begin to think why somebody would post a comment so stupid.

Hope your post is a windup and you're not serious...

[deadhead]

I don't usually respond to windups, but couldn't resist this one, it's good!:D

Hells bells reading this post sure makes a SLF uneasy about you guys "up the front".


Hahaha! Yeah I'll remember that when once again all the SLF (and others) put us THIRD, behind only firefighters and nurses in the "most trusted profession" stakes.:cool:

I bet your parent company is making more money with these silly half day strikes etc than when you're operating normally.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again - your employer operates on MONOPOLY ROUTES. It must suit them fine to reduce the number of flights and cram all us "customers" into a ****ty 737.


Probably does. These strikes are not designed to make companies lose money, they are designed to cause maximum disruption to company infrastructure with minimum disruption to SLF. So you are worried about getting crammed into a ****ty 737? If that is the only thing you can complain about, then I'd say that these strike's aims are being met.:D

I agree that you should be better paid and obviously there is a pilot shortage - if you don't like what's on offer with Air Nelson etc LEAVE!!


O don't worry about that. They are leaving, even the so-called "lifers". But that is what the cost accountant wants them to do - that will lower his wages bill very nicely, thank you very much. Ah, knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Experience costs money, but the cost accountant doesn't want to pay. So his campaign to drive out the experienced captains appears to be working. As SLF, I'd be more concerned about ensuring the transition to a lower-experienced pilot workforce is a smooth one with acceptable risk - not about getting crammed into a 737.

Or alternatively if you want to stay and fight - quit pissing around and STRIKE -but please make it a proper STRIKE.


Um, wasn't there a 24 hour stoppage today? I'm away on a trip and the internet is a bit quiet on it...would you care to define for us please, what constitutes a "proper strike" in your estimation? I'm sure the Air Nelson negotiators could benefit from your pearls of wisdom.

Reading some of these posts makes me think that some of you actually believe that there is something special in being a "pilot" - there's not (Oh please no more tales of where would I be as SLF when something goes wrong and there wasn't a couple of super heros with big watches and small#### up front) - it's a fecking job like any other job.


Umm, anyone else aware of any "tales of where I would be as SLF when something goes wrong.....?" Nah, didn't think so. :{
BTW, the word is "fcuking".

If you cant get the T&C's you want either accept what you can get, or go somewhere else - but whatever you do don't go into business - you wouldn't stand a chance.

:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{
Why not? Love to hear your reasons, and so would everyone else on here.:rolleyes:

[Dunnybudgee]

Indianzz - wind up or not, your shortsighted puerile dribble reminds me of the BS propaganda once spoken by the IMHO mislabelled "management" of OZ regionals REX and QANTAS Link. (Pilots are a dime a dozen, you guys are lucky to have a job, pay for ratings and even interviews, blah blah blah.)

They are now trying to explain to their boards why their most expensive items of capital expenditure are parked with flights cancelled amid media frenzies. Why? Because many did what you (and their management - sic) suggested and LEFT (Funny, but it turns out Australasian airline pilots are generally very marketable). Buggering training departments and reducing overall experience and safety in the operation. Their so-called management are now very quiet indeed. :{ Oh such strategic vision! Such foresight! Only predicted for how long? Wheres my MBA? :rolleyes:

Many of us in Air Nelson in the late 1990's did leave, awake to the reality that such short sighted and selfish management styles would likely remain (as they apparently have). Most of us now drive large jets (often LHS and some CHK & TRN) for many times the pay (not to mention basic adult respect) we were doled out by Air NZ Link.

As for "don't go into business..." as a senior mgt Captain and a partner in a successful non aviation business, my view from watching "airline executives" up close, is that most are little more than con artists whose few skills consist of plagiarising and BSing their way through board meetings, just long enough to screw the balance sheet for their bonus. One or two I've met are also failed would be pilots...

But I admit IMHO they often do display a rare attribute; levels of ethics, morals or concern for those who generate their income below most carbon based life forms. IME most have little interest in the viability of "their" airline or the futures of its employees, and certainly no special abilities worth paying for. The terms used car salesman OR realtor come to mind... :yuk:

As for the size of your "implication" lets see you walk into an Air Nelson watering hole and assert your insightful and original opinions. After your remains are fished out of Whakatu estuary the pathologist can tell us how tiny your microscopic "appendage" really is... :}

[mattyj]

..I got my big watch round the back of the fish market in HongKong..it was gold but I bumped it the other day doing a preflight and now you can see the silver underneath :}:}

[Split Flap]

This seems appropriate given the current environment...

In my best Jack Nicholson voice...


Captain....
Captain: "You want answers?"
Chief Pilot: "I think we are entitled"
Captain: "You want answers!"
Chief Pilot: "I want the truth!"
Captain: "You can't handle the truth!!!" "We live in a world
that requires revenue. That revenue must be flown by people
with elite skills. Who's going to do it? You, Mr CEO? You
Mr. Finance? You, Ms. Human Resources? We have a
greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You scoff at
the line pilots and you curse our mediocre incentives. You have
that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know.
And my very existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to
you, drives REVENUE! You don't want to know the truth
because deep down in places you don't talk about at staff
meetings, you want me in that airplane. You NEED me in that airplane!!

We use words like working radar, good weather, on time departures,
airworthiness, upgrades, commuting, another round, medium-rare,
on-the-rocks, Cohiba. We use these words as the backbone of all
Professional Aviation. You use them as a punch line!
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to
people who rise and sleep under the very blanket of service I provide
and then question the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you
just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you
pick up a flight bag. Either way, I don't give a damm what you think
you're entitled to!"
Chief Pilot: "Did you expense the lap dancers?"
Captain: "I did the job I was hired to do."
Chief Pilot: "Did you expense the lap dancers?!"
Captain: "You're goddamn right I did!

:)

[Dunnybudgee]

Hot diggity - where dem lap dancers at? :D

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Quote........"now Bongo....thats the language people want to hear...."Fair and Equitable".....good choice of words cock!!"

PB
My apologies for making a spelling mistake. Unlike you I am not perfect but I am so glad you are here to point this out. I have edited my post just for you......COCK!!

Indianzz
Are you a Black Knight amounst sirs?

A full on strike is exactly what Air Nsn wants as it then becomes a war of attrition and they have deep pockets to dip into against pilots who will not be getting paid. Thus the long term approach.

Quote-"but whatever you do don't go into business - you wouldn't stand a chance."

Well I reckon running a business is way easier than being a pilot. If a business starts to go down all you do is get your lawyer to protect your assets then walk away leaving everyone else to suffer the consquences of your incompetence. If an aircraft goes down the pilots burn with everyone else.

Businesses can trot off to the third world and exploit child labour to produce inferior products knowing that a percentage of them will fail and need to be replaced. But the economics of those 12 year olds and their fifty cents a day salaries still means fat returns for corporate bodies. The economics of just one aircraft and its crew failing means no returns just bodies.

If you do not believe me then why don't you go show those pilots how to fly whilst they run your business. First person to die losses!!!!

[deadhead]

Bongo, I think PB was using the word "cock" in a complimentary sense :E

PB, sorry to hear of the problems at USAir/America West. I think the guys who voted to get out have failed to see the big picture - as is invariably the case when these things happen.

Anyone else know what went on with the Air Nelson strike on Friday? Did it go ahead? Any comments?:confused::confused:

[remoak]

Reading some of these posts makes me think that some of you actually believe that there is something special in being a "pilot" - there's not

Now answer me this. Who has the smaller ###, the pilots up the front, or the sad SLF that hang around in pilot forums but apparently hate pilots? Yes, there are some truly sad people hanging around this forum these days! :rolleyes:

[Indianzz]

Firstly my sincere apologies to those of you offended by my "big watch small whatzit" reference. I actually saw it as a joke in one of the other forums here - but it was indeed inappropriate.

As paying customers we are referred to in the industry as SLF but no offence taken.

Doesn't detract from my key point though.

If you guys are so smart - how come you're so poorly paid??

And remoak as one of the many that actually pay to fly I do have a right to be here and express an opinion - after all the purpose of the strike - such as it is - is to disrupt my schedule which in some strange way you believe will cause pressure on the company to agree to your demands - even though your actions are actually improving profitability!!

If me and a zillion other SLF didn't exist then there would be a lot less pilots in the world.

My last posting on the subject (I've got a life too!) but to clarify;

I dont hate pilots - I have the utmost respect for their skills - just as I have for many other professions.

I'm not in anyway associated with any aviation company or airline etc my interest here stems simply by having my self employed business actvities disrupted by these "clayton" strikes.

In another life I did have a pilots licence hence my general interest in these forums.

Finally Bongo Bus Driver most aviation companies that I have seen go bust were owned or managed by qualified pilots. Come to think of it some of the major airline accidents were flown by qualified pilots as well.....so what is your point.

Happy landings

Indianzz

[deadhead]

Firstly my sincere apologies to those of you offended by my "big watch small whatzit" reference. I actually saw it as a joke in one of the other forums here - but it was indeed inappropriate.

Accepted, thanks.

As paying customers we are referred to in the industry as SLF but no offence taken.

Yes it is a deprecating reference to the small number of SLF that cause trouble of some kind, and we do tend to tar "good" SLF with the same humorous brush - but not normally to their faces! This is an open forum of course, ostensibly for pilots, but the reality is that anyone may post here if they so choose. There is a forum here called "Passengers and SLF" where you can poke fun at us and not have to apologise:ok:just like we can poke fun at you here in like fashion. The operative word is "fun":ok:

If you guys are so smart - how come you're so poorly paid??

No-one said pilots are smart! You have made that one up all by yourself:eek:

is to disrupt my schedule which in some strange way you believe will cause pressure on the company to agree to your demands - even though your actions are actually improving profitability!!

Not so. You have also made that up, and by doing so have shown your complete ignorance of industrial relations dynamics. That isn't a crime in itself, but to pass yourself off as an expert in this area, which you are not, is. It is what this company is demanding that is the problem---not what the pilots are demanding (well, unless you believe pay rises of between 3 and 3.5% over 3 years are not reasonable, which I don't believe is an issue for you judging by your previous posts).

Once again, it is not about "causing pressure on a company to accede to one's demands" (hmmm, "the company" I think you may have just given yourself away):= it is to show that when the pilots (or engineers for that matter) are alienated by a cost accountant then this is what will happen.

As for improving profitability, well tell that to pilots who can make profitability go down the toilet by flying at lower than optimum altitudes and higher power settings - which I have no doubt will be happening. Tell it to pilots who are not accepting aircraft because there are too many maintenance writeups still outstanding because there are no engineers left to rectify them. You see, as you know, they, too have left/are leaving. They went through exactly the same thing the pilots are going through now. And here at mainline AirNZ there is about to be a massive attack on our jobs a la the BA scandal that is in progress now (see "Reporting Points" for the story there). When the cost accountant gets his next set of fuel bills he may blanch momentarily, but not that he will care, of course. It will take a while for it to sink in.

It always does with these people. Hence the strike action.

If me and a zillion other SLF didn't exist then there would be a lot less pilots in the world.

Fine by us, pal. Maybe we could actually get some leave once in a while.:ok:

My last posting on the subject (I've got a life too!)
It ought not be. :} you know we're harmless.:)

Finally Bongo Bus Driver most aviation companies that I have seen go bust were owned or managed by qualified pilots. Come to think of it some of the major airline accidents were flown by qualified pilots as well.....so what is your point.

You know damn well what his point is - but you are just trying to score your own point(s). You failed.:=

But you should keep trying - oh why don't you complain to Air New Zealand if you're so worked up about it - as well as bitching on here---you would gain some measure of respect, its what we have been doing for years (well, through the courts mainly):yuk:


Best of luck.

[Indianzz]

I know I said I wouldn't be back on this topic but your response is constructive and (almost) balanced and I have appreciated our exchanges here.

I agree a sense of humour should be maintained in most circumstances but it is easy to be misunderstood in forums such as this.

You are correct as regards the pay - for the most part I'm in agreement with you (I don't have all the details) - my argument is the course of action being followed, which I don't believe will achieve your remuneration objectives.

"The Company" is simply a turn of pharse - I am are harsh critic of Air NZ and have made my views known to Mr Fyfe in writing on a number of occassions. Where ever possible internationally I fly on other carriers as a way of voting with my feet - domestically, regionally I have no choice, which is why I think the strike action is ineffective - pilots are simply cutting their own miserable remuneration - they don't understand (and I've said this before) "the company" doesn't give a monkey's about the paying pax on regional routes - we get the short end of the (broom)stick whether Air Nelson is flying or not.

I'm sure you would miss us SLF if we we not around!!

As regards Bongo Bus Driver's post as I have previously noted I find it tiresome and POINTLESS in pilots reciting the "without us you die" mantra.

Finally with the cost of fuel so high (and likely to increase not decrease) we are entering a completely different operating environment (commercially) and I'm sure that this will lead to a major realignment / restructuring within the aviation / airline industry worldwide - the current model cannot be sustained - it is based on a much lower input costs.

Clearly the answer is not to cut the wages of pilots (unless pilots allow this of course) but the reality is fast approaching that soon less and less people will be able to afford to fly - and that must concern both pilots and management / shareholders.

Again thanks for your comments - I have appreciated them

Fly safe

Indianzz

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Indianzz
I will expand on my point if you cannot understand it.

You made the comment that pilots should not go into business because they would not stand a chance. I then drew some comparisions between flying and business.

Firstly a business can put protections in place to limit the liability on the directors/owners/shareholders in the event that the business fails. I use the example of a property developer who goes bust owning various contractors vast sums of money. The property developer tends to keep their mansion in Remuera whilst the poor old builders, electricians and plumbers who are left out of pocket struggling to pay the mortage.

However when a pilot crashes having made poor descisions they suffer the same consequences as those SLF who rely on them to make the right descisions. Unlike the property developer who can run away.

You write
"Come to think of it some of the major airline accidents were flown by qualified pilots as well.....so what is your point."

You are correct aircraft do crash and it is usually a result of human error. If you were to study these crashes (and believe me we do) there is a high degree of unprofessional behavior such as non compliance to proceedures.
But this is not just limited to pilots. Engineers and management are also to blame. Rules and proceedures are there to protect everyone but it takes a professional attitude to follow them.

So why does Air NZ not have very many crashes? Because my friend they employ professionals who understand the environment they operate in and constantly strive to manage its risks.

My point. Professionals cost money but like Air NZ you want the best but do not want to pay for it. You want pilots who will make the right decisions and not run away when things get tough.

From one of your previous posts
"I'm in no way (and I'm not backpedalling Deadhead!) arguing against your techinal professionalism - indeed as SLF I never want to have to even think about the expertise or otherwise of the person doing the flying - on reputable airlines - it should be a given."

But then you state
"Reading some of these posts makes me think that some of you actually believe that there is something special in being a "pilot" - there's not (Oh please no more tales of where would I be as SLF when something goes wrong and there wasn't a couple of super heros with big watches and small#### up front) - it's a fecking job like any other job."

Like the Air Nsn management you expect skill and expertise from their staff but do not want to acknowledge it and more to the point pay for it.

This is exactly the attitude that all staff at Air Nz are fighting. Being a pilot holds a greater responsibility than that of most other professions thus it requiries high range of skills. Attaining these skills come at a great cost to the pilot. It is only fair that they are compensated fairly for these. We are not talking about Doctors wanting 40% over three years here. They are asking for CPI increases and an equalisation of meal allowances.

Here is another little gem of yours.
"Also I'm not looking for a "cheap" deal. OPEC charge what they can for oil - what the market will and does pay - if Air NZ keep dropping fares in the face of increasing fuel costs and seek to make up the difference by screwing air crew - that's not my problem - its yours."

Interesting how JH shares your view. He says that the public will not wear the rising cost of fuel and expects his staff to. Well here's a news flash. They wont and who would given that everyone is suffering the rising cost of living? Therefore it is your problem cos you need air travel to conduct your business and there is only one option in this country.

[Artisan]

I think Indianzz meant; Big watches and small salaries !

[remoak]

And remoak as one of the many that actually pay to fly I do have a right to be here and express an opinion

Well, if you say so, although the name of the forum would suggest otherwise. More to the point, if you are going to come here and insult us, expect a similar response.

after all the purpose of the strike - such as it is - is to disrupt my schedule which in some strange way you believe will cause pressure on the company to agree to your demands

No, it has nothing to do with disrupting your schedule. It more is to do with causing a problem for the management of the company. Managers who fail to contain or resolve strikes do not generally last long. Put pressure on them, and you stand a better chance of getting what you want. Or of talking yourself out of a job...As someone else said, you clearly have no idea of the dynamics of industrial action.

If me and a zillion other SLF didn't exist then there would be a lot less pilots in the world.

Surely one of the most facile statements on PPRuNe for a while. Extending your "logic", if people didn't exist, you wouldn't need any people. However, people want to travel in increasing numbers and frequency, so the need for pilots isn't going away any time soon.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

"As regards Bongo Bus Driver's post as I have previously noted I find it tiresome and POINTLESS in pilots reciting the "without us you die" mantra"

Check out Indianzz's quote above. Isn't he saying the same thing from the other perpective below?

"If me and a zillion other SLF didn't exist then there would be a lot less pilots in the world."

So Indianzz you are sick of pilots pointing out their worth to passengers but are more than ready to use the reverse arguement to point out passengers worth to pilots. This is the same twisted logic Air Nsn is using to stalemate these negotiations.

[pakeha-boy]

Quote..."Finally Bongo Bus Driver most aviation companies that I have seen go bust were owned or managed by qualified pilots. Come to think of it some of the major airline accidents were flown by qualified pilots as well.....so what is your point"

Name them???...qualified pilots...wow!!!...qualify, what is a qualified pilot....in fact qualify for me what is a pruedent test for airline mgt...not all rugby players make good or great coaches....not all(most if not all) pilots make good airline owners or managers....speculation at best....being a pilot and running an airline...my queston....What is your point?

Name several "Major" Airlines(your words) that were owned and managed by pilots....and before you answer look up the meaning of "Major" airlines before you answer...Cali,Delta????..think hard before you answer this one....

[threecombs]

Hey Indianzz!

Been reading your dribble for a couple of weeks now.

I cant help but get the feeling you came home from work early one day, only to find a pilot haunched over your wife, while talking to your mother on the phone.

Bugger off , this site is for pilots, not insurance salesman!!!

[Spinner69]

Are we really asking for that much or anything that we that we dont think we are worth. Lets put in perspective.I learnt today that the loaders at aa start on $18.50 hour. If you have a forkhoist licence you start on $21.00 hour. Lets say conservatively that they do a 40h week. It puts them on $43,680 a year. Plus the opportunity to earn double time over 8 hours a day. Plus staff travel. Go figure..........

[hot tuna]

Tell JH, but then again he probably already knows and doesn't care.

[fly real fast]

Heard that Air Nelson pilots striking again on 8th and 9th May, each for half days. Why are they striking for only half days and not full days? Is ALPA corresponding with the company in any way or is it still going no where?

[mattyj]

Is there any end to this in sight? Its starting to wear a bit thin when you get vectored out to Bondi cause someone in a Dash wants to do an ILS via the full star at peak time when its CAVOK

[kev2002]

I know. Isn't it great!!. Hopefully the other GM's ring JH asking him to pay for the extra fuel their planes are burning because of his pig headedness

[conflict alert]

given up offering direct now, some of you do some of you don't, can't plan anymore so flight plan route it is..... be sure to let us know when its all over

[Sqwark2000]

Noticed yesterday and today that Dashes are going for visuals and not the full STAR/Approach, has something changed or are these Fed/Management pilots trying to counter the rumoured extra 15 tonne/ day of fuel and the "falling like a brick" OTP figures?

Whats the ALPA v Fed ratio at NSN??

S2K

[Bongo Bus Driver]

If the Dash is stuffing up the sequene then you ATC guys and girls can put them into a hold for 10mins. I am sure they wont mind. :ok:

[Sqwark2000]

If the Dash is stuffing up the sequene then you ATC guys and girls can put them into a hold for 10mins. I am sure they wont mind.

Heard a NSN-CHC Dash inbound on a gin clear day, it was told it was No.1 in the sequence but did they want to do the full star and ILS to which they replied yes.

Control then said.... " right, enter the YW hold, now no. 6 in the sequence"

Apparantly did a couple of laps and the normally 40min flight was over an hour. Had managment on board as well and there was some filthy looks being directed at the flight deck.

[deadhead]

Had managment (sic) on board as well and there was some filthy looks being directed at the flight deck.

If management were on board I'm sure there would have been filthy looks being directed FROM the flight deck as well. :cool:

Keep up the fine work troops - those of us about to start our negotiations look on with interest & support. :ok:

Your manager seems to be providing you with a lot of incentive to keep on blowing out your costs - sounds like a perfect candidate for manager promotion within the Air NZ group. :{

See if his next move will be to threaten layoffs due to the spiralling costs.

Predictable, entirely predictable. Just remember, that sort of predictability usually works in our favour. Learn to read these turkeys like a book and you will ace this. Patience will win the day, although ultimately there are never any true winners - only minimised losses. But that's OK. It's good ol' AirNZ! They haven't changed in the 29 years I've been here:E

[Split Flap]

Keep up the good work chaps, all the boys are behind you.
I love getting stuck following you guys!
Pretty soon every ALPA pilot in the group will be in negotiations and it's going to be a ****fight of the greatest magnitude, going to be awsome to watch :ok:

[weido_salt]

Hi Guys

"Air Nelson ALPA pilots to strike (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4182795#post4182795) "??!! You can not be serious!!

Please forgive me if I have this all wrong, as I have not gone though all the posts. If any pilots are intending to down tools, I really think it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas and possibly in need of some sort of professional help.

If things carry on as they have of late, with regards to the price of oil, there are going to be mass redundancies in the industry. Unless NZ is a member of OPEC, things will be different.

If any persons are foolish enough to take industrial action, then a list of "volunteers" to settle for early retirement will be handed to the employers on a plate.

[always inverted]

You cant be serious... Are you saying everyone shoud just lay down and take the royal shafting, maybe you should read all the posts. Do some homework, you will see that Air Nsn and indeed the other link ops are not getting paid anywhere near what you would anywhere else in the developed world.
Oil cost does have an effect yes but when you are talking about around 4 % incerase in pay on the 4+% inflation and the cost of living going up even more it almost means a pay drop... What peformance would you expect from your staff if you said that they were gtting a paycut and keep smiling and do the same job.

JH needs a firm boot in the a@$ from above for costing the company more than what the salary increase would have over the total term, in just the last few weeks of the guys and girls working to rule. Now that nakes perfect business sense doesn't it.

Any company that takes this long to sort out a bloody contract surely needs to have their management reviewed as this seems like gross incompetance. Normally if you walk into a review once a year (in the real business world) you TALK, in minimal time you are back to work and generaly happy, minimal losses and happy staff.
Surely the people at the top at Air NZ cant be happy with the bad publicity and otp and blatent throwing away of profit for the sake of 1% in pay difference.

[mattyj]

Always inverted, it sounds like you might be just the man to lead the upcoming negotiations for your pilot group..I should think that the talked about "sunglasses allowance" may be just what the doctor ordered..
if only our accountant was so generous:yuk:

[Chocks Away]

Yes, sadly management may do that but it is not all dire, as you suggest.
Some US airlines have gone under due to their business model being put to test by the increased overheads (oil)... others thrive.
Look into it abit closer, as unspecific loose language such as "1000's of redundancies" is unclarified and incorrect and serves no purpose but to alarm people... or was that your motive?:rolleyes:
Tech crew simply move to where conditions are better or where their trained skills are better appreciated and paid for.
Many of the crew that have been "furloughed"/laid off/voluntary retirement have been absorbed elsewhere... ie Oasis, HKG Airlines (more to this story) and Silverjet are examples.

[Fark'n'ell]

The commercial aviation industry is entering a recession, airline management will use this to their advantage and threaten lay off's.
It's becoming nasty in Euroland and the States.....with 1000's of redundancies.
If that is true Sid why are the airlines screaming out for more pilots in the not too distant future

[6080ft]

a result must happen soon. there must be tonnes of extra fuel being burnt. I for one am sick of getting stuck behind a dash on the sid!

[CTOT ON]

Guys, if you are fed (no pun intended) up with being slowed down by the dash, my advice is complain like hell. JH needs all the encouragement he can get to settle this.

All I can say is, 90% of Air Nelsons pilots must be getting pretty sharp at approaches and SID's.

[remoak]

sid-star

It's becoming nasty in Euroland and the States.....with 1000's of redundancies.

Maybe in the US, but not in Europe. Not yet, anyway.

[always inverted]

Herd there is a withdrawal of labour shortly for 2 days... Anyone confirm ? Does anyone know whats happening with the crew that were stood down the other week as there does not seem to be any reason that they were, unless you count the bit about one of them being on the neg team. Is JH trying to slowly splip them all up so no one is there to neg the contract ???:mad:
JH is a clown, airnz should sack him for a massive waste of revenue in these work to rule weeks, how many weeks now ? 4? At about $27,000 per day.:ugh::=
Does anyone think that Mr Fyfe knows the true extent of the problen in NSN or does he have the glazed up version from knobhead. When will he and his troops come in and sort JH's mess out for the sake of the company ?

[aluminium hail]

I've heard that Fyfe gets some info about negotiations through back channels but largely he is just fed (still no puns intended) bull s:mad:t from JH. Its hard to believe they don't realise what is happening to morale through the whole company, not just pilots. There could be some PG cases going to court in the future. Very sad.

[always inverted]

Valid point alluminium hail, how far would it get if you lodged a pg on your gm for making your working day very stressfull and making you feel worthless ? Would that be classed as a legitimate pg claim? I would hope not for his sake...
Yes I for one am sick of being slowed up in excess of 80nm from akl AND vectored 40 degrees off track for sequencing of the arrivals and the only planes comming from the same direction as you are a dash and a 737 which was #1, total bulls@%t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get the others in first and let the dash peoples take a bit longer, it would probably work in their favour anyway.

[kiwilad]

Quote:
Yes I for one am sick of being slowed up in excess of 80nm from akl AND vectored 40 degrees off track for sequencing of the arrivals and the only planes comming from the same direction as you are a dash and a 737 which was #1, total bulls@%t !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That happens all the time, must be a jet driver and not used to it. We get slowed down all the time to let the jet past, then AKL Approach ask for best speed then ask us to slow down again. Not sure why everyone can't go flatout and just sort out by joining final as required to ensure separation, or vis sep on VIS APPR days.

Back to the topic.
I think they are having rolling stoppages till 9 or 10am and a full day off on the 18th, with all part days still having the full SID's and Arrivals.
Their boss is still believing his own hype. I wonder why no journalist ever actually asks him to elaborate on his claims?!? But I guess he wouldn't hesitate in feeding them the same BS that he is feeding Air NZ management.

Then there is the ole chestnut that Air NSN is a separate company and can make their own mind up. So long as JH doesn't break his mandate.

Seems like when Rob gets involved he can sort of be reasonable, look at the Air NZ engineers. Wonder why Rob is not involved??

Supposedly parking up two aircraft, so I guess that will be the one parked up on the WLG freight apron and in AKL by airwork most days due lack of crew.

Good luck to all the Air Nelson pilots. We will be starting our negotiations soon so will be interesting times for the air nz group, as the other pilot negotiations aren't progressing well either.

[Bombay]

Do you think JH is mindful about what ultimately happened to O'Regan?

[Split Flap]

I think JH is getting his understudy to do the negotiating for him so that if questions are asked then he has got a fall guy....:sad:

I think Fife has made it clear in his messages to staff on his position. CPI, and you will be lucky to get that!
He has now frozen his salary in an attempt to gather some support from the troops. However if his salary remained frozen, his increase last year would cover CPI increases for the next 21 years! Good to see we are all in this together. :yuk:

[fourholes]

:yuk: I think these management types have to get their heads out. CPI means nothing when you are on 400k or 1.6m for that matter. trying to raise 3 kids and still pay the mortgage is really a struggle for me now thanks to rising costs, CPI only tells part of the story, meanwhile the execs are still like pigs at the trough, pausing only long enough to say they wont take an offensively high pay rise this year..........my heart bleeds. Good luck Air NSN, I think your mainline cousins will be joining you soon:mad:

[mattyj]

Just a hypothetical question:
Of the two schools of thought..that its difficult times at the moment and we should be glad of our jobs and not cause industrial unrest which might damage the firm..

..and that aviation is a business based on the assumption of cheap labour who are willing to self fund most of their training and then are willing to take comparatively low wages for the pleasure of working in the industry

Or..is now the time when aviation needs to take a good long look at itself and if it can't afford to make decent cost of living increases and provide its staff with a reasonable standard of lifestyle while employed by the company, then it bloodywell shouldn't be in business and the staff are entitled to take any action required.

Honestly Hamblehead..just give them the weekends off etc and let everyone go back to work!!

[Split Flap]

After 12 years in the industry if it's one thing I have learned, it is never a good time to ask for a payrise, ever!
The inside word is that the company is not going to give an inch. :sad:

[always inverted]

How many people use their sick leave ?? They guys at nsn could just sign off on the current agreement and use the odd sick day, hell we get enough of them. The sick days are given in the quantities that they are so that we take a sick day when we start feeling unwell. There is more than way to skin a cat...
If a little sickie note is only required after a couple days then it should be no problem. ;)

What I'm trying to slowly get at is... how many of you all have felt a bit sheyt and still gone to work and thought it'll be okay and I dont want to let the team down...and how many of these happen to coincide with the start of or the end of a weekend. If people took them when they were feeling a bit sinusy the co would crap themselves.
Surely it is the "good will" of the crews that make us not take our quota of sick days each year.
Did you hear that JH... good will...:eek:

[aluminium hail]

"Sick leave is at unprecedented levels."

And that is amongst all staff.

As I said before a lot of people have lost desire to go the extra mile, and those that still do just get pushed harder.

Three full day strikes on 18, 19 ,20 July and facilitation dates have been set. Here's hopeing this will do it, we all just want it done.

[ZK-NSJ]

just been announced on the radio today, air nelson pilots will be
staging a 3 day strike over the coming weekend

[Gone Down]

Enjoy your long weekend guys! You Fed's... get back to work!

[Hanz Blix]

Good luck to you all:ok:

Lets just hope Air NZ don't counter act it all by throwing a 777 or something like that on the main trunk and divert so 73s to the regions:=

[cjam]

I want to see a 777 go into Keri Keri :)

[goodspeed]

Go hard boys and girls.

Those at "the hub" aka Satan's lair, are pumping out the media misinformation to discredit you and question your integrity.

I wonder who has more integrity. A group of men and women asking for a fair and reasonable award, OR a CEO who takes a 60%+ payrise and freezes executive pay 4 months later saying "follow me troops!"!!??:ugh:

All the best for some plesant weather and good time spent with the family.

[Split Flap]

I guess it's one way to get a 64 hour weekend! :ok:

One weekend a month that you can be there when your kiddies come home from school and spend the weekend with them is not a tall order. If the company cant afford to give it to them then the place is a basket case anyway.

[6080ft]

I see there are still a few flights operating today, what percentage of air nsn pilots are with the federation?

All the best guys dont back down!

[always inverted]

TV reported about 30 non alpa, does anyone know whats in the feds contract ? do they ?
I herd the other day that the mainline piots are asking for cpi +2% , can anyone confirm, surely if it's good for one...isn't that what everyone should be asking for, or do we just continue to go backwards relaitve to inflation which is tiped to be at 4.8% shortly according to the newspaper in wellington the otherday.
On a side note
What %age of total profit would come from the longhaul ops ?

[kiwilad]

Always inverted, if you are an ALPA member with an up to date email address they just sent out an industrial update. That will answer your questions.

Be sure to tell everyone you know the facts as the reporting so far has been crap to say the least.

Would love for just one journo to ask MR H to provide some evidence to the company claims.:D

That 30 pilots sounds about how many they need to get the two aircraft parked up back in the air and operate a standby system which is not fully reliant on pilots working their days off.:ugh:

All the best to the guys and girls of NZALPA at Air Nelson.

[nike]

Pilots start strike over work demands
8:49AM Friday July 18, 2008
By Jarrod Booker

Air Nelson says its services have continued with minimal disruption this morning despite the start of a three-day strike predicted to affect about 10,000 travellers throughout the country.

The airline says the demands by the pilots from its Air Nelson subsidiary, including more time off, will cost it $8 million a year and will force up the cost of airfares on provincial routes.

But the pilots' union insists the demands are affordable and says Air NZ has forced them into strike action by treating them "with complete disdain" over the past year.

"To suggest that a longer weekend for pilots will spell the end of affordable provincial air travel is just not credible," said New Zealand Air Line Pilots Association (NZALPA) executive director, Rick Mirkin.

The strike, which began at midnight last night and continues until Sunday, leaves only about 20 of 180 pilots still working on Air Nelson's provincial routes.

Air Nelson general manager John Hambleton said today contingency plans had ensured customers were being looked after and there had been only one delay, due to weather.

"There has been a huge amount of organisation of schedules, the re-accommodation and contact of passengers has been a massive exercise and those involved have done an excellent job," Mr Hambleton told NZPA.

Non-union pilots were being utilised for the three day strike and there were still some seats available for customers wanting last minute flights into or out of Nelson.

"They can have every expectation those flights will operate," Mr Hambleton said.

He said the company regretted any impacts on customers caused by the strike but it was "making the best out of a difficult situation".

Air NZ spokesman Bruce Parton said it was a cynical move to strike in one of the busiest travel periods of the year.

It appeared the union did not fully appreciate the "profound impact of sky-rocketing costs of fuel" on airlines.

Mr Parton said an Air Nelson captain already earned on average more than $97,000, and over the past three years, the average salary had increased 32 per cent.

He claimed that on average the pilots worked 31 "duty hours" a week, and the NZALPA demands for more time off would reduce these hours to just 25 a week.



Are you guys on "more than NZD97,000"?

Do you guys do (on average), 31 hours a week?

[Mr Baxter]

As a pilot of Air Nelson I have to finally make my first post on PPRUNE to voice my absolute disgust and disdain for the Air Nelson and Air NZ management.

Couple of little facts here…

One of the reasons the pilots are wanting a pay rise is when the engineers settled their contract, signed the paperwork and shook hands, John Hambleton laughed, yes that’s right laughed at them and said you should have held out for more… because we had more to give you.

I do not earn 97K a year, in fact I earn around 30K LESS than that.

I do not average 30 duty hours a week, in fact I work considerably more than that.

I did not get a 69% pay rise prior to my salary being frozen.

I did not receive my payment for holiday pay even though the High Court told Air NZ to give it to me.

Mr Parton, I DO realise that the inflated fuel prices have a huge affect on the company… perhaps the company would also like to realise that fuel prices affect EVERYBODY, not just companies. Bottom line, if the cost of fuel, food and clothing climb and the price of living goes through the roof, what in the name of great Greek buggary would you EXPECT your staff to demand when the contract comes up for renegotiation? The fact that our claims (of which now fall below current CPI predictions) absolutely shock and infuriate management both at Air Nelson and Air NZ to me clearly shows a severe lack of intelligence amongst the upper brass.

I did not complete a degree, 2 diplomas, a pilots licence and years of experience to be treated like a dumb idiot who’s life is so pitiful and worthless I don’t even deserve a fair and just pay rise and one weekend a month where I can pick my kids up from sport on a Friday and drop them off to school on Monday.

Pilots are having there roster requests reversed, we are being allocated duties that don’t exist and start/finish prior to 9:15am to (in my opinion) illegally lock us out. Certain people within management are dedicating their time to ensuring that pilots families struggle to make ends meat. It is the lowest form of human behaviour I have ever witnessed. Shame on you. Shame on you.

Here’s another fact. When we get what we want, and yes John… we will, There will still be no loyalty. I’m not talking about loyalty to Air Nelson or Air NZ, I am talking about loyalty to one man, John Hambleton. I don’t know of any pilot within ALPA (and even some Feds) who will trust that man again or show him any good will. Yes, these negotiations will end (one day!) and we will all enjoy going back to work in a more pleasant environment doing what we do best and that’s flying aircraft around the skies safely and efficiently… but I can’t help but feel like it won’t be the same. I guess it’s a bit like finding out a convicted paedophile has just moved into your street. You know he’s done the time and been released into the public again… but you just don’t trust the guy.

[mattyj]

What I don't understand is, when a negotiation is taking place and a management group is dicking around (don't laugh Eagle and the rest of AirNZ you'll all find out soon enough) Why doesn't the employee representative just say, "right, our action will continue as usuall but if the rubbish in the media and the dirty tactics don't stop we will increase our demand from 4.8 up to 5.5% and if this isn't resolved by next month..its 6%"

The pilot group is right in this case and the management group are just trying to show the rest of AirNZ that they won't fold easily (with other negotiations just around the corner)

[fly real fast]

Just had a quiet beer with a whole bunch of crew on their "Day off/strike" Seems they need to strike to actually have a weekend to spend with the family. Good on you Air Nelson Pilots sticking together through these times. Stand fast and good things will happen.

Reading in the media and I shake my head in disgust. I would be interested to learn how the company got the average duty hours of 31 a week. Can someone shed any light on this? Every Pilot I know Capt and F/o is working far more than that. Gone are the pilots goodwill. Air Nelson have backed themselves into the corner over a matter which could be settled fair and amicably.

Is it true that all Air Nelson pilots go onto individual contracts after a year of not having a collective agreement? Is the company going to offer pilots commands to come back an break the strike?

I am sure you will get what you rightfully deserve in the end. Good work ALPA and Air Nelson ALPA pilots. You have the support from the mainline guys and gals

[6080ft]

I think the negotiators should organise a meeting with Parton or Fyfe to point out the facts, not just the crap that Hambleton is spinning them!

[1279shp]

A groundie said today that he'd heard a report that some heavy metal was going to be used main trunk this weekend, in order to free up the Little Boings for certain regional 'milk-runs'.:hmm:

If true, it actually makes sense - 1 x 737 = 2 x Q300. :8

Hmmm makes sense - which is why it won't be happening!:p

[Jack Sprat]

I couldn't believe Mr Parton on TV1 news tonight saying that not only do the Air Nelson pilots work the hours mentioned above, but that they all get 100k per year. From the sound of it, a good partner for JH. Neither Air NZ nor TV1 seem to care about the accuracy of the information they spread about. Sadly, the viewers who know nothing about pilots salaries will probably believe it.

[Split Flap]

I would have never belived it if I hadn't seen it for myself on ch1. What a crock.

How do you tell when an Air NZ Manager is lying?

Easy! His lips are moving!

[Gone Down]

Editided as no longer drunk! :}

[conflict alert]

Gone Down

Your's is the first post that has stepped away from the issue to personal attacks on others. Are you black, white, asian, bi, lesibian, gay, have you married a black, white, asian, bi, lesbian, gay....are you a vego, vegan, do you want to fly light twins, work for a 3rd level airline, regional airline, national airline, do you want to be a C cat B cat A cat, drive a ****ter or a wannabe car, do you want to go overseas, work, rest, get the benefit, wear trousers or shorts on a cold day, live in nelson, or tauranga, or rotorua, or auckland or or or............these are CHOICES and that is what each and everyone of us should be entitled to make without criticism or fear of vindication. So what..some pilots are ALPA some arn't, wooptee
f:mad:k. As for piggy backing...thats not their fault, I think you will find that govt legislation dictates that that will happen (employment relations act). After reading your post I can only assume you hold a huge hatred ..I feel sorry for you. There are more important things in life to get stewed up about.
Good luck to the guys and gals out for the weekend, I hope you get what you want, these are difficult times..EACH TO THEIR OWN..

[nike]

Cheers Mr Baxter.

[always inverted]

So how does a 3 odd percent payrise each year equate to 32% over 3 years, did JH work that out ?????
Stand strong boys and girls, did someone get it on record what JH said to the engineers ?? Surely that would go to show just what a pri@k he is. How does the requested increase equate to 8 mil per year.
Why dont they just change their claim to cpi +2% as some other group have been rumored to have asked for, that will make him sit up. I know that it's childish but why not play his game for a while, hell, there cant be mich else to loose.

It is disgusting that a manager can not negotiate a new contract in less than a year, I hope the guys do get what they want in the end thru the next phase of negs.

[always inverted]

Conflict Alert, surely with a post like that you would be a scab, er sorry a Fed pilot or supporter.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Yes Conflict Alert

I agree with your comments in regards to personal attacks. But I hear that there is a couple of Feds who have been slagging off long serving ALPA members.

It is a bit hard to take knowing that these people by law will be entitled to the same deal that ALPA members are fighting so bitterly for.

[mattyj]

So does a Fed pilot (say a Co or a recent Captain) watch the news last night and think "Oh yes, thats true..I am earning $100000pa and I do mostly only do 31 hours per week, so I should be happy with my conditions"

?

[Chocks Away]

It has been very sad to see your mainline 737's assisting management and filling in capacity shortfall from the strike.
Why didn't they stand by your issues?

[always inverted]

I think that the problem with the fed pilots is that they dont have to strike, get paid more to work when the ALPA pilots are striking for a cause that they believe in. :D:D:D
The alpa crews paid the sub's to alpa for the support and do the hard work for the t1.5 claim, the feds just walk in and say thanks for the extra money guys...and at the end of all this the feds will get the same bloody money as the crew who sacrificed the most, surely there is a word for that...:oh::ouch:

Stand strong guys, the conditions that you are asking for wont hurt the company as much as the company say, my hat is off to you all:D:D:D

[waren9]

Chocks Away- reading some of the other posts here suggest that for the most part they do, mate.

I'm sure that if non-notified industrial action by one group in support of another was legal, ALPA would already be onto it.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

From what I understand there is only two legal reasons to strike. They are for bargaining and safety grounds. If the 737 pilots decided not to fly the extra routes this weekend they would be initiating an illegal strike. It was the same when Air Nsn pilots filled in when Mt Cook was working to rule.

[CTOT ON]

When is ALPA going to respond to the bullS:mad:t on the TV and radio news? I saw the ALPA rep on TV3 on Wed but not even a whisper from them all weekend. All the while I have been trying to find my 100k? Still no luck....

[anakid]

The alpa crews paid the sub's to alpa for the support and do the hard work for the t1.5 claim, the feds just walk in and say thanks for the extra money guys.

The sad thing is they dont say thanks or offer to contribute to the cause.

[mattyj]

I have a question;
Have the Feds ever conducted any form of industrial action in their history..ie are they really a union, or just a group of pilots who don't want to be in a union?
Did they participate in the initial negotiation before it broke down?

[myturn]

MattyJ

Are you suggesting that to be a real union you have to use industrial action? Shouldnt that be a last resort? MT

[Marant]

Does anyone remember JH's launch into the industry? I do. He was engaged on contract as a consultant way back in Eagle early days. He had no Aviation background at all. I remember one night over a beer he was back in about 1988/89 how he was justifying the rather large contract fee he was on while the Pilots were trying to negotiate with the Company. He said he needed the money more the pilots because his lifestyle was more expensive, such as living in Auckland at the time and commuting cost etc. His background was supplier of worksite containerised offices at building sites and he went bust! He eventually became Marketing manager for Eagle and clambered his way up the ladder after that.
How many have heard the story of his daughter being caught in a strip club in Nelson in 1995 ( a good show by the way!!). She explained to 4 of us that were there that her dad left her stranded with no money after he heard about her new career and she was just doing a few extra nights to get cash to go home since he wouldn't put her on staff travel anymore. That's the way to bring up your kids, help expose them for what they are!!
Good luck guys, I was with you in 95.

[1279shp]

Hah!!! I had forgotten - I was bloody well based there in 95 and recall the 'exposure' she got! :DThat strippie-joint still there by the way?? Great times 1990's Nelson!:cool:

[distracted cockroach]

CTOT wrote: "When is ALPA going to respond to the bullSt on the TV and radio news? I saw the ALPA rep on TV3 on Wed but not even a whisper from them all weekend. All the while I have been trying to find my 100k? Still no luck...."

Bloody good question, and I suggest you get straight on to your Union rep and ask them!
Companies always seem to get the media on side (remember Paul Holmes telling everyone that Ansett NZ pilots worked 20 hours a week during their lockout?)
Ask questions and call your representatives to account. Remember, YOU are the Union. For God's sake, don't sit by and watch it happen if you think you are getting bad representation, or if you think things could be done better. Make a noise and demand better.....don't ask me how I know.

[puma pants]

Aaaahhh!!! Bubbles Bath House. How could one forget:}

Go strong guys

[Dodgy Boy]

Marant and 1279shp, was also with you that evening, seem to remember it was the end of someone's stag evening (who is now a skipper with an Asian airline). Biggest mistake she made was telling one of our group not to tell anyone she was JH's daughter...........The boys dined out on that one for weeks!!!

[zkjaws]

Sorry if it's already been mentioned, but I haven't been following this thread and thought the following couldn't go without mention.

While surfing the net for news from home (in the UK at the mo) saw an item on ONE NEWS. Reports at the airport getting quotes from passengers complaining that they couldn't get too their appointments or get togethers on time with out travelling a day early or such like.

Then the last interview was a classic - the punter quoted the age old adage "if you have time to spare tavel by air" not grumbling at all. What else would you expect from an ex ATCO (and ALPA member) - I wonder if the TV crew had any idea :ok:

Good one GD

[flysaucer1200]

Few discontented travelers on Tuesday night at AA Domestic. Booked to take the Auckland New Plymouth flight, but airline said the plane had,. ‘mechanical problems, few tried to rebook to fly Auckland to Wellington then back up to New Plymouth, but most chose ( at their own expense ) to stay the night in hotel and fly on Wednesdaydirect to NP

[honchi]

And did the plane not have mechanical problems?? This is happening more and more isn't it? Airlines cancel flights on the basis there's mechanical problems, when in actual fact they're not flying because there's not enough passengers???

[always inverted]

Wouldn't think that they would pull a flight because there is not enough people, maybe crew... Especialy if they have to hotel the pax or find alternative means of transport when it's a "mechanical Issue" weather related is up to the pax, but the company generaly rebook them.

Matty J, the fed pilots dont contribute to the negs at any time because they are on their own contract, which aparently mirrors the alpa one, but wait, havent the feds already signed off on their contract, what did they sign off on???? There will probably be the odd one that is on an individual contract who is still working while the others are "standing up for what they believe in"

[Cpt Link Hog]

Good on you guys for standing up for what I would consider only fair and resonable...well sort of
A f/o or cpt TC's at Air nsn would be fair to say have sliped along way in the past 5 years but just wanted to let you all know that your boss said this.

JH "It will cost the company more to comply with the crew contract request than their strike action will and I have the full support of ANZ on this issue"

[1279shp]

Marant and 1279shp, was also with you that evening, seem to remember it was the end of someone's stag evening (who is now a skipper with an Asian airline).

Bloody small word aint it! :ok:Lost touch with "stag-boy". Asian Capt eh - wonder what their "Bubbles" are like??!!:p

[Airwork2]

Hi guys. As a Fed member I note some (and only some) people have made anti-Fed comments.

The great thing about where we live is our freedom of choice. This includes our right to different industrial representation. Whilst in an ideal world we would be represented by a singular group the reality is people have different views.

I am not an Air Nelson pilot but would ask some people (and it is only some) to please note that whilst we may be Fed that doesn't mean we don't have sympathy for the ALPA Air Nelson cause........we may have chosen a different industrial route, and that therefore requires us to be legally obligated towards our employment duties, but doesn't change our sympathy for their cause.

Cheers.

[27/09]

Airwork2

The great thing about where we live is our freedom of choice. This includes our right to different industrial representation.

That is the beauty of living and a place like NZ, but I do wonder why you made that choice. ALPA may not be perfect but it's a damn sight better than any alternative.


There is a flaw in your argument here but would ask some people (and it is only some) to please note that whilst we may be Fed that doesn't mean we don't have sympathy for the ALPA Air Nelson cause

The Federation was set up by Air New Zealand as a means of splitting ALPA and thus dividing the bargaining power of the pilots. Just the fact that you belong to the Federation no matter your reasons is going to draw the ire of pilots who are fighting for a fair deal.

No matter how much you personally may sympathise with the ALPA cause the very existence of the organisation you belong to takes it so much more difficult for that fair deal to be reached. Add to that the fact that any gains ALPA get from management the Federation pilots also get, (e.g. stat holiday pay) without making any contribution. Is it any wonder some ALPA members think badly of Federation pilots?

I don't think so.

[Split Flap]

Airwork2.

Just a quick question. Would you be happy to give 1.125% of your time and a half payment to ALPA for negotiating it on your behalf?

[Bongo Bus Driver]

For those of you wondering if cancellations at Air Nsn for mechanical reasons are real I offer the following explanation. The aircraft cannot be released on the Minimum Equipment List without a couple of pilots. Just like any other important component if the pilots are broken (sick), worn out (out of duty hours) and there are no replacement parts available (pilots telling Air Nsn to combine sex and travel when asked to work on their days off) then the aircraft has a mechanical problem (the engines wont start) and is grounded.

Air Nsn tries to carry replacement parts (Feds and independents) but at the moment the storeroom is bare because those parts are all being used and are starting to break down and wear out as well.

If the travelling public and Air NZ Management think that the "mechanical problems" will suddenly disappear when a release to service (ALPA CEA) has been signed off then they are sorely mistaken. Only a complete replacement of the the Flight Management System (JH) will fix these issues.

[float flyer]

That has to be one of the most intelligent things I have read on this forum for a very long time, and I couldn't agree with you more!

Well said:ok:

[Airwork2]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your comments........

Yes, ALPA did negotiate the holiday pay issue and the Fed members enjoyed the benefit, but the opposite has also been true in the past (as an example the excellent mainline incentive pay system). Also our contract does not (unlike the ALPA contract) include a clause stating that we get something if ALPA negotiates a better deal. In this case we received the holiday pay as it was a legal court case (won by ALPA and with ALPA's labour, time and effort of course)......

Personally I would (probably like a majority of Fed members) prefer a single union but there are things about ALPA that don't appeal and if they could be sorted I would fully support an amalgamation to a singular union voice. There is no doubt whatsoever that the Air NZ pilot body would be better suited to a single union voice.

Of course these are my views and many will not agree.........as I probably won't agree with them!! But good to hear your points and views!!

Cheers guys.

[always inverted]

I do agree on the Employment Court Ruling as this is a legal requirement to pay T1.5 +the day in lieu and would not natter what union you are in as it would legally need too be paid regardless of your union pref.

Just out of curiosity, if there is a Fed piot reading this, what have you people agreed to as a % increase or are you still waiting for the alpa boys to have theirs signed off.
Im sure the conditions that dont suit the membership of some fed pilots is that they would have to pay x% to alpa to get nothing in return, aparently...and that when you stand up for what you believe in ie: strike, that you loose a days pay with alpa and gain a bonus or whatever as the "others" Yeah that would be something I would want changed too...:ugh:


A CHALLENGE TO THE FED MEMBERS AT AIR NELSON...

If you fed pilots REALLY support the alpa crew then get all the fed pilots at air nsn together and make a donation (would not have to be huge) to help recover the lost wages incurred by the strike, I say this only because if you guys downed tools to, it would be an unauthorised srike and it's not worth going there so you could show your support in the financial sense.
Purely because them standing together makes the place that you work at better in the long run...

[Airwork2]

Hi 'Always Inverted'

To answer your question: Air NZ Mainline Federation contract was finalised, and accepted by the pilot group, @ 6 months ago for a 3% immediate payrise, another 1 % next year (not exactly sure what date) and then re-negotiation next year with a new contract round. Plus some other benefits of a minor nature.

Overall the feeling was a higher % increase would have been preferred but at the vote it was accepted.

Cheers.

[Airwork2]

P.S.....

'Simply Inverted' I have to say your point about Air Nelson Federation pilots making a financial contribution (even if it is small in the big context of the lost wages) is very valid.......not so much as being able to make up the financial shortfall but as an act of support....

Fair point!

[mattyj]

4% over two years is PATHETIC..

..Milk, Cheese, Butter, Petrol, Rents, Chicken, Lamb and Beef have all gone up over twice that in the last year alone!!

[billyt]

It was 3% for 1 year and 1% for 3 months. Contract was for only 15 months. While I agree the 3% was a little light there were other positives as well.

[kiwilad]

Is this for the Air NSN Fed contract?

Airwork 2, what is it that you do not like about NZALPA?

The Fed website mentions "Also - (For a quick estimate at what can be gained, either through a savings programme or quicker payment of mortgage, when comparing Federation fees to NZALPA fees go to www.sorted.co.nz)"

Why the 15month deal? I guess to then tag on the back of the deal the Air NSN ALPA members have fought bloody hard for!!!!!

The Fed website talks about being non-confrontational. Is easy to do this when most deals are done after ALPA negotiations.

[billyt]

My apologies, that was for AirNZ pilots.

[Airwork2]

Hi 'Kiwilad',

To answer your question about 'what I do not like about ALPA'?

It's not that 'I do not like Alpa' but as I have a choice of industrial representation I preferred the Federation presentation compared to the Alpa one when I joined mainline Air NZ......

That is a personal choice and the things I liked may not be what others like obviously....

I won't list what I liked exactly as that is simply my personal preferences and many will obviously disagree (and some agree)......

Cheers.

[27/09]

The Fed website mentions "Also - (For a quick estimate at what can be gained, either through a savings programme or quicker payment of mortgage, when comparing Federation fees to NZALPA fees go to www.sorted.co.nz)"


Some time ago I saw how little the Fed fees were. I wondered how they could provide anything more worthwhile to their members than a card at Christmas. Most social clubs cost more to belong to.

Regarding the Air Nelson negotiations. If a couple of comments I have heard recently are true, JH deserves to be sacked. I wouldn't be happy of I had a manager carrying on like he has done with these negotiations. He has been deliberately obstructive to a successful outcome.

[always inverted]

Yup, my point exactly. My question to airwork 2, I think it was, why would the mainline feds' sign off on a contract that was at least 2% less than the alpa guys are asking for unless it is just to keep management happy till the other contract is signed off (it is nearing the 12 month mark shortly for the alpa guys) and then a couple of months later you guys see what alpa have recieved and then ask for the same as them, nice and easy, no industrial action...:mad:
So basicly the same as Air Nelson then, feds sit back/ accept a crap increase just till the alpa crew sign off on theirs and then you renegotiate your contract at the same rate. Was the Fed set up by the airlines just to devide the work force so as to keep them flying in the times of industrial action/ contract negotiations ? As it seems like they really dont offer anything else...maybe a gimp mask for the xmas party:oh:

My question has not been answered... What increase did the Air Nelson Feds' accept ? My guess is that they dont know but wont admit that as they dont want that known as they will then be known as the s@#bs. If I am proven wrong then I will appologise.
Keep going guys as the end of this surely cant be far away.:D:D:D

[Captain Condom]

Regardless of what the feds agreement is, you are not staying out of this stoush. You, yes you, you scabby b*****rds are working on your days off, and taking holiday then working during that holiday period, in order to undermine the effectiveness of the ALPA strike (and get paid extra and get a day in lieu for working your holiday/days off). You really are the most selfish individuals I have had the misfortune to work with.

Since a number of ALPA pilots at Air Nelson are young people with families, and, with the exception of one person that I know, all you Fed p!£$ks are captains on the top of the scale, or check and training captains, you are directly hurting the young guys in the company. Stay out of the fight. Work your roster and no more. How do you sleep at night?

[fourholes]

Couldn't have said it better myself, sub human springs to mind...........

[always inverted]

Yeah, I give that dumb ass at the top in nsn 2-3 months before getting the boot he so very much deserves...
Air nsn have not aparently had a contract negotiation in the last 10 years that has not ended in industrial action... just a thought, how long has the half wit at the top been there ??
Hed a comment today, can, and if so how long would it take air nelson to get back to how they used to be in the good days- pre him.

[newmatic]

Quite simply, JH needs to go. All good will has gone, as has all/any respect for those at the top of Air NSN. It used to be a great company....but sadly , no more. The resolve of the majority of pilots at Air NSN have had a guts full of everything. Bring on the instrument approaches.....:ugh:

[deadhead]

You guys are dreaming if you think John Hambleton is going to be sacked. He may deserve it, but since when was that a reason for Air NZ to dismiss any of its managers? Even an anonymous top manager, caught in flagrante delicto with a cleaner, managed to have her sacked after being "sentenced" to a weeks' suspension! No, these guys operate to another set of rules than us. Rather than beat ourselves up about it, flapping our gums and beating keyboards, we need to set ourselves another path. One that will get us to the same destination, of course, but in an 'outflanking' way. The full-frontal assaults will never succeed against a billion-dollar company (and its impeccable PR machine) that does not need to adhere to the same set of rules that everyone else does.

Some of John Hambleton's work that I’ve seen reminds me of a 1954 book written by American author Darrell Huff. Entitled How To Lie With Statistics Huff's book is more comedy than anything else, but is an accurate treatise nevertheless on how feeble minds can be swayed dramatically by the most innocuous use of numbers. He shows us how to make any set of numbers mean absolutely anything – even ascribing the opposite meaning to a set of numbers than is already understood – and making that version more believable. We know this today as ‘spin,’ of course, but ‘spin’ is easily dismissed – not so with numbers. It was Benjamin Disraeli that is supposed to have said: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” And surely this is what he meant.

John Hambleton may end up resigning, of course. He may stay, much to everyone’s disgust. He may have a brain explosion (read: aneurysm) and get carried out feet first. But no matter what his method of demise, I imagine that the damage he has done to employer-employee relations will take years to correct. But, once again, AirNZ is not a company that holds such relationships in high importance. Otherwise, John Hambleton would have been sacked long ago. His treatment of the engineers at Air Nelson, and of Rob Fyfe’s treatment of the AirNZ engineers springs to mind.

Now our mainline talks are getting underway. Rest assured that John Hambleton is attempting to show our managers that where Peter O’Regan failed with the Mt Cook guys, he will succeed with the Air Nelson guys. His overinflated ego will not allow him to let this one go. Like a schoolyard bully, he will not stop - at least not of his own accord.

So, how did facilitation go? Anyone?

[myturn]

Its not just the keyboard taking a beating there deadhead!:ok:

[always inverted]

Could the guys/girls at Air Nsn bring in a vote of no confidence, or anyone who is willing slap a personal grievance claim against him for making their days at work far to stresful which has had an impact on their emotive state. If all did it they would surely have to listen as they cant even fob off one of them. He would have a bit of explaining to do then wouldnt he, plus when the media got hold of it and as usual blow it out of all proportion...

NICE !!!!

Surely this shyt fight cant last for much longer...

Has anyone pointed out to Fyfe that he would not have needed to have a wage freeze if JH had signed off the contract, but seeing as he has they could go for another couple of months and use up the funds that were allocated to the top's for their increases...

[always inverted]

Spoken like a true management spy...
If you are new, are you a member of alpa ?
What they have done so far is 90 % of it and shown that management cant bully them into less conditions than they currently have relative to inflation...If you had seen the progress thus far then you would have seen that the stalling has been thru the management NOT via the alpa negotiators.

If you are new to the company then I suggest that you talk to one of your negotiators or alpa for copies of the work done so far and to say that they have done nothing is pretty one-eyed and you would want to rethink that comment before you get put in your place by the alpa crews that you may fly with.
Again tho, the tone of your post smells of a non alpa member but even they know what has been done so I come back to the management sniffing and trying to get the shyt up the guys from another angle. If I am wrong then I am sorry.

[GoDirect]

They will use their mighty clobbering machine in any way possible to try and dilute your actions. STICK WITH IT. The previous industrial dispute/work to rule of Mt Cook crew took approximately a year or so to resolve due to the obstinate nature of management. The cash that was invested into that to just try and break the guys was obscene, they couldn't see the wood for the trees. But as a result of putting in the hard yards and sticking with it day in and day out, it was eventually resolved to a reasonable level of satisfaction to the crews. But it would not have been if they hadn't have hung on in there for the whole time. It will take time, but keep up a good resolve no matter what - and tell yourselves that regardless of how long this takes you are going to do it - and with the passage of time you will get even stronger. Hope it's resolved soon for you all. :)

[diseasel]

Spoken like a true management spy...
Good thinking 99. Weed the buggers out.

[Split Flap]

Yes it will work, it's the ways it's always worked since adam was a cowboy.

If you don't have any faith in the ALPA guys then perhaps you won't mind going into John's office and negotiating your own contract? He will laugh at you.
The conditions you enjoy today in your new job have been hard fought for by those that have gone before you. It is now up to you to preserve and enhance the conditions for those that will come behind you, got any mates in GA?
Your negotiators have a tough job and are only doing what you, and your fellow workmates have asked them to negotiate on your behalf, and it's not a big ask by the way.
Give your negotiators your support and encouragement, and talk to them if there is something you are not happy with.
Above all else, don't be a softc0ck! :)

[always inverted]

Split Flap I fully agree with what you said.


Okay, as I said previously, if you are not in management then I would appologise...Sorry. :)

The pay that you are on now is better than it used to be (at Air NSN), yes ?? So that would mean that you are experiencing the benifits of a CEA ,as fought hard for by the alpa crew negotiators...

You still say what has it done so far ?

If it was up to management them you would probably be paid similar to the guys over at Eagle- or less. :uhoh:

So are you standing strong with the alpa guys fighting for YOU to have better conditions and pay over the next couple of years or are you a SCAB that is sitting on their arse and waiting for the alpa guys to have their contract signed off and then walk in and have the same conditions as them while contributing NOTHING to the cause. Also getting extra pay to work while the guys are striking. :mad::mad:
Either way you ARE BENIFITING from the alpa negotiations, yes ???:ugh:


Although, if you feel that you can contribute, get up off you arse and offer to help in any way possible.

[Variable_pitch]

The above post reads like a schoolyard bully, you're a few chapters behind with the "how to win friends and influence people ". Here's hoping the ALPA representatives in this case have a bit more diplomacy skills than yourself.

[always inverted]

Spoken like a true @#$#%.

[reallyhigh]

Hey Q3000121

How deep is your head berried in the sand? Or is it up your- you know what. If you have been here a year and I assume you know how to read-don’t you!!! At an age of 41 I hope so. I am sure you know exactly what has been going on through some very very good correspondence from OUR ALPA reps. To say you are in the dark is an indictment on your self not our hard working negotiators.

As for working your tail off to get here LOL. Hell you must be the first person to have to do that. Everybody else just cruised into it –NOT. You need to break out of the mentality that you are prepared to do the job for nothing. You probably did plenty of that in your GA days.
To answer your question where has it got us? FACILITATION. Oh isn’t that happening today& tomorrow? Yes it is. Now that is a hugely positive step forward, if you are genuine in your posts wouldn’t you wait to see the outcome of that before raising your concerns???? I hope you apply far better logic to problem solving when flying. If not I am truly concerned for you and any body that flies with you.

[Pool Boy]

Hmmm, Q300, just remember if it was not for alpa you would be earning about half of your current salary ( just ask any former origin F/O what it was like to have individual contracts ). Alpa is not perfect but thanks to the efforts of many, you can enjoy a half decent way of life at Air Nelson.

[27/09]

Looks like someone (Q300) had second thoughts and deleted their post. Wonder why?

[Bombay]

Keep up the fight guys.

I heard something the other day about an Air NSN pilot who resigned from ALPA a couple of weeks ago in the middle of all of this. Is that person incredibly brave, incredibly stupid or incredibly weak? All three, I think.

Is the management making back-hand offers to people they perceive to be "on the fence" in the hope they'll resign from the union?

Like I said, keep up the fight guys and stick together. A couple of cliches spring to mind - short term pain, long term gain etc. Great job so far. Can't be long now. Stay strong. Kia kaha bro.

Bombay

[Bombay]

Pool Boy,

if it was not for alpa you would be earning about half of your current salary ( just ask any former origin F/O what it was like to have individual contracts ).

Agreed. Individual contracts were some (most) of the reason why the Origin FOs got paid ****e and the Captains were paid reasonably (I say that hesitantly) for the size of the aeroplane. No collective approach/strength.

Of course, it was obviously a tactic to encourage pilots to hang around and since Origin was basically an entry-level regional carrier, it worked for the most part.

As far as NZ airlines are concerned, individual contracts are for fools. Anyone who thinks they can do better than a CEA is sadly mistaken.

Of course, ALPA does a lot of good work other than just CEA negotiations! These union/non-union arguements tend to forget that fact. That measly percentage of our pay does a lot more than just pay for negotiating strength.

Bombay

[myturn]

Bombay

Could you fill us all in on all the good work ALPA does. Other than contract negs, the school yard bully rubbish in the previous posts and of course helping those old timers at the top feather their nests - what exactly do they do? MT

[kangaroota]

Well, for a start they help s%@bs get their holiday pay entitlements:hmm:

[27/09]

the school yard bully rubbish in the previous posts and of course helping those old timers at the top feather their nests

MT

Care to expand?

I would have thought that contract negotiations on it's own was probably important enough.

Some of the other valuable services they provide are a bit like insurance. You hope you never need it but are very grateful to be able avail yourself of the help and support if you ever need it.

Then there's the MBF and the salary continuance schemes that they arrange, sure you pay to belong to these but you get something at a price you probably couldn't get elsewhere.

There needs to some organisation which can provide advocacy for pilots, something that we cannot do as individuals. ALPA may not be perfect and you may not agree with all the things they say or do, but there isn't anyone else there to provide a collective view point for pilots.

So I really wonder what the point of your post was. :(